There are a lot of parallels between Soeharto’s way of running the country with the leaders of our own. Both have no respect for public opinions, institutions and judiciary being eroded, silence of dissents (rather than addressing the real issues), they forgot that they are “wakil rakyat”, police being used as tools to perpetuate their legacies etc… too many to0 various ….
Why up to 4 representatives from M’sian Govt? I dont know!
First, my condolence for his soul. My prayers are that his soul finds peace in the journey in eternity. But how will he be remembered? This is one way he will be remembered, a passage I took from Wikipedia on his wealth accumulation, that appeared under sutitle ‘Investigations of Wealth’.
Investigations of wealth
” In May 1999, a Time Asia estimated Suharto’s family fortune at US$15 billion in cash, shares, corporate assets, real estate, jewelry and fine art. Of this, US$9 billion is reported to have been deposited in an Austrian bank. The family is said to control about 36,000 km² of real estate in Indonesia, including 100,000 m² of prime office space in Jakarta and nearly 40 percent of the land in East Timor. Over US$73 billion is said to have passed through the family’s hands during Suharto’s 32-year rule.
On May 29, 2000, Suharto was placed under house arrest when Indonesian authorities began to investigate the corruption during his regime. In July 2000, it was announced that he was to be accused of embezzling US$571 million of government donations to one of a number of foundations under his control and then using the money to finance family investments. But in September court-appointed doctors announced that he could not stand trial because of his declining health. State prosecutors tried again in 2002 but then doctors cited an unspecified brain disease.
According to Transparency International, Suharto embezzled more money than any other world leader in history with the estimated US $15–35 billion embezzlement during his 32 years rule.”
May his soul finds peace while contemplating on his past activities. Whether or he was judged while he was alive, I’m certain that his karma is not transferable and strictly goes into his personal account.
“No single American action in the period after 1945,” wrote the historian Gabriel Kolko, “was as bloodthirsty as its role in Indonesia, for it tried to initiate the massacre.” He was referring to Suharto’s seizure of power in 1965-6, which caused the violent deaths of up to a million people. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2248012,00.html
What Suharto did to indonesia as President, Samy is doing the same to the Indian Malaysians. The tactic in which Suharto rose to absolute power was replicated by Samy. And UMNO and MCA are learning fast. Notice the emergence of Pekida and Mat Rempit. Why do you think Nalla and Pandithan had to “kow-tow” to Samy when they were once sworn enemies. Why do you think Subra had to silently wriggle into obscurity.
AFP | Jan 28, 08 11:11am
Mahathir, a contemporary of Suharto during their long terms in power, says that accounts the former Indonesian leader killed some 500,000 people after taking power in 1965 were “absolute nonsense”.
He gave Indonesia stability and growth but he also gave himself the reward for giving Indonesia stability and growth, along the way many Indonesians also perished because the were against the dictator ruling. Of course many of our Asean leaders will be singing praises about Suharto for he has already past, but the reason of they concur to Suharto’s authoritarianism regime is that many Asean countries leaders are still practising authoritarianism rules, giving Suharto the credits for leading Indonesia out of the abyss in one way or another justify their own authoritarian actions in their respective country. What we may have largely ignored here is that Indonesia may have been better if it was not Suharto that ruled for 32 years, the same goes with country like Malaysia. I’ll be expecting Badawi and UMNO singing praises for Mahathir in his grave.
If you really know Indonesia’s records under Suharto’s administration, you wouldn’t say such thing. A tyrant would admire a tryant and there are countless of silent neo-Nazis’ in this planet.
His ending are rather ‘sad’ as they put him under machines to keep him there….
It’s always the ending part that sadden him most …
So near ..yet so far…
He’s finally journey on now ……
Paying the price a t the last hours of his living life .. he knew the kind of hardship someone could feel during his regime.
God Bless his soul.
Thought “Father of Indonesia” is Sukarno or Hatta. This Suharto is “Father of Indonesian Corruption”.
If he want Indonesian to forgive him, can his family forget his US$ billions and donate say 80% of their wealth to Indonesia Govt.
In a way, Suharto got off easy. Half-hearted attempts to charge him and his children, and now he has a state burial plus a week’s mourning.
Mahathir should not be allowed to get off this easy. I don’t mind the billions that are “lost” through corruption, or cronyism or pure stupidity, but I cannot forgive the corruption of the Judiciary and the various agencies that are supposed to enforce the law. Money we can make back, but the corruption of the very institutions that protect our rights and civil liberties will not be easy to reverse. May God grant Mahathir a much longer life than Suharto so that Mahathir can see the mess he has wrought on to his own country.
History will remember him for his atrocities rather then the stability that he brought to his nation……..and for giving him a Presidential pardon…Bambang Susilo Yudhiano will be seen as representative of the Indonesian people’s humility in forgiving a corrupt despot rather then trying to exact a fruitless revenge….the lesson to remember is every man and woman on earth must never let a despot or corruption colour their way of life….for this will only lead to greater evil down the road……….Malaysians must learn never to standby and watch when an injustice is done…..lest we create another Suharto……
There are two things in particular we need to remember about the sad period of Suharto’s rule:
The first is that Suharto would NEVER have been able to get away with what he did had he, like Sukarno, opted to remain neutral during the Cold War or more radically opted to side with the Soviet Bloc. Suharto was saved from international condemnation, mainly from the West, due to his alignment with the USA. This demonstrates the extent to which so many third world dictators depended (and still depend on) external support. Hence Malaysia’s own ideological orientation needs to be watched closely. When countries like Malaysia and Pakistan are dubbed as ‘progressive Islamic states’ by none other than Washington, this shows that they have come under the American fold. Hence the fact that Musharraf was allowed to get away with so much over the past few years.
The second factor is the complicity of other ASEAN countries in propping up Suharto’s military regime and how ASEAN governments turned a blind eye to the brutality of the Indonesian army during episodes like the annexation of East Timor. Thus while it is true that Suharto was guilty of many human rights abuses, the governments of ASEAN were likewise guilty of turning the other way and preventing information about such episodes like the invasion of Timor to reach their own populations.
All these signs point to the dangers of authoritarianism in our midst, and we have much to learn from the mistakes of the Suharto era, lest we make the same mistakes and allow another dictator to come to power in ASEAN, like Thaksin in Thailand or the generals who rule Burma today.
Today at 11: 44.53 (4 hours ago)
From the Man Who Cannot Remember:
AFP | Jan 28, 08 11:11am
Mahathir, a contemporary of Suharto during their long terms in power, says that accounts the former Indonesian leader killed some 500,000 people after taking power in 1965 were “absolute nonsenseâ€///
Ha, ha, ha – good one. He cannot remember things from 4/5 years ago, but he is so absolutely sure about details from 42 years ago.
S.uch a man – an officer and a gentleman
U.nder-appreciated and under-honoured
H.arto, Pak, we are going to miss you
A.s sala’amu alaikum
R.est in peace
T.ake care
O.mitofu
P/S – guys, yes, I am aware of the atrocities. I accept that the good he has broght to Indonesia cannot atone for the bad. But the man has passed on – let history be the judge…
If this suharto is so great, then there should not be so many Indonesia unskill labourers / maids in Msia or Mid East countries or elsewhere. Rupiah also should be worth much more!
Perhaps Msian should thank him for providing cheap labourers / maids to Msia!
We can talk about the man who is now gone. I think it is better to talk about those who plundered and abused like him but are still around. For information, Suharto did not even give Indonesia stability. One just has to look at Indonesia in 1997/98 after more than three decades under his rule. There was no sustainability and there was no institution building. Now, there are many like him across Asia. What are we waiting for? Are we still showing these people lots of reverence and fear? Are we still waiting for them to live boldly and proudly till they die naturally, and with the best of medical care in the process?
It is difficult to pass judgement on Suharto for he came to power on the back of the crushing of the Communist uprising and I think most of the people who died were from that category.
If we compare Malaysia and Indonesia, geographically we are vastly different. Malaysia contains 2 major regions – East and West Malaysia whereas Indonesia is an archipelago with thousands of islands stretching over a vast area.
We also had different colonial pasts and I think the British institutions were superior to the Dutch and independence was managed better.
Suharto had both good and bad points – he began the modernisation of Indonesia but in later years the temptation was too great – there was too much wealth.
The courts there should determine if the family’s wealth was ill-gotten – if so there should be a proper reckoning. Stealing the wealth of a nation should never be condoned.
Finally it seems that Indonesia appears to be ahead of Malaysia in the public accountabiliy area. Citizens there are more prepared to vote for change.
There are two things in particular we need to remember about the sad period of Suharto’s rule:
The first is that Suharto would NEVER have been able to get away with what he did had he, like Sukarno, opted to remain neutral during the Cold War or more radically opted to side with the Soviet Bloc. Suharto was saved from international condemnation, mainly from the West, due to his alignment with the USA. This demonstrates the extent to which so many third world dictators depended (and still depend on) external support. Hence Malaysia’s own ideological orientation needs to be watched closely. When countries like Malaysia and Pakistan are dubbed as ‘progressive Islamic states’ by none other than Washington, this shows that they have come under the American fold. Hence the fact that Musharraf was allowed to get away with so much over the past few years.
The second factor is the complicity of other ASEAN countries in propping up Suharto’s military regime and how ASEAN governments turned a blind eye to the brutality of the Indonesian army during episodes like the annexation of East Timor. Thus while it is true that Suharto was guilty of many human rights abuses, the governments of ASEAN were likewise guilty of turning the other way and preventing information about such episodes like the invasion of Timor to reach their own populations.
All these signs point to the dangers of authoritarianism in our midst, and we have much to learn from the mistakes of the Suharto era, lest we make the same mistakes and allow another dictator to come to power in ASEAN, like Thaksin in Thailand or the generals who rule Burma today.
I don’t mind the billions that are “lost†through corruption, or cronyism or pure stupidity, but I cannot forgive the corruption of the Judiciary and the various agencies that are supposed to enforce the law. Money we can make back, but the corruption of the very institutions that protect our rights and civil liberties will not be easy to reverse. Godfather
Godfather, well said, well said. We are fearful of these tyrants when they were in power. When they have relinquished their power we continue to show reverence as if they are great statesmen. We may want to ask why the old tyrants can continue to live boldly and proudly during their twilight years despite the disservice they have committed. Very simple I think. Those in the present regime are behaving exactly like those in the past. So they must take of the old, so that when their turn comes, the new regime will take care of them. Can’t we see they are institutionalising protection of tyrants? This is happening everywhere. We rakyat are suckers as always.
I refer to your remarks with regards to Suharto. Allow me to express views that some indonesian workers in malaysia had on Suharto.
According to them, despite whatever said about Suharto, he did deliver. Indonesians generally are not rich. But they feel sense of stability during his era.
Many are willing to forgive him. As one Indonesian said ” Yang lepas itu lepas. Setiap manusia ada kelemahannya.”. I am not trying to absolve his mistakes. Quite a number of them. But at the same time , nobody can deny that he also delivered.
As for the Citizens there are considered “progressive” simply for voting to change, it is not as simple as that. The reason why BN still manages to win election after election is very simply. It does deliver, albeit its weaknesses.
As for Farish Noor, I am afraid you are too critical of your own country. Surely, you can understand difference between Pakistan and Malaysia. The former in turmoil with politicians at each other throats, not to mention kow towing to White House. The latter is not in the same league.
Considering that Indonesians address their men as “Bapa” this one did not father anything.
I was surprised. No wonder Indonesians deserved to be tortured by him, and he did not end up like Saddam
There are a lot of parallels between Soeharto’s way of running the country with the leaders of our own. Both have no respect for public opinions, institutions and judiciary being eroded, silence of dissents (rather than addressing the real issues), they forgot that they are “wakil rakyat”, police being used as tools to perpetuate their legacies etc… too many to0 various ….
Why up to 4 representatives from M’sian Govt? I dont know!
Why up to 4 representatives from M’sian Govt? – izrafeil
`Cos many of them will be voting in the next GE.
First, my condolence for his soul. My prayers are that his soul finds peace in the journey in eternity. But how will he be remembered? This is one way he will be remembered, a passage I took from Wikipedia on his wealth accumulation, that appeared under sutitle ‘Investigations of Wealth’.
Investigations of wealth
” In May 1999, a Time Asia estimated Suharto’s family fortune at US$15 billion in cash, shares, corporate assets, real estate, jewelry and fine art. Of this, US$9 billion is reported to have been deposited in an Austrian bank. The family is said to control about 36,000 km² of real estate in Indonesia, including 100,000 m² of prime office space in Jakarta and nearly 40 percent of the land in East Timor. Over US$73 billion is said to have passed through the family’s hands during Suharto’s 32-year rule.
On May 29, 2000, Suharto was placed under house arrest when Indonesian authorities began to investigate the corruption during his regime. In July 2000, it was announced that he was to be accused of embezzling US$571 million of government donations to one of a number of foundations under his control and then using the money to finance family investments. But in September court-appointed doctors announced that he could not stand trial because of his declining health. State prosecutors tried again in 2002 but then doctors cited an unspecified brain disease.
According to Transparency International, Suharto embezzled more money than any other world leader in history with the estimated US $15–35 billion embezzlement during his 32 years rule.”
May his soul finds peace while contemplating on his past activities. Whether or he was judged while he was alive, I’m certain that his karma is not transferable and strictly goes into his personal account.
“No single American action in the period after 1945,” wrote the historian Gabriel Kolko, “was as bloodthirsty as its role in Indonesia, for it tried to initiate the massacre.” He was referring to Suharto’s seizure of power in 1965-6, which caused the violent deaths of up to a million people.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2248012,00.html
What Suharto did to indonesia as President, Samy is doing the same to the Indian Malaysians. The tactic in which Suharto rose to absolute power was replicated by Samy. And UMNO and MCA are learning fast. Notice the emergence of Pekida and Mat Rempit. Why do you think Nalla and Pandithan had to “kow-tow” to Samy when they were once sworn enemies. Why do you think Subra had to silently wriggle into obscurity.
May GOD bless him…
Just as God blessed Hitler……..
From the Man Who Cannot Remember:
AFP | Jan 28, 08 11:11am
Mahathir, a contemporary of Suharto during their long terms in power, says that accounts the former Indonesian leader killed some 500,000 people after taking power in 1965 were “absolute nonsense”.
He gave Indonesia stability and growth but he also gave himself the reward for giving Indonesia stability and growth, along the way many Indonesians also perished because the were against the dictator ruling. Of course many of our Asean leaders will be singing praises about Suharto for he has already past, but the reason of they concur to Suharto’s authoritarianism regime is that many Asean countries leaders are still practising authoritarianism rules, giving Suharto the credits for leading Indonesia out of the abyss in one way or another justify their own authoritarian actions in their respective country. What we may have largely ignored here is that Indonesia may have been better if it was not Suharto that ruled for 32 years, the same goes with country like Malaysia. I’ll be expecting Badawi and UMNO singing praises for Mahathir in his grave.
“May God bless him”
If you really know Indonesia’s records under Suharto’s administration, you wouldn’t say such thing. A tyrant would admire a tryant and there are countless of silent neo-Nazis’ in this planet.
Mahathir said —read malaysiakini
http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/77496
I would never vote for any political party if anyone pays any respect to such “beast”.
His ending are rather ‘sad’ as they put him under machines to keep him there….
It’s always the ending part that sadden him most …
So near ..yet so far…
He’s finally journey on now ……
Paying the price a t the last hours of his living life .. he knew the kind of hardship someone could feel during his regime.
God Bless his soul.
His daughter asks the people to forgive him.
But all of Suharto’s family members are US$ billionaires. Where did their wealth come from?
They keep saying `God bless his soul` etc.
I think Satan will be very miffed at the very idea as he intends to keep a tight grip on it.
His daughter asks the people to forgive him— Can Hitler expect the Jews he murdered to forgive him too?
Thought “Father of Indonesia” is Sukarno or Hatta. This Suharto is “Father of Indonesian Corruption”.
If he want Indonesian to forgive him, can his family forget his US$ billions and donate say 80% of their wealth to Indonesia Govt.
In a way, Suharto got off easy. Half-hearted attempts to charge him and his children, and now he has a state burial plus a week’s mourning.
Mahathir should not be allowed to get off this easy. I don’t mind the billions that are “lost” through corruption, or cronyism or pure stupidity, but I cannot forgive the corruption of the Judiciary and the various agencies that are supposed to enforce the law. Money we can make back, but the corruption of the very institutions that protect our rights and civil liberties will not be easy to reverse. May God grant Mahathir a much longer life than Suharto so that Mahathir can see the mess he has wrought on to his own country.
History will remember him for his atrocities rather then the stability that he brought to his nation……..and for giving him a Presidential pardon…Bambang Susilo Yudhiano will be seen as representative of the Indonesian people’s humility in forgiving a corrupt despot rather then trying to exact a fruitless revenge….the lesson to remember is every man and woman on earth must never let a despot or corruption colour their way of life….for this will only lead to greater evil down the road……….Malaysians must learn never to standby and watch when an injustice is done…..lest we create another Suharto……
# Tickler Says:
Today at 13: 21.23 (1 hour ago)
They keep saying `God bless his soul` etc.
I think Satan will be very miffed at the very idea as he intends to keep a tight grip on it.
Tickler, I was thinking of that as well. Good point.
There are two things in particular we need to remember about the sad period of Suharto’s rule:
The first is that Suharto would NEVER have been able to get away with what he did had he, like Sukarno, opted to remain neutral during the Cold War or more radically opted to side with the Soviet Bloc. Suharto was saved from international condemnation, mainly from the West, due to his alignment with the USA. This demonstrates the extent to which so many third world dictators depended (and still depend on) external support. Hence Malaysia’s own ideological orientation needs to be watched closely. When countries like Malaysia and Pakistan are dubbed as ‘progressive Islamic states’ by none other than Washington, this shows that they have come under the American fold. Hence the fact that Musharraf was allowed to get away with so much over the past few years.
The second factor is the complicity of other ASEAN countries in propping up Suharto’s military regime and how ASEAN governments turned a blind eye to the brutality of the Indonesian army during episodes like the annexation of East Timor. Thus while it is true that Suharto was guilty of many human rights abuses, the governments of ASEAN were likewise guilty of turning the other way and preventing information about such episodes like the invasion of Timor to reach their own populations.
All these signs point to the dangers of authoritarianism in our midst, and we have much to learn from the mistakes of the Suharto era, lest we make the same mistakes and allow another dictator to come to power in ASEAN, like Thaksin in Thailand or the generals who rule Burma today.
/// Tickler Says:
Today at 11: 44.53 (4 hours ago)
From the Man Who Cannot Remember:
AFP | Jan 28, 08 11:11am
Mahathir, a contemporary of Suharto during their long terms in power, says that accounts the former Indonesian leader killed some 500,000 people after taking power in 1965 were “absolute nonsenseâ€///
Ha, ha, ha – good one. He cannot remember things from 4/5 years ago, but he is so absolutely sure about details from 42 years ago.
“Mahathir should not be allowed to get off this easy….†Godfather
———————————————
Mahathir has found a loophole.
When his creator asks him “What has you done to the Judiciary?â€
His answer will be: I cannot remember.
Mahathir believes his god is as gullible as the RCI.
S.uch a man – an officer and a gentleman
U.nder-appreciated and under-honoured
H.arto, Pak, we are going to miss you
A.s sala’amu alaikum
R.est in peace
T.ake care
O.mitofu
P/S – guys, yes, I am aware of the atrocities. I accept that the good he has broght to Indonesia cannot atone for the bad. But the man has passed on – let history be the judge…
If this suharto is so great, then there should not be so many Indonesia unskill labourers / maids in Msia or Mid East countries or elsewhere. Rupiah also should be worth much more!
Perhaps Msian should thank him for providing cheap labourers / maids to Msia!
We can talk about the man who is now gone. I think it is better to talk about those who plundered and abused like him but are still around. For information, Suharto did not even give Indonesia stability. One just has to look at Indonesia in 1997/98 after more than three decades under his rule. There was no sustainability and there was no institution building. Now, there are many like him across Asia. What are we waiting for? Are we still showing these people lots of reverence and fear? Are we still waiting for them to live boldly and proudly till they die naturally, and with the best of medical care in the process?
It is difficult to pass judgement on Suharto for he came to power on the back of the crushing of the Communist uprising and I think most of the people who died were from that category.
If we compare Malaysia and Indonesia, geographically we are vastly different. Malaysia contains 2 major regions – East and West Malaysia whereas Indonesia is an archipelago with thousands of islands stretching over a vast area.
We also had different colonial pasts and I think the British institutions were superior to the Dutch and independence was managed better.
Suharto had both good and bad points – he began the modernisation of Indonesia but in later years the temptation was too great – there was too much wealth.
The courts there should determine if the family’s wealth was ill-gotten – if so there should be a proper reckoning. Stealing the wealth of a nation should never be condoned.
Finally it seems that Indonesia appears to be ahead of Malaysia in the public accountabiliy area. Citizens there are more prepared to vote for change.
There are two things in particular we need to remember about the sad period of Suharto’s rule:
The first is that Suharto would NEVER have been able to get away with what he did had he, like Sukarno, opted to remain neutral during the Cold War or more radically opted to side with the Soviet Bloc. Suharto was saved from international condemnation, mainly from the West, due to his alignment with the USA. This demonstrates the extent to which so many third world dictators depended (and still depend on) external support. Hence Malaysia’s own ideological orientation needs to be watched closely. When countries like Malaysia and Pakistan are dubbed as ‘progressive Islamic states’ by none other than Washington, this shows that they have come under the American fold. Hence the fact that Musharraf was allowed to get away with so much over the past few years.
The second factor is the complicity of other ASEAN countries in propping up Suharto’s military regime and how ASEAN governments turned a blind eye to the brutality of the Indonesian army during episodes like the annexation of East Timor. Thus while it is true that Suharto was guilty of many human rights abuses, the governments of ASEAN were likewise guilty of turning the other way and preventing information about such episodes like the invasion of Timor to reach their own populations.
All these signs point to the dangers of authoritarianism in our midst, and we have much to learn from the mistakes of the Suharto era, lest we make the same mistakes and allow another dictator to come to power in ASEAN, like Thaksin in Thailand or the generals who rule Burma today.
I don’t mind the billions that are “lost†through corruption, or cronyism or pure stupidity, but I cannot forgive the corruption of the Judiciary and the various agencies that are supposed to enforce the law. Money we can make back, but the corruption of the very institutions that protect our rights and civil liberties will not be easy to reverse. Godfather
Godfather, well said, well said. We are fearful of these tyrants when they were in power. When they have relinquished their power we continue to show reverence as if they are great statesmen. We may want to ask why the old tyrants can continue to live boldly and proudly during their twilight years despite the disservice they have committed. Very simple I think. Those in the present regime are behaving exactly like those in the past. So they must take of the old, so that when their turn comes, the new regime will take care of them. Can’t we see they are institutionalising protection of tyrants? This is happening everywhere. We rakyat are suckers as always.
Dear Hj angus,
I refer to your remarks with regards to Suharto. Allow me to express views that some indonesian workers in malaysia had on Suharto.
According to them, despite whatever said about Suharto, he did deliver. Indonesians generally are not rich. But they feel sense of stability during his era.
Many are willing to forgive him. As one Indonesian said ” Yang lepas itu lepas. Setiap manusia ada kelemahannya.”. I am not trying to absolve his mistakes. Quite a number of them. But at the same time , nobody can deny that he also delivered.
As for the Citizens there are considered “progressive” simply for voting to change, it is not as simple as that. The reason why BN still manages to win election after election is very simply. It does deliver, albeit its weaknesses.
As for Farish Noor, I am afraid you are too critical of your own country. Surely, you can understand difference between Pakistan and Malaysia. The former in turmoil with politicians at each other throats, not to mention kow towing to White House. The latter is not in the same league.