Posted on by Kit

ISA detention of Hindraf five most deplorable

The invocation of the Internal Security Act (ISA) to arrest five Hindraf leaders is most deplorable and marks another violation of the pledge by the Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi to promote democracy, uphold human rights and defend the rule of law.

This is because the infamous detention-without-trial Internal Security Act is the very antithesis of the rule of law.

The five detained under the ISA are P. Uthayakumar, M Manoharan, R Kenghadharan, V Ganabatirau and T Vasanthakumar.

If the government has clear and convincing evidence that the five had committed grave offences, they should be charged in court allowing them an open trial and an opportunity to defend themselves instead of being incarcerated under a regime where proof is not necessary at all.

The return of the ISA is another regression of Malaysia to the dark era of human rights violations which can only tarnish the country’s international reputation and image.

448 Replies to “ISA detention of Hindraf five most deplorable”

  1. AMK Mengutuk Sekeras-kerasnya Penahanan Pimpinan Hindraf Di Bawah Akta Zalim ISA
    KeADILan

    Kuala Lumpur, 13 Disember – Angkatan Muda KeADILan Malaysia (AMK) mengutuk sekeras-kerasnya penahanan 5 pimpinan Hindraf di bawah akta zalim, Akta Keselamatan Dalam Negeri (ISA) pada awal tengahari tadi.

    Inilah yang disampaikan oleh Shamsul Iskandar Mohd Akin, Ketua AMK, dalam kenyataan media yang diperoleh SuaraKeadilan.com hari ini.

    Menurut Shamsul, mereka yang ditahan ialah P Uthayakumar, M Manoharan, R Kenghadharan, V Ganabatirau dan T Vasanthakumar.

    Pada hemat Shamsul, penahanan ini yang bersifat politik memberikan gambaran bahawa kerajaan seolah-olah sudah tidak mempunyai jalan lain untuk menyelesaikan permasalahan yang membabitkan kaum India.

    “Justeru, AMK yakin dan percaya akta zalim ISA digunakan untuk menutupi kegagalan pimpinan kerajaan BN selama ini,” kata Shamsul lagi.

    Shamsul berpendapat bahawa dalam keadaan ada di antara mereka masih berada di dalam perbicaraan mahkamah, adalah lebih wajar mereka dibicarakan di mahkamah terbuka berbanding ditahan di bawah akta zalim ISA.

    Shamsul menegaskan sekali lagi bahawa penggunaan ISA adalah jelas bertentangan dengan prinsip hak asasi manusia apabila penahanan tanpa perbicaraan dibenarkan berlaku.

    “Malah, adalah amat memalukan Malaysia setelah 50 tahun merdeka dan berbangga dengan amalan demokrasi masih lagi terjajah dengan akta drakonian yang ditentang secara mutlak oleh kesemua badan hak asasi manusia seluruh dunia,” tegas Shamsul lagi.

    Shamsul juga berkata yang mengulangi propaganda bahawa pimpinan Hindraf mempunyai kaitan dengan jaringan pengganas mengingatkan rakyat tentang propaganda sama yang dimainkan oleh kerajaan BN sebelum melakukan tangkapan terhadap pimpinan KeADILan di bawah akta zalim ISA pada tahun 2001 yang lalu.

    Tegas Shamsul, perbezaan pendapat tidak wajar dijadikan sebab seseorang itu boleh dicabuli hak asasinya. malah menjadi tanggungjawab kerajaan untuk meleraikan kekusutan dengan penuh hikmah dan bijaksana.

    Kata Shamsul lagi, ternyata, tindakan menggunakan ISA ini merupakan tindakan terdesak dan bankrap idea politik.

    “AMK mendesak supaya kesemua tahanan dibebaskan dengan segera.”

    admin @ December 13, 2007

  2. No, no, no Pak Lah.

    It must be proven to the public convincingly that road chosen by them is wrong in our community. It is true, there are many poor Indians and others as well. The poverty issue must be addressed.

    To jail them, will galvanise their followers. In two years they will emerge as Nelson Mandelas of Malaysia. (Whether you believe it or not.)

    This is not the time to use an iron fist. It is easier to break a vase than to make one.

  4. I say it again. Indians must have pride. Deliver your votes to the opposition. After all you are at the lowest ebb already. whether Samy Vellu wins or not makes no diference to your quality of life.
    I would vote for opposition, be it DAP, PAS or Keadilan. At least these people can check the excessof the government which is running out of control.

    At this very moment, my sincere prayers go to those heroes who are detained. May God protect them from evil and harms way!

  6. To me, it seems like the government is trying to paint the Hindraf as the bad guy, to the extent saying that they are terrorist.

    There’s one thing that disappoints me. If someone reported to the police saying that Hindraf has links to a terrorist group, shouldn’t the government conduct investigations first to prove this allegation?

    It seems so biased that those supporting Hindraf are punished so severely to the extend of persecuting 31 people of attempt of murder.

    Is Hindraf an enemy of this country now? Or is it what the government wants it to look like?

  7. Don’t be surprised to see more tangkap ISA – operasi sapu padam is already ongoing!

    After all, the current BN government was elected with the highest number of seats. The voters had given the current BN government a blank cheque in 2004.

  8. There are many of us who do not totally support the HINDRAF action. However, the general consensus is that we sympathise with the Indian minority, and they are struggling to be heard, to be seen, to be appreciated. Whatever HINDRAF did, whatever the leaders said, it was just to attract attention to the plight of the Indians. Attention that was denied for the past 50 years, or was hijacked by Semi Value for his pecuniary ends.

    By putting the HINDRAF leadership under the ISA, the government is clearly telling us that the case against them for attempted murder or for sedition is probably baseless, or impossible to win in a court of law. Now that they have branded HINDRAF as a terrorist organisation, for which they have no proof whatsoever, the den of thieves have no choice but to detain the leaders without trial. It also goes to prove that the Indians are continuing to be marginalised, and that any attempt to speak out will be ruthlessly stifled. Semi Value has to maintain his stony silence now. He can’t overtly support the den of thieves, and he can’t condemn the ISA action either. Talk about being squeezed between a rock and a hard place. The standard story of minorities in Bolehland.

  9. If someone reported to the police saying that Hindraf has links to a terrorist group, shouldn’t the government conduct investigations first to prove this allegation? – bra888

    You mean appoint a 3-man panel to investigate the authenticity of the police report like the Lingam scandal? Haha, dream on!

  12. Nope, our voting is NOT anonymous. You have to show your IC and they give you a numbered ballot that is linked to your IC number. We used to trust the independence of the EC not to divulge who voted for whom, but there is little doubt that the EC reports the voting patterns (but not on an individual basis) to the den of thieves.

    I wouldn’t worry about letting them know who I vote for anyway. I have been voting opposition all my life !

  14. why the mufti of perak not arrested under ISA for making a choas in Ipoh. He took action on his own without investigation relating to silibin church in ipoh.
    He even said chinese and Indians are bulling the malays in an interview. refer youtube for evidence.
    now the mufti he is walking free. Anda yakin mungkin!

  19. dawsheng,
    No need to wait that long. Just go and read Malaysia-today, “loosing the Plot” by RPK. The muftii had decreed that the statue ercted facing the sea in Sabah is haram and worked had stopped.

  20. UMNO dare to bully Indians because the are few and poor, who is Samy Vellu and what is MIC does not matter. They let the Chinese alone because we have fair share of the economy more in numbers and influences, but who is Ong Ka Ting and where is MCA? We are getting weaker by the day, we are weakest if we are not united. The Chinese and Indians need a new partner and it is not UMNO.

  21. Yes, PAS did not stop building the largest Budhha statue in Kelantan. Accordingto RPK, Indians were given a plot of land by PAS in Kelantan to build a Hindu temple. Indeed, Nik Aziz is a true Muslim who practise freedom of worship and fair play as documented in the Holy Kuran

  23. Stormfury,
    you are wise. Just take the money and go and pangkah any symbol as long as it is not dacing!
    Who cares if they found out later, In fact they would be more scared than the voters. It is an outright proof that they are votes buying.

  25. I asked this question in M’sia Today and I ask again.

    I assume most of us are for the Bersih walk on 10 Nov. The question is, on what basis should the opposition contend the very elections that they claim is tainted with fraudulent lists/votes etc ect?

    Would it not smack of hypocrisy if they were to participate, which would effectively render that walk/memo meaningless?

    Would not the BN then use this as justification that the elections are free and fair? If not why would the opposition take part?

    Yes, BN can put any monkey (and they already have) to pose as opposition and ‘legally’ win it, but the boycott of the mainstream opposition would surely send out a clear signal.

  26. I am really saddened that our PM sees it fit to put the 6 Hindraf people under ISA. I am against the ISA on the basis that the ISA as a law is immoral. To detain people without trial is to deprive people of proper justice. This law can be easily abused by any govt for its own political agenda. As for using it against Hindraf, it is inappropriate as the Hindraf demonstration has been largely a peaceful one except for the fact that the police took violent action against them. The video-clips from You-tube it looks like Hindraf has not been violent. I am sure that the police have their own photographers to bear out this fact.

    Further, the main grouse of Hindraf is the marginalisation of the Indian poor which I believe is legitimate, even though I do not agree with all that they stand for. But I respect their right to speak up. Unfortunately, the big ears of the PM are not listening. Why?
    I believe that there is a political agenda behind all this.

    To take such a drastic action will aggravate the hurt and pain felt by the poor Indians. This will push them further away from the BN.
    I am sure that there will be calls from many quarters to get the Indians exercise their electoral rights. I will not be surprised if the Indians, who never voted before, will come out in greater numbers to show their discontent. After if MIC is perceived as not being able to do anything for them, what is there to lose if they voted Keadilan, PAS or DAP?

    Also, the PM is not really listening to the people. His big ears seems deaf. As such PM is losing his credibility fast. Is the ISA consonant with the teaching of Islam?

    From all that is going in the blogs, one can write much about the double standards of the present BN govt. Khairy can demonstrate and get away with it. His was more rowdy than the Hindraf demonstration. The Mufto of Perak can get away with causing religious tension between the Muslim-Christians in Perak and yet not charged.

    What can be done in such a situation?
    1. Pray for God’s judgment on the govt.
    2. Use your electoral rights.
    3. Continue to blog and email and influence yr friends one by one against voting UMNO candidates.
    4. The way of the truth will prevail.

  28. MCA has no ball; can not compare with the Hindraf. MCA means Money Collecting Agent. Ong Kar Ting had collected Rm 200,000 from the gov for a primary school; he felt he had discharge his duty of Chinese community. Can the Rm 200,000 become Rm 20,000.

  29. neither am i a hindu, nor am i a muslim, christianity is also not my faith.i am the minority of minorities. but today, i am a malaysian that is completely flabbergasted with the governments high handed actions to curb any sort of unrest(disquiet) by the public.

    whether hindraf are right or wrong is a topic for another day. i believe their cause has merit to be heard. let us, all malaysians unite for a basic common principle of equality, justice and freedom. Today is definitely a sad day for any common laymen.

  30. Pingback: VIDEO: Kit Siang, Karpal condemns ISA « Jed Yoong

  31. Now they are crowing that the Indians are actually better off than many other races. They quote some stupid figures that the Indian poverty rate is 2.9% whilst the national average is 5.9%.
    But then, 90% of the Indian wealth is in the hands of Anandhan Krishnan and Samy Vellu.
    What else is left for the other Indians?
    Minus those two rich man and then calculate the Indian’s poverty rate.

  32. “the Chinese is facing the same fate as the Indians, it is a matter of time”.

    All non-UMNO citizens are having the same fate, let it be the Indians, Chinese, Malays, Kadazans or Muruts. We can only have prosperity for the country only if we can get rid of UMNO. They are the root of all evils but they had cleverly camouflaged themselves by making use of Islam Hadhari. They are worse than PAS in terms of extremism. Look at Sabah, what is happening there once it comes under UMNO.

    If they are not evils why should they be scared of an Independent ACA and election commission and they keep on working relentlessly to subjugate the press and a submissive police and judiciary.

    They have no feelings for the poor and the suppressed and the way hey abused their power is only a short step towards autocracy.

    They say they will be fair and transparent but do the Limgamgate and Justice Zaki’s promotion any indication to this. They say they will fight corruption but do the PKFZ fiasco, all the collapses and leakages in government buildings and Parliament house, the gatekeeper and the one eye jack notoriety and many many more fiascos any indication to their fight. They are literally trying to desensitized us so much so that we will get use to all their lies. They just want to stay put so that they can keep on plundering until the country runs dry or until they are overthrown by the people’s power just like Marcos.

  33. This shows the arrogance of our imam hadhari and cronies.The indian community were screaming to recognize their problems.But nobody admits that there is a problem.Well to put the issues down our imam impose the draconian law but he never realise there will be more uthayas mushroming.long live hindraf!!!!

  36. It is easy to put people behind bars. But no one can put the thoughts of a person behind anything. The due process of the law must be applied. Why then we take an oath under Rukunegara ‘kedaulatan Undang-Undang” the supremacy of the law. The due process had been well explained in 1354 ” That no man of what estate or condition that he be, shall be put out of land or tenement, nor taken nor imprisoned, nor disinherited, nor put to death, without being brought in answer by due process of the law.”

    All those who value freedom must state it in no uncertain terms.

  37. Everyone should do his bits. Go and canvass for votes for the opposition. Many of the voters who do not read the internet are not aware of the rots in the country.
    They are presented with glossy picture of the country by those UMNO and MCA controlled newspaper.

  38. Most importantly, the government remains largely unresponsive to these mounting tensions. Proposed anti-corruption measures have stalled, the police are still largely unaccountable and electoral barriers for opposition parties remain in place. All of these problems have in recent months fueled some of the largest protests in Malaysia’s history. The government has responded by cracking down hard on peaceful demonstrators and banning further protests – an order that the political opposition and non-governmental organizations have defied.
    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/IL14Ae01.html

  39. It is my sincere hope and prayer that the Indians for whom the Uthayakumar and the other four fought for will not desert them at this time. Stand by their families. Support them and what they stood for.
    They may have employed some strange strategies to put across their message but they fought for the oppressed and the weak. They deserve support.
    Now what all of them can do is a get all the Indians to dump MIC and Samy Vellu into a scrap heap in the next general elections. Just vote for any party besides BN.

  41. THese five will go down in the annals of history that truly fought for the marginalised Indian labourer………not Sambanthan, not Manickavasagam and not any other unmentionables……..the government doesnt know….but after this, their names will be imprinted in the mind of every Malaysian Indian…….Badawi just upped the stakes………..

  42. This is a sad day for the country! I fully agreed with AsIseeit. Yes, pray for God’s judgment. May God comforts the 5 and their family members with peace. Do not be discouraged, rejoice in the Lord! Your detention is the beginning of change for the better. Truth will prevail. God will be after the evil doers, guilt will haunt them.

    The UMNOputras only have their interest in mind, not the rakyat. They only stir up sentiment of the rakyat to protect their self interest! Yes, surely they’ll say this drastic action is necessary for the peacefulness of the country. If MCA and MIC are really in effective power sharing of the BN, please speak-up for justice!

    Don’t forget, with this bloody action, we shall even be more committed to vote for DAP, PKR and PAS! Spread the words!

    Share the ‘beutitudes’ of the UMNOputras not only with your fellow Malaysian but also foreigners whenever you have the opportunity.
    Let them know the ‘real undercurrent’ in our beloved country, if they ever think of coming to invest. Growth will only benefits their own pocket; now we can see why Kelantanese refused to be conned by their development project promises!

  43. I will say it again.

    Compile all the evidence of the wrongdoings of the Umnoputras into a VCD and distribute it to the people and showcase it to the world to see.

    The mainstream medias are control by them.
    We cannot fight them nationally,so we fight them internationally.

    You can choose one of the title below for the VCD:

    1) Apartheid at its best.
    2) Malaysia,truly sickening.
    3) How to be corrupt and get away with it – Malaysia style.
    4) Justice my foot!
    5) Malaysia,mother of all shits.

    We fight the Umnoputras as true Malaysians and by Malaysians.

  44. Nazri has the nerve to call the demonstrators as “cowards”. In fact, those who took to the streets are the real heroes of the day as they have to brave the unknown of being shot with live bullets. Thank God, they were hit by the water cannons, chemical laced water and tear gas. One person who stood out among the demonstrators is this person Amri who joined the crowd despite him being lame and have to walk using clutches. I salute all these brave men and women. As for the “cowards”, they are none other than the blokes in the BN, especially UMNO, MCA and MIC. When trouble brews, they quickly hide behind the skirts of the all the idiotic laws passed by them and peeping out from the skirts, they call the others names like terrorists for one. I dare them to come out and have an intelligent debate, i.e. if they have the brains for it instead of using these flimsy laws to protect their own butts. The cowards? Definitely not the people in the street, but the people who are continuously in self-denial and arrogant. Stop pushing the people to the edge, for that is how the French and Russian revolutions started, the bourgeois vs the proletariats. So, Mr Prime Minister, its time to start listening to the people instead of shunning them.

  45. YB

    I was away shooting for the last few days. We had smoke screen, a simple local temple brought back to ancient China, an old sifu whom was thrown back without even moving a leg. We had Mak Salleh who can fly from rooftop to rooftop…………..now it is back to normal

    Sounds like a BN promise, doesn’t it? Why do people still vote for them? Grace was right, we all should go canvassing for the opposition. Yes ,they can give ang pow before the ballot boxes, but like so many people, mark anything but the “Cacing” lah, sorry my thoughts just got control of my hands, i mean “Dacing”.

    Soon Badawi will lose control, because lack of 2/3 majority is staring them in the eyes. Probable a “May 13” mini series will be coming to the theater soon.

    Just another day’s work for the BN, but for god’s sake, we Malaysians must come out of this political coma. By the way those 5 guys under ISA had never been Indian leaders to me, they are Malaysian heroes. So please don’t vote for those BN zeros again. Another BN landslide???….Zam you very much.

  46. It’s been raining and flooding in 4 states already. Is God weeping?

    Badawi said come work with me not work for me……How to work with you when you dont listen?

    Bodowi said I have big ears….talk to me…………..when the ordinary folk talks he doesn’t listen.

    Imam Hadhari then said they can approach me if they have a grouse, and he hid the fact that HINDRAF had written hundreds of letters to him which have gone unanswered. And he has the cheek to say they never approached hi,.

    Then after the rally in KL, AAB said he will meet with them but Semi Value must be present. After HINDRAF gave the PM 1 week to set up the meeting, the PM never replied.

    Then they started charging HINDRAF leaders under sedition. One charge after another. Then they declared HINDRAF Enterprise as illegal so they could freeze their funds and hence stop their activities?

    Now he as Home Minister charges them under ISA because he probably cant answer anything to what they have said, and wants to quiet them. And he probably does not think that his pet poodle the AG can nab the HINDRAF leaders.

    Mr AAB, how are they to meet and put forward their case to you who said you will listen, when they are imprisoned under the ISA?

    Mr pm, the person who has tried to raise racial sentiments were you, yr deputy, zam, nazri, ag and igp. They should be the ones charged under ISA.

    HINDRAF were submitting a petition to British Embassy to submit to the Queen. And this is the PM’s reaction and over-reaction to the matter.

    I wonder whether pm thinks he can hoodwink all the malaysians?

  48. budak Says:… “why dont all Malaysian have another peaceful walk to PutraJaya… and rewrite the history to regain MERDEKA from DRACONIAN UMNO…”

    it’s a very good idea, but should be to istana negara.
    instead of 100K malaysian, why not a million malaysian have a peaceful walk there. the more the better. show to the king, rakyat dah muak dengan kerenah kepimpinan BN UMNO. who dare take the lead without fear… i will join in!

  51. We are furious and saddened over the ISA detention
    of 5 Hindraf leaders…!! Long live UthayaKumar and
    other 4 HEROes!!

    Your main intention of the street walk is to bring the
    Indian Dilemma and issues like poverty of the Indians
    to light so that Government WILL plan and take mea-
    sures to help the Indians and All other Minority Groups…

    Instead of rendering HELP, the Government storm them
    with more HARDSHIP and SUFFERINGS…!! Mind you they
    are all Malaysia Citizens and The Government is ill-treating
    all The Indians, soon will be the Chinese and All other
    Minority Groups…!!

    This is the DOMINO EFFECT and Consequences of
    APARTHEID POLICY practised by Malay-sia Government!!

    AAB and UMNOputras have committed too big a SIN
    that ALLAH must punish them accordingly…!! It is
    just a matter of time and what we need to do is sit
    back and watch what will happen to these IDIOTs…!!!

    Hindraf is NOT a party formed to create hatred to the
    Malays as accused by Nazri and AAB! It is too DANGEROUS
    to pass that kind of comment in a multi-racial country
    and The UMNOputras and Government are playing with
    FIRE…!!!

  54. “The return of the ISA is another regression of Malaysia to the dark era of human rights violations which can only tarnish the country’s international reputation and image.” KIT

    THE RETURN OF THE ISA

    First, I understand where Kit is going with this statement but the ISA was never put on hold – correct me if I am wrong. So it is misleading to refer to what is happening as the “return of the ISA”. Just as it never went away it could not return. In fact I would not refer to the present action of this government as an attempt to breathe life into a piece of legislation long regarded repressive and abhorrent – which is what detention without charge and without access to legal counsel is all about i.e. repressive, oppressive and repulsive.

    However, we need to take a step backward and ask if a piece of legislation like the Internal Security Act is not just what the country needs in a post 9/11 world. The United States has long criticized Malaysia for the continued use of legislation like the Internal Security – the legacy of another era when the country was fighting communist terrorists. The event of 9/11 has changed all that. The United States in fact took a leaf out of Malaysia’s experience and passed into law what is today known as the U.S. Patriots Act – a very controversial piece of legislation which allows the U.S. Federal government to detain persons suspected of being terrorists or involved in terrorist activities without charge and access to legal counsel.

    In the U.S. though the controversial aspects of the U.S. Patriotic Act are reviewed by the U.S. Congress every year, and Congress may choose to amend, repeal or extend. This year the U.S. Congress reviewed and decided that it should be extended in view of the continuing need to fight Islamic extremism and terrorism within its borders.

    I am no apologist for BN but there is never a greater need to have legislation like the ISA today in our fight against Islamic extremism and terrorism – except that in Malaysia under the BN run government, the ISA has been used and continues to be used as a tool to stifle political opposition to government policies. In the immediate years after 9/11 though it did use the Act to detain Islamic extremists. However, today’s detention of HINDRAF leaders smacks of government intolerance of public dissent more than anything else.

    Were we still fighting Communist terrorists like we were doing in the 50s or in the immediate post May 13, 1969 years there may be a case for detaining them for ignoring a court order if nothing else against holding public demonstrations which by their nature were racially inflammatory – and therefore a threat to national security. The BERSIH demonstration, on the other hand, is about ordinary Malaysians being united against a government that is being used by the national coalition running it, to continue to impose unfair election practices. It has none of the racial character that HINDRAF has.

    Having said that there is a practical aspect to it that we should not lose sight of. How could the government justify detaining some 31 supporters of HINDRAF in jail and without bail when its leaders are allowed to walk free?

    Kit speaks of the “tarnishing of Malaysia’s international reputation.” But we are in a post 9/11 era and countries with the best of democratic traditions have passed similar legislation to fight terrorism within their borders.

  56. The point to my argument is that there’s no investigation done. Believing allegations without any investigation only means that ‘they’ have already taken sides.

    That’s so biased. The media shows that the government is doing ‘such a good job’, while ‘others’ are ‘enemy of the country’ or ‘terrorist’.

    Someone told that it’s a dream to have something done in a better way, but I really wish that it’s a reality that we can hold on to. That’s why some of us are fighting for.

  61. Today is the darkest day of Malaysia and we Must
    declare A Day of Mourning for The Dead of Democracy…!!

    What is the meaning of 50th Anniversary of KeMerdekaan
    of Malaysia and The UNITY of Its PEOPLEs…??!!

    As long as Government is practising APARTHEID POLICY
    in Malaysia, there WILL NEVER Be UNITY in this COUNTRY!!

    3 Cheers to UNITY of ALL MINORITY Groups in MALAYSIA!!!

  62. The majority 60% votes is not going to BN. BN used to buying votes, ghost/phantom voters & revised votes since this 50 years. DSAI has proven within their lies over SPR since DSAI once in BN parties. So if no more that Rashid, i think their votes not more than 30% this coming GE. Who willing votes for everythings Hikes? For sure not me & my friends/relatives.

  63. Yes, as a Kelantanese I would rather vote for PAS then for UMNO.So far, PAS has been fairer to the chinese and Indians then when it was under UMNO.They have not harass the chinese from selling pork, they even allocate a portion of malay land for chinese to buy houses.This was not possible during UMNO tenure. Yes ,its true they approved a piece of prime property in the town area for the Indians to build a Hindu shrine.(Jln Hamzah), and Yes, Nik Aziz opened the largest sleeping Buddha in Tumpat, Kelantan. Yes, I would rather live under PAS then under the corrupt UMNO regime.

  64. All the talk about PAS being extremists are a bunch of crap. If PAS were to contest in my area, I will vote for PAS without blinking an eye. Why?? Well, UMNO have threatened me with a keris. Tok Guru never did such a thing.

    Good enough for any doubters still out there?

  65. “When I despair, I remember that all through history the ways of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of it–always”.
    Mahatma Gandhi

    Thrown into the flames of incarceration, the HINDRAF 5 will emerge very much stronger. By token, so will their supporters. For this is how you make steel. In the meantime, the HINDRAF 5 serve as symbols in the struggle against Malaysia’s apartheid.

  68. Badawi ignores the power of cyberspace at his own peril…this is not the Chin Peng of 1948, it is not 1969 and it is not Operation Lalang of the 80s either….it is the age of the internet and sms….the information gets dissipated with pictures and video within seconds…..the ISA will not be able to stand up to information…it will not be able to stand up to truth…..the world watches… and listens with giant ears…..

  69. Long live the five martyrs.We are always with you.The Almighty God should punish the bunch of liars,corrupts,bullies,morons,hypocrites,cheats,big-headed,religious bigots, etc.Shame on you ,the ‘bbc’ MCA ,MIC ,Gerakan.Pray you idiots will soon fall into the abyss of oblivion and be severely punished.

  70. I refer to the above comments( ussually the hatred against UMNO).

    Mr short sleeve claimed that UMNO have threatened him with a keris. What is it with keris that short sleeve is so afraid of. Keris in Malay culture symbolises strengh, courage, dignity. I followed closely the UMNO general assembly.

    Hishamudin did not threaten anybody or any race with Keris. So, why he is so afraid of Keris.

    As for Hindraf leaders detained under ISA, well they deserve it. Why spread lies, incite the feeling of Hindus against the Malays. Are they not playing a very dangerous game? The PM is right about using ISA. Those who play to the gallery must be willing to pay the price.

    Please do not think majority of Malaysians are against ISA. Silent majority agree to it. It is a very effective tool against those who abuse freedom for their political game. Hindraf claimed about UMNO promoting ethnique cleansing. I ask my Indian friends. All of them said that that is not the truth. They have grouses but no Indian friends of mine agree to such a ridiculous allegation.

    Despite condemnation on UMNO, I strongly believe that it respects other races. Remember it simply can rule Malaysia on its own if it really wanted to. It simply can put A Malay as Penang Chief minister in 1990 after Gerakan and MCA fared badly in general election. But it still considers the wishes of Chinese communities.

    It still tolerate insult and racial remarks by people like LIm Kit SianG who manipulates the issue of relocation of Chinese School in Damansara several years later . And party that claim to monopoly Islam can still call Dr Mahathir as Firaun without its newspaper, Harakah, being banned.

  73. Bra888,

    Don’t be naive. That bugger whoever he is that made the police report must be an BN/umno member. You and I will not bother to go that far unless we have proof and the threat from Hindraf is serious. We all know that they are peace-loving Hindus, just that they tried to spin the joke that went bad.

    You still want Goblok Zam aka MSS to form the investigating panel? :D

  74. Watch out.There is a BN liar among us.That guy’s post appeared a while ago.No wonder they are so arrogant.They can rule without the non Malays if they want to.Very true.But is election fair to all the communities when there is gerrymandaring?When you have one MP serves more than 100,000 voters and another one represents only less than 10,000 in another constituency.

  76. “As for Hindraf leaders detained under ISA, well they deserve it. Why spread lies, incite the feeling of Hindus against the Malays. Are they not playing a very dangerous game? The PM is right about using ISA. Those who play to the gallery must be willing to pay the price.” shamsul anuar

    Hisap-muddin was not playing to the gallery when he raised that keris of his meh??

    “Hishamudin did not threaten anybody or any race with Keris.” shamsul anuar

    If he had unsheathed the keris in a loving manner, gently put his hand on it, caressed it even, and raised to kiss it and then sheathed it, it would be a different story and I’d believe you.

    But the images that we saw were images of the guy cutting the clear crisp morning air with his long intimidating keris and with his mouth wide open looking as if he was about to murder his own mother tell us a different story!

  79. If political manoeuvres are fair to everyone, there will be less conflicts and there will be no BERSIH march, lawyers march and the Hindraf protest. Acceptable political manoeuvres do not include a RM 50 per vote purchase, appointment of the Chief Justice according to self interest and paying too much attention to one group of people only. Problems do not arise suddenly. As long as they are not solved, they will keep building up. Yesterday gave birth to today. Today will give birth to tomorrow.

  80. The media reported yesterday that MUSLIM-majority Indonesia unveiled one of Asia’s tallest Jesus Christ statues in the mainly Christian town of Manado on North Sulawesi island.

    Look at our fanatic UMO leaders.
    What has happened to the statue to be build in Sabah?

    UMO fanatics are so much worst than Indonesians!

  82. Indonesians have their “Pantjasila” similar to our Rukun Negara. In it there is no mention of religion – just God. In Indonesia a man can be Muslim but his wife a Christian, and their children Hindus. They are really messed up.

  84. Except that during the day the man becomes a Christian and starts praying to Jesus and at night he becomes a Muslim and believes in polygamy. Then the next day he may be a Mormon. if he could change religion the way he changes his clothes then this spells problems because it shows the guy is confused.

    Imagine if he turns out to be the President or the Prime Minister!

  87. i have a friend, from Kelantan, of Thai heritage who are actually the real bumiputras of the state, however, they were not given full bumiputra status and only half-bumi.

    A lot of them do no have good education and continue to work in blue collar industries. NEP is bad, and they were also marginalised. The NEP is created to rob and not to share the wealth of the country.

  88. ISA

    This is the first three words I see when I woke up this morning. though i know pak lah would definitely invoke ISA one day, i didnt expect him to do so early. Let’s hope the international will put some pressure on the government to release the 5 hindraf leaders.

  89. shamshul anuar Says: Remember it (UMNO) simply can rule Malaysia on its own if it really wanted to. It simply can put A Malay as Penang Chief minister in 1990 after Gerakan and MCA fared badly in general election.

    How convenient your argument can be. Sure, UMNO can rule Malaysia alone but it will be a poorer and more screwed-up Malaysia. I believe UMNO is gradually moving toward total monopoly of power in this country and that is why I can see that the country is becoming worse. Can you see it?

    Sure, a Malay can be appointed as the Chief Minister of Penang. Who care really? Who do not know it is a tokenism to give a Malay dominated Malaysia a multi-racial image. To put it rudely, power sharing my foot! Perhaps you should also ask why MCA and Gerakan performed so badly in Penang and in fact in most Chinese majority constituencies. Perhaps you should ask why MIC is able to win Ijok during the recent by election when PKR was represented by a well respected Malay. You Malays know how to vote a hapless Indian knowing that it will serve your own interest, not because you love multi-racism. I think you are blind to your own racism. If you think UMNO is benevolent, you better think again.

  90. Shanshul anuar Says: It still tolerate insult and racial remarks by people like LIm Kit SianG who manipulates the issue of relocation of Chinese School in Damansara several years later.

    Hello, Sdr Kit never insults the Malay or UMNO. He only pointed out the abuse, the corruption, and the lack of governance in the Government led by the Malays. No, he did not manipulate the Chinese school issue. Chinese School is our legitimate and constitutional rights. Soon I must say even the Malays may have to learn mandarin if they want to find their rightly place.

  91. There was no need whatsoever to invoke the ISA on the HINDRAF leadership- talk about over-reacting, pandering to the kampong gallery, sensationalism and making a convenient scapegoat out of the whole matter to cover up for the defiencies and child-like immaturity of the current Government leadership! They really know how to make an ass of themselves in the eyes of the international community, as well as within the borders of the nation!

  92. DarkHorse Says:
    Indonesians have their “Pantjasila” similar to our Rukun Negara. In it there is no mention of religion – just God. In Indonesia a man can be Muslim but his wife a Christian, and their children Hindus. They are really messed up.

    Actually, old bean, we are the ones who are really messed up, not them, as they have the intellectual edge on how to be tolerant compared to the narrowmindedness in this part of the world. It works for them, therefore why can’t it work for us over here? The answer to this is found in the mental attitudes of religious leaders and politicians (Muslim ones) who have taken this once tolerant nation down the road to backwardness- it’s as simple as that!

  93. Hello Greatstuff, old bean!

    Indonesians who are mostly Muslims persecuted Chinese Christians and their government stood by never intending to exercise any control over these Muslim extremist groups and as a result thousands of Chinese Christians made their way to the United States asking for asylum from the U.S. Government. Thousands were granted asylum as a result of violence against Christians. To attribute such persecution to ethnicity alone is to deny the fact that religion has a lot to do with it.

    Talk about religious tolerance, talk about having an ‘intellectual edge’ – my ass!

  94. Pingback: Colour Blind - » Hindraf: Top 5 leaders detained under ISA

  95. Why do you guys bother to reply to Shamshul Anuar, who is clearly an UMNO cybertrooper. He’s probably taken over from RealWorld in commenting on this blog. Sure, the silent majority trusts UMNO, the silent majority supports the use of the ISA, the silent majority will always vote BN…..

    Let’s see what the silent majority will do this election.

  96. The arrogance with which they use the ISA and then try to condone it is reminiscent of tyrants like Hitler and Mussolini. Even Lee Kuan Yew never believed in detaining people without trial. Lee’s style was to take his critics to court for defamation or sedition or any other breach of the law. Then he would make sure that the punishment is so severe that in most cases the guilty parties would have to go into bankruptcy.

    In the case of Bolehland, the thieves are so afraid of taking people to court (due to the capabilities, or lack thereof, of the AG’s Chambers) that they have to resort to detention without trial.

    Shame on you, BN. Tyrants will always fail, no matter how much you justify your actions.

  97. “Why do you guys bother to reply to Shamshul Anuar, who is clearly an UMNO cybertrooper. ” God father

    Well at least someone using an obvious handle wears his political loyalty on his sleeve. I’m not so sure about limkamput who is here still nursing his damaged ego.

  98. You are right Godfather(you must be so smittened and proud of your name, when everyone has to address you this way!). I might change mine to “fairy Godmother” :D)
    Back to that cybertrooper, they should have ignored him. Whatever we write won’t be absorbed, so what’s the point? Buang masa saja.

  99. I am impressed of burn’s suggestion – 1 million people!

    But there are approx 80 here and maybe 2000 visits this site; which makes 2080. If we speard the news to 50 of our friends/family there will be only 104000. Unless the 50 spread to another 50 and so one.

    BN is shaken by 100k. With 1M, BN will collapse.

    Appropriate time, perhaps 31st Dec – to celebrate New Year Eve. You don’t need pemit to celebrate New year eve!

    But the celebration should be outside the palace – seeking the King to release the 5 Heros and disolution of the Parliment.

    THOSE ELECTED SHOULD REALISE THAT “PEOPLE’S VOICE” CANNOT BE SUPRESSED BY THE THREAT OF ISA.

  101. Dear Shamsul,
    You have a totally wrong perception. We are what we are today is because of the ‘divide and rule’ agenda by the UMNO. Sadly they are getting stronger as days go by because their policy has resulted many of our ignorant Malay countrymen addicted to all the ‘wheelchair’ privileges and protection. Its like ‘drug’, they are sticked with it; they can’t live without it, just like you, you will prefer to ‘die’ rather than having that ‘survival package’ taken away because you ‘think’ (though its not real) you can only ‘make it’ with the ‘umbrella’. They always say the NEP must be there to lift the Malays from the poverty, but how would you feel if you you need to pay higher price for a normal house whereas Malays like you enjoy special discount for big bungalows!? Again you have to be one of those non-Malays to know our feeling.

    Malay had been tolerating? Yes, they are ‘enforcing’ and ‘enjoying’ (government pampered you like mad! No hurry to look for a job after graduation because UMNO would make all excuses to pay you some duit kopi from the oil fund! Of course some non-Malays would also get some ‘rub’). However, the non-Malay poor are forced (otherwise we would also end up ISA) to tolerate but knowing that the situation is getting ‘worst’ because their Malay neighbors are getting more ‘shiok’ with the NEP drug.

    Dear Shamsul, for the sake of the country, whether you like it or not, we are already all under the same roof and 50 years after Merdeka, let’s built the country together, no need ‘Bumiputra’ or ‘non-bumiputra’. We are all putra of the land; our orang asli (in peninsula) do not complaint that this land was theirs before Parameswara came to Malacca (please, Hisham, don’t ‘kris’ me if you are anak lelaki, is this not true?)! If some adjustment period need to be given, well, it has been given during the 1970-1990 period with ‘TOLERANCE’ of our Chinese and Indian friends. But now they keep going on and on with tons of excuses here and there; and they got the ‘chic’ to tell you ‘tolerate’, ‘tolerate’, like you. They tell you old grandmother stories why they ‘deserve’ the special rights now, forgetting it was a temporary (under the ’emergency’ ‘shadow’ during the aftermath of the 513) with implementation to help them. The non-Malays had been made suckers by their MCA and MIC ‘bodoh-heads’ that ‘everything’ must be ‘negotiated under the bed’ without publicity to avoid antagonising our Malay friends, and this is what we get today! Go to hell with their lies; will MCA and MIC members tell their bosses to go to hell the next time they tell you ‘we negotiate, we don’t publicise’. They had led all the non-bumis to this mess.

    Dear Shamsul, if you are anak lelaki (the UMNOyouth always like to use this phrase, but are they?), give up your priviledge-lah. Slough on your own, dare you? Yes, you can! Just like everyone of us! The ‘inferiority and Malay must rely on Bumiputra priviledge phobia’ has always make you think ‘cannot’!

    Dear Shamsul, who knows the country could achieve much better economical growth without the NEP; more FDI, more local investment, more growth and productivity with less corruption and malpractices under the ‘protection’ of the NEP (its an open secret; just see why Proton is in such a shape). Be of good courage, be a anak lelaki, then only you talk.

    Sad to talk about Penang chief ministership; if Gerakan + MCA + MIC cannot prevent UMNOputra becoming a Chief Minister, take-lah; afterall the post is only a rubber-stamp post, no real power. Ask Dr.Koh and he’ll tell you the story! UMNOyouth and SIL are bigger than him. He works under tremendous UMNO pressure and fear! He has to be a Mr. Nice Guy to keep on going; I’m sure my highly respected Senior Koh is weeping seeing his beloved son in such a state! I ‘love’ him, but the love of the country comes first! (borrow this slogan from the UMNO hypocrites).

    The ‘divide and rule’ policy has resulted very serious situation now; the civil service and GLC is primarily made up of Malays and the private sector the non-Malays (in my own experience, my Malay staffs will stick with the company for a while, and leave for a government job as soon as they get an offer. They would prefer to be a lower pay ‘pegawai’ rather than the higher salary job in the private sector). Whenever a genuine criticism is made against some inefficient government department, it is always so readily turned into anti-Malay issue. When the ‘civil service’ implement and enforce some genuine measures to put things right, the non-Malays private sector will always see it is ‘stumbling blocks, marginalisation policy or ‘license to corrupt’. Yes, it is top urgent to correct this situation; this will magnify the tension. Please, please correct the situation, dear PM, DPM, all BN component parties, don’t make a big issue out of HINDRAF appeal for the Indian poor!

  103. FUND TO HELP FAMILIES OF THOSE OF THE 31 DETAINED ON 25/11

    15 NGOs that met on Monday 10th December 2007 at the MHS HQ unanimously endorsed a proposal that the well being of the 31 persons arrested at Batu Caves on 25th November pertaining to the Hindraf Rally should be looked after including their families. Some of the families have indicated that there are in financial problems and need urgent help as the persons detained were sole bread winners.

    Thus we would like to appeal to all concerned Malaysians to donate towards a fund to help the families of those of the 31detained who are in need of aid. Please bank in your contributions to CIMB A/c 14020175965054 a/c of Malaysia Hindu Sangam. Please fax your bank in slip to 03 77847304 for us to follow. For further enquiries, please call Vela/Roshan at 03- 77844668.

  104. To all MALAYSIAN.
    Its time for all malaysia to go all out ,tell the people to suport HINDRAF. Tell them not to fear HINDRAF.they fight for indian right.tell them to fear UMNO.they make people more poor.look around nowadays everything is so expensive.VOTE BN,MIC,MCA,GERAKAN,PPP.OUT.they cannot open their mouth to help the people.they are the dog of UMNO.
    GOD BLESS HINDRAF.LONG LIVE HINDRAF.
    ALL INDIAN DONT GIVE UP.WE NEED U TO GO ALL OUT.
    MAY GOD BLESS U TOO LIM KIT SIANG.

  106. Though I dont agree with shamshul anuar, I welcome his comments here. We need some voices to get this blog a bit balanced.

    SIMPLYJUSTICE suggestion is simply brilliant!

    Appropriate time, perhaps 31st Dec – to celebrate New Year Eve. You don’t need permit to celebrate New year eve!

    But the celebration should be outside the palace – seeking the King to release the 5 Heros and disolution of the Parliment.

    Have BERSIH ever thought of this?? Just wear yellow on the new year eve and paint the city yellow and let’s “celebrate” New Year!!!

  107. To reply to what DiaperHead said above:

    Yes Diaperhead, there was an ugly mob rule mentality inflicted against the ethnic Chinese in Indonesia during 1988, by those who lost sight of any rational intellectual ability, and deplorable it truely was.
    But, on the different issue of inter-faith tolerances, as pracitised in the worlds most populous Muslim nation of over 200 million,the comparatively small nation of Malaysia has enforced a rigid version backed up by Shyriah,with it’s dual legal system thus denying its brothers and sisters the value of a real option to choose, and in this sense is intellectually an underclass when compared to Indonesia.

  109. This is a big mistake by the PM.

    1) He officially politicise the issue when it was social before. This move will only radicalize some Indians more. In fact its likely to consolidate the Indians further and drive them away from MIC

    2) He now is solely responsible for any damage due to Indian grievances. He has drawn a definite line between Indian-Malay relationship in this country – a line that can never be healed. It will be patched-over, covered-up and painted-over but never healed UNLESS the NEP and Islamic state agenda is ended and somwhere near 2020 not 2057. So indirectly he himself has spelled the death of the NEP and Islamic agenda ironically.

    3) He must do much more than this to placate the growing resentment. The problem is he has a poor track record. I have no doubt that there will be more ‘corridors’-like idea/mega project solely for the Indians but it will fail also, only delaying the inevitable rebuild of resentment. He can do this only if a recession does not come soon otherwise, things will blow up even larger than it is now.

    To me Hindraf is to Badawi what Iraq is to George Bush, it will end his administration in infamy.

  110. We appeal to the United Nations Council for Human Rights, in particular the United States of America and the European Union, to issue a stern and strong statement of condemnation of the Malaysian UMNO-led government, for gross and despicable violation of the basic human right to peaceful assembly, for the unlawful and inhumane prosecution of innocent victims of peaceful rallies, for the instigation and false accusations made against participants of peaceful rallies, for the abuse and corruption of the judicial process, and most of all, for the failure to protect and uphold the statutory rights and civil liberties of the Malaysian citizens as enshrined in the constitution.

  112. Shamshul, surely you will not disagree with me that UMNO, MCA and MIC are all corrupt to the core. Open your eyes, look at the Indian community, and then take a look at your own, tell me why they don’t deserves better. As for the Chinese, please be very worry, but please not DAP or Lim Kit Siang, we are here trying to save this country from the dogs and pigs. If you wants to condemn the Chinese, there are many gangsters, drug dealers, pimps and criminals, if Malay wants to go after that kind of Chinese, I will be with you but don’t you know who is taking care of Mat Rempit, some gang leaders are members of MCA and MIC? You are in a state of denial, Shamsul. Wake up!

  113. Today, many develop countries has done research on alternative energy to replace oil, solar energy for example. This will happen sooner than later Shamsul. You think you are doing fine because your kind is industrious? Wake up my brother. Wake up.

  115. Well! we can’t rally in Malaysia….but we can sure rally around the world. Malaysians are now spread around the world because of the UMNO regime. Malaysians in Singapore may be gagged just like in Malaysia but there is many of them in China, Australia, UK, US etc. Live telecast around the world by exclusively by Al-Jazeera, it is going to be a big hit. Rally us Unc Kit…. and we will be there.

  116. “Shamsul: Please do not think majority of Malaysians are against ISA. Silent majority agree to it. It is a very effective tool against those who abuse freedom for their political game”

    I believe the minority you are talking about is only 300,000 of them and they are all UMNO members…..Shamsul, for starters this is no place for UMNO lovers or UMNO symphatisers….some of us have been greatly affected whether directly or indirectly by the UMNO regime. We are not condemning UMNO becuase it is a Malay political party but becuase it is a party that is destroying the livelihood of Malaysians. If they are Democrat or Liberal or Labor or Mugabe’s whatever party…. Malaysians will still hate them for what they are doing.

    Get your thoughts right brother.

  117. Ultimately, it will be UMNO that destroys the country. It will happen when the UMNO Malays themselves will turn against their party.
    The UMNO Malay psyche is unique.
    Corruption, abuse of power or immorality of their leaders do not matter at all to them. What they care is material rewards? What can UMNO give me? What more benefits can I get from UMNO? What jobs you can give? It’s all Give Me, Give Me, Give Me.
    They will [deleted] their leaders as long they are in power. Any UMNO leader who is no more in power is treated like dirt. He is snubbed. He is dumped and forgotten.
    Even Mahathir could lose the contest for a miserable UMNO delegate position.
    UMNO’s soul is real sick but see how it talks about the sanctity of religion when they break all tenets of God.
    UMNO is holding its supports through patronage. Stop the hand outs and they will desert UMNO. Yes, that day will come when UMNO will not have enough to give, give and give.

  119. Guys, I think you should engage and rebut each of Shamsul’s points instead of brushing him off. That way more visitors to the site such as Shamsul can understand the truth of what is going on.

    You must understand that most people get their news only from the mainstream media and have been totally brainwashed by umno/bn over the years. What do you expect when you are given small doses every day of your life? What do you think it has done to the malays? They keep telling the malays that they are weak and that they need help and that they(umno) are fighting for their (malay) rights and others are here to take them away.

    That brainwashing has gone on to such an extent of making malays think they are weak and incompetent. They(malays), according to umno, need a tongkat to survive. And as long as they vote for umno, umno will provide the tongkat for them.

    All as an excuse for umnoputras to plunder the riches of this nation.

  120. as an example:-

    Zakaria Mat Daros, the ex-Klang Municipal Councillor who at one time had 3 family members in the council. Wa-lau-weh, looks like definately dont hav ecompetent malays la in Klang. Have to give seats on one council to three people from the same familuy. No guesses as to how the votes can be loaded in this way.

    Now ZMD was at one time an office boy and later a railway gate keeper the story goes. Can one explain how he amassed his wealth? Why no ACA investigation?

    The land he has built his mansion upon is marked for low cost housing. Any guesses as to how he got the land for himself/wife and how he amassed the wealth to build the mansion?

    Still nothing for ACA to query about?

    What about Close-One-Eye Jasin MP who asked the Customs to allow some timber to be shipped out? Why no action for corrupt use of power? This was used on Anwar, so why not on Jasin?

    What about AP Queen Rafidah?

    Nolah nothing to investigate.

  121. When JKr contractors do shoddy work , we the rakyat end up paying billions more to the contractors. examples:- Martrade building, MORR cracks and patch work. The additional amount paid is in billions lah kawan. Where got government department dont know how to do contract one.

    Even in my contracts with JKR, I have to place a performance bond (bank guarantee). And if substandard work is done, or remedial works need to be done, I have to remedy or pay the difference if JKR calls someone else to remedy.

    But for these mega-mega projects, no protection? How naive you want us to be? Shamsul, you and all of us are paying for it, as will our children, and their children because you are ignorant of the facts.

  122. When our ministers and dpm declared that bumi equity has not reached 30% yet, we have Clown Nazri saying we will ask for more if it reaches 30%. Isn’t that inciting racial feelings?

    And the dpm said they will make the methodolgy public but todate, more than a year after ASLI showed that bumi equity has exceeded 30%, no sign of the methodolgy? Silap Mata? Make everyone forget?

    Today because of the internet, the info is out there and can be dug up easily again.

    Look its very easy to calculate, most local companies formed during the nep have to have 30% bumi equity. My company does. Then you have companies under Sime Darby which by its own would be huge already. There is Petronas. There is Felda, etc etc which are 100% bumi. So how can one sit and say bumi equity is still below 30%? All the politicians are saying is that they have not raped and accrued enough yet! These guys want more of what belongs to the rakyat!

  123. Shamsul, I sincerely hope that someone dear to you is held under the ISA. Only then will you understand whether the ISA is justified.

    I also hope that somone dear to you is held like the 31 guys who attended the rally on 25th November and get accused for murder and are left in prison without bail. Perhaps then you can understand how the police are victimising the rakyat.

    Shamsul, if you have seen the pictures and the many videos of the incidents on 25th November, you will understand that teh crowd was a peaceful crowd who had no weapons. No weapons were used against the police. This is how the pm of the nation treats the rakyat.

    Did they cause any disturbance? No they gathered on a sunday to march to the british embassy to hand a petition to sue the British Govt for damages. Did they accus ethe malays of anything? Do they have hatred towards the malays?

    No its the bn/umno guys who have made statements that they are anti-malay and are terrorists. So who is inciting racial hatred? Its the bn…………

  125. I take my hats off to the Indians who attended the rally on 25th Nov despite warnings and the court order. They behaved extremely well and withstood the onslaught from the police without retaliating. Sure a couple of cops got injured, but they were injured with bricks that were thrown at them. Again it means it was a peaceful unarmed crowd that came, and took the chemical laced water cannons and tear gas, and kept coming back for more punishment. The crowd present was more than 50,000 despite all the warnings and threat of arrest.

    Shamsul, do you even wonder why people are willing to do this? And risk arrest? You need to probe deeper. Dont just listen to the TV1,2,3, or other news stations which are all controlled or under the control of bn. Also NST/Star/UM/BH. Tell me which paper you read. Do you think you got the true story of what happened that day?

    Have you spoken with anyone who went there who could give you a first hand account of what happened?

    Wake up Shamsul, there’s more to it than meets the eye. The bn wants you to swallow wholesale what it dishes out to you. You should be smarter than this. Learn to read between the lines.

  126. to dawsheng who wrote about petrol,

    did you know that according to Islam petrol belongs to the public. There are 3 three types of possessions permitted: individual, public and government. the government can only possess Baitulmal while minerals like gold or petroleum must be divided fairly to the public. Individual and government CANNOT control petroleums.

    it is called ma’ul iddu = air mengalir tak berhenti = all belong to the public. Government functions as distributor only.

    Not many Muslims know this, hence the monopoly of petroleum money by Muslim regimes throughout the world.

  127. All Malaysians citizens, please stand up to UMNO which is the Real Terrorist organisation in Malaysia!!!They organised/supported/sponsored the killings of many innocent lives on May 13,1969.The Blood of these innocent lives are still on UMNO’s hands!!!Yet they persist in dishonouring those innocent victims by continueing to terrorise Malaysian citizens about 513 and waving the keris with impunity!!!All malaysians must UNITE to bring this TERRORIST organisation to JUSTICE!!!We can start by voting against any UMNO/BN candidiate in the next GE!!!We owe it to all the innocent lives that were slaughtered by this Terrorist Group and who have yet to get justice!!!

  129. Isn’t that inciting racial feelings? – Lakshy

    – probably it does, but the main reason is they are desperately in need of non-umno Malay votes. Times have changed and so much has happened since 2004 and they themselves know it’s different now.

    They are desperate, and their only hope is to let the dogs out and allow their publicity scumbags come out with all sorts of ridiculous comments, while the PM and his deputy sit and watch and gauge the rakyat’s reaction. Well, they might as well enjoy it while they still can before the fun stops as General Election draws near.

  130. Shamsul, do you know that what emgbrl said is true about who is guilty about the may 13 ’69 incident?

    I attended a talk recently where one of the speakers is a retired army personnel. He admitted that he was young at that time of may 13 and was acting under instructions to shoot at the chinese. He apologized for it and can now see that it was wrong.

    But umno keeps harping about it. They are the ones that caused it in the first place due to a power struggle and loss to opposition in the elections. Read the history Shamsul. And go deeper.

  131. I just saw the interview of Sdr. Lim and Karpal Singh on the detention and one of the curious thing I am wondering is why did Karpal Singh says that Minister of Law, Nazri overeacted.

    Why is the detention got to do with Minister of Law rather than Home Affairs? Was this really ultimately pushed by Nazri?

  132. Shamsul, how would you feel if you were a true native (or orang asli) and you see the country being plundered by pendatang from Indonesia etc and you dont share in the wealth? How would you feel?

    Who are the orang asli? Ask yourself Shamsul. I believe that even in Sarawak and SAbah, the feelings are coming out and rising. The resentment about the abuses of bn has reached an extent that is not tolerable.

  133. “…small nation of Malaysia has enforced a rigid version backed up by Shyriah,with it’s dual legal system thus denying its brothers and sisters the value of a real option to choose, and in this sense is intellectually an underclass when compared to Indonesia.” Greatstuff

    Diaper is right about the persecution of ethnic Chinese who happen also to be Christians by Indonesian Muslims condoned and in certain cases encouraged by government security forces. Violence against the Chinese in 1998 was unprecedented as thousands were raped and brutally murdered. Many fled abroad and sought refuge under the United Nation’s asylum laws. At least Malaysia has so far been spared such violence.

    Although Indonesians are free to practice religion of their choice, Muslim religious extremism is a very serious issue there. Burning of churches and the large scale killing of Christians were common during the riots of 1998 and still occur today in regions like Maluku where there are large numbers of Christians. Should the Indonesian economy go south the way it did in 1998, a repetition of the kind of racial violence we saw in 1998 is likely as the Indonesian pribumis took it out on the Chinese who numbered a mere 2% of the 200 plus million people and who are generally better off.

  134. Now Shamsul, ask yourself how you would feel if you were an Indian or Chinese born here, as were your parents, and yet an Indonesian can get more rights than you? How would you feel. Be hinest and try to analyse?

    How then would you explain the likes of Sanusi Junid and Khir Toyo who are of Indon descent and have greater rights than malaysian born Indians and Chinese despite the fact that they are recent migrants?

    Can you begin to even comprehend and understand what others feel?

    How about someone like Musa Aman who is the CM of Sabah? What happened to the promised Cm rootation in Sabah? Isn’t umno a newcomer in sabah? Why has the cm rotation stopped at Musa? Musa is a pakistani descendent. What about the Kadazan peoples there? How do you think they feel?

    Is Sabah a largely muslim state? How do you thinks the locals feel?

  136. emgbrl,

    Please don’t get too emotional, it will get us no where. Yes, we are all angry and frustrated. We truly are, but we must not take the law into our own hands. Be responsible, use the ballot box and cast your vote wisely. Let’s send the tremors and kick those buggers out!

  138. If BN thinks that they can silence the oppressed Indians by arresting HINDRAF leaders – they are seriously mistaken. The undercurrent of discontent is building up on the ground and make no mistake these HINDRAF leaders are going to enjoy cult status amongst the majority of Indians for their sacrifice to the community. Whilst many Indians will not agree with some of the contents of the HINDRAF’s memorandum put forth to British government especially on “ethnic cleansing” (in its most commonly understood definition) – there are many other valid points such as the economic marginalization of the Indians and indiscriminate destruction of temples etc. Rightfully or wrongfully HINDRAF’s actions has been the best thing that has happened to highlight the plight of the Indians in this country.

    By invoking the ISA on the champions of the poorer segments of the Malaysian society, the government has shown gross ineptitude in resolving the issues that now looms to further tarnish the image of the country.

  139. Dear Shamshul Anuar,
    You must be one of the Malays who is spoilt due to all the priveleges given ( entering universities without merit, discount for houses, upper hand on government contracts, and the list goes on and on). After reading this, at least wake up to the reality and please begin to understand why you pray 5 times a day. I believe that there is one God and such please don’t make a mockery of yourself by saying that the Malaysian Government is a just government. Let me refresh your memory and Shamshul, I’m not talking non-sense here, as I’m backing it with actual reflections as a Malaysian and reference from a book titled, “Affirmative Action Around the World” by Thomas Sowell from The Hoover Institution, Stanford University.
    Let me walk you down memory lane a little to show how systematically the government have been discriminating other races.

    The Malaysian ethnic distribution, from a 2001 statistics, found in Sowell (2004), gives the following breakdown of the 23 million people with the following breakdown:
    50% Malay (indigenous “sons and daughters of the soil”), 24% Chinese, 7% Indian. The remaining 19% of the population consists of Sikhs, Eurasians, etc.

    Under the New Economic Policy that was launched to improve the wealth of the indigenous Malays in 1970, the Malays were given more privileges than people from other races. These privileges included better business opportunities in terms of obtaining government contracts, where only companies owned by Malays can obtain such contracts. Another privilege given to the Malays was by imposing on the Housing Developers to give a 10% discount for Malay house buyers. These privileges have become the ‘birth right’ for the Malays until today.

    Further, in 1970 too, these privileges crept into the educational system where quotas were implemented for students to get admitted into local or public universities. These quotas were based on the ethnic breakdown like mentioned above. As an example, out of 1000 students who applies to study at the local universities, about 50% of the students must be Malays, about 24% Chinese, 7% Indians, etc. To add further misery to the non-Malays, in the same year too, the English language, which was the language used as the medium of instruction in schools and universities, was changed to the Malay language. This change further declined the number of Chinese and Indian students entering the public universities, as their mastery of the English language was better than that of the Malay language.

    At the end of the students’ high school year or what’s called the Form Five in Malaysia, all students are required to sit for a standardized National examination. To pass this National examination, it is compulsory for students to pass the Malay language subject, called ‘Bahasa Malaysia’. The meaning of Bahasa is language. Students who fail the Bahasa Malaysia will automatically fail the whole examination, even if they have scored A’s in all other subjects. This was the birth of the Malay agenda and hence a hidden national agenda. One can imagine what influence this can have on students, especially Chinese, Indian and other ethnic students. Since the National Economic Policy represents an agenda for the Malays and the ruling party, the teachers training colleges and the Universities are always under the scrutiny of the Education Ministry, who ensures that the National Economic Policies are followed and obeyed. As long as the New Economic Policy is followed ‘religiously’, it’s hard to improve the situation.

    When the teachers and the University Professors are not allowed to debate upon the educational system, they are forced to be neutral, otherwise they will be charged without any questions asked under the Internal Security Act (ISA), for causing conflict in the minds of people that could cause racial tension and leads to political instability. The ruling party, UMNO clearly is not interested in ending the National Economic Policy in 1990, as planned. As mentioned in Sowell (2004), we can see how comfortable the Malays are with the NEP that they feel very threatened by the very suggestion to end the NEP, a policy without dignity and full of shame.

    “Like so many other preferential programs, the New Economy Policy was initially designed to be temporary. It was set to expire in 20 years but, like those in India and Pakistan, has continued on long past the projected cut-off date. In a formal sense, the New Economic Policy ended in 1990 as planned, but was replaced by the National Development Policy, which continued many of the same policies under the new name. When in the year 2000 a Chinese political group suggested that preferences and quotas actually
    end, angry responses from the Malay public and the Malaysian government caused the suggestion to be withdrawn”. (p.63)

    My greatest discontent with Malaysia today is that the non-Malays are deprived from the most basic commodity in life, the education. Although many non-Malays who scored well in the National exams managed to get into the local universities, but it is still under the quota system. I pray that this inequality will be stopped in the near future.

    May God gives courage and strength to those discriminated to stand up and stand tall against injustice. God bless Malaysia.

  140. Shamsul, sadly its in the name of protecting your malays rights that umno claims to be the champion. Do you know how much of this has gone to help business cronies?

    How many times has petronas bailed out Bank Bumiputra which was forced to give loans to ‘preferred business partners’. Bank Bumi has been bailed out at least 2 times that I know of.

    Who does petronas rightly belong to? Not to the govt but to the rakyat. Remember that petronas gest its wealth from a mineral resource lying under malaysian soil. It belongs to the rakyat not to bn or umno to use or misuse as it pleases. Thats why you need checks and balances in parliament so the Opposition can watch what the ruling party does. The Opposition does not vote against measures that are good for the nation. They do oppose the excesses of the ruling party. And rightly so, for without them , the excesses would be far greater!

    Petronas bailed out misc when the former pm’s son needed to dispose of it.

    Petronas also bailed out Proton at one time.

    Penang Bridge is given to a Bumi company that will then sub-con to a Chinese company to do. So where do we get the skills to do such a project in future? The first bridge was done by the Koreans, and I guess we did not develop our bumi skills at that time either. Croniues get the money, and the project is marked up higher because bn has 92% of parliament. So even if it is marked up by 500%, you and I will be paying for it. Unfortunately we will be leaving this burden for our children and grandchildren and even their grandchildren to shoulder. At that time our children and their children and their children will be cursing us for not having made a stand when we should have.

    Why does the government buy weapons and fighter jets for billions of USD through a small firm run by Razak Baginda? Do you think Razak Baginda can finance a deal in the Billions? It should be a government to government deal or direct between our government and the seller. But if you do it like that, how to get and collect the kickbacks? So you use a Razak BAginda company. And you mark up the purchase price and expalin that it includes train ing etc etc. Jeez……….you buy all this? You mean Razak Baginda can arrange better training that the Govt can negotuate? Please Shamsul, think and read between the lines whats going on.

    Do you stop to think about what happened to Altantuya as she was the translator for the arms negotiations and knew what had transpired. See the consequences?

    See what umno and the people in umno are capable of because we gave them such power.

    Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely!

  141. More people like ‘Lakshy’ should join in to educate the typical Umo Bumi like Shamsul who are still very ignorant about the problems faced by the non bumi.Exactly,how would you feel (Shamsul) when the 3rd generation and even the 4th generation born Chinese here are treated worse off than the newly arrived migrants from Indonesia,The Philippines,Bangladesh,Pakistan simply because they are your abang adik muslims?It rubs salt into sore wounds when most of these migrants are unskilled and lowly educated.Does this discrimination policy augur well for the bright future of Malaysia?

  142. US demands due process for arrested Malaysian activists

    “Our expectation as a government is that these individuals would be provided the full protections under Malaysian law, that they would be given due process, that they would be accorded all the rights accorded to any other citizen, and that this be done in a speedy and transparent manner,” State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said.

    http://news.sg.msn.com/regional/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1147062

  143. YB

    People like Shamsul knows all the injustices. No one in his/her right mind will not know it. Need not go panjang lebar trying to convince them.

    Hindraf leaders are no superhumans. They just spoke the simple truth. The only different is they are berani enough to say it.

    The goverment also knows it. How can one stop one from saying 1+1 does not equals 2? The formula is ISA.

  144. Dear Malaysians,
    It is hard to educate those Malays who benefited from UMNO’s racial discriminatory policies. It is like asking them to bite the hand that fed and clothed them!!! Imagine after giving the Malays the NEP TONGKAT/PUTING for > 30 years, suddenly you ask them to walk without it or quit cold turkey!! Mana boleh!!!Sure get withdrawal symptoms what!!!
    UMNO Ministers like NAZRI PONDAN,Zainuddin Mamak, Kerismuddin only can grandstand in their “kampung”. Outside their “kampung Malaysia”, they know that their keris has no value againts nuclear weapons of mass destruction.So please stop the UMNO-BN crap about “ketuanan Melayu” when the Tuan is permanently walking with the TONGKAT/PUTING SUSU!!!What a disgrace!Tak-da malu-ke??

  146. In 1999, the Chinese community presented the Suqiu document to the Government demanding fairness in Malaysia. The Chinese community was branded as Communist by Mahathir.

    In 2007, the Indian community demanding fairness in Malaysia. They are branded as terrorist by Badawi.

    The saddest fact is : IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO OVERTHROW THE BN GOVERNMENT THROUGH ELECTION as pointed out by EC Chairman.

    Do you think Malaysia still has a future?

  147. UMNO has the perfect solution for those who threaten the power of the KERIS, the ISA of course which is their weapon against MASS DISSENT ie shut everybody up in the name of national security when anything poses a threat to UMNO’s security. They also have the Sedition Laws, Police ACT as their supplementary weapons. Surprisingly all UMNO politicians & cronies have developed life-long immunity to these laws so they are now only applied to helpless common citizens. MALAYSIA BOLEH!!!

  148. Dear Shamshul Anuar,

    You have stated that HINDRAF incites the feelings of “Hindus against the Malays”. Please prove to us when this was ever the case. And kindly, please do not point to the mainstream media which spins fairy tales better than Hans Christian Anderson, the Grimm Brothers, and others.

    Ordinary Indians do not need HINDRAF to “incite them”. All they need is to see the injustice carried out by politicians. If anything “incited” Indians to protest by the tens of thousands, it would have been the most recent temple demolishment in Kampung Rimba Jaya. Who was responsible for such an incitement? Could it have been one particular Chief Minister? (see “Fracas at the temple” http://www.malaysiakini.tv/?vid=1535).

    Also, if anything could have “incited” Indians, it would have been the politicians who chose to hold their AGM on Deepavali. Yes, the very same hypocritical politicians who have charged 5 HINDRAF leaders under the ISA.

    No, HINDRAF does not incite people on the basis of their race or religion. If they criticize anyone, it would be politicians who are responsible for this mess.

    Ah, but you may say that UMNO politicians are Malays and Muslims. Is this true? No. UMNO does not equal Malays nor does it equal Muslims either. UMNO is merely a political organization which happens to use race and increasingly religion as the cornerstone of their policies. It however is not the only political party where you will find large numbers of Malays and Muslims. You will also see large numbers of them in PKR and PAS.

    What HINDRAF has spoken of is the policies of UMNO (and to a lesser extent that of MIC, which they see as a lackey). It is only UMNO politicians who wave a keris, and not PKR or PAS politicians. You don’t see HINDRAF criticizing PKR or PAS.

    You say, that when Hishammudin did not threaten anyone with the keris. But you have conveniently left out the part where UMNO Perlis delegate Hashim Suboh asked Hishamuddin when he was going to use it.

    Let us not forget that our current Deputy Prime Minister also once threatened to use the keris, which you can read about in Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketuanan_Melayu

    On the ISA, you say that the “silent majority agree to it”. We may dispute your understanding of statistics in this matter. But as Mahatma Gandhi once put it, “In matters of conscience the Law of the Majority have no place”.

  149. So far my predictions have been uncannily correct – including the emergence of an organisation as hindraf 2 years ago.
    Now here`s another one:

    If BN is returned to power after the next GE, the constitution will be ammended to make M`sia an Islamic State. They will have to do that to prevent this :
    This award goes to the state mufti, Datuk Haji Ahmad Alawi Haji Adnanof of non-Islamic Sabah in a non-Islamic Malaysia for issuing a Taliban-styled fatwa (religious edict) against the erection of religious statutes in Sabah state.
    http://thieneleventhhour.blogspot.com/2007/12/worst-bigot-award.html
    Then hudud law will replace secular law.

  150. We must be united together to vote BN out. It will be just waste of time to write long paragraphs to attack back one stupid idoit who dont use his brain to analyze.

    We will loose him anyway. But try to put the words to strongly send the message to all our friends whether bumi or non-bumi, we need a change in the present government and make and decide a rapid change to deny 2/3 majority in the highest chamber that’s the Parliament.

    Our rights as a citizen is drawn down in our federal constitution. So in order to get back the rights we need more opposition MPs in the Parliament. So work on this element and excel deeper to inform all our friends that we vote for the opposition if you want to gain back all your rights and freedom.

    I wish to send regrets and sympathy to the 5 great hero’s who have been detained under the most draconian law ISA. No 5 for the Hindus means great victory. All of us are going to see how well the No 5 is going to work from yesterday for our great intellectual persons.

    The ballot is in our hands at the coming GE to decide the next government. So from the various incidents which happened to our fellow Malaysians by now everyones will agree that we need major and rapid change.

    So cast your vote for the opposition parties (PAS,DAP,PRK) and give them the opportunity after 50 years to deny the 2/3 majority in the Parliament.

  152. I can’t see why when the Hindraf leaders lodged police report/s against PM Abdulah Badawi recently for charging that the organisation’s links to the ‘Liberation Of Tamil Tigers’ which is of course unfounded and the complainants ended up in a cells…..

    Oh yes I remember that the police is UMNO and UMNO is the police. Silly me…

  153. Well, all I can say is its saddening to see the current government taking an easy approach to tackle this problem which is by putting the Hindraf leaders under ISA instead of actually addressing the problem and acknowledging that the marginalization claims is true and something will be done.Furthermore,putting the guys in ISA will only aggrevate this situation and I hope the Indian community is smart enough not to fall into that trap.My prayers go out to the 5 Hindraf leaders and they’re families.

  155. This whole exercise of detaining this five guys is for the sole purpose of intimidating “someone”. They know very well the actions of this five guys are far from being any threat to national security. As the Chinese saying goes, “chop the chicken heads to frighten the monkeys”. Because they know that “someone”,if he harness the support from Hindraf, can pose a real threat to them at the next GE. So, by detaining this 5 Hindraf guy, they are sending a warning that they will take action if anyone supports the Hindraf movement.

  157. DAILY EXPRESS NEWS
    Police report over Fatwa

    09 December, 2007

    Kota Kinabalu: A police report has been lodged against Sabah Mufti, Datuk Haji Ahmad Alawi Haji Adnan for issuing a “fatwa” (religious decree) that forbids religious statues or replicas of human and animals in public places close to the road.

    Kanul Gindol, political secretary to the Parti Keadilan Rakyat Vice-President Datuk Dr Jeffrey Kitingan, said in a statement the fatwa issued in July last year could incite hatred and animosity in a plural society like Malaysia. He said a copy of the Mufti’s Fatwa letter together with other related letters were now being circulated in websites, including on the Malaysia Today website.

    Kanul said he lodged the report with the Karamunsing district police headquarters. Keadilan said the Mufti’s action went against the Federal Constitution which guaranteed the freedom of religion. He also urged the police and ACA to look into whether an abuse of power or corruption had occurred, believing that it was issued in relation to the stopped Mazu project that may have prompted Tan Sri Chong’s resignation from the State Cabinet as Deputy Chief Minister-cum-State Tourism and Environment Minister.

  158. GodFather,

    Lee Kuan Yew read LAW in UK attained Double Starred First Class honours…

    in Malaysia, Abdullah cannot count, fail statistic and worst of all fail to attend meeting with open eyes, begging for a ticket to send ass-tro-nut to space and has a bunch of morons in his league sucking Malaysian bloods…

    Abdullah, you should hand-over your IC as you’re fail to be a Malaysian, because of you Malaysia lost face, lost $$$, lost their land and lost their MARUAH… since you had bought an Istana in Australia, please exile there…

    we dont need UMNO and BN…

  159. from wiki

    The stated purpose of the ISA was to deter communist activity in Malaysia during the Malayan Emergency and afterwards. The first Prime Minister of Malaysia, Tunku Abdul Rahman, defined the purpose of the act as to “be used solely against the communists…My Cabinet colleagues and I gave a solemn promise to Parliament and the nation that the immense powers given to the government under the ISA would never be used to stifle legitimate opposition and silence lawful dissent”. The third Prime Minister, Tun Hussein Onn, stated at the same time that his administration had enforced the act only with a view to curbing communist activity, and not to repress “lawful political opposition and democratic citizen activity”.[1]

    Look at the abuse of ISA going on now stifle democratic citizen activity!

  160. I feel the PM should go watch “The Great Dictator”
    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Charlie_Chaplin#The_Great_Dictator_.281940.29
    “I’m sorry, but I don’t want to be an Emperor – that’s not my business. I don’t want to rule or conquer anyone. I should like to help everyone, if possible — Jew, gentile, black man, white. We all want to help one another; human beings are like that. We want to live by each other’s happiness, not by each other’s misery. We don’t want to hate and despise one another. In this world there’s room for everyone and the good earth is rich and can provide for everyone.

    The way of life can be free and beautiful. But we have lost the way. Greed has poisoned men’s souls, has barricaded the world with hate, has goose-stepped us into misery and bloodshed. We have developed speed but we have shut ourselves in. Machinery that gives abundance has left us in want. Our knowledge has made us cynical, our cleverness hard and unkind. We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery, we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost….

  161. The Done Master have done a bloody great job in craving out this country future and those fools in the system believes him. Though now they are super rich and player of the same level with other countries VVIP, yet selling off their lands for short terms thrills does not justify their ownership rights.
    National constitutional policies have been amended too biased that it’s no longer shows that these owners are aware of their wrong involvement into the system.
    ISA will be forever the last tactic to apply to killed off any potential harm to their system.
    In near future, ISA will be the common subject over in the coffeeshops that they become less a worry subject for the public.
    Malaysian will have a new generations of people that goes underground to fight for their own rights.
    Those fool lander owners will soon wake up a day too late to realized their foollish,selfish,greedy actions ended up they are the biggest loser.

  162. nowadays, hari hari hujan lebat. beside bersih/hindraf/ISA, DAP jangan lupa to help those flood victims in malaysia. some of them are ur supporters too.

    dear shamshul anuar… aku ni color blind!
    bila pilih sokongan party, i look at their fairness, equality, performance and capabilities.

    dari artikel kassim ahmad…
    Saya orang Melayu. Saya sayang kepada orang Melayu. Tetapi saya tidak boleh sokong orang Melayu yang bersikap fanatik dan perkauman, kerana kita semuanya anak-cucu Adam, makhluk Tuhan yang Tuhan muliakan, sama ada kita Melayu, Cina atau India atau suku-kaum lain. Sebagai makluk Tuhan, kita layak dihormati. Kita pula rakyat Malaysia yang sedang membangunkan negara kita supaya maju dan dihormati di seluruh dunia.

    Saya ingin merayu kepada saudara-saudara saya orang Melayu dan kepada pemimpin-pemimpin Melayu memegang teguh kepada janji kita menerima kehadiran rakyat kita dari kaum India dan kaum-kaum lain yang telah menjadikan Malaysia tanahair mereka. Saya juga merayu kepada saudara-saudara saya dari suku-kaum lain supaya mengikat persaudaraan yang teguh dan bekerjasama dengan orang Melayu dan pemimpin-pemimpin Melayu”…

  163. The clamp down has begun. All opposition parties are now terrorists! Now they have the excuse to put all opposition members in jail. Their motto is “if you are not with us, you are against us”. Sounds familiar?

    The Chinese and Indians will be marginalised now that BN has shown its true colors in winning the GE with Malay votes alone. They don’t need the Chinese and Indians. In fact they only need what is in the EPF. Notice that now it is harder and harder to take money out from EPF? If there are any changes to the EPF rules, should’nt we as the contributors have a say?

    They are targeting mission schools first, then it will be the churches and temples. It is a slow but steady act of discrimination.

    What is the MCA and MIC doing? Still spectators? Don’t they realise that they too are irrelevant in UMNO’s quest for power?

  164. TIME FOR CHANGE

    50 years is ENOUGH
    Vote For A Change
    Vote For Any Opposition
    Give Them A Chance To Change For A Better Malaysia
    Remember bn Is A Useless Grouping Of Self Serving, Corrupt, Dictator, Power Crazy, Racist, Kris waving, etc, etc type of parties.

  165. mic and mca are hoping to fool enough people so they can continue to enjoy the scraps from their master’s table.

    Good doggie….beg nicely….stand on your hind toes while you beg, and you may just get some meat on the bone….otherwise…only bone for you. Now go jaga the gate and bark at the lori sampah dog!

    Keep up the good work mca/mic. Keep up your begging.

  166. ON the sudden link of Hindraf leaders to terrorists speaks volume about the efficiency of our police and intelligence. So many years they cant find out anything and suddenly within days they can do so much.

    Are they great or are they just simply great?

  167. PM still treat the peoples like 3 years old children.when he said “i don’t like street demonstration” he is expecting it must stop just like a father comanding a three years old child.c’mon,we are grown up and no longer a child.i think the government should grow up and behave like a professional body to deal with problem.

  169. found 1 date is good to have a walk to Istana Negara…
    2112 after Friday prayer…

    hope this time would be 1,000,000 of Malaysian will join the walk…
    let call it “Walk for Free Malaysia”, not racial issue, political party involvement… we’re just a plain Jane Malaysian… :-)

  170. Hello darkness, my old friend
    I’ve come to talk with you again
    Because a vision softly creeping
    Left its seeds while I was sleeping
    And the vision that was planted in my brain
    Still remains
    Within the sound of silence

    And the sign said, “The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls
    And tenement halls”
    And whispered in the sounds of silence

    ~~~~~~~~~

    When the people in power cannot argue with facts and cannot prove beyond reasonable doubts what others did was a threat to the nation, they took the easy path – used ISA.

    ???

  171. WASHINGTON (Thomson Financial) – The US demanded Thursday that Malaysia provide fair treatment to five leaders of a rights group held under a security law that allows for indefinite detention without trial.

    The five from …

    …The Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, a US non-profit law firm that helps defend freedom of all religions, charged that the destruction of Hindu temples — some built before the start of the British colonial period almost two centuries ago — could be an attempt to erase Hindu heritage in Malaysia……

  177. PM claims that he has “big ears” just like all his BN down lines. They hear and they read what we say and write BUT then they will ignore them. For BN it is very simple “Barking dogs will not bite”. “They only need barking dogs but not those which bites” At least it was the case for last 50 years.

    Therefore our comments, arguments, statistics, findings, preaching etc, are all simply hearsay for them.

    Because, no international governments or organisations will know about these. If they knew, those international governments or organisations may think that it just an handful people are dissatisfied with the ruling government, which is very common in every country.

    These are ineffective course of action.

    What Hindraf had pointed out was that it is not the handful people are dissatisfied but almost the whole community. Even the ordinary MIC members took part in the said rally despite of the threat of arrest and warning from the MIC.

    Hindraf action shaken the BN government. BN was forced to deal with it very seriously, to the extent they lied to justify their draconian action. Everyone knows of that. Even the international governments and organisation are aware of it. They are just waiting for the evidence to be published. But now BN don’t have to publish as the accused are in detention. Further you know how the court system was made to function since Mahathir’s time.

    We should react the same way and style the Hindraf has carried out. Such action would shake the BN further but will maintain the country’s unity and stability.

    Each of you can highlight your personal dissatisfaction. Not necessarily to follow Hindraf.

    You should not carry any banners. Just print your concern on your T-shirt or shirt [like President Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe] and celebrate your New Year. This is not a politically motivated campaign or racial campaign. It simply to highlight the PEOPLE’S CONCERN. Please give a thought of it.

  179. the arrest was completely absurd, this shows how insecured the gov feels when someone steps up and say ” u are doing the wrong thing, LETS CHANGE”

    When they say the majority silent has started to come out to say their displeasure of the rallies, how much support will the government give to the “majority” supporters FOR the rallies?

    Another simple and childish mind game. NOT WORKING!

  181. They can arrest 5, 10, 200,500 or even 5000 under the ISA for nonsensical reasons but this serves only to add combustion to the fire of rage amongst the millions in the minority races. How is UMNO going to govern a country that has mostly gone against it. After the ISA what if peaceful street protest continues. Has UMNO the grit to shoot every one of the millions in the country who thinks that it is time for them to leave. If UMNO wins again this election and rule this country you can safely conclude that Malaysia is a goner. If the Indian community still vote in the BN which is actually UMNO they have only themselves to blame.

  182. “So cast your vote for the opposition parties (PAS,DAP,PRK) and give them the opportunity after 50 years to deny the 2/3 majority in the Parliament.”

    That was the hope – before HINDRAF demonstration changed all that! The Indians have always been opportunistic. Had they timed the demonstration to take place a year or two ago – after all they are among the minority ethnic groups marginalized by this government – it it would not have alienated and frightened the Malays back into the arms of UMNO! Now candidates would be lucky if they manage to retain their deposits!

    The boomerang effect of such demonstration is too obvious now to ignore. The use of the ISA against the HINDRAF leaders would not alienate the Malays. Forget PKR as they are a bunch of losers who fail to make headway when in UMNO.

  184. Dear readers.

    I refer to remarks about me. I stand by what I said. I am not playing to the gallery. I just the truth. Hindraf did play with fire. It claimed that Malaysia( meaning UMNO led Govt) practised ethnic cleansing against Indians.

    It committed what Malays called as “khianat” by spreading lies vs its own govt. Any govt worth its salt will react. Hindraf tried to create animosity between Malays and indians. Why Hindraf leaders chose not to tell the Indians about surau being demolished in Selangor. I told my indian friends about surau being demolished( illegally built) . They stared at me. The response is this “We do not know this”.

    Contrary to what some people said, the arrest is not about the manifastation of a weak and threatened govt. It shows a leader has guts to act. Imagine if these fanatics not stopped. Are we willing to witness another May 13.

    it is not about arrogance when I said that UMNO can rule the country on its own. It is the truth. But as a Malay leader once said ” Tak apalah bagi orang India menang di kawasan Melayu. Kalau tidak satu wakil India pun tak ada di Parlimen”.

    Is this the characteristics of a race that encourages ethnic cleansing. So much hatred vs UMNO that not many in this blog are willing to condemn the baseless accusation by Hindraf.

    At least UMNO still consider the feeling of non Malays. As for Burn , he “rayu” that Malay leaders to care about other races too. Is that not the Malay leaders have been doing. Is not allowing non Malay politicians to win in Malay areas a sign of accepting other races, a rarity in this world. Is not accepting and funding vernacular schools a sign of magnamity by UMNo leaders.

    Mr Lim kit siang and Burn or any of those who are fond of criticizing others should sit back and think about “Mandarin is required” still rampant in newspapers, effectivelly putting non Chinese to disadvantages.

    Whatever dissatisfaction by Hindraf, it committed a mistake by not being honest. You told the whole world about nonexistent ethnic cleansing and you expect your PM going to be lenient with you. What a wishful thinking.

    As for Mr Lakshi’s remark, there is nothing lawful on what Hindraf said. It lied about its own govt, incited the feeling of Indians through lies( such as not telling them that surau were also being demolished, not just temples). ISA is an effective tool here. It serves as a reminder that a powerful tool is available on those who abuse freedom to spread lies.

    As for embgrl, please do mind your mannerism. There is no need to insult by calling names. I hope you have a minimun standard of intelligence to be able to put a decent point without calling names.

  185. We appeal to the UN to declare a resolution against the UMNO-led government of Malaysia for the illegal and undemocratic detention under ISA. There is no difference between what UMNO is doing and the junta of Myanmar and apartheid South Africa. We implore world leaders like Nelson Mandela to speak out against these detentions in Malaysia. We ask the leading nations of the world to impose traveling sanctions against UMNO leaders and also to freeze all their overseas assets. International pressure must be placed on UMNO to stop all their undemocratic, inhumane, corrupt, unjust actions and practices.

  186. “Forget PKR as they are a bunch of losers who fail to make headway when in UMNO.” – DiaperHead

    I think that’s a very unfair statement. With a very committed team made up of educated guys like Nathaniel Tan, Khalid Ibrahim, Sivarasa, Anwar Ibrahim, Din Merican and Ivy leaguers, you call them a bunch of “losers” ?

    I believe they have a mission and a vision all out to create a multiracial and liberal Malaysia.

  189. I think he was referring to the likes of Anwar Ibrahim. Nathaniel Tan is certainly not one of those. Nor is Sivarasa, nor Din Merican.

    PKR is still essentially a splinter group of UMNO. Their leaders are tainted with UMNO’s racist policies, aren’t they not?

  191. AAB once said: “Work with me, don’t work for me …”

    Now I know what it means:
    To work according to his ‘rules’, fancies and lip service promises. And there’s no promise of being rewarded – fair election, eradication of corruptions & cronyism, racial harmony, HUMAN RIGHTS, meritocracy in education, freedom of place for religious worship, fairness of gomen work tenders for all.

    If you work for him, he has to reward you legally, which means all of the above mentioned rewards.

    That’s exactly what he meant for us rakyat.

  192. saudara shamshul anuar,
    bila u kata…
    “Mr Lim kit siang and Burn or any of those who are fond of criticizing others should sit back and think about “Mandarin is required” still rampant in newspapers, effectivelly putting non Chinese to disadvantages.”…

    i don’t like to critize others for nothin. i only critize bad leadership, aka… PM, DPM, menteris, wakil rakyats, town councillors etc, for making other malaysians suffer due to their ketuanan and self interest.

    i do not care who waves the keris…
    i do not care about mandarin language or whatever…
    i did not agree to hindraf demo, due to what is written on the memo. but i do agree if they demo for their rights as a malaysian…
    i do not care about ur remarks, but you have rights for ur opinions.
    i don’t like to call others, lu melayu, lu cina, lu india, lu binatang, lu talak suka, lu boleh balik cina india…
    i do not care what bangsa you are…
    i don’t like to diffenciate skin colors. we are all the same. darah semerah…
    i do support NEP! but for all poor malaysian. not only to certain bangsa.

    bad leadership, when you are not color blind.
    im here with DAP/PKR for fairness, equality and as malaysian.
    no more bumi, non bumi whatever.

  195. Samy Vellu says MIC have helped give out 4,000 loans to 4,000 last year alone. He says they were approached by Indians and MIC has helped issue the licenses. He said this on BBC.

    On the other hand we have Uthayakumar saying the business of scrap metal has always been dominated by Indians! But now the UMNO led government has frozen such licenses with the intention of giving them out to Malay companies. Could this have triggered the protests?

    Another Indian engineer when interviewed said that he faced no problems, that he was never unfairly treated. Another said that he believes things would not change unless there is a change in government.

  196. Diaperhead said: Limkamput! Wrong English – “effort” and not “efforts”.

    That was the hope – before HINDRAF demonstration changed all that! The Indians have always been opportunistic. Had they timed the demonstration to take place a year or two ago – after all they are among the minority ethnic groups marginalized by this government – it it would not have alienated and frightened the Malays back into the arms of UMNO! Now candidates would be lucky if they manage to retain their deposits! Diaperhead

    Please don’t insult the Indians. You also show poor thinking skill. How can a race labeled by you as being opportunistic be marginalized? One more thing, you use too many dashes which are signs of inability to write complex sentences. From now on, please write at the level you are comfortable with. Some examples for you: Diaperhead is an idiot. He can’t think straight. He likes to insult others. He should be named coconut head.

  197. limkamput,

    I see you’re back to your old self again!

    This is not the place to be calling names because somebody does not share your point of view. I thought that was made clear by none other than YB Kit – who chose to make his warning admittedly meant for all posters at the bottom of your posting, not once but twice?

    Listen up limkamput!

    If you have nothing to contribute to this blog, take your ass somewhere else. Posters can do without the filth that you are spewing. Also stop littering this blog with your stupid comments.

  200. Read how the world view(BBC) on Malaysia when introduce our country,

    Malaysia has some of the toughest censorship laws in the world. The authorities exert substantial control over the media and can impose restrictions in the name of national security

    Ethnic Malays comprise some 60% of the population. Chinese constitute around 26%; Indians and indigenous peoples make up the rest. The communities coexist in relative harmony, although there is little racial interaction.

    Although since 1971 Malays have benefited from positive discrimination in business, education and the civil service, ethnic Chinese continue to hold economic power and are the wealthiest community. The Malays remain the dominant group in politics while the Indians are among the poorest.

  201. Diaperhead, big cry baby, why keeping running to Sdr Kit? I have left you alone after Sdr Kit advised us to move on. Apparently you think that was the sign of weakness. I can go where I want and write what I want and there is nothing you can do about it, you stupid coconut head.

  202. Diaperhead said: Also stop littering this blog with your stupid comments.

    This is so interesting! We are here to condemn and criticise BN and UMNO for being blind and insensitive. Diapherhead @ stupid coconut head, you ought to see your own irony. You like to label me of spewing stupid comments. Who started all these again after I have heeded Sdr Kit’s advice. If you can’t take the heat, just learn to shut up. The same warning goes to DarkAss and Condemn Singh.

  209. laifoong, ya, you are right. correct my english. did he do the same to others. I see rotten english everywhere but there is no comment from him. Look, if you can’t be fair, just shut up too. Where were you when i get all the insult? YOU too have tried to belittle me by using the word hollow sophistication in a sacratic way on me. You people go ahead and try to get Sdr Kit to kick me out.

  212. Dear limkamput,

    Would you not agree – would you deny – that once, not too long ago, although you did not specifically correct any part of my English, you however did advise me broadly that my English/writing was in your opinion “atrocious”, which I accepted your criticism without complaint that you were not being fair in not similarly advising others even though you see rotten english everywhere, and certainly without rancour, but in fact with a touch of gratitude of being at least able to learn a new word “atrocious” in improvement of my vocabulary? :)

  214. Jeffrey, I think most of us can’t see our own biasness. When I comment on your English, it was made without malice. Apparently you have held on to that. What Diaperhead did on me was on purpose and if you can’t see that, then please don’t come here to talk about justice. I wanted to read what you wrote earlier, but I was agitated not because of your poor English. It was your carelessness which made reading difficult. There is no doubt in mind, and I say this with sincerity, that your English is much better than me and many others here.

  215. Burn, ini bukan soal saya nak hentam orang lain shj. Selepas dinasihati Sdr Kit, saya telah pun mendiam diri walaupun mereka terus hentum saya tiap tiap hari. Mulai hari ini, mari kita sama-sama lihat apa akan berlaku. Khususnya Darkhorse, kepalanya memang macam lembu, kerana kuda pun lebih cerdik.

  216. Folks, stay on the thread. I would be both pleased and grateful for views, whether assenting or dissenting, that could add to the breadth of our understanding on the gravity of the issue at hand. Even a brief opinion or two would better reflect the level of support or otherwise for the issues raised rather than long lines that lead us to nowhere.

    THe following seems clear enough to me:
    1) AAB is simply not his own man; someone else is really ‘helping’ him make all those difficult decisions; maybe the IGP, AG, CJ, Minister of Mis-Information, SIL, lobbyists etc.
    2) AAB himself looks so worn-out, listless, clueless and careless.
    3) AAB neither shows a grasp of the issues or facts, nor does he seem to have accurate or detailed info oftentimes when making decisions.
    4) AAB’s calibre is not suspect; it’s clearly abject. AAB will never ever get near to world-class even if he tries to work 24 hours daily instead of dozing off so much. He does not have the physical stamina, the mental discipline or strength to be even close to second-class lower. AAB’s report card, as it stands, isn’t even third-class or sufficient to qualify for a ‘general degree’; I dare say he is a total and absolute failure as PM! (Arguable only for the label ‘total and absolute’; a miserable failure nonetheless.)
    5) AAb would snatch the title of “WOrst PM in malaysia” by a mile, even from Tun M whose biggest career mistake is not packing Musa, Ghafar or Anwar off but appointing AAB when his vision was cataracted and his mind less than salubrious! Now we know Tun M’s calibre too, not just from all the corruption scandals and financial waste and mismanagement but recent public revelations show that his character stinks if the “Lingam videos” are true. (It is noteworthy that so far, several months since the explosive revelations by Anwar, poor Tun has not denied, disputed or cast any doubt on his ‘key’ role in those schemes and machinations. As lawyers say and, I think, Eusoff Chin stated so pompously in one of his judgments, that anything not ‘denied, contradicted or challenged’ will be deemed true or at the very least have an aura of truth and believability.

    Perhaps, somebody else care to comment.

    I maintain the ISA is unconscionable, untenable and irrational! Whilst Undergrad 2 is correct that the ISA comes in handy at a time of the threat of ISlamic fanaticism, our records show that ISA is more a tool for political intimidation and persecution more than anything else. My argument is that, given our history and UMNO’s immaturity, we cannot leave daggers (or kerises) for murderers, nor money for robbers. Therefore, I strongly support the abolition of the ISA. Fanatics and deviants of other kinds must be dealt with differently, under appropriate laws, but nowhere should they be accosted and incarcerated without their basic human right of a trial under a credible judical system and subject to all judicious principles of the Rule of law.

  217. Since when correcting Limkamput’s English an insult?

    Limkamput – he who claims other posters don’t know how to write English, that he can and that others could not and are stupid and that he is smart? Remember that limkamput? Or are you now going to deny you ever said that. Don’t even think of sucking up to Jeffrey. You called his writing “hollow sophistication” and you call him “stupid”.

    So here goes another one.

    “…your English is much better than me and many others here.” limkamput

    Shouldn’t it be “better than mine”?

  218. How many of you anti-ISA people here actually cried/wept/condemned the ISA when the alleged KMM/JI people were taken to Kamunting? Honestly.

    And I swear I heard nothing from the US asking Malaysian Government for “due process” for the alleged KMM/JI people.

    What actually did these KMM/JI people did? No one of us know, yet most of us simply believe everything said by the then Home Minister/IGP.

    Compare it to “I can’t rule out violence”.

  219. ‘I maintain the ISA is unconscionable, untenable and irrational! Whilst Undergrad 2 is correct that the ISA comes in handy at a time of the threat of ISlamic fanaticism, our records show that ISA is more a tool for political intimidation and persecution more than anything else.’ ENDANGERED HORNBILL

    I am for the repeal of all suppressive legislation and not only the Internal Security Act (ISA) although that is not going to happen under the present ruling coalition.

    I tried giving some context to the Internal Security Act (ISA) in order to offer some justification for its use post 9/11. In the years between 1957 and 1971 when Tunku was Prime Minister, I believe the ISA was rarely used. Is it not an irony that Mahathir who criticized the Tunku for being soft with the Chinese in 1969, and two Prime Ministers later campaigned on the platform of a freer society releasing on one occassion the most number of detainees held under the ISA when he became PM , chose to retain this piece of legislation and was later to use it against a record number of opposition leaders and political activists in what is now popularly referred to as the Operation Lallang in 1987? Mahathir is really a study in contradictions but that is another matter for another day.

    Maybe Jeffrey QC can look into the number of instances when the ISA was used after 1957, by which Prime Minister, when and the reasons why it was used and against whom? He can do that and report here. Hopefully YB Kit sees the need to create a thread on the history of the Internal Security Act and build a case for its complete and immediate repeal. This is a lot better than having to deal with someone who is doing his utmost to destabilize the discussion on such an important issue.

    Much as I like to see the ISA repealed, the world today has been so drastically changed by events of 9/11 that doing away completely with the Act would be foolish. It is almost like fools rush in where angels fear to tread. The U.S. Department of State has characterized Mahathir when he was PM as a ‘tin-pot dictator’ and called for him to repeal the Act. However, U.S. officials no longer called for the same today because the United States has its own ISA – the U.S. Patriots Act. The U.S. has taken a leaf out of our experience and passed similar legislation of its own.

    Today, the government of a country referred to proudly by its citizens as the ‘Land of the Free and Home of the Brave’ the greatest democracy in the world, can detain lawfully persons for being involved in terrorist activities without charge and without access to counsel. The United States is not the latest country to join the club. Many other countries have followed suit. This is a post 9/11 world.

    Perhaps a better approach for us should be to incorporate safeguards into the law to protect innocent victims who are not terrorists or involved in terrorist activities from the misuse of power rather than having it repealed completely.

    Should we do away with the flu vaccine just because the vaccine has been known to cause serious side effects including deaths in unusual circumstances?

  220. “laifoong, ya, you are right. correct my english. did he do the same to others. ” limkamput

    But other posters never claimed to be good in their English and never called others ‘stupid’ and ‘spineless’ and ‘coconut head’ and ‘retard’ like you just did!!

    If you’re good at dishing it out to others then you must be able to receive! You don’t think so?

    How about writing something relevant to this thread?

  222. Shamsul,

    You will hear many voices here that disagree with you. Being a thinking person, I urge you to consider why so many can feel so strongly about these issues.

    And put yourself in the position of the Kadazans whose land/wealth has been raped to prosper the malays.

    Put yourself in the position of the 31 jailed for a trumped up charge of attempted murder. How to prove this in court? It wont stand up? Its just to intimidate the indians and any others who plan to conduct similar rallies.

    Put yourself in the place of the family members of those held under the ISA. Theya re fighting for the betterment of their families future. Cant teh PM handle it in a better manner.

  225. Shamsul.

    Since you touched on the issue again, let me elaborate further for the benefit of others too.

    When a private or public company is about to close down, it pays retrenchment benefits to its employees as per what is provided for in the employment act.

    When a company is taken over by another, the workers are entitled to be paid some handsome compensation too.

    Now lets go to the estates where many indian labourers were provided free accommodation, electricity and water by the estate owners. Quality of education was poor and estates were in remote areas with poor road access to go outside. So when one completes his primary education in a Tamil school, the child generally helps his parents in the estates. No further education.

    When these estate owners realize they can reap huge profits by converting to commercial land, they do so. And what happens to the indians who lived in these estates? They get displaced. They are poorly educated, and have no housing. What happens to them? Are their rights protected by anyone? By right they should be provided for by the estate owners, but who cares? the Govt? MIC? Sadly they have no one looking after their rights They are displaced from this area. Compare with what the Felda Settlers get! I know many who are working in Kl and make token trips to Felda schemes in Pahang. They are mighty landlords today. (To side track, all of this by the way is not computed in calculating how much the bumi equity is today. I wonder why?)

    Do you wonder why there are so many Indians working as security guards all over the country? Do you wonder why so many indians end up in gangs? The gangs promise to look after their families if anything happens to them, and they honour their words. This is more than is being done by the government or the estate owners who employed them previously.

    Hope you do think about these issues and others when you think about why there was such a large indian presence in Kl on 25th Nov.

    And please remember that the court order preventing an assembly was in front of the British High Comm.

    Why did they attack Indians who had gathered in Batu Caves on a festival night……..Karthikai? And the papers now report it as an illegal gathering in Batu Caves. What a lovely spin! And you Shamsul like many other gullible readers accept this type of brainwashing. Thats what makes it even worse.

    The Malays today believe they need the crutchesd because umno tells them so every day of their life.

    Shamsul, I suggest you call your daughter or niece bodoh everytime you see her and see what the long term effects are.

    If you wont do this to your children, why do you allow your government to do it to you!

  226. “I refer to remarks about me. I stand by what I said. I am not playing to the gallery. I just the truth. Hindraf did play with fire. It claimed that Malaysia( meaning UMNO led Govt) practised ethnic cleansing against Indians.” Shamsul Anuar

    Shamsul, only god know the truth, as for you, you just told the truth on behalf of UMNO, and that’s the lies. I must say I am sorry, lame lies. What is the different of what you said here compares to what we read in the mainstream newspaper, it is crap! You go and stand by what you said, because that is not going to convince anyone of us that Abdullah has the guts to do the right things, but we are convince he sure have the guts to commit all great sins of mankind. I must also warn you, that you don’t know yet what is the meaning playing with the fire, and you will be naive to think ISA will put off the fire every time there’s a little sparks. ISA is the fire, Shamsul, don’t you get it? We are lucky the only thing that burn here is our saudara burn.

  227. In today`s papers, the idiot that m`sians have for a DPM has compared Kamunting to Guantanamo. Until today no proof has been established against any Hindraf member for bearing arms against the govt. Truly the m`sian DPM ventures where even fools would fear to tread.

    Even under the US Patriots Act, the offenders are brought to trial, where in 2 highly publicised cases recently mistrials were declared allowing the offenders to go free.

    Truly BN/UMNO is the enemy.

  229. It’s Saturday again today. Bet AAB and PDRM would have been ready early this morning planning where to set up road blocks and where to strike. This has been their weekly schedule since the BERSIH rally!!! It’s good to keep AAB and PDRM busy, otherwise they will simply be drawing “Gaji Buta”!!!!! Give them something to do and keep them busy!

  230. Please cool down all of you. Don’t comment on posters’ English; this is not English class, otherwise those who are so-so in English would not dare to put in their comments. Mind you friends, we would lose a lot of inputs from them, and their inputs could be very different from those English speaking posters. So, please stop it!

    I have heard over and over again that surau had been demolished also. Well, I’m sure there are, but in a very nice and professional way, right? It will ‘cool’ the feeling of Malaysian if the government could provide statistics on number of Chinese temple (not road side type, of course), Indian temple and surau demolished for the past 5 years, reason for demolition, and what compensation, relocation had been arranged. I’m sure it will pacify everyone if the government could advertise these statistics (however, it must be the truth!) in the main media. This could be a worthy thing to do to cool down the tension; otherwise the non-Malays will always think otherwise.

  231. Pay day at an estate somewhere in Rawang: The creditors queue in this order –

    1. The provision shop
    2. The money lender
    3. The bank that financed the Maika loans.

    End of the day, the Indian is left with zero and immediately goes back into debt.

  232. Diaperhead, since you sound like an old record, let me play it for you:
    ALL INDIAN MALAYSIANS TAKE NOTE: THIS IS WHAT Diaperhead SAID ABOUT YOU ALL “The Indians have always been opportunistic”.
    ALL INDIAN MALAYSIANS TAKE NOTE: THIS IS WHAT Diaperhead SAID ABOUT YOU ALL “The Indians have always been opportunistic”.
    ALL INDIAN MALAYSIANS TAKE NOTE: THIS IS WHAT Diaperhead SAID ABOUT YOU ALL “The Indians have always been opportunistic”.
    ALL INDIAN MALAYSIANS TAKE NOTE: THIS IS WHAT Diaperhead SAID ABOUT YOU ALL “The Indians have always been opportunistic”.

  233. If you’re good at dishing it out to others then you must be able to receive! You don’t think so? LAIFOONG

    DIDN’T YOU just called Earnest a retard. Come on you can’t even be honest with yourself.

  234. Well, I’m sure there are, but in a very nice and professional way, right?

    You are very right there.
    In the case of the hindu temple demolitions, the Indians were not allowed to take out the statues. The statues HAD to be destroyed. These statues were set up through the donations of the poor indians.
    That caused the accusation of `ethnic cleansing` (as defined in the encyclopaedia brittanica).

  235. “…your English is much better than me and many others here.” limkamput

    Shouldn’t it be “better than mine”? Diaperhead

    How long did you take to write these few lines, 5 hours? and after consulting with Jeffrey or your former English teacher?

  236. Oh oh. Moderator at work. So lets try this then:

    Well, I’m sure there are, but in a very nice and professional way, right?

    You are very right there.
    In the case of the hindu temple demolitions, the Indians were not allowed to take out the statues. The statues HAD to be destroyed. These statues were set up through the donations of the poor indians.

  238. The main part of Shamsul’s argument that is contentious and merits serious rebuttal, if one has the time, is that the government is sensitive to non malays’ feelings (described as a “rarity”) merely based on it “allowing non Malay politicians to win in Malay areas”…”and accepting and funding vernacular schools” without evalauting the broader scheme of BN’s politics and most important other aspects of its discriminatory policies or implementation thereof. However I will dwell on this as it is not the subject of this thread.

    The subject is : if he thinks Hindraf’s leaders are trouble makers spread lies about ethnic cleansing against their own country and leaders by all means prosecute them, give them their day in court since after all we’re not short of such laws (for example Sedition Act) and neither are we short of facts to prove ie about their lying but why invoke the ISA? If their fault is so glaring is it not a stronger govt comitted to rule of law than rule by law to charge them in court and prove their guilt openly giving them at the same time a fair go at defending themselves as civilised norms of fair play and rule of law demand – than detention without trial and opportunity to defend themselves? How can that be justified?

    The ISA should be invoked if national security is threatened : what national security is threatened here? Define national security and prove it is threatened.

    The majority of existing detainees are fundamentalist militants.

    Seriously are Hindraf’s leaders, no matter how misguided or tactically unwise in their approach to highlight the Indian community’s plight in particular and the Malaysian malaise in general, militants, deliberately trying to upset the fabric of race relations by driving a wedge between Indian and Malay communities, tantamounting to threat to national security?

  241. In a lighter vein there`s this:

    Then my kids.. They were sitting silent not talking to each other, looking straight and serious. I asked them “What happened, dears.. Why so serious..?”

    “Appa.. We have no democracy in this home. We can’t do what we want..” – They said in unison.

    “OK.. take it .. let’s have democracy.. What do u want..?” – I asked.

    My elder daugher immediately caught hold of my younger son and slapped him. Angered he jumped high in the air and punched his sister’s nose. Then they started running around the dining table and throwing items on them.

    My heart was jumping at the items being thrown and the glass dining table, whose loan I am yet of pay-off..

    “Stop..” – I shouted.. “Is this democracy..?” – I asked..

    My daughter coolly replied – “Yes .. Iraqi style..”

  242. Why is this limkamput screaming in CAPS and all?? Grow up!

    Yes, that is what I said. Indians are opportunists. Had they not been, they wouldn’t have staged their demonstrations the way they did, the time they did. Is that not my free speech right?

    Here’s what another poster EARNEST had to say about him and to him:

    “EARNEST Says:
    November 29th, 2007

    “Limkamput, hopefully you come back with a higher level of civility in discourse, by first withdrawing your disparaging statements against very many messengers you offended here.”

    Obviously he’s back to cause more aggravation to posters.

  244. Undergrad2, I did not start this nonsense and I have responded accordingly to your gesture as you can attest to it.

    Yes, I have read the debate on ISA. I am not sure. I just feel that in the US, the due process is probably more stringent and judiciary more independent and that is why they need the Patriot to deal with special class of people.

    In Malaysia, I think the situation is different. Just look at our due process and the standard in the judiciary. If the Hindraf leaders are good enough to be charged and charged again and some of the followers detained indefinitely pending trial, why the need to use ISA? I thought the Government has grown smart not to use the ISA because detainees are never considered criminals and upon their release, they could almost immediately stand for election. At one time ISA detainees could stand for the election and won. I think Chan Kok Kit was one such example. I am not sure now. If the law still allows, then may be some of these Hindrad leaders can stand for the election and win.

    The government could actually use dubious charges and win! Just look at the cases concerning Anwar Ibrahim and Lim Guan Eng. So using the ISA on Hindraf to me is not really a good idea from the Government point of view. May be the Government is really half past six. May be the Government is under lots of pressure from the UMNO right wing.

  245. diaperhead and laifoong, please come and debate with me quickly. i am waiting here, write one or two paragraphs quickly and show me. please no more one liner here and there. I believe you are still here, so do it now and show what you have got.

  247. Look guys, I am kinda cheesed off with all these name-calling, challenges, etc that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. We now have over 240 comments on this thread, many of which have no relevance whatsoever to our discussions.

    Please take your petty insults elsewhere. Better still, focus your insults on the den of thieves which is clearly so incompetent that they resort to detention without trial. A den of thieves led by the Sleepy Head or Big Ears, whichever you want to call him.

  249. hutchrun Says:

    224 comments in one single posting! proud huh?

    Awww that`s nothing :) I have seen blogs where comments run into thousands.

    I was just trying to be a little sarcastic ok? but 240 over comments is indeed very rare in uncle kit’s blog….

    Guys, just stop the debate and stop flooding comments here. I bet Zam will blame uncle kit by quoting one of these comments in parliament one day.

  250. liaw3003sc is right, I agree!
    This is not an English class, is it? I know I too made alot of mistakes and don’t care unless it’s a very glaring one. Just hentam saja lah as long as we get our message across and without the use of abusive, obscene and derogatory words/remarks.

    To those “batu api”, please grow up and don’t harp on old issues. Let’s move on.

  251. I cannot understand why my comment is awaiting moderation when I am just stating the fact, then it is released like 5 to 6 hours later or the next day. From my personal opinion, I think I have been good and gives a lot of respect for Uncle Kit. The moderator of this blog sure don’t like me very much.

  252. Godfather, when I get insulted, nobody said anything. When I responded, some of you felt (and perhaps rightly so) that we must focus on the big picture. I agree that we should stop provided they stop it first this time. I have earlier heeded Sdr Kit advice and I think Undergrad2 can testify to that. I have seen some of these fellows writing nothing substantial other than one liner here and there. So please don’t blame me, the fault is not mine this time.

  253. dawsheng: Maybe its links and certain keywords. So what i think maybe to play around with words that the moderator considers `sensitive`.

    Chong Zhemin: I was just trying to be a little sarcastic ok?
    Me: OK

  256. It`s hot in India:

    Demo against Malaysian govt in Coimbatore
    Friday, December 14, 2007 19:26 [IST]
    Coimbatore: The workers of Hindu Makkal Katchi and Hanuman Sena today staged a demonstration in the city, protesting against alleged human rights violation against Indians in Malaysia.

    According to police, the workers raised slogans against the Malaysian Government and sought protection for Indians, particularly Tamils. The demonstration lasted half an hour.

  257. Anyway, since the PM, Ag and IGP have confirmed the nexus between the LTTE terrorists and malaysians, will Ananda Krishnan be investigated. After all he is a ceylonese tamil and therefore has greater interest in the subject than the tamil nad tamils of hindraf.

  258. Diaperhead said: Yes, that is what I said. Indians are opportunists. Had they not been, they wouldn’t have staged their demonstrations the way they did, the time they did. Is that not my free speech right?

    NO, what you said was “The Indians have ALWAYS been opportunistic.” Yes, sure it is your free speech. Who is denying or challenging your right to free speech. I am just helping you to disseminate to as many people as possible, especially Indian Malaysians. They need to know, don’t they? Otherwise, whatever that come out from your moronic head will just go to waste.

  260. One more thing, diaperhead, don’t you ever call Indian Malaysians Indians again. They are not Indians. They are also not Malaysian Indians. They are Indian Malaysians. If you don’t understand, go seek counsel from Jeffrey QC or Undergrad2.

  261. puteramalaya,

    You say to compare the KMM detention to Uthayakumars “I can’t rule out violence” statement. This is cherry picking one stray statement out of many things Uthayakumar said. Please read the full context of what Uthayakumar said here http://sean-the-man.blogspot.com/2007/12/hindraf-and-rest-of-msia-falling-into.html

    To cherry pick Uthayakumar’s statement, is akin to cherry picking a single, now infamous line that Dr. Mahathir once used out of his entire, lengthy speech. That line reads, “We are actually very strong, 1.3 billion people cannot be simply wiped out. The Europeans killed 6 million Jews out of 12 million. But today the Jews rule the world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them” http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/10/16/oic.mahathir/

    Isn’t this line seditious? Does this line not incite violence? Does this line not incite racial/religious hatred? Why wasn’t the ISA used in this case?

    The use of the ISA against anyone, including against Dr. Mahathir and those who are alleged to be KMM/JI, is deplorable. All detainees should be given a chance to prove their innocence in courts. Also, if I recall correctly, the US did question the detention of alleged KMM members prior to 9/11.

    And before Malaysia decides to whip the Bush administration on Guantanamo, make sure Malaysia’s mess is clear first. Otherwise, it would be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

  263. Limkamput,

    Here’s the joke! I am an Indian.

    I am an Indian albeit a bearded one and was not among those who demonstrated in the streets of KL; and I do not support their leaders. I think Indians are opportunists. They have to be to survive because they are a marginalized lot.

    The joke is on you, my friend.

  264. Note: I’m posting this again, as it did not get posted earlier. If it appears again, I’m sorry.

    Dear Shamsul,
    I guess you did not have anything to say to my comments to you earlier. You can’t because they were the truth.
    You mentioned “are we willing to witness another May 13?”. Becarefull of what you wish for. A race thats been discrimninated over and over again for many years will not hesitate to resort to violence. Although, I personally will not resort to violence, but history in the world has shown that group thats marginalized over and over again will resort to violence one day. The Tamilians in Sri Lanka resorted to violence after it’s government marginalized and discriminated them for years. The police’s allegation that Hindraff have connection with terrorist group is not true, but I dare say that if the government continue to treat people like ‘bodoh’ ( but people are not bodoh), then the government is actually initiating the birth of a group that might turn violent.
    Shamsul, don’t threaten with the bullshit May 13, when a group is aggravated enough, the energy generated will move mountains. I’m ashamed to call you my Malaysian brother. I’m willing to go through all kind of trouble and torture to see justice being served, but I’m not willing to resort to violence. Gandhi proved than we are inherently non violent, and that the pen is mightier than an weapon.
    Long live justice in Malaysia.
    May God bless Malaysia.

  265. Limkamput:

    Don’t go around telling people that you will stop your insults only if they stop their insults. Just ignore them, and comment constructively.

    By telling people that you will stop only when they stop, then it is like two parties are buggering Bolehland and one says that he will withdraw only if the other withdraws. The result is the same – someone still gets buggered, if you know the meaning.

  266. Sometimes we can get ahead of ourselves in fits of anger, but we must resist the urge to condemn other people, particularly if they are with the Opposition.

    This is the time to stand up and say: If you are with the Opposition, then you are a friend. This message is meant for all of you, not just Limkamput alone.

  268. I am an Indian albeit a bearded one and was not among those who demonstrated in the streets of KL; and I do not support their leaders. I think Indians are opportunists. They have to be to survive because they are a marginalized lot.

    Please don’t twist and turn. The fact that you are an Indian Malaysian does not give you more right to call other Indian Malaysians opportunistic. Your exact quote: “The Indians have always been opportunistic”.

  269. The ISA is a convenient piece of legislation that allows tyranny to flourish. It allows incompetence to flourish as well, because the ISA is used when the case against certain individuals is weak, or the prosecution cannot be trusted to do its job. “Convenience” and “incompetence” sums up the pathetic regime of Abdullah Ahmad Badawi.

  270. Can you guys stop hijacking this blog?

    Who is writting beautiful English is not an issue here.

    We are discussing big issues like UMO corruptions, abuse of powers and many other scams. We are not here to talk about English ability and names calling.

    Enough is enough!

  271. Pingback: VIDEOS: HINDRAF Leaders Detained Under Internal Security Act « Pseudonymity

  272. Godfather, I have told you earlier, I have heeded Sdr Lim’s advice to change my way. I think Undergrad2 can testify that. What we have here is these few fellows who think the blog belong to them. Are you saying that I should remain silent while they go on and on with their moronic comments? I will keep my word. If they stop, I will stop immediately. Otherwise we can go on. There is no problem; I can handle all of them simultaneously. They probably take one hour to write one sentence.

  274. “If the Hindraf leaders are good enough to be charged and charged again and some of the followers detained indefinitely pending trial, why the need to use ISA?” limkamput

    I believe the HINDRAF leaders were first charged with sedition but Prosecution made a slip when they failed to attach the original speech which was in Tamil but only its translation.

    The HINDRAF 31 were charged with attempted murder. Once you are charged with a capital crime the judge could detain those accused without bail pending trial. I’m not sure if the judge has discretion in the matter. Jeffrey QC could help fill up the blanks for me. Thanks Jeffrey.

    In the U.S. and the U.K. all offenses are bailable. Those accused of murder usually will have to post a hefty bail as high as $2.0 million. In some cases because of the threat to the witnesses and the risk of witness tampering, there would be restraining orders against those accused but released on bail. In all such cases it is their failure to post bail that results in them spending time in detention pending trial. So there is no constitutional issues involved.

    Since apparently prosecution failed to charge the HINDRAF leaders with sedition, they ended up taking the easier and more convenient route which is to charge them under ISA. Under ISA the onus is reversed. The onus is on those detained to show why they should not be detained. It is not fair because those detained do not know why they were detained and what proof if any the government has on the crimes they are supposed to have committed.

    Other aspects that make the ISA a draconian law include detention for an initial two years without charge upon the Minister certifying it and there is no judicial review of the Minister’s decision. There used to be before 1985(?). I don’t know if the ISA has been amended since.

  275. Bernama News:”Information Minister Datuk Seri Zainuddin Maidin says the detention of five leaders of the illegal Hindu Rights Action Force (Hindraf) is “what the people want”.

    “what the people want” – better read as “what UMNO wants”! Hello, Zam – check your facts? Who asked the people? You? Temberang lagi! (Translated: “Bullshit again”)

    Zam says: “Today’s society is more educated and will not easily accept explanations without facts. Whether we are effective in disseminating information fast will determine how fast we can build a first-class mentality society,” he said.

    Who wrote this speech? Zam? Not by a million miles or in a million years! Zam, do you understand what are “facts”? For your benefit, facts are ‘verifiable truths’, ok? Temberang doesn’t qualify,ok. Thanks for your tongue-twisting Bullshit. You may rest your case and ‘pergi main jauh-jauh’.

    As for a “first-class mentality”, Zam, where did you pick up the vocabulary? Well… forget it, you would never understand!

  276. Dear Shamshul Anuar,

    If all you say is true, that the HINDRAF leaders were playing with fire, that they were spreading lies, etc, then they should be given their day in court to explain themselves. There are always two sides to a story. Let them go through the due process of the courts.

    By putting them under ISA, we the rakyat do not get to hear their side of the story. What is the government afraid of, the HINDRAF’s leaders side of the story, or the fact that the government really has a very weak or non-existent case against them, or does the government really have something to hide?

    To think that ordinary Indians would buy into every single thing that HINDRAF leaders say or write, would be an insult to the intelligence of ordinary Indians. They don’t need HINDRAF to see what is going on, and to draw their own conclusions.

  280. Shamsul,

    Another thing for you to think about. Why did the PM meet with so many Indian community leaders and NGO’s yesterday? Some even were so happy he took notes it seems (as opposed to falling asleep I guess).

    Would we have seen this reaction if there were not 50,000 people present on 25th Nov?

    If ten people had gone and handed the memorandum to Brit High Comm, Nazri, Najib and PM would have said, Oh they dont represent the majority! Well they said it anyway, but my point is that after a hundred letters to the PM does not elicit any action or response, where do you turn to next?

    Obviously you turn to the people. And thats what Hindraf did! The people are the ones who put the politicians in power. Unfortunately both sides need to be reminded of this OFTEN!

    Some cretin have the gall to call themselves Political MASTERS and refer to government employees as Civil SERVANTS!

    Its due to the overwhelming support that PM has had to do something more than just lip service.

    Thats the effect of people power.

    The actions to imprison and use of ISA will only make the Home Minister highly unpopular. He is obviously not in touch with the feelings of the rakyat!

    And when a politician says he does not bother about the minority, he is forgetting that he represents all his constituents. Not only the majority.

  282. In reference to the various issues raised by various commentators here:-

    1. the offence of attempted murder which the 31 alleged supporters of Hindraf’s supporters at Batu Caves were charged is a serious non – bailable offence punishable up to the maximum 20 years’ jail with fine;

    2. the leaders of Hindraf were charged with sedition, a bailable offence, charges were dismissed on one occasion because of technical glitch of the charge not being supported by translated or signed copy of the alleged seditious publications;

    3. Hindraf’s leaders were rearrested and re-charged for sedition – I’ve lost track of the sequence;

    4. the dismissal of earlier charge on sedition does not preclude, re-arrest and re-charging on same offence of sedition. This is especially so where everywhere is strewn, through different mediums and context, Hindraf’s leaders allegedly seditious remarks;

    5. In light of 4, my sense is that detaining Hindraf’s leaders under ISA is independent of the issue of the authorities being unable to re-charge them for sedition, thereby raising inference that detention under ISA as last resort in law but a last resort weighing political calculations and considerations.

    No expertise in law is claimed here in expression of the above points. It is my sense gathered from what is read in the media, whether mainstream or on line.

    On other posters’ remarks that “we are discussing big issues like UMO corruptions, abuse of powers and many other scams…and not English ability”, it is true but I like to take it from there to say a few related things.

    First, it is true that some of the contemporaneous or past exchanges occurring in various threads of this blog are/were results of some relishing in the art of verbal warfare/insults sometimes crossing into name calling and mainly bruised ego.

    I express no opinion about these engagements – they happen – and ought to be better left to the good judgment of all involved to determine as to when and at what point to stop so that the blog is not perceived high-jacked by those are interested on serious issues raised. (The Moderator cannot stop or block because an offender can return registered under another handle/nick to carry on).

    It sometimes amuses me that when we use a handle/nick in cyberspace that nobody knows anything more of the real person insulting or insulted, we should all get so worked up in our personal egos.

    Be that as it may egos are rubbed the wrong way because often strong and uncontrolable emotions are involved in issues discussed….

    The first cause of many problems here in this blog and political landscape outside has something to do with evaluating issues emotionally than objectively and rationally.

    Again I express no criticism in these respects because it must be understood many of us here and outside are living lives of quiet desperation due to the political milieu and for the more temperamental and perhaps younger, there is real anger and impatience that something concrete, and if needs be radical, by way of action – not words, arguments and esoteric discussion on law – need to be taken to redress the situation. It is a feeling I can understand but cannot advocate or recommend.

    Reason : we are dealing here with a complicated situation. The reactionary forces and vested interests against reform and change have the entire arsenal arrayed against their detractors – police, army, authority, law and even large other sections of Malaysians, whether silent or vociferous having a stake in the existing moribund system.

    In counteracting such a superior force, one has to be realistic, use measured language, balanced approach, examine issues objectively and don’t just dismiss legality as Hindraf’s leaders had done.

    To fight such superior force, we don’t have much capital except our own moral capital and cause. We cannot afford what we fight for and say being assailed or provide an opportunity to be seized upon by the other side to be branded as exaggeration and lies (eg ethnic cleansing and Tamil Indians). It will be our own undoing. It may be the undoing of the Cause as well.

    It is good to make fair comment, and no comment is fair if it is not objective or grossly exaggerates which takes away our own protection.

    This (fair, objective and unemotional comment or stance in whatever we do) should be the guiding principle not only outside this blog in the world at large with its harsh realities but in the exchanges within the blog here as well.

  284. Guantanamo is for those caught in the war zone. Hindraf members did not resort to arms.
    Under the US anti-terrorism bill, offenders are brought to court. Some get freed on account of leftist jurors who intimidate other jurors. Others like this latest:

    SANTA ANA, Calif. (AP) – Two of four men accused of plotting attacks on Southern California military sites and Jewish targets have agreed to plead guilty to terrorism conspiracy charges, prosecutors said.
    Kevin James and Levar Haley Washington were set to enter the pleas Friday in federal court in Santa Ana, the U.S. attorney’s office said in a statement. Both were indicted in 2005 on federal charges including conspiring to wage war against the U.S. government through terrorism.

  285. But sometimes without resorting to such measures, no one hears ones’ plight. In the hindraf case, the pm has taken note of the problems facing the community. It remains to be seen if his effort stops there or whether he will do something concrete to address the various issues.

    But the argument is would this have been possible to achieve if approached via normal channels……..one would tend to doubt this as many temples have been destroyed despite many letters and appeals and police reports being made and the plight of the indians in malaysia would not have been able to be highlighted to the extent that has been achieved by this approach.

  286. Dear Shamsul,
    Nice to read your comments again. I think its a good opportunity that we are able to discuss openly in KIT’s blog on these seemingly sensitive matters. Hoping that all of us will be able to have better insight into the current situation in the country.

    ‘It claimed that Malaysia practiced ethnic cleansing against Indians’
    It is sad that our HINDRAF friends has made a mistake on this point, surely. This is an emotional expression. I believe the ‘cleansing’ they referred to is their race would be LEFT TO ROT (cleansing) if the government do not help them. Surely nobody could see any Indian get killed by the government. The British who are supposed to receive their memorandum should know what it meant; only the UMNO understand otherwise!

    ‘the arrest is not about the manifestation of a weak and threatened government’
    The rally was to relate their grievances; for the poor and helpless Indians (you know very well what MIC could do for them; they are only yes man and beggar in the BN due to the UMNO agenda after the MAY 13, they are not ‘partners’, they are only ‘followers’. Do you know how Tun Tan Siew Sen the Finance Minister refused to entertain unscrupulous budget and expenses even if it was made by the then PM Tunku?!). I think irrespective of how they had conveyed the message (proper channel not being heeded earlier), the government could just tell them ‘I HEARD, we would study the whole matter’, give us sometime, please get back to your work. That’s all! Why antoganised them with all the never ending tactics to finally get them under ISA? Is this not uncalled for? Nobody likes May 13 except, may be for the hardcore poor. However, if it is forced on you, you just have to take it!

    ‘Tak apalah bagi orang India menang di kawasan Melayu. Kalau tidak satu wakil India pun tak ada di Parlimen’
    Beautiful! It looks like our Malay friends are very generous. Do you know when Alliance (UMNO, MCA, MIC) first contested the election after 1957, there were how many Parlimentary constituencies allocated for the Indian? I do not have the figures on hand, but I know for sure the total seats allocated to MIC and MCA exceeds 50%! Under the UMNO agenda (and with MCA, MIC helps pacifying their members by ‘we don’t publicise, we negotiate’ tactic), please tell me how many seats are left for them now? Shame on MCA and MIC! New townships in FELDA schemes, Putrajaya, relocated Arm forces quarter area, huge governmental organisation area are all sabu by UMNOputras (you can’t argue because these places are nearly 99% Malays). Constituencies’ racial ratio were seasonly revised to reflect Malay dominance; sadly MCA and MIC just keep quiet. Why are they not demanding to keep to the same ratio in 1957 as per the Alliance consensus? Hope now you know, I’m old enough to tell you all this thing. However, we would be gone one day, and the youngster may just have to get stuffed with whatever the UMNO government plugged into their mouth. The poor Chinese and Indian have to now rely on their Malay ‘masters’ to get elected, what a shame! (of course if UMNO can BE SEEN to be fair, this feeling may not creep in)

    ‘So much hatred vs UMNO that not many in this blog are willing to condemn the baseless accusation by HINDRAF’
    As far as non-Malays are concerned, HINDRAF’s appeal is genuine. Well, may be you have been living as BUMIPUTRA for so long and getting everything UMNO version, you don’t understand their real situation. The inter-racial ‘gap’ has been worsen by the Malay Supremacy tactic of UMNO, there is no intermingle among races, as well as among Malay-non Malay, Malay commoners had always take for granted that the non-Malays are too much and too greedy, not knowing that they are only asking for their right as a citizen!

    ‘At least UMNO still consider the feeling of non-Malays. — vernacular schools —-‘
    To the Malays, they think they had been very generous! For the non-Malays, we have lost our rights! Aren’t the Chinese and Tamil schools supposed to be in the main stream of our educational system? That’s why the government is still footing the expenses for these schools. This is an agreement when Alliance fight for the Independence. However, the history is being distorted as year goes by! The Malays are having the idea that the government is supporting these school out of goodwill! You’re dead wrong! Please read the constitution! That’s why it hurts each time when MCA brag about they had successfully obtained the approval of our E. Minister to move a Chinese micro school to somewhere. What a shame! The government should automatically build one when there is a need. My dear Shamsul, how would you feel when a non-Malay who are sad over this matter sees ‘mammoth Malay schools’ mushrooming in the midst of oil palm plantation in FELDA schemes?

    ‘Mandarin is required is still rampant in the newspaper’
    Well, I don’t see one for quite sometime already. However, stating mandarin is required is nothing wrong if the job really needs Mandarin. How could we not state the requirement if the job needs me to communicate with China customers/suppliers (and China is now the Factory of the World)? This is only a small matter! Don’t take it to your heart. The non-Malays had got used to ‘kepujian dalam BM adalah wajib (compulsory)’. This had been one of the reasons in the seventies and eighties why so many non-Malays could not get into civil service or further their education in a government college or university;I was one of them, grade1 MCE aggregate but failed my Bahasa Melayu at that time!
    I hope you could see now that it is not such a big issue afterall; unless someone politicise it in line with the total agenda.

    ‘Surau is also being demolished’
    Please refer to my earlier comments.

    Dear Shamsul, we are living in a much blessed country, with multi racial and cultural mix our real advantage! If we work as a team, as Anak Malaysia, no racial politic, putra-putri policy revised to hard core poor policy, practice genuine meritocracy, our country will be a heaven on earth!

    God bless our country!

  288. I agree wholeheartedly with what Jeffrey says in his excellent post on the importance of rational and emotionally detached discussion. Emotional urges are no doubt strong, but we must resist them, for they often cloud sensible judgements. Resisting emotional urges are not denial. We should not deny that we have a certain feeling. But neither should we think that there is nothing wrong with having or indulging in any feeling. I know this is controversial and some psychologists think that feelings are morally neutral. I disagree. I think some feelings in some circumstances are morally wrong or at least bad. When we have morally unjustified anger, we must resist it. Resisting it does not mean that we deny its existence, pretending as if it is not there. Rather, it means, for example, that we confess that there is really a feeling of anger there, but refuse to dwell and act on it. Indulging in it only makes things worse. Refusing to dwell on a certain feeling is not denial. When I fall into a ditch. I should not just lie in the ditch and pretend as if I’m not in a ditch. I should simply acknowledge that I’m in the ditch. But neither should I wallow in the ditch and refuse to get out. Some may say that it is difficult to control our emotions. It is difficult, but not impossible. It is more difficult to attempt to control our feelings directly, as if we can tell ourselves to feel or not to feel in a certain way. But we can exert control over our emotions quite effectively through doing the right actions that will reduce a certain negative feeling and nurture its positive counterpart. When in anger, stop writing or talking or anything else that will fuel the anger. Try to do something else that changes our feelings. We can also cultivate a habit that will reduce the chances of getting ourselves into circumstances where we are more prone to fall into the temptation of anger. This is difficult but worth doing if we want to develop a good character – I’m still learning.
    I think Jeffrey’s conduct in this blog is exemplary.

  289. Lee Wang Yeng,

    It’s great to see you’re back and has not walked away in disgust because of the presence of some recalcitrant player on this blog who insists that the only way he could contribute to the blog is to behave offensively towards others. His abrasive and confrontational behavior at the minimum is distracting.

    Your post is the kind of post that he who cannot control his anger and has to rub others the wrong way to be noticed must and should read. It is a page out of Dr. Phil’s book.

  290. Could it be the one who cannot control his anger here be suffering from PMS? If that’s the case then his fits uncontrollable anger would be the first among males. Could it then be that the punishment meant for Eve for the First Sin in that Garden of Eden some 2,000 years ago has entered another phase?

  291. Syamsul thinks UMNO can rule on it’s own if it wants to. How arrogant.

    He has forgotten about the person, who can make or break a situation. He has forgotten about God, who calls all the shots.

    If God decides to do away with UMNO, there’s nothing that can stop their ultimate demise. They’re a corrupt & racist party anyway.

    Remember Syamsul, UMNO can cheat/lie/steal/kill/bully the rakyat. But they can beat God.

  292. I agree with Limkamput that it was an uncalled for comment by diaperhead that the Indians are opportunistic.Which race when given the chance will not be opportunistic?Or did diaperhead mean to say greed.Well if that is what he means it cant be.If they are greedy then they would not be in such a marginalised state for so long.Hindraf would have given birth long ago and not after 38 years of NEP.Any way we cannot characterise and generalise about each race. There are bits of everything in every race, good or bad.

  293. It is called racial profiling.

    But Diaper Head does not deny it!

    He says clearly that Indians are opportunists, that Indians have to be to be so to survive because they are a marginalized lot. He should know better than anybody with a name like Richard Teo.

    “The Indians are opportunists” comment comes from a “bearded Indian’ (meaning he is a Singh) to use his own words and is therefore not a racist comment. Diaper is an Indian who does not support what the HINDRAF leaders (as opposed to its followers) are doing i.e. instigating Tamils among Indians (rather than all Indians) to take to the streets fully knowing that the police will re-act harshly towards them for ignoring their warnings.

    As a result HINDRAF suffered a serious setback when Indian leaders of the New Delhi government refused to support their cause because of its religious content.

  294. To: Richard Teo

    “I agree with Limkamput that it was an uncalled for comment by diaperhead that the Indians are opportunistic.”

    The exchanges with limkamput started earlier when Diaper Head corrected his English. It was not about “uncalled for” racist comments like you said. Limkamput continued in his tirade even when he knew later that Diaper was an Indian! So from there we know where he is coming from and where he is going with his comments.

    It is best for the blog that you don’t encourage him.

  296. “…the dismissal of earlier charge on sedition does not preclude, re-arrest and re-charging on same offence of sedition. This is especially so where everywhere is strewn, through different mediums and context, Hindraf’s leaders allegedly seditious remarks;” Jeffrey QC

    That is true.

    It is independent in the very important sense that a defective charge sheet is easily cured by making suitable amendments and are not fatal. Re-arresting those accused and have them charged afresh is not an issue because it does not involve double jeopardy.

    As the prosecutor with ‘a boss ranting and fuming determined to see that some action is taken against a small group of lawyers who think they know better’ I would leave no stones unturned. I would think of another way albeit controversial but more immediate and more effective. That way would be to bring the full weight of the Internal Security Act down to bear on this ‘wild bunch of racist instigators.’ To do that some claims against them for having terrorist links should help. The ISA allows me to detain them without charge and without access to counsel. Why bother about curing a defective charge under the Sedition Act?

    It is independent in the sense also that actions already commenced against those accused under the Sedition Act could proceed independently of their detention under the Internal Security Act. This is better than having multiple or alternative charges under one charge sheet.

  297. colonel,
    It does not matter who said it or whether it was an indian who said it. The fact of the matter is that it is not true and I stand to be corrected.It is not a question of siding with Limkamput.
    As for corecting ones english, why should diaperhead take upon himself to correct other peoples english? This is not a forum to teach people english but to discuss whats on this thread.Not everyone is gifted to speak the queens language.So if you have a good mastery of the language just keep it to yourself.

  298. Jeffrey says,

    “The Moderator cannot stop or block because an offender can return registered under another handle/nick to carry on.”

    Not if his IP address is blocked!

    But I think Kit does not want to do that. I think he should consider the “3 strikes” Rule because these exchanges do trivialize the blog. What with the Minister of Misinformation reading and all!

  299. Encyclopaedia Britannica defines `ethnic cleansing` as:

    `the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportation or forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing sometimes involves the removal of all physical vestiges of the targeted group through the destruction of monuments, cemeteries, and houses of worship.`

    Going by that, hindraf does seem to have points.

  301. “As for corecting ones english, why should diaperhead take upon himself to correct other peoples english? This is not a forum to teach people english” Richard Teo

    You can be excused for saying so because you do not know the history. The history is that limkamput has a record of insulting and belittling readers here claiming that they do not know how to write English, that Jeffrey here is “stupid” and his contribution to this blog is nothing more than “hollow sophistication” and his English difficult for him to digest. He is the only commentator who made it his holy duty to do so.

    So Diaper Head and a few others were only dishing it out to him what he has been dishing out to others! It is only fair, don’t you think so?

    In any case Diaper’s comments on his supposedly English error contained nothing offensive. He just said “Limkamput, wrong English – “efforts” should be “effort” and that in my opinion is not sufficient for someone to allow himself to plunge into a long tirade of abuse involving even other commentators who were trying only to help.

  302. Encyclopaedia Britannica defines `ethnic cleansing` as:

    `the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportation or forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing sometimes involves the removal of all physical vestiges of the targeted group through the destruction of monuments, cemeteries, and houses of worship.`

    “Going by that, hindraf does seem to have points.” HUTCHRUN

    Going by that Uthayakumar’s reference to ‘ethnic cleansing a la Malaysia’ is an admission that the word ‘ethnic cleansing’ is a term not to be confined to its conventional meaning – some call that as an attempt to distort and exaggerate in order to attract international opinion.

    The term first came into popular use in 1990 with the breakup of the old Yugoslavia and the widespread and systematic killing by Christian Serbians of Bosnian Muslims.

    To suggest that the government of Malaysia is indulging in ethnic cleansing of its racial minorities is a stretch.

    Be that as it may, racial discrimination of any race is wrong and cannot be condoned. What sets the Indians apart from the Chinese, according to Uthayakumar, is that their plight has gone unheeded and ignored – unlike that of the “Chinese who dominate the economy” to use his own words.

  303. Shamsul,

    To add further to what liaw said, when the EC does not act fair what to do la?

    You can have some constituencies with a 100,000 voters and others with less than 10,000 voters, Both result in one MP seat. So yes by gerrymandering it can reacha situation where no seat has an outright indian majority.

    What about there being more and more seats being drawn up in Seberang Prai so that there are more malay seats than chinese seats in Penang? The intention is clear, and one day soon, Penang too will have a Malay CM.

  304. And Shamsul, while the government pays for building of the mosques in every corner of malaysia, do you know that temples and churches are built by funds collected by the believers themselves? Why the difference huh?

    Government money is my money too mah! I pay taxes, as does Genting! The reason I mention Genting is because I want you to realize the irony that sin money goes into paying for the mosques. Sin money also pays the salaries of the imams and khadis etc.

    For the non-malays, we have to collect our own funds and pay for our own priests. Why these differences huh? Why should my money be used to pay to build a mosque? Why not only collect halal money from muslims and build it just like it’s done by the other races?

  306. ‘…. while the government pays for building of the mosques in every corner of malaysia, do you know that temples and churches are built by funds collected by the believers themselves? Why the difference huh?’ lakshy

    The difference is in Article 12 (2) “….but federal law or state law may provide for special financial aid for the establishment or maintenance of Muslim institutions or the instruction in the Muslim religion of persons professing that religion.”

    This Article flows from Article 3 (1) “Islam is the religion of the Federation….”

  307. “You can have some constituencies with a 100,000 voters and others with less than 10,000 voters, Both result in one MP seat.” lakshy

    Don’t think EC can do that!

    What they can do, however, is to split constituencies with a predominantly Chinese electorate and transform it into a constituency with no clear majority, for example, or even with a slight Malay majority. They do this by re-drawing the boundaries!

  308. Dear Takkkan Indian Hilang Di Dunia

    Yes. Every race will struggle to defend their rights. So are the various races in Malaysia. But please do not compare the situation in Malaysia with that of sri lanka. Just because Indians are victimes there does not mean that the sitiuation is the same here.

    My point is very clear. Hindraf said that this govt( it clearly explained UMNO led Govt) conducted ethnic cleansing. It spread the lies to the world. Now imagine which govt would not get angry over the baseless accusation. And tell why Malay community is very upset. Hindraf is actually saying the Malays conducting ethnic cleansing vs Indians.

    To the Malays and vast majority of malaysians ( I called silent majority) ,this is too much. Hindraf clearly played with racial issue here. It is as simple as that.

    Now imagine if the Malays react. Imagine that . Another may 13 in the making. Hindraf clearly invited problem to itself. Any leader will react . And in Malaysia, there is a tool, ISA.

    Despite what you said, vast majority of Malaysians agree to the tool, ISA. That is the reason years after year they keep on returning the same govt to power.

    I am amazed that nobody here seems want to tell Hindraf leaders how dangerous it is to play with racial issue. And someone asked whether I know the feeling of families detained by ISA. Perhap he should ask the families whether those detained think about their families before playing with fire.

    What PM did is a manifastation of what a Malay will react. As a Malay leader said, “No point acting when people are literally killing each other. Act before such thing happen”.

    Oh do not worry about condemnation from countries that they have the monopoly on preaching to other countries. They also have ISA like law. But of course, they will justify it under national security.

    As for DarkHorse, many thanks for your remarks. And do aware that in Selangor alone, the number of temples exceeds that of mosques and surau put together although the Malays form the largest race as compared to Indians. Do understand that Islam is the official religion here. Of course it is given prominence over other religions just like Christianity is given prominence in UK or Italy. But other religions can be practised here.

    As for Lakshi, if Malay really wanted the Chief Minister post in Penang, It would have gotten it in 1990. But in humility it still consider the wishes of Chinese community . So give some credit to UMNO.

    And to RGRaj, I am afraid you miss my point. I was simply defending UMNO against unfair allegation. I just merely cautioned Malaysians on one simple fact. That the dominant political party that people like you are so fond of condemning is actually led by humble people. They can simply say that no Indian will be considered as a wakil rakyat due to no constituent in Malaysia has an Indian majority area. But they still include the Indians. This is known to everybody. Without UMNO support, many Chinese politicians, be it in Gerakan or MCA will lose the election.

    So, actually they still consider the interest of Chinese or other races in Malaysia. As one Indian friend of mine told me ” At least UMNO leader still have the humility to put Indian politician in Malay majority area.”

    I mean no insult to Indian or Chinese or Kadazan or whatever races in Malaysia. I admit Indian have valid grouses just like Malays or Chinese or any other races in Malaysia. Whatever their grouses, channel it properly. And do not lie. Hindraf told the world that UMNO practised ethnic cleansing . At the very same breath, it said it is not against the Malays. Come on. By saying that UMNO is its enemy, Hindraf is actually waging war vs the Malays. This is how the Malays feel.

    By the way anybody wants to know how the Saudi Govt acts in this scenario. According to my Saudi friend, they just behead Hindraf leaders. A point to remember here.

  309. DarkAss, I guess whatever you have said is best applicable to yourself. You can’t deny that the present problem was started by you. After Sdr Lim advice, I have toned down but apparently you took it as a sign of weakness and continued with your uncalled for comments. We shall see how this will turn out.

  310. DarkHorse says in response to lakshy observation that “You can have some constituencies with a 100,000 voters and others with less than 10,000 voters, Both result in one MP seat.” as follow:

    Don’t think EC can do that! What they can do, however, is to split constituencies with a predominantly Chinese electorate and transform it into a constituency with no clear majority, for example, or even with a slight Malay majority. They do this by re-drawing the boundaries!

    Is there a moron talking here? Why don’t you check the number of voters in the Parliamentary Constituency of Putrajaya and compare it with say Bukit Bintang or Ipoh Barat. Let me give you another one, Gua Musang and compare it with Petaling Selatan or Petaling Utara.

  311. Colonel says: It is best for the blog that you don’t encourage him.
    Lee Wang Yen Says: I agree with Colonel.
    Everyone is talking as if they are saints here. The reality is that they can’t even see their own biasness and deficiency.
    Look, Colonel (or are you just a private?), if you want to trace back to history of this quarrel, you should perhaps read in detail what was going on. Don’t selectively read and form conclusion out of your own biasness. You are no angel. You are angry because I hit back at your stupid comments. But you must understand, you started it, not me.
    By the way, your observation of HINDRAF suffering from a serious setback when Indian leaders of the New Delhi government refused to support their cause is nothing but coming from someone who is simpleton. Call yourself Colonel having worked in Ministry of Defense. For you everything is based on official statement. We shall all see whether the Indian Government will be sympathetic toward the Hindraf cause. The Indian Government also repeatly says they never supported the Tigers. I think you don’t even know how basic international relations works.

  312. Richard Teo says: It does not matter who said it or whether it was an indian who said it.

    Precisely, that was how I responded to Diaperhead earlier. The fact that you are an Indian Malaysians does not confer you more right to insult other Indian Malaysians. Those who think otherwise obviously have no sense of what is right or wrong and are usually racists themselves.

  313. As for the Cambridge brat, I think you have no moral decency left to lecture any damn thing here. When you can’t win an argument, you would simply say I will fail you. Who do you think you are? Is this how you lecture in Cambridge? I think Cambridge will be a better institution without you.

  314. Darkhorse: The difference is in Article 12 (2) “….but federal law or state law may provide for special financial aid for the establishment or maintenance of Muslim institutions or the instruction in the Muslim religion of persons professing that religion.”
    This Article flows from Article 3 (1) “Islam is the religion of the Federation….”

    When lakshy raised a political question, this parrot thinking that he is so clever by simply vomiting the provisions in the Constitution. This is pathetic to say the least. Seriously I think you better say less because you are a bad influence.

  315. DarkDonkey, You seriously think that lakshy or others do not know the relevant provisions in the constitution. Hello, we are talking politics here. If the Constitution is not fair, we shall change it. If the Constitution is fair, but the implementation is screwed, we shall see that it is rectified. Honestly, those with puny brain shouldn’t be here.

  316. To limkamput:

    1. I have never said that I lecture in Cambridge or anywhere.
    2. I have never said that I will fail you. What I said was that if you were to argue in a paper in the way you did in this blog, you would fail.

    Please refrain from making false accusations.

  317. I think Shamsul by now can understand the plight of the non bumis.More importantly he and other bumis should drop their crutches.After all they are all able bodied.Why should they need the crutches?In this globalised world,competition does not recognise skin and colour.If you are smart and hardworking,you will stand better chance to succeed than others.Don’t you think the NEP is a social stigma carried by the bumi?Malu tah?

  318. lakshy, may I add that the zakat paid by Muslims are tax deductible. Now, your weekly Sunday tithe, is it deductible? I hope there are no idiot coming around telling us that these are not provided in the constitution!

  323. Dear YB Kit,

    I really feel you should implement the “Three strikes Rule” as suggested by laifoong. This is getting out of control.

    The above alone are six strikes!

    All these are unprovoked and uncalled for insults hurled against posters. It is utter and complete disrespect to you YB Kit. You have worked hard to provide and maintain this platform for those who feel the need to express themselves on issues affecting our country. Instead we have a poster who goes around doing his best to transform the blog into his private chat room and litter the threads with his personal insults!

    You do not need to block his IP address. I don’t think you want to do that. But a public warning will do just as good – I think.

  324. Look have you not asked others to read and understand in context and even by implication. Please don’t twist and turn. No matter how clever one is, one thing we must hold dear is intellectual honesty. I simply see too many intellectually corrupted people around. The brat I referred to is not whether you are being rich or poor. It is those ivory tower brats, if you know what I mean.

  325. Dracula said: All these are unprovoked and uncalled for insults hurled against posters. It is utter and complete disrespect to you YB Kit.

    Darcula, Who is talking now for unprovoked and uncalled for insults. When I am at receiving end (and you too have contributed to it), nothing seems bothering you. When I retaliate, you suddenly come up with your upright request. Why don’t you read what Darkhorse has said about me first? If you can’t be honest, just shut up.

  326. Dear Kit,

    I’d have to go along with the Count.

    Limkaput obviously has once again ignored the “suggestion” you made to him earlier. I’m afraid unless you give him another “suggestion” perhaps this time worded in stronger terms, he’ll make a bad role model for others to follow. It will destabilize discussions on the blog.

    In fact I’m considering to withdraw from the blog out of sympathy to other serious readers who have been incessantly insulted and assaulted by him.

    Regards.

  327. Y.B. KIT, If you choose to warn posters, I suggest you warn everybody and not just put your warning directly below my posting. You did that twice and most of these brats think that the warning was specifically targeted at me. I confess that I have not been exemplary in the past due to my impatient. However, after your warning, I have made amend. But they took my silence and conciliatory gesture as signs of weakness and continue to abuse me. I have one request, if you want to issue warning, let the warning be for all and please don’t post it directly below my posting again. I will protest strongly if you do so.

  328. Undergrad2, this is what DarkHorse said above: “Could it be the one who cannot control his anger here be suffering from PMS? If that’s the case then his fits uncontrollable anger would be the first among males. Could it then be that the punishment meant for Eve for the First Sin in that Garden of Eden some 2,000 years ago has entered another phase?”

    Unless you have no sense of fairness, I am sure I have every reason to write the stuff I wrote. You go ahead and pressure Sdr Lim threatening to leave to blog. By all means go. Please don’t think too highly of yourself.

  329. Dear Friends,

    Be patient; New Year is approaching; proof that BN is not incharge.

    It’s the people.

    Proof that change is imminent at next General Election.

    When the people of Kelantan can do it why not we.

  330. “You go ahead and pressure Sdr Lim threatening to leave to blog. By all means go. Please don’t think too highly of yourself.” limkaput

    Limkaput, I’m in no position to pressure anybody. YB Kit cannot be pressured. You only have to watch him in action in Parliament to be convinced. Kit is a man in his 60s, has gone through both thick and thin and knows how to separate the chaff from the grain.

    It seems to me you’ve taken the hint. Good. So please do not continue being abrasive and confrontational when making your comments. Separate the commentator from the comments he is making and limit your response to the issues raised.

    For example, Dark Horse posted his comments on an observation made earlier by Lakshy who suggested that it is “not fair” for the government to be spending taxpayer’s money building mosques and not on churches and temples. In doing so Dark Horse merely alerted Lakshy to provisions within the Federal Constitution of 1957 which allows the government to do just that. Those constitutional provisions were identified by Dark Horse as Article 3 (1) and Article 12(2).

    Your response to his comment was:

    “…this parrot thinking that he is so clever by simply vomiting the provisions in the Constitution. This is pathetic to say the least. Seriously I think you better say less because you are a bad influence.”

    It is obvious that you’re not interested in discussing the issues raised.

  331. To Lakshy,

    You raised an interesting issue even the Muslim cleric has not been able to resolve. That is the issue of revenue generated by activities regarded as ‘haram’ e.g. proceeds from the sale of liquor by hotels owned by UMNO. This is a serious issue. Genting Casino is not owned by UMNO.

  332. If there are 331 postings on the thread on the invocation of the nefarious Internal Security Act against the Hindraf Five, this will be a new record this blog can feel proud.

    As it is, there is nothing to be proud at all, but to be very ashamed and distressed at the scores of postings which hijack the thread which trivialise the ISA detentions and the serious issues discussed.

    There is only one person who is gleefully following the descent of this blog – the Information Minister, Zainuddin Maidin who will be able to tell the world that Malaysians are just “goblok” and do not have the maturity to handle freedom of expression, whether cyberspace or terrestrial.

    I believe I am not the only one distressed by the blog’s descent and I call on all posters to end this “war” and get back to the issues raised by the threads and to contribute to raise the quality of the discussion rather than the reverse.

    Kit

  333. undergrad2,
    You raised an interesting issue even the Muslim cleric has not been able to resolve. That is the issue of revenue generated by activities regarded as ‘haram’ e.g. proceeds from the sale of liquor by hotels owned by UMNO. This is a serious issue. Genting Casino is not owned by UMNO.

    Let me relate my own experience. The Malaysia Society in my school last year had simillar disputes. The president who was a Muslim refused to use the funds that was raised from a clubbing event for a Malaysian Dinner. As he said the money was “haram” and not suitable for a “halal” dinner for the Muslims. In the end, the president tried to get some sponsors for the Malaysian dinner.

    I would not blame the president if that was a “Muslim Society”. It’s a Malaysia Society and I feel that religous issues shouldnt be broguht into picture.

  334. UMNO can yell but the world knows Hindraf is right on ethnic cleansing. Here`s the encyclopaedia definition:
    __________________________________________________
    the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportation or forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing sometimes involves the removal of all physical vestiges of the targeted group through the destruction of monuments, cemeteries, and houses of worship.
    ___________________________________________________
    Removal of crosses and statues, the police report against the Sabah mufti`s fatwa on the Matzu statue, stealing bodies in the name of religion, subtly forced conversions, halal turkeys for Xmas all support ethnic cleansing claims in malaysia.

  335. I received this email on the the above comment under moderation:

    If this sort of HP/6 moderation goes on, words may get around the Web and LKS’ Blog could theoretically, at least, lose considerable appeal. What sort of person(s) are behind them, I wonder? Some proxied Chinese School old timers with poor command of English? I don’t think LKS does it himself these days. He does that, when he does, much more efficiently.

  336. Genting is amonst the highest tax payers in the country. Hence the monies collected are used to build mosques, pay the Imam’s and Khadis salaries and pay the entire 95% muslim civil servants. That was my point.

  337. Shamsul`s lies on hindraf are considered ok. But the encyclopaedia brittanica that refutes the BN lies are considered not OK.

    So I think I will no longer be wasting my time here. Cheers everyone. have fun.

  338. shamsul said //Selangor alone, the number of temples exceeds that of mosques and surau put together although the Malays form the largest race as compared to Indians. Do understand that Islam is the official religion here. Of course it is given prominence over other religions just like Christianity is given prominence in UK or Italy. But other religions can be practised here.//

    Numbers of temples might be more than mosques. Mosques are build by our hard-earned tax money. Mosques are super grand and costs tens if not hundreds of Millions to build. Extremely expensive imported marbles and other costly raw material are used to build mosques. Extreme high costs to maintain mosques too.

    On the other hand, temples are build by the believers, not tax money. Temples are build on private houses, upper floor of shoplots, illegal tiny plot of lands because UMO-led Gomen makes it extreme difficult to issue permits. A temple may house only 50 people whereas a mosque may able to take thousands even thought a small kampong may only have 500 residents.

    Yes, Islam is an official religion, but does the Gomen need to squander so much of our tax money to build so many super grand mosques? Do you know how much is spent to maintain all the mosques a year? I guess all this costs are placed under classified information.

  339. Hutchrun : “So I think I will no longer be wasting my time here. Cheers everyone. have fun.”

    Me too, I’ve noticed something about the current moderation too, plus the propensity of commentator(s) who are more interested in showing how clever he/they are by putting down fellow commentators than fighting the common evil. Has anyone wondered why BeritaMalaysia group is nowadays is mainly a read-only site these days and for sometime already?

  340. 1) (REUTERS) – DPM Mr Najib said the Malaysian public had demanded the government take tough action against the five from the Hindu Rights Action Force (Hindraf)

    Question:”Malaysian Public” – More likely a handful of UMNO supporters. Anyone can equally say the Malaysian Public has shown their fearlessness and despite their awareness of the ISA had gone ahead with the demos. These are but the tip of the iceberg of a large segment of Malaysia that says ISA must be abolished. Because both sides of the debate can give arbitrary numbers, DPM’s statement is no more than subjective and unimpressive propaganda.

    2) DPM has told the United States to give fair trials to detainees at its Cuban military prison before criticising it for holding five ethnic Indians. The United States demanded on Thursday that Malaysia provide fair treatment to five leaders of a rights group held under the Internal Security Act (ISA) for a initial two year period. DPM said: ‘Can they first of all give a fair trial to the detainees in Guantanamo Bay? We will only respond if they do so,’ the New Straits Times newspaper quoted deputy prime minister Najib Razak as saying. The ISA is a security law that allows for indefinite detention without trial. There are about 290 detainees at the US camp in Guantanamo, Cuba.

    Question: CAn 2 wrongs make a right? CAn 2 murders, one in retaliation for the other, justify the crimes? Again, no. Why doesn’t Malaysia also ask US to get out of Iraq & Afghanistan before it can release the ISA detainees? Seriously, what have the 5 detainees done to deserve waiting on the US to close Guantanamo?

    3) ‘We have always said people must obey the law. Nobody is above the law. So when the ISA was used, it should not have comes as a surprise,’ he added.

    Question: This is Course 101 in any Law program. CAn the govt pass a law to banish blue-eye babies or black-skin people from walking on the streets of Malaysia? No, it’s an unjust law and so has to be abolished by dissent and, if necessary, demonstrations when the government denies the people a voice to dissent. The ISA is just such a law – contemptible, draconian and abusive to the inalienable rights of man to a voice and as a human being. “So when the ISA was used, it should not have comes as a surprise..” but as a shock, a jarring jolt to the soul just as if the bone and the marrow were being scraped apart. That’s it, NAjib.

    For as long as the ISA exists on MAlaysian law books, there will always be anger anxiety and unease. In the hands of corrupt and immoral politicians, the ISA can easily be tuned into a weapon for mass destruction, Zimbabwe-style or a’la DArfur or ala Nazi gas-chamber! Dear Najib, when policemen are alleged to blow Mongolian beauty to bits, what can’t police do with devils? Then without an IPCMC, what can happen is only to be left to the imagination? This is why ISA must be abolished so that there is no chance of any abuse.

    You only have to read “Lord of the Flies” by William Golding, Nobel Prize winner, to be convinced that the boundaries between savagery and sanity is a very fine line. Mankind have repeatedly turn into savages when sanity leaves their moorings. So ISA’s demise will deny lunatics a harbour for their evil propensities.

  341. Dear Shamsul,
    U can hv yr opinions, but if Msia continue all the present policies, economic, NEP, education quota, ISA, inefficient wasteful, mega projects, contracts cost billions, biased, divide people into race conscious, inefficient govt delivery systems Don’t make people think like ONE as Msian, (but Malay, Indian , Chinese, Iban, kadazan etc)
    Can forget seeing Msia in a higher level of development n Wawasan 2020. By 2020. ,many countries around Msia will overtake Msia. unless Msia can discover more hugh oil reserve along the way!
    Remember if Msia suffer, all Msian, irrespective of races will also suffer!

  342. Y.B. Kit,
    Thank you for being patient and understanding. Rightly we shouldn’t create more problems for you given the busy schedule and the number of issues you have to bear each day. I hereby withdraw all insults and abrasive words used.

  343. Undergrad2,

    With regard to my comments on funding for mosques and surau, I sincerely believe that the issue raise by lakshy is a political issue. It is pointless (to me) to quote what is in the Constitution. As I have said earlier, if the constitution is not fair, we shall see that through the political process, the relevant provisions are changed. On the other hand, if the constitution is fair but the implementation is not, then we shall see that it is rectified. That is the whole purpose of participating in politics. It is pointless when some issues are raised, we just quote the constitution as if there is nothing left to do. Politics is the art of impossible!

    You yourself have mentioned before that our constitution was amended numerous times. We ought to remind ourselves that amendments are political processes, not just a legal one. Through the political power they gathered, they amended the constitution successively to suit their agenda and to further their way of life at the expense of others. So if we continue to look to the constitution as a guide for our struggle, then we are missing the whole point. For example Article 112 (sorry I hope it is the right article, can’t remember well nowadays) regarding the jurisdiction of High Court. Are we to continue subscribing to the amended version and the court precedent set? To me certainly not! So where do we go from here? Today, if a non Muslim entangled with a Muslim in a
    Syariah court, are we going to quote the amended constitution and the court precedent and say that there is nothing much we could do about it. I am sorry, this is the impression I gathered from DarkHorse’s argument on the funding of mosques and surau.

    On other hand, there are provisions in the constitution that are supposed to bring equity and fairness to all but the implementation is skewed in favour of those in power. For example, there are provisions which provide privileges for the Malays but the implementation over the years has been totally skewed in favour of the well-connected including the non Malays. We then have to seek rectification in such a situation which to me is again a political process.

  344. Undergrad2,
    Then there are arguments over unfair demarcation of constituency. Factually, the information given by DarkHorse was not correct. According to him, EC can’t draw up constituencies where the gap in the number of voters in different constituencies is excessive large. My point is EC has been drawing up completely lopsided constituencies for umpteen years. (I have earlier quoted some constituencies to illustrate the point made). In this regard, I think the original provision (which more or less specified the ratio of voters between urban and rural constituencies) was deleted through constitutional amendment many years back.

    The point I want to make is that lots of issues we face today are political in nature. It is no point to keep stating what is in constitution today and start to argue within its confine. We urgently need to know how we can change things around through the political process

  345. They say a blog is as good as those who visit it to share their thoughts. This is a political blog different from most other blogs if not for any other reason it is for the simple reason that it is run by the Leader of the Opposition in Parliament.

    Contributors to this blog are from a diverse group. Some visit to drop one-liners or so-called words of wisdom. Some visit this blog to vent their frustrations. Kit uses the latter as a barometer to gauge the political temperature so that he could then pass it on in his often fiery speeches. Some are student activists and future leaders, budding politicians who would one day occupy seats in the country’s legislature, and help make the nation’s laws.

    They may be here to show off what they know and in the process discover what they don’t know. It is a learning and a humbling experience at the same time for them. They emerge as better citizens of tomorrow serving the country in their chosen fields. If some among them move on to make politics their career and later take their seats in the nation’s highest law making body either as DAP members or have different political affiliations then Kit’s blog would have achieved its purpose. This blog then becomes training ground for the leaders of tomorrow. For that to happen it is essential that we encourage a diversity of opinions. I can only speak for myself but we should be more interested to listen to readers who disagree with Kit than those who agree with him. How else would we be able to take a glimpse into their thought processes and to understand those with political views opposite to our own. After all what is politics if not the search for common ground on which to build the nation’s policies.

    We can take comfort in knowing that YB Kit’s blog is already in a class of its own. While blogs like Malaysia-Today and Susan Loone’s are strewn with profanities when not moderated, readers on this blog exercise self-censorship for the most part. Rarely had YB Kit had to step in to censure visitors to his blog.

    Let us readers and contributors show our appreciation to YB Kit for hosting this blog by not trivializing it with our personal comments on commentators rather than the issues.

  346. …”we should be more interested to listen to readers who disagree with Kit than those who agree with him. How else would we be able to take a glimpse into their thought processes and to understand those with political views opposite to our own”…Undergrad2

    Precisely and wisely said too; we can disagree without emotional involvement and we help maintain the high regard this blog has earned itself.

    Pursuing the point mentioned in limkamput’s latest post, can anyone point out where information on the results of Malaysian general election (say 2004) be found. I believe (but I could be wrong) such info (constituencies, sizes, winning majority etc) is in the public domain and not protected under OSA. The EC website contains only scant static information. I know this is out of topic, but I have been waiting for a while for a thread on elections to appear.

    Anyway, let me take this opportunity to send season’s greetings to all and wishes for a safe and happy holidays. And for a bit of a light hearted banter, I might just add that while Undergrad2 is hubba..hubba..ing to his favourite Teddy Bear and looking forward to a white Christmas, here I am swealtering in the lead up to a merry hot CROSSmas and the nearest thing to a white Christmas might just be Perry Como’s “I’m dreaming of a ……”. It might be fair to say that many in the community of Malaysian diaspora have their hearts, thoughts and prayers in the welfare of Malaysians at ‘tanah tumpahnya darah ku’ when we give our two bobs worth of comments.

  347. “..while Undergrad2 is hubba..hubba..ing to his favourite Teddy Bear and looking forward to a white Christmas, here I am swealtering in the lead up to a merry hot CROSSmas…” ALtPJK

    Frankly ALtPJK, even with all the tension back in Malaysia I’d be more than happy to swap places with you (assuming you’re in Malaysia). I rather sweat then shiver in the cold! X’mas is a lot more fun in Malaysia, ‘Pearl of the Orient’ than in the “Land of the Free and Home of the Brave”. Once I spent X’mas in Melbourne, Oz and the place suddenly became deserted and I felt miserable enough to want to swim back to Malaysia – until I met a ‘marginalized’ Malaysian Indian cabbie from Penang who helped me retain what’s left of my sanity!

    Come X’mas people here would go mad, shopping till they drop. If they cannot be part of the shopping madness they’ll feel so depressed as to want to commit suicide in some cases! I’m not joking. The real meaning of Christmas is lost.

    MERRY X’MAS TO YOU & HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

    Santa Claus is not allowed this year to say, “Hoe Hoe Hoe!” It would not be politically correct.

  348. ALtPJK Says: Pursuing the point mentioned in limkamput’s latest post, can anyone point out where information on the results of Malaysian general election (say 2004) be found.

    If you have copies of old newspapers during the general election, you can find the info you want from there. Years back, the Government used to publish the election results in detail, i.e. by each constituency, by race, the vote each party gathered, the majority etc. I am not sure such publication is still available now. But I think MPs should have a copy.

  349. undergrad2 says: We can take comfort in knowing that YB Kit’s blog is already in a class of its own.

    Yes, very well said!

    All good things bring up by bloggers in this blog will go directly to Parliament via Kit, the Opposition Leader in Parliament.

  350. Dear Cheng onn Soo.

    Many thanks for your remarks. But I am afraid you do not get my point. I wa simply referring to UMNO bashing by Hindraf and many who responsed here.

    I was simply pointing a “fitnah” that Hindraf leaders told the world. Hindraf leaders claimed that Malaysian Govt( specific mention on Islam , UMNO) as conducting ethni cleansing. Please answer me. Do you agree with the allegation? Yes or No.

    To the Malays( the blamed race here), Hindraf was clearly lied to the world, inciting hatred vs UMNO, Malays, Islam. That is how Malays look at the issue. Why Hindraf did not care to inform the Indians that a site was offered to build a new temple. Why no mention on surau also being demolished in Selangor. The answer is simple. The intention is to manipulate and cause anger vs the UMNO led govt.

    In no way I said I tolerate inefficient civil services, corruption or some politicians who behave like idiots in Parliament, be they from ruling party or opposition. What I am stressing is a simple fact that even my Indian friends agree. That the UMNO led govt, despites its weaknesses, still consider the rights of Indians, still willing to put an Indian as a candidate in Malay majority area.

    As a Malay leader put it clearly” Jahat sangatkah orang Melayu sampai dituduh melakukan pembunuhan etnik. Jahat sangatkah orang Melayu kalau sekolah aliran Cina dan India masih menerima sumbangan Kerajaan , sesuatu yang tiada bandingan dalam dunia ini”.

  352. Dear Cheng Onn Soo.

    As for blaming Govt on race conscious, I think you are not being fair to the Govt. Govt has a major role here. So are the rakyat. Several years ago, Dr Mahathir tried the Wawasan School concept. However, some politicians like Lim Kit siang, hailed from Jurassic Era played the racial gallery, instilling fear on the Chinese that this is a ploy to eliminate Chinese School.

    And it is an open secret that Mandarin requirement is used( and seen) to deny Malays and Indians into private sectors. My point blank view of course will anger some people who think they are the only one who can criticize, others can not.

    My point is simple. Everybody play his/her part here. At least, the Govt tries to accomodate all races. I remember several Chinese academicians appointed as Deputy Vice Chancellor in public universities, not to mention allocation to UTAR which is a good decision.

  353. DEar Mendela.

    Many thanks for your remarks. They say seeing is believing. Why not take a drive to Puchong. You will come across a new Church on a prime area. Another large temple is under constant construction , also in Puchong.

    It is unfair that you say all mosques are super grand. As an example, a mosque in Batu 13, Puchong is a humble structure. It is not a waste as it is full to the brim on Friday prayer. I am sure you are aware that some temples are also quite grand.

    And to accuse UMNO led govt of making life difficult( construction of temples) is quite far-fetched. How you explain the construction of a grand temple in Puchong.

    Let us appreciate that in this blessed country, nobody is denied the right to worship, according to his belief.

  354. “As a Malay leader put it clearly” Jahat sangatkah orang Melayu sampai dituduh melakukan pembunuhan etnik. Jahat sangatkah orang Melayu kalau sekolah aliran Cina dan India masih menerima sumbangan Kerajaan , sesuatu yang tiada bandingan dalam dunia ini”” Shamshul Anuar.

    Translated it reads:

    Are the Malays that evil as to be accused of the horrific crime of ethnic cleansing? Are the Malays that ‘bad’ as to allow Chinese and Tamil Schools to continue to receive government funding – something that has no comparison anywhere else in the world?

    This is the sort of strong emotional response that HINDRAF led by their leaders who have since been detained under the ISA, has drawn from among moderate Malays and followers of UMNO. Never the extremists among them. The appeal to emotions is so strong though simply worded, that we would do best not to ignore it. The Malays being a subservient race that has seen worse times not too long ago are not about to lose control! That appears to be the message.

    I blame the leaders of HINDRAF (as opposed to their followers) for seeking the racial route, not caring for the consequences to the families of demonstrators caught in the ‘game of chicken’ that they as leaders chose to play with this UMNO led government – a government which left on its own is more likely to implode rather than explode.

    Though the issue is racial, one wonders if they should have split ranks from the other races and hold a public rally of their own in the face of strong police warnings after two earlier rallies have torn open wounds which were still raw. Or did their leaders smell blood in the water? I don’t think Kit today a veteran politician that he is, would have gone ahead with the rally with or without police permit. The younger Kit in the late 60s probably would.

    HINDRAF in short has given the BN government the excuse they are looking for. I doubt if there would have been this many arrests from among BERSIH supporters had there been no HINDRAF.

    It was the HINDRAF leaders who appealed to international opinion through their cries of ethnic cleansing by a government who is obviously guilty of ignoring their demands for fair treatment and reasonable opportunities in the market place.

    It was the leaders of HINDRAF who let the genie out of the bottle.

  355. Did anyone tell you that the land on which the Church of Our Lady of Guadalupe, Puchong previously held freehold status has been changed to 60-year lease? Who knows when this sleight of hand took place!

  356. shamshul anuar,
    let me just tell you this: for the first time the government woke up and took notice of what is happening to other races in this country. I think we all can’t deny this. It does not matter whether some extreme words were used by HINDRAF or otherwise. We have been whispering for 50 years now through MIC and other so called BN component parties and see what we get. Malaysia was and is meant to be a multiracial, multi-religious, cosmopolitan and dynamic country. Look at us today. What has it become? I guess it is too sensitive for me to say but I think many here know what it is. Umno has always thought that they are magnanimous and caring to the needs of other races. But I think they are blind to institutionalised racism.

  357. You talk so eloquently about Malays voting other races into Parliament and State Assemblies. But the motive was never multi-racism. You vote other races because it serves Malay interest well – to continue having complete hegemony in this country while at the same time giving you a multiracial face. Today, Indian Malaysians are fighting for food on the table or roof over their head. Once they attain that, they will be like Chinese Malaysians. But, do you know the grievances of Chinese Malaysians? The problem of Chinese Malaysians is not because they do not have food or roof. The problem is because they cannot achieve their full potential and they have no opportunity to contribute to the betterment of Malaysia.

    All important Cabinet posts with substantive power are held by Malays. All (I think all) CEOs of important GLCs and statutory bodies are held by Malays. All Secretaries General and Heads of departments of important ministries and agencies are held by Malays. None of the Vice Chancellor in Public Universities is held by non-Malays. Then what about the Police, the Judiciary, the municipalities, the districts, the armed forces, ACA, and now increasingly the teaching profession. Of course it is easy to say the Non Malays are not interested in the public service. This is just a convenient argument. But let me come back to you later on this. Just to give you some idea how important public service is: one or two large GLCs’ profits are as big as the profits of all companies listed in Bursa Malaysia. This country is rich beyond belief, but where do all the monies go?

    Now, since the advent of NEP, who actually were holding positions of power and influence in this country? I am sure all can agree that it is the Malays. Now if after almost 40 years of NEP and there is little success to show (at least that is what you people claim and that is why you need another 100 years may be), who do you want to blame? Ah, may be you want to blame the non-Malays again for sabotaging and for bribing Government official. Well, my argument is that between the receivers and givers, the receivers always have more power. If there are Non-Malays who want to bribe, we must have Malays who are ever willing to receive and in the process the NEP is sacrificed.

    Since NEP under the care of Malays has achieved only limited success, can we not let the Non-Malays manage the policy for a period of time? Let us manage important Ministries such as Finance, Trade, EPU, the GLCs, the Judiciary, the municipalities, ACA, and the Audit Department. Since you Malays are concerned with political power, you may retain the police and the armed forces under your care. Let the Malays set the KPIs (key performance indicators) including specific NEP targets. Let the Non-Malays deliver for you the targets you have set. How about it? I am thinking aloud, I am not talking bulls.

  358. Guys,

    Shamsul has selective attention. May be a problem of the malays. Many pertinent points raised by others are ignored while he goes on and on ad nauseum on selected points.

    When he says bn has been fair, he goes by his own standards as he, like umno, considers non-malays as johnny-come-latelys. He does not see non-malays as entitled to equal rights. So whatever little scraps thrown at the non-malays are seen as largesse.

    He also does not and and cannot see that pri-bumis such as the kadazan, bidayuh, iban etc have less than the malays, and cannot appreciate the fact that bn/umno have deprived many of them of their rights.

    What the rally has done is to wake bn/umno from its stupor. More marginalised groups are going to claim their rights.

    But do you really see what is behind all of this? It’s the call of globalisation. While the rakyat can see it coming (heck its alrady here!), some of the people in power, are still in a state of denial. And they can remain in power because of the likes of people like shamsul.

    Where is our Multimedia Supercorrridor in comparison to Australia, Korea, etc? We are struggling to deliver broadband at 256k when they deliver 4-8MB to homes. Whats our penetration rate? Do you know that some towns in China have upto 50% of its population using the net? When did China open up?

    Do you know the kinds of knowledge work CHina and India have started taking? And we were the ones to first launch the MSC of course, with loads of rakyats money!

  359. It is a matter of definition. Despite definitions being given here, some are still unable to or refuse to understand.

    Fine lets take the word bumiputra as an example. The root words come from 2 sanskrit words, bumi and putra. They mean Earth/Soil and Son. Hence bumiputra is taken to mean sons of the earth/soil. So tell me who is a bumiputra? The term bumiputra is not defined in the constitution….did you guys know that?

    Although Malay is defined, bumiputra was a phrase that was coined much later by TDI. And of course then we had the indigeneous peoples of Sarawak/Sabah coining the phrase pri-bumi! Interesting isn’t it? That means they predate the bumiputras. So what then is the definition of a bumiputra?

    Couldn’t one say that all peoples born in Malaysia are Sons of the Soil? It’s a matter of definition isn’t it?

    Now the irony is that a person coming from Indonesia can eventually have more rights than a person born here or even several generations born here. So now tell me how did he become a bumiputra? It all goes back to the definition and interpretation.

    Now go figure.

  360. “There is a huge political vacuum now waiting to be filled. There is a real role today for a movement that could advance the agenda of how we globalize—not whether we globalize. The best place such a movement could start is rural India.

    “Both the Congress and its left allies would be risking India’s future if they draw the wrong conclusions from this [2004] election,’ Pratap Bhanu Mehta, who heads the Center for Policy Research in Delhi, wrote in The Hindu newspaper. “This is not a revolt against the market, it is a protest against the state; this is not resentment against the gains of liberalization, but a call for the state to put its house in order through even more reform…The revolt against holders of power is not a revolt of the poor against the rich: ordinary people are far less prone to resent other people’s success than intellectuals suppose. It is rather an expression of the fact that the reform of the state has not gone far enough.”

    This is why the most important forces fighting poverty in India today, in my view, are those NGO’s fighting for better local governance, using the Internet and other modern tools of the flat world to put a spotlight on corruption, mismanagement and tax avoidance. The most important, effective, and meaningful populists in the world today are not those handing out money. They are those with an agenda to drive reform retail at the local level in their countries – to make it easier for the little men and women to register their land, even if they are squatters; to start a new business, no matter how small; and to get minimal justice from the legal system. Modern populism, to be effective and meaningful, should be about reform retail – making globalization workable, sustainable, and fair for more people by improving their local governance, so that the money ear-marked for the poor actually gets to them and so that their natural entrepreneurship can get unlocked. It is through local government that people plug into the system and get to enjoy the benefits of the flattening rather than just observe them.”

    Taken from Thomas Friedman’s “The World is Flat”, pp 551

  361. My mother-in-law is an Indian of Portuguese descent (several generation remote) and she is classified as ‘bumiputra’ and gets to enjoy the ‘favoured class’ treatment when she applies for bumiputra allocated shares.

  362. feel sorry for one guy, who still like to compare about bangsa.
    even god himself will tell him that we are all the same. no one is above each other, but yet one bangsa still think they are above all… luckily, dia tak kata, dunia ni kita punya, sure jahanam terus!

  363. Shamsul, we all know why you are here trying to justify the use of ISA on the Hindraf 5. Whether you are sent here by your political master or you do it out of own political beliefs, you will be naive to think the readers here will agree with your arguments, may I add all the point you raised here were in fact known but discarded by right thinking Malaysians here. You gotta be just putting in words here if you know what I mean, we need facts and follow by actions. Yes, you or your political master must have realized how important it is to justify Hindraf 5 arrest, and you choose to come in here knowing this blog has an international audiences, (except for some kiddy arguments here) most of the comments here is taken seriously by all readers, but the point is, this blog has considerable influences and impacts that will shape public and international opinions about the political reality in Malaysia, you know that and that’s why you came in trying to justify the used of ISA, and when that failed to convinced us you attacked Lim Kit Siang as outdated politician? Is that all you can do? Why don’t you go back to where you belong and rot there, if there’s anything you can do to help is speak against the abusive and corrupt regime of Abdullah, but clearly you are part of it.

  365. Dawsheng,

    Don’t let yourself be drawn into behaving like those BN MPs in Parliament who would try to shout down Kit every time he stands up to exercise his freedom of speech!

    On the contrary this political blog though opposition in nature needs the likes of Shamshul who shows courage here by dropping by to post his comments knowing that his opinion on the issues would attract the wrath of most of the members here – not Members of Parliament or MPs but members of Kit’s Blog or MKBs.

    Let us not behave like dogs in the manger.

    Diversity of opinions, if for no other reason but for its diversity, should be welcome so long as they are made with respect to the others who may not share the same opinion.

  366. The temples in Puchong and elsewhere as well as the Churches are built by money from the believers, not from gomen money which is my and your taxed income!

    Look I pay taxes, and it pays for construction of mosques, but not temples? Is that justified? Heck it pays the salaries of the muftis who condemn other races publicly (perak mufti). Chee-sin!

    I pay to the temples, but I dont get tax deduction for it! And do you know that when we pay taxes and our money which is earned working in Malaysia to develop malaysia further and after it is taxed and we pay donations for the temples we get no tax rebate? Do you know that? Why is it different for the malays/muslims?

    For muslims whatever zakat you pay is deducted from your payable tax. So whose money is used more for the admin of the country?

    I think the kadazans/ibans/bidayuh etc should take up this issue. Why dont they get public/gomen aid to build their places of worship? I mean not the mosques, I mean for their other beliefs! They are bumiputra in the true sense of the word. Why the difference in treatment for this class of bumiputra? Or are there classes of bumiputra? Different rights for different classes of bumiputra?

    Did you know that for Sarawak, a person for whom both his/her parents are indegenous natives of Sarawak bumiputra is one whose parents are both

  367. The temples in Puchong and elsewhere as well as the Churches are built by money from the believers, not from gomen money which is my and your taxed income! It is really pathetic to thump ones chest and claim to be fair when a church or temple is being built to say the gomen is fair. On the other hand you have temples being torn down. Excuse me, at best the gomen only provides alternative site to build a temple. It takes money to rebuild a temple from the ground. Where is this money coming from? there is no compensation paid for the rebuilding so it will take time to generate enough funds to build a temple on an alternative site. kapish?

    Look I pay taxes, and it pays for construction of mosques, but not temples? Is that justified? Heck it pays the salaries of the muftis who condemn other races publicly (e.g. perak mufti). Chee-sin!

    I pay to the temples, but I dont get tax deduction for it! Do you know that when we pay taxes and our money which is earned working in Malaysia to develop malaysia further and after it is taxed and we pay donations for the temples we get no tax rebate? Do you know that? Why is it different for the malays/muslims?

    For muslims whatever zakat you pay is deducted from your payable tax. So whose money is used more for the admin of the country?

    I think the kadazans/ibans/bidayuh etc should take up this issue. Why dont they get public/gomen aid to build their places of worship? I mean not the mosques, I mean for their other beliefs! They are bumiputra in the true sense of the word. Why the difference in treatment for this class of bumiputra? Or are there many sub-classes of bumiputra? Different rights for different classes of bumiputra?

    Did you know that for Sarawak, only a person for whom both his/her parents are indegenous natives of Sarawak is classified a Bumiputra. There is no reference to religion. So a Malay who goes to Sarawak from West malaysia, would not qualify for bumiputra rights in Sarawak? One wonders…

  368. LIncoln’s Great speech at Gettysberg comes to mind:-

    Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

    Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

    But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate — we can not consecrate — we can not hallow — this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us — that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion — that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain — that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom — and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

  370. When you have control of 92% of Parliament can it be democratic?

    I guess it can be if the MP is allowed to vote according to his beliefs and his conscience? But we have all seen what happened in our Parliament to Shahrir who was once the BBC chairman when he supported the opposition motion. or What happened to Sothi when he spoke up against the de-recognition of some Russian Medical Uni?

    So where are the rights of the minority or even the majority protected in such a situation? Only the rights of the MP’s from bn and the big guns are protected.

    Why do I say this? What happened to Jasin MP and his close one eye? What happened when he showed that his vandetta against teh Customs dept was because he did not get the Merc Benz of his choice? I for one dont even know the difference between the Mercs.

    What happened to the Bocor MP’s?

    What about the food for aid scam that involves people in high office?

    What about the supply of centrifuge parts to a libyan company?

    Why no query about misuse of funds for the PKFTZ?

    Why no query about purchase of weapons/arms through a small company?

    So are the majority’s interests being protected when we have a 92% majority? 2/3rds would be too much as they can amend any law and get away with crime. No government must be given more than 55%. There must be proper checks and balances so that a democracy can work for the rakyat.

    Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely!

  371. “Look I pay taxes, and it pays for construction of mosques, but not temples? Is that justified?”

    The way to seek ‘change’ cannot be through our courts but the polls. Why? Because the grievances expressed fail to raise any constitutional issues.

    For as long as Islam is the “official religion of the federation’ (and no other religion is mentioned) and for as long as there are Articles like 12 (2) mosques will continue to receive government funding. No such funding as referred by you is provided for under the Constitution. That is not all. For as long as there are Articles like Article 153 there will continue be a constitutional basis for NEP type policies.

    The solution? The solution would be to change the government through the electoral process and put another party in control of Parliament – not just majority control but with two-thirds majority control – and then amend the Federal Constitution of 1957 to delete the offending provisions.

    The best solution, and the only solution in my opinion, is to make our Constitution completely secular and separate church (read: mosque) from state.

    Can we do that?

  373. Look back at the intention behind the clauses:- (Taken from Wiki)-

    The Reid Commission reported that Tunku Abdul Rahman and the Malay Rulers had asked that “in an independent Malaya all nationals should be accorded equal rights, privileges and opportunities and there must not be discrimination on grounds of race and creed.” At that time, Tunku Abdul Rahman was the leader of the United Malays National Organisation (UMNO), which led the Alliance coalition. Eventually the Alliance would become the Barisan Nasional and Tunku Abdul Rahman later became the first Prime Minister of Malaysia. When succeeding to the UMNO Presidency, Tunku had expressed doubts about the loyalty of the non-Malays to Malaya, and as a result, insisted that this be settled before they be granted citizenship. However, he also stated that “For those who love and feel they owe undivided loyalty to this country, we will welcome them as Malayans. They must truly be Malayans, and they will have the same rights and privileges as the Malays.”[3]

    The Commission found the existing privileges accorded to the Malays included the allocation of extensive Malay land reservations. In addition, the Commission discovered quotas for admission to the public services with a general rule that “not more than one-quarter of new entrants [to a particular service] should be non-Malays.” Operation quotas existed in regard to the issuing of permits or licences for the operation of certain businesses “chiefly concerned with road haulage and passenger vehicles for hire.” In addition, there existed “scholarships, bursaries and other forms of aid for educational purpose” where preference was given to Malays.[2]

    Although the Commission reported it did not find opposition to the continuance of the existing privileges for a certain length of time, it stated that “there was great opposition in some quarters to any increase of the present preferences and to their being continued for any prolonged period.” The Commission recommended that the existing privileges should be continued as the “Malays would be at a serious and unfair disadvantage compared with other communities if they were suddenly withdrawn.” However, “in due course the present preferences should be reduced and should ultimately cease.” The Commission suggested that these provisions be revisited in 15 years, and that a report should be presented to the appropriate legislature (currently the Parliament of Malaysia) and that the “legislature should then determine either to retain or to reduce any quota or to discontinue it entirely.”[2]

  375. In the memo that was to be handed by them to the british High Comm on 25th November, there was no attack made against the Malays. This was twisted by umno.

    the terms used are poor, suppressed, underclass Indians some of whom are living under slavery conditions under umno controlled malaysian government.

    Please read the memo before talking about it. Dont just swallow what is dished out by the bn media apparatus.

  376. “The Reid Commission had specified the intent of Article 153 to be addressing the imbalance between the Chinese and Malays in terms of economic equity.”

    If this is true, then the Indians have more than been marginalised. Their rights have been trampelled upon.

  377. Dear Shamsul,don’t harp on the Hindraf’s claim of ethnic cleansing.It was pointed out by Saudara Lim that the claim was just a misnomer or exaggeration.But does the making of that claim by Hindraf ( and later it has been proven baseless) justify retaliation and emotional backlash by the majority as represented by you?

    Concerning the requirement of Mandarin by certain firms,I think the firms concerned need to do business with China or they may have a large clientele made up of Mandarin speaking people.Surely it is only natural they should prefer to hire those who are also proficient in Mandarin.Mind you,you can be a Malay or any other races as long as you know the language.Sometimes I wonder why after 50 years of independence,there are very few Malays who are able to converse in Chinese.Of course we do not deny the fact that there are about 60000 Malay students studying in SRC in the country.Being a multi racial and multi lingual society,the opportunities to learn each other’s language abound.Just like almost all of us can speak and write Bahasa.I guess the Malays lack the willingness to learn it .Our leaders at the most only can utter a few hardly comprehensible words in Chinese dialect like Hockkien during MCA or Gerakan organised functions.If the leaders do not set example,we do not expect the people to follow.However the newly elected Prime Minister of Australis Ken Rudd can put to shame on our leaders as he can even communicate with Chinese leaders like Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao without the aid of an interpreter.

  378. ‘Diversity of opinions, if for no other reason but for its diversity, should be welcome so long as they are made with respect to the others who may not share the same opinion.’

    he came here, he voiced out and he has been treated like a gentleman. we go out, we voiced out but they treated us like animals, they uses isa and put us in jail.

  380. In their 18 point memo, they also do not attack the malays. Do read it.

    They do call for affirmative action for all poor Malaysians! Minimum wage for all Malaysians. Independence of Judiciary, AG, Police, Suhakam etc which will be for all malaysians.

    Homeless Malaysians to be provided affordable homes.

    Transparency from the gomen on affirmative action plans showing education places, licenses, scholarships, grants, loans, permits, licenses, opportunities etc by publishing the same in the official website of the Government of Malaysia.

    These would be for the benefit of all malaysians.

    Now when or how does that make them a terrorist organisation?

    They do ask for protection of hindu temples etc which are also provided for under the Reid Commission. They do ask for an investigation by a Royal Commission on the Kg Medan incident.

    They do ask for race and religion based discrimination to be stopped and ask for a special Race Relations Commission Act 2007, an Equal Opportunities Commission Act 2007 and a Freedom of Religion Commissions Act 2007 be passed.

    They call for a Stop to the victimization and direct discrimination by the Police and all other state authorities of the Indians.

    They did also ask for 20 Opp voices in Parliament from the Indian community, and 20% of top posts in Govt to be reserved for Indians for the next 15 years. They also ask for full funding for all tamil schools. I think the 20 Opp voices is good. No matter who is in govt, these guys can still vote according to principles, and with their conscience. Not according to party lines.

    This memo is dated 12th August addressed to PM who then says he was never approached by them. pm…..wake up and get your act together. Procrastination can be a great evil.

  381. In today’s papers, the pm is promising Equal Education for All. Of course he has no plan for it, and is just making another one of his many promises.

    He admitted that what the government had done before this may not be enough. So after admitting he has not done enough, does he even feel any shame or remorse for having jailed the 31 +5? And does he announce their release? After all he is admitting that their cause and claim has merit!

    And his promise, “I can assure you that we will continue to do more in future”. Who is going to buy your words pm? Words only. Its a bit late for that. Action speaks louder than words. You need to act. And that does not mean getting NST to run some stories on Indians or you carrying an Indian child for a photo op. Shame on you, being so opportunistic! And you claim to be a pm of all malaysians. I beg to differ as your actions point otherwise.

  382. Why were they arrested? Because they had thrown a dare to the AG and IGP to withdraw allegations that theya re linked to terrorists. That notice expires today. Note that in the court proceedings all allegations about terrorist links have been stricken out by the judge. Yet the link to terrorism is leaked out to the papers by you know who.

    Failing to get a retraction from the AG and IGP, they intend to sue them for damages. That notice expires today. I sure hope they have someone ready to file their claim and file it in the courts.

    So thats why these guys were arrested and under ISA no less.

  384. he came here, he voiced out and he has been treated like a gentleman. we go out, we voiced out but they treated us like animals, they uses isa and put us in jail.

    Well said. Imagine how many Malays we have to enlighten? Racism is an institution and most Malays are genuinely blind to it.

  385. The best solution, and the only solution in my opinion, is to make our Constitution completely secular and separate church (read: mosque) from state. Can we do that? DarkHorse

    I think we should try, it is difficult, but we should try. This is what politics is all about. We participate in party politics not just to be in opposition. The oppositions should harbour ambition some day they too could be in power to put forth its agenda and policy. It is a long way off for Malaysia, but one just has to look at Australia and how the major policies on environment and work choices are changed overnight when labour came into power.

  386. After going through the various postings, I think that there is at least one thing we could learn from Shamshul Anuar. It doesn’t matter whether we agree with his views or whether what he had raised are factually correct, but I admire the manner he had carried himself: gentle, no strong or abrasive words used, no name-calling, no personal attack or hurling of insults, despite the position he is in.

  387. Saudara Shamsul,

    Just a few points….

    Why Hindraf leaders chose not to tell the Indians about surau being demolished in Selangor. I told my indian friends about surau being demolished( illegally built) . They stared at me. The response is this “We do not know this”…..

    About why Hindraf did not highlight that land was given to relocate the temple……

    Please find a malaysiakini interview by Uthaya titled “I’m not a racist”….in case you can’t “find” it or too “busy”….these are some of the extracts….

    Malaysiakini: Why didn’t Hindraf raise the issue of that surau the was also demolished and show you are not racist?

    Uthaya :Because the surau was already replaced with a bigger surau, fully funded by the government. It is a non-issue. […] Until today, none of these groups – political parties, NGOs or even Umno – have said anything (about the fact).that no Hindu temple has been given government land or is fully funded by the government. There is zero. Nobody talks about it. But to me Hindu temples being relocated next to sewerage tanks – that is ethnic cleansing a la Malaysia. Every three weeks, a temple is demolished. If you don’t call it ethnic cleansing, what is it then? In Bosnia, you kill people. (But ethnic cleansing) a la Malaysia is worse because you are living and suffering on a day to day basis.

    To find out the truth……..dig the X File….or maybe you might need the help of Mulder and Scully……but than “the Cigarette-Smoking Man” might be here too……..

  388. Yes, I fully agreed with kcb comments on Shamsul. We should have more Malays like him. I believe he is opened to receive new inputs and may change his mindset. Salute to you Shamsul, my fellow Malaysian!

  389. To: Lakshy

    Point taken.

    But may I ask you what has the REID Commission post-Independent recommendations got to do with the Federal Constitution of Malaya 1957 as a document after it has been passed into law? Was there a review by the REID Commission after Independence in 1957? Are you suggesting that their recommendations have the force of law? You lost me here!

    Your quarrel appears to be with the national ‘consensus’ reached during the negotiations which proposals were adopted and passed into law and became the Federal Constitution of Malaya 1957 the precursor of the present Federal Constitution of Malaysia 1957.

    All those are but pages of history. Those are ‘yesterday’ issues. Fast forward fifty years later, many feel that the Federal Constitution of 1957 has been amended numerous times that it has little resemblance to the original document – which embodied that national ‘consensus’ that you spoke of, and which you disagree with.

    Am I not right so far?

    You made an interesting observation on an issue which belongs more to the area of political theory and history rather than constitutional law i.e. when a single political party has almost complete control of the country’s national legislature, the government can no longer lay claim to it being a ‘democratic’ one. But that’s what democracy is about i.e. the rule of the majority by the majority for the whole. Critics warn of the danger of slipping into tyranny and the tyranny they speak about would be the tyranny of the majority over the minority. Here we are moving from political thoughts, history and into philosophy. I have no wish to go there!

    The only hope of moving closer to the kind of pre-1957 national ‘consensus’ you would personally like to see is through the electoral process i.e. by putting into power the political party which best represents your views to run the government. It is likely to be a coalition of parties rather than one single party and the process is never easy because it is all about compromise.

  390. Dawsheng: “He (Shamshul Anuar) came here, he voiced out and he has been treated like a gentleman. ”

    Do you call telling a visitor to this blog: “Why don’t you go back to where you belong and rot …” treating him “like a gentleman”? If you do then there may be others who would like to reciprocate your ‘gentlemanliness’.

  392. In that case it is never a more opportune moment than now to remind ourselves of what KIT said earlier:

    “There is only one person who is gleefully following the descent of this blog – the Information Minister, Zainuddin Maidin who will be able to tell the world that Malaysians are just “goblok” and do not have the maturity to handle freedom of expression, whether cyberspace or terrestrial.”

  396. limkamput,

    I would like to withdraw a dated comment I made about you, which was reproduced by DiaperHead above, apparently not with the best of his intentions, because it was no longer valid, and in fact grossly unfair to you in the light of later development, especially after my first-hand experience and realization of the double standards of civility being practised earlier, prior to 16/12/07. I am sorry.

    From the beginning after reading about your great debate with Cambridge brat, I had no doubt about the essence of your contributions despite the mob attacks against you. You did hold your ground very well indeed.

    I believe you are vindicated by YB Lim’s comment in the current thread reproduced below:

    START:
    I feel proud that in the ensuing 50-odd postings, there have been exemplary civility – that we can agree to disagree, however vehemently, without being disagreeable. I want to commend in particular limkamput for his contribution.

    Let us move on EARNEST from 16/12/07 6.32.22 am and together build a blog which can be a byword for strong but civil opinions. – Kit]

    END:

  399. As a Malay leader put it clearly” Jahat sangatkah orang Melayu sampai dituduh melakukan pembunuhan etnik. Jahat sangatkah orang Melayu kalau sekolah aliran Cina dan India masih menerima sumbangan Kerajaan , sesuatu yang tiada bandingan dalam dunia ini”” Shamshul Anuar.

    Translated it reads:

    Are the Malays that evil as to be accused of the horrific crime of ethnic cleansing? Are the Malays that ‘bad’ as to allow Chinese and Tamil Schools to continue to receive government funding – something that has no comparison anywhere else in the world?

    This is the sort of strong emotional response that HINDRAF led by their leaders who have since been detained under the ISA, has drawn from among moderate Malays and followers of UMNO. Never the extremists among them. The appeal to emotions is so strong though simply worded, that we would do best not to ignore it. The Malays being a subservient race that has seen worse times not too long ago are not about to lose control! That appears to be the message.

    I blame the leaders of HINDRAF (as opposed to their followers) for seeking the racial route, not caring for the consequences to the families of demonstrators caught in the ‘game of chicken’ that they as leaders chose to play with this UMNO led government – a government which left on its own is more likely to implode rather than explode.

    Though the issue is racial, one wonders if they should have split ranks from the other races and hold a public rally of their own in the face of strong police warnings after two earlier rallies have torn open wounds which were still raw. Or did their leaders smell blood in the water? I don’t think Kit today a veteran politician that he is, would have gone ahead with the rally with or without police permit. The younger Kit in the late 60s probably would.

    HINDRAF in short has given the BN government the excuse they are looking for. I doubt if there would have been this many arrests from among BERSIH supporters had there been no HINDRAF.

    It was the HINDRAF leaders who appealed to international opinion through their cries of ethnic cleansing by a government who is obviously guilty of ignoring their demands for fair treatment and reasonable opportunities in the market place.

    It was the leaders of HINDRAF who let the genie out of the bottle.

  400. Lets say a contract or agreement has been made. Then many years down the road, there is a dispute. Although one goes back to the wording of the contract, the intention or meaning behind the wording is also important.

  401. The intent is even more important when situations change over time. In such a case some events or situations that may have been present at the time of signing the agreement may no longer apply, 50 years down the road. It is then that the intent plays and important role.

    Of course, if the clause is amended, then its a different matter!

  402. “Lets say a contract or agreement has been made. Then many years down the road, there is a dispute. Although one goes back to the wording of the contract, the intention or meaning behind the wording is also important.” lakshy

    Our Federal Constitution of 1957 is much like the contract you referred to. For there to be a contract there must be consensus ad item (to use the Latin term) or simply consensus. The consensus that you refer to would be the ‘underlying social contract’ that is so often mentioned these days.

    The draftsman when drafting the Constitution cannot be expected to foresee every situation and every outcome and so when a dispute arises as to the meaning of various provisions in our Constitution, the courts when interpreting would need to look to the intent of Parliament when it first passed the law. Judges cannot substitute the intent of Parliament with their own. When it is vague and gives rise to conflicting interpretations it would have to be amended by Parliament.

    There is however one crucial difference. The Constitution is a living document and it evolves with the passing of time through amendments.

    Article 8 may state today “All persons are equal before the law and entitled to the equal protection of the law….and except as expressly authorized by this Constitution, there shall be no discrimination….”

    Who knows what the Constitution will be like in 20 years’ time?

  403. Dear readers.

    I refer to some comments with regards to my view. That is my style. I believe I can get the message across without words such as ” Chee sin” or calling someone “Mahafiraun”. I was brought up in a culture that promotes “kind word is more powerful than four letter word”.

    Why I mentioned about the allegation “ethic cleansing” done by Hindraf. To show that any good intention to raise the grievance of any community does not have to sklander another community.

    Of what good is Hindraf is doing if what it succeeds is only waging war vs the Malays( by proudly telling the world that its enemy is UMNO). Whatever it did or its defence, it incites hatred vs Malays. Any govt would have to react in this matter.

    I never deny problems facing Indians, Chinese, Bidayuh, or Malays or Orang Asli. In fact, many Malays have cautioned PM that unbridled immigration of low skilled foreign labours create so much problems esp to the poor. The wage was madly supressed. A factory in Sec21 Shah alam gave a daily salary RM19 to Myanmarese after local refuse to work as the salary is ridiculously low.

    And many do not realize that subtle adverstisements promoting fairness as a epitome of beauty. Why on earth we are allowing such a blatant manipulation of pride and dignity in our midst when we really know that there are many beautiful black coloured people.

    Hindraf claimed to want to bring the attention to its cause. What it may not realize ( or realize) is that it paints Malays and UMNO as being very cruel. Do not you expect any response from the Malays.Even my mere words invites many scathing remarks. Imagine when you lied to the world and accuse Malays of sanctioning ethnic cleansing.

    And I am not even an UMNO member. I am just a Malaysian, not a Datuk or Tan Sri. Whatever mistakes by UMNO, at least from the bottom of the heart, all of us know it does deliver. Someone ridicule me when I reminds them of its magnaminity. They scorned at me. Just imagine if UMNO “advises” the Malays not to support Indian politicians. Then one day we will wake and realize that there will be no Indian in Parliament .

    Maybe then we will realize that we are missing. As for readers, I will only try( if I have time) to reply if their remarks have no insulting or four letter word. I mean no disrespect to all of the readers. But I believe it is an effort of futility to response should the other party refuses to maintain a minimun standard of decency.

  404. Many of of us just can’t handle free speech. All you need do is just scroll up to find who can and cannot and why. And that is not meant to insult anybody.

    BN MPs and others of similar vein are bad role models. One can understand because they make the profile of village idiots. But apart from the almost inherent inability to handle differences of opinion and to view it as just being that i.e. differences of opinion, some take it to mean that they are being personally attacked for their views or at least that they are being made to change their minds. That is not the case. Can’t we view differences of opinion as just being that? Some have a strong sense of right and wrong and find it difficult to contain their anger. Try anger management then. It’ll do you good because chances are if you’re married you are likely to be that abusive husband. If you’re a student then you don’t have what it makes to make a good student leader and are not likely to have leadership skills of the kind the country needs. You’re likely to be the bully in the class.

    You, Shamshul Anuar, do not have to apologize for being anything. Like you say – be yourself. Someone with an opinion on the issues. Stand your ground and feel proud that you’re able to articulate your views without insulting others for articulating theirs.

  405. I UNDERSTAND THAT THE ELECTROL REGISTRATION WILL BE CLOSED ON 22ND DECEMBER 2007.

    IF SO, HAVE YOU DONE YOUR DUTY !

    TO REGISTER YOURSELF AND ENCOURAGE , ANOTHER 50 TO REGISTER AS WELL.

    WE NEED TO TAKE POSITIVE ACTION, WITHOUT IT WE WILL FAIL AGAIN.

  406. Dear Lakshy.

    I refer to your statement that Hindraf did not attack the Malays. Unfortunately that was not what the Malays perceived. The Malays consider Hindraf as an affront to them, UMNo and Islam due to extreme Hindraf statement that ‘UMNO led govt sanctioned ethnic cleansing….”.

    Someone claimed that “hindraf let a genie out of a bottled”. The truth is that Hindraf is a manifastation that how deadly it can be if people play to racial sentiments, be they from any race. The detention under ISA is expected. In fact, many Malays( I gather from conversation in mosque, offices, wedding reception, dialogues with UMNO leaders) are visibly upset that PM took so much time before arresting them.

  407. DEar Dawsheng.

    I refer to your statement on me trying to justify Govt using ISA. And you did ask who are the silent majority. They are like you and me. Like many people who asked Cabinet Ministers point blank why on earth PM was slow in using ISA to deal with people who shout aboout democaracy and in the process tearing apart social fabric.

    Perhaps you are not aware the sentiments of some section of Malay community. They may not use internet to air the view but message is clear. In wedding reception, offices, mosques, they have been talking about how Hindraf lied to the world. Please do not assume that support on UMNO is waning simply because not many airing their views vie internet.

    As for the firmness of Govt to use ISA, make no mistake. I had seen how firmly with my very own eyes they act in stopping PAS abuse of mosques in Ampang.

  408. Enough said about HINDRAF!

    There is no doubt in my mind that the demonstrations have alienated the Malay voters who would have thrown their weight behind the Opposition just so that the UMNO led government becomes more accountable and responsive to public demands and so we could return to the rule of law that existed before the Mahathir era.

    That is now but a dream! Thanks to the HINDRAF 5.

  409. Dear Shamsul,

    I beg to differ and I disagree totally when you refer the ‘silent majority’ as people like you and me, clearly I am not.

    Perhaps you also not aware that there are large section of multi racial and multi religious Malaysian community who have been talking about the corrupt and abuse of power by the UMNO led government, that not just the Indians and the Chinese are victims of marginalization, your own kind did not escape the poor fate too, after 50 years of independent and yet among the poorest of your own kind you have the like of Klang emperor Zakaria, need I say more.

    You said “Please do not assume that support on UMNO is waning simply because not many airing their views vie internet.”

    I did not assume that, in fact you are all welcome to this blog (it is not my blog, I ‘tumpang’ only so…). My advice, please stop reading mainstream newspaper, that, if you want to be smart. Visit this blog regularly, engages the issues with rational and progressive thinking, with the intent of nation building and peace, prosperity and fairness for all, there’s always room for disagreement but please don’t bombard us with crap umnologies, we are too good for that and of course the world will laugh at you.

  410. “My advice, please stop reading mainstream newspaper, that, if you want to be smart. Visit this blog regularly..” dawsheng

    But you just tried running him off asking him to go rot some place only a few postings ago!

  411. Well, I am just following Uncle Kit’s advice, but that doesn’t mean I don’t mean what I said earlier. Like I said, if he come here only interested to tell one side of the story, what is the point when we all already know what he is going to say, it is all over the mainstream media. Not that I wish he and UMNO supporters will rot but the facts it is already rotten there, why bring the rot here? Just continue to rot there.

  412. Dear Dawsheng.

    Many thanks for your remarks. Again it depends on what you want to believe. Contrary to what you believe or wish to believe, the support of Malays to UMNO is strong.

    The reason is actually quite simplistic. Majority of Malays perceive that UMNO delivers despite warts and all. And I firmly believe that it does deliver. Of course weaknesses are there. Quite many of them . But the bottom line Malays( vast majority of them) believe it delivers.

    But the major reason why it continues to hold sway among Malay community is due to the fact it is the only party that Malays believe able to take care of their interest. Let us get this clear. Malays do not expect DAP, perceived as having anti- Malay attitude, to represent them.

    Why gamble on the uncertainty when the time tested political party is there. Despite whatever you wish to believe, at least UMNO is not perceived as “father and son co”. You know, this is what my friends see as the major characteristics of DAP. Whatever happened, eventually senior party leaders have to make way to the Crown Prince (nick name by Malay community) to lead DAP.

    As for mainstream newspapers, I do read just like you do. And contrary to what you feel, significant numbers still believe in it. If the general feeling towards UMNO is in tandem with what most of the responses here , UMNO is history long time ago.

    No. the world does not laugh at me. In fact, many are wondering how UMNO and its allies manage to defend the fort come election. What formula that UMNO devises that manages it to survive elections after election, they ask.

    I mean they know the usual rhetorics by losers who never fail to claim elections is not clean when they lost but kept quiet when they won. The answer is actually staring at us. Until today, no opposition party can match the formula of BN.

    And contrary to what you think, UMNO supporters are not losers or rotten. Many have their own businesses. And you maybe surprise that they achieve all this without handouts from Govt. I have seen this. Many of my friends are involved in agricultures and live comfortables lives. Many hold senior positions in universities, opening their own practices.

    Of course, these achievements pale in comparison to Chinese performances in businesses. But is is emerging.

    Of course, some of criticisms vs UMNO, BN are valid just like the criticism of nepotism in DAP is known and even admitted by many. I am not denying that.

  414. On 24 September 2007, President Ahmadinejad of Iran attended a public forum in Columbia University USA. There was a showdown. However, he was seen to be more civil than Lee Bollinger , President of Columbia University, who invited him as a guest but introduced him as “petty and cruel dictator.”

    “You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated,” Bollinger told Ahmadinejad about the leader’s Holocaust denial. “Will you cease this outrage?”

    Bollinger was rude and inadvertently could have made people feel sorry for Ahmadinejad.

    This treatment of a guest by a host was generally seen to be inappropriate all over the world.

    We now have our Shamshul Anuar, a self-confessed supporter of UMNO as a guest in this Opposition blog, and I observed that he too has been treated inappropriately by some posters here. We should instead engage Shamshul in civil discourse and not be seen all over the world as being less civil than him despite our differences.

    The precious right to freedom of speech should not be denied to those expressing ideas disagreeable to us.

    We have nothing to lose by learning more about Shamshul. As the saying goes, “Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.”

    I wish to address Shamshul directly on 3 issues, viz., Ethnic Cleansing, ISA and Nepotism in DAP.

    Dear Shamsul,

    1. Ethnic cleansing
    ===============
    The official United Nations definition of ethnic cleansing is “rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group”. However, ethnic cleansing rarely aims at complete ethnic homogeneity.

    Our Prime Minister got very worked up over Hindraf’s claim of ethnic cleansing because I remember clearly reading in mainstream newspaper that he associated ethnic cleansing with genocide with gory bloodbaths in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Even opposition leaders like Karpal Singh and Lim Guan Eng stated that Hindraf’s claim of ethnic cleansing was not true. Of course, you too have vehemently stated that Hindraf’s claim was not true and that they were playing with fire for using that unpardonable provocative word.

    Basing on the correct definition of ethnic cleansing above, and YouTube videos of numerous Hindu temple destructions wherein force and intimidation was undeniably used, which necessitated the removal of these Hindus (religious groups) from their places of worship, problems of burial of deceased Indians of controversial conversion to Islam, abject poverty, displacements due to urbanization, resulting in the highest suicide rates and most rampant gangsterism among the races, don’t you see justification for their claims of ethnic cleansing?

    Hitherto, why hasn’t anybody enlightened the Prime Minster about the actual definition of ethnic cleansing and that there was indeed justification for their claim of ethnic cleansing?

    Would you undertake to enlighten the Prime Minister on the above so as to set the Hindraf 5 free immediately?

    ISA
    ====
    You claimed that the Prime Minister listened to the silent majority represented by Damai Malaysia, representing 395 NGOs and that there were criticisms over delay in signing the detention ISA order.

    According to thestar online 13.12.2007, “Damai Malaysia representatives also included those from 75 Chinese-based and 20 Indian groups and associations”. There was no mention of the number of Malay-based NGOs. A source had estimated the figure to be not more than 30 Malay-based NGOs in Damai Malaysia.

    I have read online news stating that the number of 395 NGOs in Damai Malaysia was a hoax. Basing on scanty information as shown above, the figures simply do not add up. Assuming that the above figures are correct, there could only be 125 NGOs, the rest being phantom NGOs. Damai Malaysia failed to meet the challenged to publish the names of all those 395 NGOs. Damai Malaysia has lost its credibility.

    Contrary to the claim of delay in the execution of the ISA on the Hindraf 5, there was actually unholy haste resulting in the Prime Minister unforgivably overlooking the need for police detention of suspects for up to 60 days under Section 73 before he as the Minister of Internal Security and Public Order could sign the ISA detention order under Section 8.

    There is not a shred of evidence that national security has been threatened, despite Hindraf’s warning that Indian Malaysians might be forced to resort to violence in order to restore their constitutional rights.

    Please justify the above misinformation and ISA’s violation of human rights.

    Would you undertake to enlighten the Prime minister over his glaring and grave mistakes in invoking the ISA, so as to set Hindraf 5 free immediately?

    Nepotism in DAP
    =============
    If the children of political leaders of a party are dumb and yet occupy high positions, we may conclude that there could be nepotism. But if the children are really capable and rise to the top on their own merits, it would be grossly unfair to attribute their rise to nepotism rather than genetic reasons. Furthermore, they conduct elections within their own parties.

    Dr. Mahathir himself wrote about the success of a race or a nation being dependent on the quality of the gene pools in his book, The Malay Dilemma.

    So, there are scientific reasons for what you claimed to be “nepotism” in DAP, persumably appertaining to Lim Guan Eng and for that matter Lee Hsien Loong in PAP Singapore, George W. Bush in the GOP America.

    Why do you jump to conclusion about nepotism in DAP without looking at possible scientific explanation?

    And now that you know the truth, would you enlightened your friends in UMNO about the above 3 issues?

  415. Earnie aka Duftnee,

    You are a real retard as someone said. Wherever you go, you pollute the threads with your retarded thoughts! Why don’t you just quit making comments and only read instead. You might be able to learn something.

  416. “There is not a shred of evidence that national security has been threatened…” earnie aka duftnee

    How would you know since they have not revealed what they know?? Isn’t that the reason they use the ISA. Because they do not need to reveal what they know??

    Daft!

  417. “We have nothing to lose by learning more about Shamshul. As the saying goes, “Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.”

    i cannot imagine keeping najib close to me! i’m not gay. oso he might strangle me, stab me, put his dirty fingers on me etc! gives me the creeps!

    worse if i keep daftnee aka earnie close. no thank you!

  419. Dear Ernest.

    Many thanks for the remarks. I accept difference of opinions just like you. It is refreshing to hear that people practise what they preach sometimes.

    By the way, I am not an UMNO member . I support UMNO but at the same time I am critical to it. It make a lot of mistakes. But at the same time it also delivers. It is a dominant political party in this country. If it really wanted to, it can simply ensure that UMNO alone can form the Federal Govt . As for Sarawak, it is a matter of choice not to join state politics although the support is big for entry of UMNO into the state.

    Why PM, UMNO, Malays are so upset with the allegation of “ethnic cleansing?”, one may ask. Because it was a “fitnah”. That is how Malays look into such allegation. Malays are upset that HINDRAF lied to the whole world , depicting Malays, UMNO and Malaysia in a very negative manner.

    It is easy to ask Malays, UMNO, PM to be lenient over this matter. But if the charge hits you, what would you do. How would you feel? Even my defending of UMNO( just defending, not accusing DAP anything) resulted in me being called UMNO cybertrooper. I can not imagine if UMNO accuses DAP as playing to racial gallery( actually that is the general view of Malay) .

    Even my Indians friends do not agree with the term “ethnic cleansing”. Call a spade a spade. Please do not create another meaning for etnic cleansing to justify the lies by HINDRAF.

    THe simple fact is that HINDRAF played with racial issue. It incites the Indians to go against UMNO, the Malays. It is waging war against the Malays. That is exactly what it said and did. It is naive of HINDRAF leaders not to realize that by waging war against UMNO, actually it is waging war vs the Malays.

    Nobody is denying any human rights of HINDRAF leaders. Rights however come with responsibility. Right to speak does not include right to lie, “fitnah”. Hindraf dangerous and fatal actions therefore must be stopped. This is where ISA comes in handy.

    In fact, Malays are so upset that PM took so much time before arresting them. Perhaps you are not aware how uncomfortable some UMNO cabinet Ministers facing Malays when they were told point blank how upset Malays are for the slow response by PM.

    “there is no shred of evidence that national security is threatened”. I am not so sure about that. If Hindraf was not contained, imagine if the other party react. Now imagine if 100,000 UMNO members demonstrated in Kuala Lumpur. The situation can turn ugly.

    Whatever grouses by Indians, Hindraf, must it make Malays as its enemy? Of what good is the action?. As for ISA, I believe majority wants it. If not choose the govt that does not believe in it. It is as simple as that.

    As for nepotism in DAP, well everybody knows it. Even my DAP friends admit to it. How suddenly more senior party leaders “were made to make way” for Lim Eng Guan. Let us not pretend that it is not true. And I do not jump into conclusion. That was what DAP members said. Of course, they reminded me not to mention their names.

    As for your request to inform PM to release the 5 detained leaders, I am afraid I am not able to do so. In fact, I believe they deserve detention. Those who play with fire must be willing to pay the price. Do understand that in Malay culture and Islamic tradition “fitnah itu lebih dahsyat daripada membunuh”.

    I however do not deny the problems facing Indian community . Like other communities, Indians also face poverty. However there is no need to blame UMNO, Malays for the poverty. Surely nobody can deny Govt role in poverty eradication. However, there are much more need to be done.

    As for temple demolition, local, state and federal govt paid the price for being overly lenient when it comes to illegally built religious structures. However, perhaps you are not aware that the said demolition of temple that HINDRAF so indifferently use to incite the feeling vs Islam, UMNO, Malays was built( ILEGALLY) on a private land. THe developer even offered to build a new temple. And it was demolished after Deepavali, not before the festival.

  420. DEar Ernest.

    I appreciate your kind remark about the need to be civil towards those who have different views . Although I may not agree with your some of view, I respect your opinion. I agree that it is imperative to know what the rakyat feels about many issues.

    And I also believe that some court jesters in Parliament should not be elected. They include those who violates local laws until A sultan need to advise him or unnecessary offending women biological clock.

  421. Dear shamshul anuar,

    … would you enlightened your friends in UMNO about the above 3 issues?

    should read

    … would you enlighten your friends in UMNO about the above 3 issues?

    Sorry for the above grammatical mistake.

    I appreciate your composure despite the pervasive atmosphere of hostility around you, in continuing to air your views unperturbed and with clarity of thoughts.

    There is a bunch of unruly kids with a propensity for provocation, who should emulate your style. You have more class than they have. They will grow up into don’t-know-what.

  422. Shamshul,

    Dark Horse I think has brought to the attention of posters on the use of your ‘quote’ in Bahasa which was later translated by him for the convenience of readers of this blog. The author Loh Meng Kow used it without so much as a reference to where it came from or acknowledgment to its author. That is a show of disrespect.

    I think you should visit the thread to read – and perhaps respond in a manner appropriate.

  423. Dear Ernest and Undergrad2,

    Again, many thanks for the remarks. And i salute those who take time to correct the grammer as it reflects positive values .

    Rest assured, Ernest, UMNO and Malay leaders are aware about the sentiments on the ground. They are aware that any good idea will only remain an idea without effective implementation.

    Malay leaders never deny the problems facing Indian community. Perhaps you are not aware that several UMNO leaders at division levels mentioned about the effect on poor with regards to overly lenient immigration policies. Wages are artificially supressed down to a ridiculous level.

    Perhaps you are not aware that even in UMNO, there is a concern about almost nonexistent of Indians in govt sectors in some areas. Actually the concern is of practicality in nature. It makes no sense for a dept to be affected by staff taking leaves during Hari Raya . Availability of Indians or Chinese staff will reduce the effect.

    Actually the policy is not to stop non Malay into govt sector. However, due to low wage( until recently) , it does not attract many candidates from these communities. I hope with recent attractive renumeration, candidates from non Malay communities will start applying again.

    As for ISA, Ernest , UMNO already knows your type of sentiments long time ago. But do remember that what you feel and what humble pakcik and makcik in kampung feel are 2 different things. They are not really against ISA. You maybe surprise to know the generally they feel all the PM s that Malaysia have( from the days of Tunku) are humble, benevolent and merciful. You will not see this kind of opinion in this blog but if you care to have a cup of coffee in Pendang, Taiping, or Temerloh, this is their response.

    To them ISA is wild card that leader uses in order to ensure orderliness and security. As long it is used sparingly, it is OK , at least that is what they feel. Ernest, you maybe do not realize that actually Malays are upset that PM took time to use ISA vs Hindraf leaders.

    Perhaps this sentence is a reflection of general mood of Malay community( as said by an UMNO friend) ” Kalau aku yang jadi PM, dah lama aku sumbat Hindraf leaders dalam ISA”.

    Anyway, many thanks for your request. Actually quite a number of malay leaders read this forum.

    My defence of UMNO must not be taken as 100% approval of its performance. I strongly believe that it also( like all political parties) must buck up. UMNO ministers must go to the ground and see for themselves the real situation. And I pray that those who have no respect of local regulation to be booted out in the next election. No point in electing these clowns .

  424. Dear Shamshul Anuar,

    Besides the above 3 issues, viz.,

    1. Ethnic Cleansing
    2. ISA
    3. Nepotism in DAP

    there is a fourth issue on illegal assemblies without police permit which had been debated extensively in this blog before, and being renewed under this thread:

    PM/IGP – heed Nazrin/Musa, respect Constitution and allow peaceful demonstrations

    I have said that it was wrong to deny police permits arbitrarily to prevent peaceful assemblies organized for the purpose of expressing legitimate grievances.

    Please let us have your opinion on this 4th issue. If you are agreeable with me, please tell your UMNO friends that it is imperative to restore citizens’ constitutional right to peaceful assemblies, to pre-empt potentially violent eruptions of pent-up frustrations.

  425. Dear Ernest.

    To understand why IGP did not allow Hindraf assembly and procession to submit memorandum to British High Commission , one must take into consideration on sorrounding circumstances. When i say circumstances I mean the nature of the protest, the political temperature, etc.

    Here is a scenario: IGP allowed the assembly. As it is allowed, more people will gather . Imagine for example 100,000 assembled in a highly charged atmosphere. The nature of the protest tends to pit Indians vs Malays. It just takes one mistake ( such as one man to throw a stone) to start a riot.

    Therefore, IGP, in his capacity as head of police dept, may err to the side of caution. It is better than taking a risk that could have resulted in a bloodbath. Now tell me do you mind having to brace a demonstration say from UMNO members. Just imagine a quarter million people on the street of Kuala Lumpur , voicing anger over Hindraf allegation.

    In no way such rejection of permit can be interpreted as violating human right. If human right can result in racial clash, then I do not subscribe to it. Do understand that even before Hindraf assembly, another demonstration ( Bersih) took place, already gave an impression of an authority losing control. Allowing another demonstration that condemned the authority( and of courese Islam, UMNO and Malays) will only invite reaction from Malays. Now imagine if Malays also took to the street , such as having 200,000 people , all angry at Hindraf. Sure recipe for disaster.

    You did say “peaceful assembly”. Was Hindraf demonstration a peaceful expression of feeling? I am not so sure of it. Emotion is a powerful tool. It can be a real disaster if it is manipulated. Remember May 13. There is nothing wrong by erring on the side of caution.

    Dr Nazrin’s statement while encouraging civilized expression of expression in no way promoting unbridled expression of human right. At the same breath, the gracious prince, also a learned scholar, also cautioned Malaysians to use a proper channel to air any grievances . Surely you will agree that since independence , all the Prime Ministers that Malaysia have are decent people. Certainly they are not dictators of same league with Marcos, Milosevich, Emperor Bokassa or Idi Amin of Uganda.

    DO not worry about condemnation from some countries. I had seen before my own eyes how their polices treated protesters. Of course, they are busy preaching to us. To some section of Western Press, only by having demomstration than a democracy is recognised. Never mind if a country is ruined. To them freedom of ecpression is equivalent to disagreeing to whatever the authority says.

    “Eruptions of pent up frustrations” …. so you said. There is better way. Ballot box.

  426. Dear Shamshul anuar,

    You said “To understand why IGP did not allow Hindraf assembly and procession to submit memorandum to British High Commission….”

    Based on what I understand, the IGP did not prevent Hindraf leader from submiting the memorandum to British High Commission”. A Hindraf leader when asked why he did not submit the memorandum, replied that it was a trap. The police already had a court order against assembly in the vicinity of the British High Commission. If he proceeded to submit the memo, he could be charged for contempt of court.

    The Court order was against assembly near the British High Commission. But, why did the police act so harshly against innocent Indians gathering at Batu Cave for prayers? Why was it necessary to lock the gates, huddle them inside the temples like animals, and fire tear gas canisters and using water cannons against them? How could they disperse being locked inside, drenched and tear-gassed?

    Hindraf demonstrators were not armed and were not violent on 25 Nov 2007. The police initiated the commotion by firing first. Had they allowed them to proceed to march peacefully to the British High Commission, — and they pleaded for just one hour — ugly images of police brutality would not have flashed across world TVs. The Indian and US Government would not have expressed their concerns.

    Please do not use May13 to scare people. A Royal Commission of Enquiry on this tragedy would probably confirm that it was not caused by racial tension, but a coup to topple Tunku’s aristocracy to replace it with Malay capitalism, basing on recently declassified documents from London. That is basing on what I have read.

    Mass rallies of Malay Anti demonstrators for what? For muzzling aggrieved people from expressing their cries of desperations?

    Peaceful demonstrations in a true democracy would not ruin a country. They happen very often in countries practizing true democracy, whereby the police help to maintain the peace, leading the demonstrators to their destinations, and preventing anti-demonstrators from causing unnecessary troubles.

    Deeply frustrated people are like pressure cookers. Allowing aggrieved people to hold peaceful assemblies to release raw tonnage from their chests is like agreeing to have regulators and safety valves on pressure cookers.

    Clauses on restriction in the Federal Constitutional Article 10 guaranteeing our rights to freedom of peaceful assembly, should not be interpreted as giving a blank cheque to the police to deny or permit citizens from exercising their rights. The police’s job should be to regulate peaceful assemblies, like the regulator in a pressure cooker, not to prevent peaceful assemblies, which is analogous to blocking the regulator and safety valve of the pressure cooker, with undesirable consequences. History is full of such lessons.

    Ballot box is not the only solution in a true democracy. It is rather insensitive to say that it is the only option for change for the better. The Powers-that-be must have broad enough shoulders to accept the fact that despite their efforts at improving the lot of the people, there are serious perceptions that they could have done much much better.

    Usually, peaceful demonstrations are last resorts to demand that the powers-that-be respond conscientiously to address the grievances of the people, which could be immediate like sudden increase in cost of living due to spiraling fuel, flour, bread, vegetable, etc., prices; or something which have been neglected or taken lightly for too long, like unfair elections system, rotten judiciary, marginalization, deprivation of right to education, job opportunities, etc.

    I have personal experience of what happened when the regulator and safety valve of a pressure cooker malfunctioned. It made a hole on the ceiling.

    You will know that this is also true in human events if you read history.

  427. Even my Indians friends do not agree with the term “ethnic cleansing”. Call a spade a spade. Please do not create another meaning for etnic (sic) cleansing to justify the lies by HINDRAF. — Shamsul anuar.

    I had referred to the official UN definition of ethnic cleansing as a basis for common ground discussion as follows:

    Ethnic cleansing
    ===============
    The official United Nations definition of ethnic cleansing is “rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group”. However, ethnic cleansing rarely aims at complete ethnic homogeneity.

    If you do not agree with the above definition, please apprise us of your definition.

  428. Dear Ernest.

    The refusal of police to issue permit on Hindraf gathering does make sense. To prevent untoward incidents that tend to take place in a highly charged situation. That is the view of IGP and I agree with him.

    Whatever HIndraf said, it lied to the world. It purposely did not tell the Indians on the facts with regards to a demolition of a temple. Why it lied. If truth is told, there is no reason for anger.

    The truth is that that Hindraf is playing with racial fire. It is as simple as that. It incites the feeling of Indians to go againsts UMNO, Malays, Islam. It accused UMNO of sanctioning killing of Indians.

    At the very same breath, it says that it is not against Malays. I am afraid what told and what Hindraf did are 2 different things. PM will be lauded by people like you and Western press if he chose to be lenient( meaning no guts to act).

    Whatever grouses Indians have( or any race have), it must air them in the right manner. Meaning no need to wage war of hatred vs another race to get attention. Surely you will understand this.

    You seem to talk only about right of Indians. what about Malays who are offended as their religion( Islam) is ridiculed and a Malay based political party condemned( dan difitnah) by a series of lies by Hindraf. Do not they also have rights.

    And what is it has to do with Queen Elizabeth 11? Is it wrong for Malays to question Hindraf allegiance when Hindraf itself seems to submit to Queen Elizabeth for justice.

    Please do not compare successive PMs with that of other dictators around the world. Surely they are not in the same league with that of Marcos, Suharto, Idi Amin. Did any of the Prime Ministers from the days of Tunku ever forbid non Malays any exercises in commerce. Has any Prime Minsters of Malaysia ever tried to deny the rights to worship according to their beliefs. Has any Chinese or Indians or Bidayuh or or Iban or Portuege Malaysians ever denied the right to speak in their mother tongue.

    Are you not aware that there are Indians as Ketua Polis Daerah. Are you not aware there are Chinese as Brigadier General or Cabinet Minister or Member of Parliaments. Are you not aware that UMNO never attempt to sabotage Chinese in trade. Chinese and Malaysians are free to get involve in trade. I am sure you are aware that Education Minister also appointed several Chinese as Deputy Vice Chancellor.

    And Malays, despite being accused of overused term “Ketuanan Melayu” still is willing to appoint a Chinese as CEO in a local bank of which Malays are the largest shareholders. I am afraid I am dreaming if I think a Malay can be appointed in a local bank owned by Chinese.

    As for May 13, of course you only listened to what you wish to listened. Perhaps you are not aware how a supposed peaceful DAP procession “deviated” from permitted route and ended up in Kampung Baru, KL with hugh replica of brooms supposed to chase Malays away. The result of course is a disaster.

    I have living witnesses to this sad episode. See. Innocent people were killed when emotions are not controlled.

    As for definition of etnic cleansing, you had already stated it. Nowhere in Malaysia does the Govt exercise etnic cleansing .

  429. I am as perplexed as you over the Hindraf’s attempt to get Queen Elizabeth II involved with their problems. It was probably a publicity stunt designed to draw attention to their plights.

    The manner they resorted to in order to gain attention is unconventional, yet very effective. It should not however negate legitimate grievances, which they attempted to express as a cry of desperation on 25 Nov.2007.

    As for May 13, I think there must be a mistake in the interpretation of “the huge replica of brooms supposedly to chase Malays away”. To what avail? It could also be interpreted as a new beginning, cleaning up the mess of the past, sweeping away misfortunes, poverty, etc.

    Unless there is an RCI into this tragedy, there will be disputes over truths and untruths until the cows come home.

  430. Dear Ernest.

    Yes. It is a publicity stunt to get international attention. I mean everybody knows how tough or illogical for Hindraf to petition Queen Elizabeth 11 to appoint a Queen Counsel who is expected to sue British Govt( of which she is the sovereign monarch) and if won, would jeopardise her very throne.

    But more importantly, why Hindraf lied? Why must it be dishonest about what it stands for? Why must wage war against another community( Malay) in order to demand justice?. Why destroy goodwill be alleging “etnic cleansing” that even non Malays find it nauseating.

    Yes. You are right by asking to what avail on broom to chase Malays away”. But that was exactly what happened on May 13. That was happened when emotion is manipulated. And that was what exactly Hindraf was trying to do. Incite hatred. And the result could be a disaster.

    What PM did was only to avoid the racial clash . There is no point in taking actions after thousand death. Remember . Prevention is better than cure.

  431. Has any Chinese or Indians or Bidayuh or or Iban or Portuege Malaysians ever [been] denied the right to speak in their mother tongue.–Shamsul Dec 26,2007

    Allowing various ethnic groups to speak their own languages, which are their birthrights is a non-issue. There is no credit to be claimed for allowing something which is only natural to be allowed, like allowing cows to moo, dogs to yelp, and cats to caterwaul

    What matters to the Chinese is their right to pursue tertiary education in their own mother tongue. As China is emerging as an economic powerhouse, the Chinese language may play greater role in international trade and commerce.
    But, the Chinese community had been denied their constitutional right to establish its own Chinese University in the 80s, despite going to court with a Queen’s Counsel to appeal to the Government. About 20 years later, on Dec 14, 2007, New Era College filed an application to upgrade its status to University. Two other Chinese colleges had already done the same. We have not heard about the results yet. But, during those years since the 80s, all kinds of Universities, including Islamic University have been allowed to be set up. Is there any discrimination here?

    ——————————————–

    PM will be lauded by people like you and Western press if he chose to be lenient( meaning no guts to act). — shamsul Dec 26,2007

    The above statement totally went off at a tangent.
    Nobody expected the PM to be lenient, but to be reasonable and to have broad shoulders. People expected the PM not to overreact by turning a peaceful Hindraf demonstration aimed at expressing grave grievances into attempted murder of a cop by provoking them, huddling them into temples, locking them up, firing tear gas at them, and shooting strong jets of chemically laced water at them.

    YouTube videos permanently captured FRU fring tear gas canisters at the demonstrators, beating up and dragging off Indian youths. If a cop got hit on the head by probably a tear gas canister thrown back at him was attempted murder, then there were many attempted murders committed that day by the FRUs.

    People expected the PM to allow Hindraf demonstrators to submit their petition to the British High Commission, whose spokeswoman was ready to receive it. PM should have ensured that the FRUs and police were at the scene not to attack them but to protect them against trouble makers, so that they could exercise their constitutional right of peaceful assembly to express pent-up feelings.

    If you do not get overly emotional, you may see justification for the perception of ethnic cleansing basing on the United Nation’s actual definition of the phrase, and what really happened to the aggrieved Hindus. Ethnic cleansing does not necessarily involve bloodbaths, massacres or genocides like what happened in Bosnia. It is not a systematic program at eradication of a race of people. See definition below again.

    Ethnic cleansing — The official United Nations definition of ethnic cleansing is “rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group”. However, ethnic cleansing rarely aims at complete ethnic homogeneity.

    Ethnic cleansing can be localized… rendering an area… remove from a given area… ethnic or religious group… rarely aims at complete ethnic homogeneity.

    Displacements without compensations due to conversion of estates to townships, lack of education and training leading to gangsterism, destructions of temples without compensations, deaths under police custody, abject poverty etc. leading to the highest suicide rates among the races all gave rise to this perception of localized and sporadic ethnic cleansing.

    Of course ethnic cleansing does not mean that the government is aiming at complete ethnic homogeneity by killing Indians systematically, directly or indirectly, otherwise there will be no such things as Little Indias in Klang and Brickfields, and other places where Indians are congregated as in certain parts of the cities and plantation estates.

    Occurrence of ethnic cleansing is localized and sporadic, hence the perception.

  432. …PM… ( meaning no guts to act). — shamsul Dec 26,2007

    The PM needs more guts to do what is right and against the wishes of hardliners within his party rather than following the path of least resistance, which denied peace-loving people from legitimately exercising their constitutional rights, that of peaceful assemblies.

  433. Dear Ernest.

    Manay thanks for your reply. But I beg to differ. Look around and you will find that in some countries , you do not have the privelleges to “retain” the language of the mother tongue. In other countries, you will not find vernacular schools supported by Govt ( which is dominated by the native). In other countries, becoming a minority means you have to change your names, your loyalty questioned.

    As for Merdeka Universiti, it was denied as the language proposed to be used is Mandarin, hence denying the chances of non Chinese the places in such university.

    And I strongly believe such a university will not help national integration. As for your remark with regards to actions of the Prime Minister when facing these rowdy demonstrators, I am afraid it is misplaced. In the first place, the Hindraf played on racial feeling, a very dangerous act. If left unchecked, it can result in the accused race, The Malays react.

    Now imagine 250000 Malays gathering in the heart of Kuala Lumpur , voicing anger of being accused as implementing etnic cleansing. Just imagine. Imagine if 250000 upset people paraded in town and proceed to your neighbourhood. Imagine.

    The truth is that many in Hindrtaf gathering are rude, rowdy. You can see yourself how they threw stones and whatever objects they could find. What do you expect police to do. Sit quiet.

    I have no respect to thises hooligans. And police is right. A message must be sent. Being overly lenient to these hooligans is a maifastation of weaknesess.

    And do remember Hindraf lied. Even non Malays believe that the accusation ( that A Malay dominated Govt sanctioned the killing of Indians as alleged by Hindraf). Call a spade a spade.

  435. Dear Shamsul,

    Thanks for your views.

    Our Federal Constitution promises us democracy, justice and right to pursue mother-tongue languages, but they are actually virtual realities.

    We should not follow backward countries which deny their citizens their basic rights. Instead we should emulate more advanced civilizations, which keep their promises to protect their citizens’ basic rights.

    There would be all kinds of dire consequences, like you said national disunity and exclusion of non-Chinese if Merdeka University was granted. The sky would fall!

    Every injustice and unprincipled act was justified as being necessary because of the prevailing situation then.

    The Romans had an expression “Fiat justitia, ruat coelum,” “Let justice be done, let the sky fall”, meaning “Do what is right, regardless of the imagined consequences.” In fact this was what the Queen’s Counsel engaged by the Chinese educationists said in a KL High Court in the 80s.

    I believe that Merdeka University was not meant to be exclusively for the Chinese, like nobody questions the exclusion of non-Muslims from Islamic University. I believe any Chinese University, Chinese Secondary or Primary school is open to all races. These are business entities.

    As for Hindraf demonstrations, the FRUs and the police could have maintained the peace and allowed them just one hour they requested to submit their memorandum to the British High Commission, which was ready to receive it, and there would be no incidents. The demonstrators were not provocative. They were provoked by the police and FRUs instead. There were no signs of anti-demonstrators, since there was no reason for their presence then. Why should there be a confrontation? The fear of racial clashes was unwarranted.

    Remember the Roman’s expression “Let justice be done, let the sky fall.”

  437. And do remember Hindraf lied. Even non Malays believe that the accusation ( that A Malay dominated Govt sanctioned the killing of Indians as alleged by Hindraf). Call a spade a spade. – Shamsul

    In the first place you should learn what a spade is. The fact that the Govt. turned a blind eye to the deaths of indians in police custody makes one inclined to the hindraf view.

  438. I think Shamshul Anuar is young and gullible and believes what he reads. But at least he is honest – though honestly wrong. He has the courage to write on a political blog while clearly subscribing to views typical of those who support UMNO. He says he is not an UMNO member. Let’s give that to him.

    I think posters should not be too eager to knock him to size so to speak. Commentators like Shamshul allows us a useful insight into the Malay psyche today. We are interested in winning him over through rational arguments rather than give in to our basic emotional instincts to bash him for his beliefs.

  439. If there are 331 postings on the thread on the invocation of the nefarious Internal Security Act against the Hindraf Five, this will be a new record this blog can feel proud.

    As it is, there is nothing to be proud at all, but to be very ashamed and distressed at the scores of postings which hijack the thread which trivialise the ISA detentions and the serious issues discussed.

    There is only one person who is gleefully following the descent of this blog – the Information Minister, Zainuddin Maidin who will be able to tell the world that Malaysians are just “goblok” and do not have the maturity to handle freedom of expression, whether cyberspace or terrestrial.

    I believe I am not the only one distressed by the blog’s descent and I call on all posters to end this “war” and get back to the issues raised by the threads and to contribute to raise the quality of the discussion rather than the reverse.

    Kit

  440. Hi

    I think Shamshul Anuar is uneducated or uncivilized, he my be racialist like some of the empty vessel in the UMNO.

    My dear friend, Hindraf requested permits but not approved. They did a peacefully gathering but your Police is the want attack the Indians brutally by using tear Gas / Chemical gas and so on. You know something it was peacefully gathering, if not there will be different scenario. Did you watch the video and photo, which can tell you the truth? The incident happen in Batu Cave, it was set up by political gangsters.

    Your UMNO cannot face the truth, thats why 5 leaders were arrested in the ISA. If your UMNO happens to be civilized they should call for a meeting with leaders. You know Shamshul, one of the leaders has submitted 100 over letters to Badawi but even one letter was not replied.
    DAP / PKR and Pas, well educated they can reason the rights and wrong. Hindraf is requesting their rights. Indians and Chinese born here why they was not issued bumiputra status. But your friend khairy born in Kuwait but Bumiputra status similar to many Indonesian also have the bumi status.

    Why your corruption leaders was not arrested or brought to justice. If you still support BN then one day our Government will bankrupt. Time to change Government Shamsul

  441. Earnie aka Daftnee,

    You need to do better than replying to an old post (about a week old which nobody now reads) and then hoping to divert attention to your ‘learned contribution to discourse on this blog’ with lurid references to “the woman’s vulva and the regrowth of the clitoris”! Haven’t you had enough of the dirty talk??

    You tried to do that earlier using another old thread. I’m beginning to believe what Jong the lady commentator said when she referred to you as DOM or short for ‘dirty old man’.

  443. Nothing written was dirty, but your mind is. Because of that, your opinions are mental aberrations, not to be heeded.

    Do you notice that I seldom respond to your unwarranted provocations? This is because your perceived character is commensurate with my response to your comments — infinitesimal.

  444. Dear KSR.

    I refer to your remarks with regards to my responses on Hindraf. Rest assured neither me nor UMNO is racist. Yes. There are racist among mankind, Hindraf among other.

    Hindraf leaders played to the gallery. It purposely incited the Indians vs UMNO, Malays, Islam. It was less than honest by not revealing the whole truth about a demolition of a temple in Selangor.

    And the saga simply showed one thing to Malays. How some people go to great length to give some justification to whatever Hindraf said. And I hope PM learnt his lesson here. Nobody respects a leader who took his sweet time to arrest these 5 leaders. Several very senior UMNO members( the rank of Deputy and Vice Presidents) were asked point blank by UMNO and members why PM took time to arrest these 5 people.

    The permit was not approved as it was racial in nature. And Govt already realized about how Hindraf had been inciting Indians from many of its ceramah since July last year.

    As for dissatisfaction, not only Indians are not satisfied. Malays are also not happy with several incidents showing some rude people mocking their faiths, not to mention putting squarely the blame on May 13th 1969 clash on Malays.

    As for your remarks on bumi/non bumi status, rest assured that A chinese also can become CEO in a bank with Malay being the largest shareholders. I am afraid Malays are dreaming thinking vice versa is possible. I am afraid Malays are also dreaming thinking they can win in A Chinese majority area in any election.

    For those who are so eager to allow so called “freedom of expression” , just imagine if thety are at the receiving end. You know , the feeling like having hot blooded 200000 Malays protesting against insult by Hindraf. Just imagine the disaster that can happen should a wrong thing happens there. Whatever the cause , the result is still the same. A disaster in the making.

  445. Shamsul,

    Thank you for your response.

    “Fiat justitia, ruat coelum.”
    The rest will take care of themselves.

    We need to have faith in the capability of our law enforcement personnel to keep 200000 people of any ethnic group from causing mayhem to peaceful assemblies for expression of genuine grievances.

    Otherwise, what use is a country’s law and order set-up if it cannot even prevent unruly hot-blooded people from taking the laws into their own hands in suppressing an aggrieved group from exercising their basic constitutional right?

  446. Dear Ernest.

    Many thanks for your view. Nobody is denying any Malaysian from exercising constitutional right. But why must wage war against another community in order to highlight whatever grievances.

    Yes. We must have faith in our enforcement personnel. Actually I am surprise that you ( jugding from your previous remarks) that you have faith in our police. So lease extend your faith to manifast respect to police in not allowing this demonstration, hiding behind so called” freedom of speech” but in reality is hatred.

  447. Dear Shamsul,

    You appear to question the consistency of my faith in the police.

    In the first instance, yes, you are right that I did deplore the manner the police manhandled Indian Malaysians gathering in Batu Cave.

    In the second instance, I did say that we need to have faith in the police in maintaining the peace should 200,000 demonstrators threaten to disrupt peaceful assemblies.

    The police as you know are only following instructions from their bosses. In the first instance, if they were instructed not to abuse their power, they could have restrained themselves. In the second instance, if they are instructed to prevent anti-demonstrators from disrupting peaceful demonstrators, i believe being heavily armed and protected, they can do it. That is why I had said that we need to have faith that they can maintain the peace, without suppressing public expressions of pent-up feelings through peaceful assemblies.

    Shamsul, I do not believe there was any attempt by Indian demonstrators at waging war against the Malays, and that they were motivated by hatred, and demonstrated under the guise of freedom of speech. All these could have been imagined, and dire consequences of peaceful assemblies could also be imagined. However, admittedly, there were anger and frustrations at being marginalized. Let peaceful demonstrations be safety valves for the release of potentially explosive tensions.

    That is the reason why I had suggested you consider what the Romans said “Fiat justitia, ruat coelum.” meaning “Do what is right, regardless of the imagined consequences.” Denial of this maxim may lead to a police state or a dictatorship.

  448. Dear Ernest.

    I beg to differ. Malays began to take note of the strings of hatred speeches by Hindraf since last July. Yes. The majority of Indians are not waging war against Malays. But Hindraf does wage war against the Malays.

    Hindraf lied to the Indians with regards to demolition of a temple in Selangor. Itwas not honest about the issue. It puprposely told Indians that the temple was demolished before Deepavali. The fact is that the temple was demolished after Depavali, following request by temple management.

    Why it lied. To incite the Indians against the Govt( meaning the Malay dominated govt). Hindraf clearly said that its enemy is UMNO. Unless you are oblivious to reality, you may not realize that the statement is perceived by Malays as a threat to them.

    What was wrong by banning such a demonstration if the intention had already been known to the Govt and Malays. And the accusation is an insult to Malays, Islam and UMNO. Malays were accused of a very cruel act: etnic cleansing.

    As the intention is already bad, what is the guarantee that the demonstration would be peaceful. Any authority would be forced to act.

    Yes. Do what isright. That is what exactly the police did.

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