Posted on by Kit

Bersih Gathering/Petition to Agong – PM should show the world that Malaysia is a democratic country

The Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi should show the world that Malaysia is a democratic country by allowing the peaceful gathering organized by Bersih (Coalition for Free and Fair Elections) at the Dataran Merdeka in Kuala Lumpur tomorrow to submit a memorandum to the Yang di Pertuan Agong on electoral reforms.

Malaysia will become the laughing-stock in the international arena if Malaysians are not even allowed the fundamental and constitutional right provided in the Malaysian Constitution for 50 years to gather peacefully to submit a petition to the Royal Palace, not to advocate any violence or even for an overthrow of the government, but for electoral reforms to ensure that the next general election is clean, free and fair and the election results are not marred by electoral abuses, fraud and other malpractices.

Bersih officials have appealed to the Kuala Lumpur City Chief Police Officer, Datuk Zul Hasnan Najib against the rejection by the Dang Wangi district police chief ACP Mohd Zulkarnain Abdul Rahman for a permit the gathering at Dataran Merdeka.

The Police should be mindful of the important declaration in the Rukunegara that Malaysia is dedicated “to maintaining a democratic way of life”, and as such, it is one of the national objectives which the Police should be duly committed to protect and promote — by allowing the peaceful gathering to submit a petition to the Yang di Pertuan Agong on electoral reforms.

There is no basis whatsoever for the Inspector-General of Police, Tan Sri Musa Hassan to be “doubtful of the intentions” of Bersih or the peaceful character of the gathering as its sole purpose is to submit a petition to the Yang di Pertuan Agong.

I for one can vouch for the bona fide of the peaceful gathering tomorrow and that there is no intention whatsoever by anyone to create any untoward incident.

I call on the Police to work with patriotic Malaysians who are concerned about fulfilling the Rukunegara objective to maintain a meaningful democratic way of life by allowing the peaceful submission of a petition to the Yang di Pertuan Agong to be carried out smoothly without any impediment from any quarter.

The Police has announced that 4,000 police personnel have been mobilized at Dataran Merdeka to keep the peace. This is clearly an over-reaction and over-mobilisation, but with 4,000 police personnel, the police should have all the necessary assurances to ensure that the peaceful gathering to submit the petition to the Yang di Pertuan Agong will indeed be a peaceful one or something is very wrong with the status of law and order in Malaysia.

Let tomorrow be a day where all Malaysians can hold their heads high that democracy in Malaysia is observed in practice and not just in words.

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208 Replies to “Bersih Gathering/Petition to Agong – PM should show the world that Malaysia is a democratic country”

  1. Kit, they will let you march peacefully if you agree that all news coverage is banned – local and foreign. If there is nothing to report, they will not be any worry. They can control the local press, but they can’t control BBC or CNN or Asia News Channel.

  4. We all know that the genuine people would be peaceful and just want to show solidarity.

    I am concern about some fellas (most of us know who is capable of such act) who would be ‘planted’ to cause problem(screaming, causing fights, destructive) and discredit the whole thing. Then we have ..see …see …there I told you so.

  7. A bit of advice, don’t wear yellow first on your way there. When you reach Dataran Merdeka, then only change your shirt.

    See you guys there tomorrow! The world is watching and I want to show them what we’re made of!

  8. my concern would be that they will plant their own mat rempit goons into the crowd. They will then try to start making the crowd go rowdy or even start to attack the police stationed at the areas. The police will then use this as an excuse to whack everyone present while the mat rempits will be ushered to a safer place.
    Musa Hassan will then claim that the crowd started the fight with the police and that will give him credibility to have controlled the crowd albeit by using their batons, water cannons, tear gas or even live bullets to abuse the actual peaceful citizens.
    Local newspapers will then portray the gathering as unlawful and problematic right from the beginning and then give the police credit for good crowd control and for keeping the peace.
    quite predictable really….
    juz place a few monkeys into the crowd, let the monkeys throw nuts at the other 4000 monkeys who are stationed there and then there will be a monkey fight… all the doves in the middle will get hurt.

  9. i have checked with a renowned Feng Shui master and he said that tomorrow would be a good time to commit crime in other parts of the country as 4000 (min) policemen will be concentrated around KL city.

    And i didnt see the same zealousness from these police officers in nabbing criminals let alone those ever menacing Mat Rempits! If only 4000 dudes can be used to eradicate those Mat Rempits once and for all during one of those road blocks they need not fear any attacks on them during those times.

  10. The world is watching us and tomorrow we could be another scene, similar to those being played out in Burma or Pakistan.

    The police SOP is to just let go all restraint and let the crowd taste their weapons of mass chaos like water cannon and tear gas.

    I would not take children to this gathering as people are bound to be injured.

    As for others, the sad thing is that it will be a test of your resolve against those who wield power and guns.

    But if your cause is just, remember how Ghandi brought the British Empire to its knees.

  11. We have the tallest flag pole in the world.
    Made the world biggest popiah
    Sent a male model to space by hitching a ride with the Russians
    An enterprising and business minded police force

    Great la my Malaysia. Land of opportunities. Even if you are a railway gatekeeper, but if you work hard enough, you can build a huge mansion.

    Malaysia Boleh.

  12. One thing this UMNO led government hate most is the rakyat’s unity. They will for all reasons, find excuses to break this people’s power. Dollah says there Malaya saw a future 50 years ago. Now he is talking of another future. Alziemer? Or fortune -teller?

  13. Reliable sources from the police force informed that they’ll be launching an “OPS PADAM GELOMBANG KUNING” on 10 Nov 2007, requesting their men to assemble at IPK Kuala Lumpur at 7.30am.

    Where is the objectivity of our police force?

  15. My Fellow Malaysians,

    Prime Minister Badawi has threatened us if we dare proceed with the march to the Agong’s Palace on November 10. He told the UMNO general assembly this afternoon that we should “jangan mencabar saya”. Who does he thinks he is. God? Why can’t we exercise our fundamental right to make representations to our beloved King on electoral reforms?

    We should all join Anwar Ibrahim, Lim Kit Siang and Ustaz Abdul Hadi at Dataran Merdeka to show we are united as Malaysians in the cause of justice and freedom. The world is watching what the Police will do to us as we march peacefully.

    If Badawi has been doing his work properly and had kept his promises over the last 4 years as Prime Minister, Malaysians would have trusted him. Sad to say he has not been doing his job. So, he feels he is under seige and wants to show that he is tough.

    We should go out in full force and march peacfully. We must show that we are not a bunch of lawbreakers as they would make us out to be. This is the time for us to demonstrate our solidarity and support for our leaders because they are doing the right thing.

    We cannot have free and fair elections unless we reform the biased Elections Commission, and tell the Government that we have had enough of their gerrymandering and electoral fraud over all these years.

    Tonight, please pray for the safety of our friends and associates who will be in harm’s way. The Police are itching to beat up peaceful Malaysians who want things to change for the better. They are supposed to protect us, but now [deleted]

    This morning I talked some people who had come all the way from Kelantan and Terengganu. They are determined to march and convey a message to the Badawi Government that they cannot be intimidated. If they are hurt, then this will be the end of Badawi’s premiership and the BN will get a severe trashing come the next elections.

  17. Note ALL Blog Commenters Here
    Zam would be giving free publicity to your “sensational comments” in the government websites http://www.kempen.gov.my & http://www.rtm.net.my to let people “people to evaluate & assess whether Uncle Kit adhered to genuine journalism ethics”. He again took offence to a comment: “that he (Zainuddin) and Umno Youth deputy chief Khairy Jamaluddin should be killed by Mat Rempit”
    As for the BERSIH gathering the permit was denied out of “fear that there are irresponsible groups and undesired elements who will take the opportunity to create disorder through provocations which would eventually lead to street demonstrations and rioting”
    The Police are barking at the wrong tree, they should use the full force of 4000 personnel to control these small group saboteurs and the gathering can be very peaceful & incidents free. But they dare not because the SIL is there!
    More details at:
    http://powerpresent.blogspot.com/2007/11/free-publicity-for-kits-goblok-blog.html

  18. D-day, 10-11-07!

    But the BN government cannot afford to let the world know that we have sensible people who want to have a peaceful rally. Too risky to allow one, then two, then three, ……

    Monks can do it in Myanmar, other citizens can do it in their respective countries, like Thailand, Indonesia, Pakistan, and the Philippines.

    But not in Malaysia. Only the privileged led by the SIL can have rally with flag-burning thrown in.

    This is the well known double standard in Malaysia – truly an Animal Farm!

  21. Tomorrow gathering will be litmus test for Pak Lah’s fourth anniversary of his tenure as PM.

    I believe something may happen looking at the comments of IGP and PM. The world is watching us as similarly as Pakisatan and Burma though we are not Pakistan or Burma.

  22. If anyone (Planted by BN) create any problem. Let the citizen of the march arrest them, take a picture of them for identification later. And make sure they are charged and go to jail.

    At the beginning of the march, tell that to all the marcher. They have the right as citizen to do a citizen arrest. So those who try to create problem should beware. But remember to take picture of them clearly, and if possible take a picture of their NRIC too!

    Mike

  23. The fact that the rakyat, with so many years of pent-up frustrations, have finally decided to rally and present a memorandum to HRH the Agong shows the political maturity of Malaysians has come of age.

    The Agong has consented to receive the memorandum from his subjects and this rally is therefore legal under the laws and constitution of the country. The AAB govt and the police are trying to prevent the citizens of this country from communicating with their own King!

    If any incidents or violence erupts, these will undoubtedly by caused by the govt and police having planted troublemakers to initiate such incidents, and therefore giving the police no-holds-barred actions against the people.

    Rally members who carry cameras or phone cameras must be alert and take shots of any potential situation as proof that the disturbances are actually caused by such elements.

    Malaysia is a good country. It is the govt administration that has made this country shit!

  27. Abdullah Badawi wanna get tough now??

    Clearly, some senior UMNOristas have been playing with his head to the extent that he now sees the planned and peaceful March as a personal challenge to himself.

    Come November 10, Abdullah is at the cross roads of history. How does he want to be remembered? What is the legacy he chooses for himself? Oppose the tidal wave for ‘change’ and you risk drowning.

  28. Under BN, Malaysia is the only country in the world that protects the majority and marginalised the minority. They should apply the same rules in this rally to protect thousands of rakyat and look out for those dogs send by UMNO to create disorder.

  29. “….//…I for one can vouch for the bona fide of the peaceful gathering tomorrow and that there is no intention whatsoever by anyone to create any untoward incident…//…” – YB Kit.

    Everyone disaffected with the present government will naturally support Bersih, whether by joining the walk or cheering as bystander on the sideline.

    I am also sure that those who gather there to march, especially the organizers, are determined that the proceedings will be peaceful and they have given assurances such – but intention is one thing but what might happen may be unintended. One risk that you cannot discount is the outbreak of violence.

    One thing, one does not know who will mingle into the crowd to join the march. They could include government agent provocateurs, mischief makers, mat rempits, the foreigners etc.

    Another is the determination of the authorities to stop the march.

    Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi has vowed to crack down on a planned mass rally in Kuala Lumpur tomorrow and gave his support to the police to break up the protest and arrest participants. 4,000 police personnel have been mobilized.

    Peaceful march – or street demonstrations : what’s the difference?

    Street demonstrations are generally not a culture of those disaffected with the government here and the government will have every resolve to ensure that such a culture does not catch on, setting a precedent.

    They are really worried as it has been proven in neighbouring countries that massive street demonstrations had forced Marcos and Estrada from office in Philippines, Thaksin and Suharto from power in Bangkok and Suharto respectively!

    To march to HM Yang DiPertuan Agong’s palace to present the memorandum is to indirectly tell the elected governmment that it has no more legitimacy and hence an appeal is made to the King to intervene. It represents a slap in the government’s face.

    So the authorities will do whatsoever in their power to stop the march and if the marchers are equally determined to proceed with the march deemed illegal because no permit has been given nor will it be given, what we are witnessing here on the eve of this grand expression of Malaysian Democracy is a headlong confrontation and an inevitable potential clash!

    No one can say for sure that in such a clash, violence will not break out or escalate between uniformed personnel and crowd. It can happen! Not only the potential for injuries is present but so will the possibility of an immediate crackdown AKA Operation Lallang style in its wake immediately putting a brake on whatever nascent freedom of expression being experimented so far by the Pak Lah’s administration.

    Promoters and organizers of Bersih must calculating that on the eve of general election the government cannot afford a clash and therefore the police will relent and let marchers have their way to make the moral point rather than risk skulls being cracked, bones being fractured and blood being spilled (not to mention the bad erffect on foreign investments in the Northern, Southern and Eastern Corridors) but notwithstanding such calculations, it is still a gamble and I would not discount entirely the worst case scenario happening!

  30. Here’s what Anwar Ibrahim got to say about the man:

    “The upshot is that Abdullah’s Administration has become one in which there is strong speculation he is not really in charge. He is viewed as weak and indecisive and in some quarters not as clean as he is made out to be. Give it a little more time and even those Malays in our localities who would frown upon my criticism against him will now say that his grace period is over and it’s open season.”

  31. It will be a joke if Dr.M walks with Kit and Wan Azizah and all respected leaders from all parties and NGOS’tomorrow.But ofcourse i’d rather that joke becomes true cause that will indeed make a lot of difference for the peaceful march even though i don’t like him at all.Lets pray for tomorrow and may the royalties bless us all :)
    God Speed:)~

  32. YAB AAB; you always say you want listen to the TRUTH; so tomorrow is the right time for you to listen to the TRUTH from the Rakyat not from your cronies.
    Hidup Daulat Tuanku; Hidup Malaysia; Hidup Rakyat;

  34. Hi all,

    To everyone attending tomorrow march other than myself, please be encouraged that we have moral and historical precedent.

    This is something I read in the Letter from Birmingham Jail written by Martin Luther King Jr dated 16 April 1963.

    You express a great deal of anxiety over our willingness to break laws. This is certainly a legitimate concern. Since we so diligently urge people to obey the Supreme Court’s decision of 1954 outlawing segregation in the public schools, at first glance it may seem rather paradoxical for us consciously to break laws. One may won ask: “How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?” The answer lies in the fact that there fire two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the Brat to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that “an unjust law is no law at all”.

    Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine whether a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man-made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas: An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal .law and natural law. Any law that uplifts human personality is just. Any law that degrades human personality is unjust. All segregation statutes are unjust because segregation distort the soul and damages the personality. It gives the segregator a false sense of superiority and the segregated a false sense of inferiority. Segregation, to use the terminology of the Jewish philosopher Martin Buber, substitutes an “I-it” relationship for an “I-thou” relationship and ends up relegating persons to the status of things. Hence segregation is not only politically, economically and sociologically unsound, it is morally wrong and awful. Paul Tillich said that sin is separation. Is not segregation an existential expression ‘of man’s tragic separation, his awful estrangement, his terrible sinfulness? Thus it is that I can urge men to obey the 1954 decision of the Supreme Court, for it is morally right; and I can urge them to disobey segregation ordinances, for they are morally wrong.

    Let us consider a more concrete example of just and unjust laws. An unjust law is a code that a numerical or power majority group compels a minority group to obey but does not make binding on itself. This is difference made legal. By the same token, a just law is a code that a majority compels a minority to follow and that it is willing to follow itself. This is sameness made legal. Let me give another explanation. A law is unjust if it is inflicted on a minority that, as a result of being denied the right to vote, had no part in enacting or devising the law. Who can say that the legislature of Alabama which set up that state’s segregation laws was democratically elected? Throughout Alabama all sorts of devious methods are used to prevent Negroes from becoming registered voters, and there are some counties in which, even though Negroes constitute a majority of the population, not a single Negro is registered. Can any law enacted under such circumstances be considered democratically structured?

    Sometimes a law is just on its face and unjust in its application. For instance, I have been arrested on a charge of parading without a permit. Now, there is nothing wrong in having an ordinance which requires a permit for a parade. But such an ordinance becomes unjust when it is used to maintain segregation and to deny citizens the First Amendment privilege of peaceful assembly and protest.

    I hope you are able to ace the distinction I am trying to point out. In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law, as would the rabid segregationist. That would lead to anarchy. One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty. I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.

  36. Abdullah is not Mahathir and he does not have the supports Mahathir once have. If there’s any arrest to be made, it should have been done by now. But of course, Abdullah is still thinking about what to do. It will be too late for Abdullah when the sun rise.

  37. “Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi has vowed to crack down on a planned mass rally in Kuala Lumpur tomorrow and gave his support to the police to break up the protest and arrest participants. 4,000 police personnel have been mobilized.”

    Another mistake by Abdullah. There’s only two ways to deal with this kind of thing. Use the ISA or permit the mass rally, Abdullah can score some political points with the latter. But to crack down on demonstrators is close to political suicide.

  39. Sean: “It will be a joke if Dr.M walks with Kit and Wan Azizah and all ..”

    If Mahathir could be pursuaded to participate, he should do so from a wheel chair. If they want to arrest the other leaders, Mahathir should ask that he be arrested along with them.

    But you gotta understand Mahathir has an axe to grind – it is an axe not shared by the rest of us who want to see change.

  42. My prayers that the “march” to the palace will be a peaceful one and may everything turn out well for one and all. Whatever it is, please remember that patience is a very strong virtue. May all be well and happy, and may no untoward incidents surface, my sincere prayers for the safety of one and all, be he be one who is against this event or for this event.
    Take care brothers and sisters.

  44. malaysia is the worst in democratic country in the world, pak lah deny this gathering just bcos pak lah scare to lose in coming election so he use this dirty way to protect his political power, yes!! i also think tomorow pak lah maybe use ISA to detain BERSIH leader and participant. so BANYAK BUSUH BN

  47. To think that the nature of the protest is limited to the confines of Dataran Merdeka (which when translated reads “Independence Square”) is to belittle the struggle for freedom everywhere. Already friends from other countries sympathetic to our plight for freedom in Malaysia are making plans to show themselves alongside Malaysian protestors in front of 313 East 43rd Street in New York.

  51. This corrupted government run by proxy by an unelected son in law must go…..one way or the other…..people didnt sacrifice their blood, sweat, tears and lives for these jokers to do as they please…….they listen to us…….not the other way round……and since they have chosen to cheat electorally to gain power……..two can always play at the game………so let the games begin

  52. Free & Fair election when Badawi is being tested. Face the fact, Badawi was given the election last time by a generous and desperate population. This election he is being tested and Badawi does not test well.. In most developed countries, Badawi would not have even got the last election.

    Badawi cannot afford to big a set back in this election or it would weaken his hold on the party – it would provide means for the power brokers in UMNO to back him against the wall.

    The problem is Badawi has not kept his promise of the last election and is unlikely to keep his promises anytime soon. He is merely an administrator with a modicum of skill. More suited to work for somebody else than to lead especially in times of difficulties. All is fine so long as we don’t go into a crises but come a big downturn, we are all in trouble because he is now in charge.

  53. The march, not sanctioned by the police – and hence technically an unlawful assembly – is an act of defiance to “test waters” – the will of Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi.

    The main counter strategy of authorities is to stop intending participants from entering the city and gathering at Dataran in the first place. Because once a huge number is gathered there, the crowd becomes hard to control when they start the march. The city will therefore likely be cordoned off by road blocks. They are concerned with PAS’s followers – who are more experienced and daring with street demonstrations – hence all motorists and buses from East Coast via Karak Highway – will be screened and turned back.

    The key to the march taking off in a significant way boils down to logistics : how do the organisers circumvent the police cordons being erected at strategic perimeters of entry points to the City! Is there a “plan B” – are there sufficient meeting points outside the city and the cordons to come in via LRT or roads unmanned by road blocks?

    The LRT will be packed and key exit points (eg Majek Jamek) will see heavy police presence.

    The fact that “yellow” is the colour of protests makes it easier to identify who to turn back. The police tasks are so march harder if organizers do not make “yellow the colour” because then there’s no way to differentiate demonstrators from others entering the city for normal economic activities. They will have to fenced off and shut down the city at great economic costs.

    The whole success or failure will hinge on issue of logistics.

  55. Organizer have to keep their calm. The police is going to provoke them, push the limit. If protestors are not willing to take a beating, they should not go. Let the police drag them away….

    In the end, the PM cannot afford to have pictures of beaten up people spread all over the place. Makes him look like Myanmar generals.

  58. “Malaysia will become the laughing-stock in the international arena”

    Hello, YB Kit, my question is “Aren’t we already?”. Every time our Ministers go abroad & attend some international conference, others think lowly of them. But our “Boleh” Ministers still pretend to be importaant and give press conferences only to our own press, sadly, to create impression to Malaysians back home they are making a significant contribution!

    Brainless birds who see not the distinctions in the flight paths of great nations.

    For example, Hishammuddin’s election to UNESCO – ha, ha, he can’t even make a meaningful impact on Malaysian education. Look at his flip-flops over the BM for English & Maths in schools. Ha, ha, I’m laughing too, so why not foreigners? So what kind of an impact can you expect Keris-muddin to make on international education? HA, ha, don’t have to look very far…each year our Universiy rankings internationally keeep dropping. Soon, I guess, soon enough, there willl be as many kampung universities as there are madrasahs and as many graduates as there are mullahs.

  59. Massive jam near Eastin Sprint Highway towards KL since last nite, stucked there for 30min. Dataran Merdeka closed with FRU and policemen (passed there 10.30am this morning). Looks like someone pressing red alert button from the top.

    AAB gomen truly disgrace to the RAKYAT. Why is he and his cronies so scared of the RAKYAT to the extend of instructing the poilice to carry M16s and sub-machine guns??

    ULTTERLY DISGRACE TO ALL MALAYSIANS!!! Time for him and his cronies to step down!!!

  61. “how do the organisers circumvent the police cordons being erected at strategic perimeters of entry points to the City! Is there a “plan B” – are there sufficient meeting points outside the city and the cordons to come in via LRT or roads unmanned by road blocks?” Jeffrey

    They should straight away gather at the Istana. Abdullah will be naive to think that if he can stop it this time, he can stop it the next time or all the time. To go head on with the protestors is walking straight into the trap set up by Anwar for him.

  62. I wish I can join in the gathering but too bad I’m tied up with my work in OZ. Still I will wish and pray for the safety of all of you going there. Hope we can see something positive end of today.

    LET OUR VOICE BE HEARD!!

    p/s: hope there is an update in this blog about the gathering by end of today. :)

  64. Whoever can master the art/science of misinformation and deceit will win the battle on the streets.

    The use of yellow openly before the actual demo has given the police an advantage.

    The organisers may have a plan B or C to neutralise the authorities’ power if the permit is denied.

    Just a simple scenario. There could be 40 or more gathering places with 50% of them dummies, the organisers could decide the actual place 15 minutes before the time and reduce the time to respond.

    Use of cell-phones and SMS can be critical. But of course these marchers want a peaceful rally and applied for a permit.

    That should have been granted in the first place as even the PM’s sil was offered a police permit not that long ago.
    Why the special treatment?

  65. Everyone should understand that Bersih is by origination a political proposition conceived by a political party like PKR, and necessarily have to be supported by political members, parties or sympathizers in the alternative front.

    Whatever support Bersih gets from NGOs and human rights civil society is but ancillary to what is essentially a partisan political demonstration. Suhakam has not given the definitive word that it supports this. Although the Bar Council organized the Bar’s Walk for Justice, it does not direct its members to attend Bersih demonstration whilst respective political parties like PKR, PAS and DAP do!

    Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi said that it was not the Malaysian way to have street demonstrations and that change should be effected through constitutional means of the ballot box via general election.

    The organizers have countered this by saying that the ballot box has been rigged with gerrymandering, phantom voters etc that hence the electoral process itself does not provide the level playing field for democratic expression, which is why the march is organized – to demand reform of the electoral process.

    There are various problems here.

    First why to the Yang di-Pertuan Agong? Has the King the royal prerogative or constitutional power to override the government to reform the electoral process?

    Secondly, the police have, rightly or wrongly, not given the permit for the gathering ala demonstration – which makes the assembly an illegal one, and participation thereof contrary to law.

    The argument as I understand it is again the law has been used by powers-that-be to stifle lawful dissent and demonstration and constitutional right to assembly; the argument as I understand it is to justify the breaking of the law based on the higher moral imperative of civil disobedience Gandhi style to pressure for change!

    Then there is this objection – what happens if the big crowd gets out of control and a riot happens? There will be injuries; property damage and even lives lost. Who will bear responsibility for this?

    This has a very high risk of happening when neither Bersih nor the authorities would stand down and each inevitably heads for what is inevitably a dangerous collision course!

    Bersih’s position is that the police should have given the permits to assemble applied for. Once given, the assembly is legal with risk of confrontation immediately diffused. The argument is that in all or most cases of permit being given or at least a non-interventionist approach being taken by the police, Special Branch and FRU, there will be no violence and demonstration will be peaceful.

    Such an argument ignores two realities:

    The first is that the organizers cannot vouch for certain all kinds of mischief makers, Mat rempits the foreigners co-mingling amongst the crowd. Even the government itself cannot control certain section or reactionary faction within it, desiring an end to relatively freer culture of public expression to plant, their provocateurs to instigate trouble to maximize chances of an official crackdown in the interest or pretext of public order..

    Secondly as I said, this is not a Western Country or government, and the powers-that-be will not allow a march to the palace to underscore the legitimacy of an elected government, no matter how flawed the electoral process might have been. It will not tolerate an open defiance of the law and the government, setting an unprecedented way of effecting change through demonstrations, a throw back from the earlier Reformasi demonstrations when Anwar was incarcerated and of which PKR/PAS have the organisational skills in organising protests of these sorts which the authorities are wary of.

    This kind of thing also raises in the government’s calculations the spectre of what happened in neighbouring countries of Philippines, Indonesia and Thailand where Marcos, Estrada, Suharto and Thaksin respectively had been deposed by force of massive demonstrations in circumvention of the Constitutions.

    For these reasons, it appears that the clash and ensuing violence are not remote at all this afternoon if neither side gives in to the other.

    If the worse happens, something akin to Yangon albeit smaller scale, what has been done as a way forward in Democracy may just turn out as a way immediately backward providing the very pretext needed by the government (or at least that section of it opposed to democratic reform) to end the PM’s nascent experiment of tolerating a freer public debate culture and use the ISA to clamp down ala Operation Lallang style all organisers opposition leaders and dissidents like RPK under the excuse of public order…..

    The only thing that can avert this will be divine intention : if and when thunderstorms douse the demonstration at the appointed time.

  66. My prayers for this gathering to be a success and a victory for the Malaysian people . The government has to changed its paradigm or , have itself replaced . Don t they know that the same tactics again and again will not work ?

  69. Try to catch Al-Jazeera news bulletin from 3.00pm onwards. The station is tracking the rally and some independent opinions from Kuala Lumpur will be telecast. Actually BERSIH should had tried to invite foreign observers to witness the march

  70. The whole nation is watching and those far away unable to attend will have their eyes glued to Aljazeera, cnn, cnbc and bbc for foreigners report because there’s no credibility in state-owned tv stations anymore. Bersih is adamant to go ahead with it in the next few hours. Looks like to keep the peace, the govt should summon the FRU and police to relax, just keep watch and escort the marchers peacefully. It’s still not too late.

    If the FRU and police gets tough on those ‘peaceful marchers’, that result in bloodshed, it may be the end of PM Abdullah Ahmad Badawi’s govt and they can say bye-bye in the next General Election due soon. This is real and it’s time the BN Govt come down to earth.

  71. Jeffrey, your observation is very well dissected.

    “This kind of thing also raises in the government’s calculations the spectre of what happened in neighbouring countries of Philippines, Indonesia and Thailand where Marcos, Estrada, Suharto and Thaksin respectively had been deposed by force of massive demonstrations in circumvention of the Constitutions.”

    Abdullah and UMNO has miscalculated; he should allowed the gathering as Uncle Kit put it; “The Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi should show the world that Malaysia is a democratic country by allowing the peaceful gathering organized by Bersih (Coalition for Free and Fair Elections) at the Dataran Merdeka in Kuala Lumpur tomorrow to submit a memorandum to the Yang di Pertuan Agong on electoral reforms.”

    I suppose such a forceful decision to crack down on demontrators was concieved during the UMNO GA. This shows that Abdullah and UMNO is scared. The advantages in today’s mass rally goes to the oppositions.

  73. The Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi should do something NOW! It’s still not too late.

    Summon your police and FRU, call off the confrontation, stop the intimidation and avoid bloodshed. The marchers are not armed so there is no cause to arm the police and FRU with M16 firearms!

    We all know what the result will be even before they start. If this is allowed to continue, we will all weep for MALAYSIA!

  74. Pingback: MALAISIE BLEH (part 1?) « Honestly Dead

  76. OUR SUPREME LEADER – DYMM YDP AGONG HAS INSTRUCTED THE ARMED FORCES TO PROTECT THE MARCHERS ! Reported from :- http://www.malaysia-today.net/nuc2006/report07.php?itemid=158
    DAULAT TUANKU! DAULAT TUANKU! DAULAT TUANKU!

    The police forces are completely paralyzed and useless, using M16s and sub-machine guns to create fears and intimidate crowd, road blocks to stop RAYKAT from entering the city. Why are they so scared of the RAKYAT who are arranging peaceful march with only yellow bands and T-shirt??

    Is this the kind of gomen we have??? Only know how to harass, intimidate and suppress the RAKYAT???

    By the way, already in KL since morning.

  77. Just leaving a comment here to support the Bersih Gathering.

    If possible, please take as many pictures or videos during the event.

    Although I cannot be there to be part of it, I would like to make sure that what we fought for, did not end up in vain and forgotten.

    I’ll try my best to do my part to spread the pictures and videos to keep the fighting spirit from dying. It’s at least what I can afford to do now.

    You can post pictures in Youtube or in here. Whatever you do, please don’t let the spirit die and forgotten. Post it.

  81. Uncle Kit,

    Our full moral support for YOU and your JUSTICE Defenders!!
    Do as long as You think is Right, Just Do it without Fear and
    Justice!! Long Live PPP, Long Live DAP!!

    All sensible and potential Voters are behind you, as your
    backbone and support!!

    Uphold the clean principle of JUSTICE and Fairness to All
    Malaysians and for better future of Malaysia!!

  83. All theya re asking for is the permission to send a message to the DYMM SPB YDP Agung for free and fair elections. Thats what this is all about!

    If the PM wants to stop it, he is admitting that the elections are not fair and free!

    I hope the DYMM SPB YDP Agung is noting this point and takes necessary actions to protect his subjects. All we are asking for is free and fair elections!

    The position of DYMM SPB YDP Agung comes with great responsibiliity, and Tuanku is the person to rise to the occasion to protect his subjects!

  96. Mkini
    3.30pm: Seven members of Bersih will be allowed to go to the gate to hand in the memorandum calling for the King’s intervention in bringing poll reforms. The delegation is waiting for ex-deputy premier Anwar Ibrahim to arrive. He was caught in the traffic jam and has opted to travel by motorbike.

  97. Badawi
    Shame on you. The people are exercising their rights to protest in a country that they believe to be a democratic one too. You have just stripped their rights and take our country’s democratic reputation down in the eyes of the world.

    You have failed to support their decision to protest, therefore failed to uphold the simple basis of democracy.

    You have failed this country and failed us all.

    My fellow people,
    This my friends, could maybe lead our country to just like what happened in Burma. This is living evidence that we are no longer in a democratic country.

    This country isn’t what it was, a democratic country. We have to continue to fight for our rights or else we’ll lose what we’ve gain 50 years ago.

    They have won this battle, but the war has just begun.

  99. Harakah Daily:
    3:41:43 pm MYT
    Terkini!, polis mula bertindak menahan peserta perhimpunan dengan 13 orang setakat ini dilaporkan ditahan di Dataran Merdeka.

    Wartawan Harakah Azamin Amin melaporkan, polis mula menyerbu orang ramai untuk menahan sesiapa sahaja terutamanya mereka yang berpaiakan kuning.

    Keadaan semakin kelam-kabut dan polis mengambil kesempatan menahan secara rambang tidak kira siapa sahaja.

    Setakat ini polis berpakaian preman digunakan bagi menahan sesiapa sahaja yang melintas, berada atau menyusuri jalan sekitar Dataran Merdeka, Pertama Komplek, Jalan Masjid India dan Masjid Jamek.

    http://www.malaysia-today.net/nuc2006/report07.php?itemid=158

  100. Mkini
    4pm: The Bersih delegation led by Anwar Ibrahim handed the memorandum to the King’s secretary at the gate of the Istana Negara. Anwar is accompanied by PAS’ Hadi Awang and Nasharuddin Mat Isa and DAP’s Lim Kit Siang and Lim Guan Eng. The organisers are asking the 40,000-strong crowd to disperse. Nasharuddin describes the event as a resounding success.

  101. Thank you all, thank you BERSIH and all 71 entities to make this Peaceful Peoples’ Assembly a resounding success despite all odds. My deep appreciation for all that you guys went through – Police intimidation, gas and chemical spray, ordered by Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi and his BN Government on the rakyat.

  109. For those who are there, I wish to express good luck and thank you for fighting for us all.

    I’m feeling guilty right now for not being about to be there.

    Exercise your rights well and let us show the world we are a peaceful protest. Let us be reminded that the world is watching us now.

    Join arms brothers and sisters (if you’re not shy). If they have to take anyone of you, they will have no choice but to take all of you (unless the police actually break your arms which I certainly don’t hope so). Some are already arrested. This will provoke us, so stay close together.

  114. YB Lim, I hope you are all right. My 4-wheeler was stopped as I made the mistake of using pink (not really yellow). I can’t use alternative transport – my legs can’t move far.

    I hpe everybody else are okay.

  116. Jeffrey,
    I think the more you write, the more you show your stupidity. You are essentially a talk cock king. Why is it so difficult for you to see the intrinsic value of the gathering itself? Why contemplate whether the King has the inherent power to do certain thing? Why ponder over the legality of the gathering? Why concern about nascent experience of a more tolerant culture (is there in the first place)? The whole world knows that the government has been behaving and acting above the law and yet you are here talking about the legality of the gathering. Frankly, you swarm the blog with your inconsequential and irrelevant views. From now on, can you please be more precise and concise.

  117. I just got back from the rally, damn tired now. I would say it was a success because I didn’t see much violence. Isolated incidents at Masjid Jamek and Sogo, got trapped and sprayed. The crowd was HUGE!

  119. I just got back…im damn tired but the rally was a huge success…i was caught in masjid jamek where FRU opened fired with thier water cannons and me and my fiancee were caught in a tear gas salvo…

    IT BLARDY HURTS LIKE HELL…lucky i had water to wash our the substance in our eyes and ears, managed to use the back alleys to reach the main march…

    the crowd was HUGE…..very muhibbah…

  120. To my fellow brothers and sisters who were out there, a very big SYABAS!!!!!!!!! I sincerely thank you all for a job well done, you indeed showed that you care, as for me, I am rather sad that I couldn’t be there to lend my support as I live way up north and with health problems to top it all. I hope those few who are detained will come to no harm, I pray strongly that they will be set free without any conditions. Syabas again, we have proven that difficulties can be overcome by patience and I do feel sorry for the security forces, I am sure that many of them sympathised with the movement but their hands are tied for they too, like us, have to work to provide food for their loved ones.
    Once again, WELL DONE FELLOW BROTHERS AND SISTERS, YOUNG AND OLD.
    Oh, BTW, this “Yellow wave” idea has made me a new friend this morning, I was in the market and I saw a malay lady, she was totally yellow except for her pair of slippers. I was only half yellow, She looked at me and I looked at her, we smiled and introduced ourselves.

  124. This is what the opposition parties should do – put aside your differences and ideologies, discuss, compromise, work together, and merge to form a multiracial political party with a common objective to topple the BN government through the ballot boxes.

    As this event has shown, common people in the streets are fed up with the current Umno dominated BN government and they want change. But they want a strong and sincere viable alternative that respects and treasures each and every Malaysian, regardless of race. They have enough lies and bullshit from Umno for the last 50 years. Enough is enough.

    Well done, people. Hormat to all of you.

    It could and should have been a peaceful gathering – except our PM’s ego suddenly became very big and he decided that he should not be challenged and he did not wish to listen to rakyat. Heaven wept for our PM!

    People should wake up from his “Walk with me”, “Speak the truth”, “Talk to me”, “I’m your PM”, “I love you” sweet talk or bullshit.

  125. “…//…Why is it so difficult for you to see the intrinsic value of the gathering itself?…//” – Limkamput

    Well Limkamput, the “intrinsic value of the gathering” is as what YB Kit said at the palace gates before going in to deliver the petition, “the Malaysian public must be allowed to express their opinions and views,” something which you seem intolerant of if the opinions expressed are not in accord with your sentiments.

    If you think insult based on a mixture of sterile logic and venom is an effective means to make others conform just to avoid a vexation of the spirit, I am sorry to disappoint you that it does not always work.

    At this moment, it seems fairer to this blog to shrug off your comments – to which you are certainly entitled – than to engage quid pro quo at your level of discourse. :)

  126. I’ve seen nothing like this in decades where all the races come together and fight for a common cause, and really showing concern for each other. The Barisan Alternative has achieved somethings that the BN can only dream of. I pray and hope that BA WILL make a positive change in the next GE for our beloved country.

  129. This is reminiscent of the confrontation University of Malaya undergrads had with the FRU in 1969 in front of the Dewan Chancellor. Students then could not be frightened so easily as tear gas cannisters were quickly picked up and thrown back at them. Rubber bullets were fired and students were proud to show the marks these made on their bodies to the photographers.

  131. Though I do not agree with everything Jeffrey says, I do think that his comments are often the most sensible among all visitors. He is anything but stupid. In fact, I think his manner of conducting discussion and debate is exemplary. Some of Limkamput’s accusations are wide of the mark. For example, Limkamput thinks that Jeffrey’s focus on the legality of the gathering is misplaced, given that the government has been acting above the law. What Limkamput implies here is that gathering illegally is a lesser evil, which is the best thing that a good citizen in our situation can do, because if we don’t opt for this lesser evil, we will unwittingly contribute to a greater evil – the lawlessness of Malaysian government in fraudulent electoral practices. However, this is not something Jeffrey denies. In fact, his comment shows that he is well aware of this argument for the illegal gathering as the lesser evil. As a matter of fact, he engages with such an argument and finds this argument wanting for ignoring two problems. Prima facie, illegal gathering to protest the government’s fraudulent practices seems to be the lesser evil (compared with the government’s fraudulent practices). Jeffrey does not deny this. What Jeffrey points out (very wisely) is that whether it is a lesser evil depends on how the illegal gathering operates in realities – if the circumstances are such that such illegal gatherings are very likely to lead to widespread damages or injuries, then the supposed lesser evil will no longer be a lesser evil when it is compounded by other unintended evils arising from the illegal gathering. Of course, I’m not saying that any protest that involves injuries will make it a worse evil than the evil that the protest is addressing. Whether it is so depends on individual cases and involves very complex assessment and considerations. As an analytic philosopher, I hail Limkamput’s principle of precise and concise discourse. However, Jeffrey’s analysis of a complicated situation does not appear to me to violate the principle of precise and concise discourse. Sometimes the situation is complex and the most precise and concise analysis will appear quite complicated. I always believe that simplicity is an indicator of truth, but we must not confuse simplicity with simplistic reasoning that fails to take various considerations into account.

  132. Lee Wang Yen: What Limkamput implies here is that gathering illegally is a lesser evil, which is the best thing that a good citizen in our situation can do, because if we don’t opt for this lesser evil, we will unwittingly contribute to a greater evil.

    Hello, don’t put words into my mouth. When did I ever say the gathering is illegal? It is only for non-discerning brains like yours and Jeffrey’s that the gathering is illegal. Why illegal, may I ask? Is it because the Government said so? Unwittingly, I think most of you are victims of years of indoctrination and subtle inculcation. Whether sensible or otherwise, Jeffrey is famous complicating issues that are blatantly clear – to show his intellectual prowess perhaps. You may accuse me for being simplistic, but he is hollow sophistication.

    By the way, your writing style is awfully similar to Jeffrey.

  133. Pak Lah and UMNO will wake up to a new morning. All that confidence will evaporate with this new reality.

    The public is pissed angry. And its going to stay that way until real changes are made. And no doublespeak can befuddle the public!

    The Minister of Information gave a good performance of how the government is – rubbish!

  134. Gathering without permit is illegal according to the law. But ‘illegal’ does not necessarily mean ‘immoral’. Some illegal acts may be moral – e.g. smuggling the Bible into countries that ban the Bible. So the fact that I think that the gathering (without permit) is illegal does not mean that I think that the gathering is morally wrong – so you have made a very rash and unfounded accusation when you say that we are victims of years of indoctrination and subtle inculcation. If I had thought that the gathering was morally wrong simply because it was illegal, then you would be right that I was the victim you said I was. But you need to distinguish between legality and morality or moral legitimacy before you make any rash accusation.
    I have never said that you said what I said you implied. What I said you implied was what I inferred from what you said. Inference is part and parcel of rational discourse, and not putting words into people’s mouth. So the question is whether the inference is justified. I think it is. Given that any rational person will agree that gathering without a permit in a country is illegal according to the law of that country, my inference that you think that the illegal gathering is a lesser evil is well justified: because I think that you’re like any other rational person who thinks that the gathering is illegal. Note that I’m not saying that the illegal gathering is ipso facto immoral. While rational people disagree about whether the illegal gathering is moral, I don’t think there is any rational person who would disagree that the gathering is illegal- because it has violated the law of Malaysia. Of course, violation of law does not mean that the gathering is ipso facto morally bad, because the law may be morally bad. You tend to jump to conclusions in your comments without doing justice to the relevant considerations.

  135. The so-called ‘blatantly clear’ issues that Jeffrey is accused of complicating may look ‘blatantly clear’ because one fails to appreciate the complexities of these issues. The moral dilemma involved in mass protest is a case in point.

  136. It’s “illegal” because as the PM said so? Police refused to give permit for the ‘Bersih’s Peaceful People’s Assembly” because the Prime Minister who is also the Minister of Internal Affairs said so. This Malaysian GOD and founder of Islam Hardhari made it very clear at UMNO General Assembly:

    “Saya pantang dicabar(I don’t like to be challenged)!”

    Only he can cheat and rigg the electoral rolls? We must press on until this govt agrees to reforms. His memories are short, he has forgotten it’s the rakyat who put him where he is today.

  137. An act in violation of a country’s law does not necessarily mean that the act is morally wrong or bad, because the law may be morally bad or wrong, or the implementation of the law may be unjust or flawed, thus making a particular ruling based on that law morally wrong or bad.
    Hey, moral reasoning is not as simple as what some thinks it is. As in legal reasoning, there are a lot of caveats and qualifications.

  138. Jong says

    “Only he can cheat and rigg the electoral rolls? We must press on until this govt agrees to reforms. His memories are short, he has forgotten it’s the rakyat who put him where he is today.”

    Ahhhhh…maybe we didnt put him there afterall. If one can rig the electoral role who needs the rakyat to put one in position. Who needs YOU? Who needs ME?

  140. Dear Jong,

    I agree with you that the Police’s refusal to grant the permit is unjustified. Setting aside the important considerations of potential damages and injuries, we can justify the illegal gathering as a morally good or even noble thing with one of the following ways. 1. One can argue that it is a lesser evil in a moral dilemma where one has to choose between a lesser evil (violating a country’s law) and a greater evil (allowing the government to abuse the law and persist in their fraudulent practices). 2. Alternatively, one could argue that the illegal gathering is not even a lesser evil, because it is not evil at all. An act that is normally evil may not be evil in some circumstances. Under normal circumstances, running the red light for fun on busy roads is morally evil because it may cause injuries or deaths. But if you take a critically ill passenger in your car at 3am where the road is almost completely clear (of cars and people), that specific circumstance makes the act of running red light non-evil. Likewise, one could argue that the abuse of law on the part of the Malaysian police makes the illegal gathering non-evil

  141. Please note that the issue that matters is not whether the gathering is illegal or not. The important issue is whether it is morally justified. One who thinks that the gathering is illegal may think that it is a noble and even obligatory act and thus gives it full support.
    The Christian missionary that smuggles copies of Bible into a country that bans the Bible is under no illusion that his act is not illegal. But he takes pride in this illegal act – because he thinks he is doing something right and he thinks that the law that bans the Bible is morally wrong.

  142. Therefore, my point is this. For those who have weighed the good that can come out of this illegal gathering against the potential damages and injuries and found that on balance the illegal gathering is still a greater good, they will and should support the gathering and think that they are doing a good and even noble thing.
    But I think they are under no illusion (if they are rational) – they will recognise that the morally good or noble or even obligatory thing that they do is illegal. They won’t think that just because what they do is morally good, they are not breaking the law. They just think that, in this case, breaking the law is good because either the law is bad or the implementation of it is bad.

  143. Lee wan yen,
    Sorry, you infer wrong! I never for a minute think that the gathering was illegal. So your sophisticated mind is not sophisticated enough after all. It was not illegal, period. If the law is immoral and at the same time can be arbitrarily applied, why are you worried whether or not it is legal or illegal? This is what I meant by hollow sophistication and you are fast becoming one (that is, if you are not Jeffrey). You go ahead and try to keep yourself within the confine of the law. Frankly I have no time for all these nonsensical polemics. If you are concerned with the unintended consequences of this so called illegal gathering, knowing that the present government (and the past) has almost shut all avenues of fair contest of ideas, it is better for you to join the MCA or Gerakan. Let the rape of this nation goes on. Why bother to come here.

  144. I have never said that my inference is correct. I’ve just said that my inference is justified. In rational discussion conducted responsibly or fairly, what matters is justified inference (as opposed to unjustified or unfounded inference). A justified belief is not always a true belief. So what matters for a responsible and rational discussion is whether one party has made justified inferences.
    My inference is justified because I assume that you are a rational interlocutor and I assume that any rational person will agree that a country’s law has been broken in this case – and thus the gathering is illegal. My assumption that you are a rational person is both justified and charitable. My assumption that any rational person will agree that a country’s law has been broken in this case is also well justified, for the reason I mentioned in my previous postings.

  146. What do you mean by ‘illegal’? Act X is illegal if doing X in a place P breaks the law of P. That is an uncontroversial definition of the word ‘illegal’. What is controversial is whether doing X is morally bad in some specific circumstances.
    If you think that gathering without permit in a country where such permit is required is not illegal, you’re in effect denying this definition. I would like to know what definition of ‘illegal’ you have in mind that makes you think that the act is not illegal.
    When you mention that a law is immoral or badly applied in your latest posting, this shows that you’ve confused the morality and legality of an act.
    I agree with you that when a law is morally bad or a good law is abused/badly implemented, (all else being equal) we have an overriding reason to do the illegal thing (and be proud of it), but this does not mean that the act is not illegal.

  147. Limkamput (‘Lyun kam’ [Cantonese] ‘put’ [English]) said:
    ‘You go ahead and try to keep yourself within the confine of the law.’
    This shows that you don’t even read or understand my postings. I have said that we should not keep ourselves within the confine of the law under certain circumstances. I have even provided philosophical justification for this claim. I have already implied that
    1. a missionary should not obey the law that bans the import of Bible into a country.
    2. we should run red light if doing so well save life and not endanger life.
    3. we should go to illegal gathering if either we think that it is a greater good or think that a specific circumstance makes it non-evil.
    Please at least read before responding.

  149. …..to engage quid pro quo at your level of discourse. Jeffrey

    Why, my level too low for you? Surely you are a very humble person.

    One more thing, please don’t forget that tolerance includes not just freedom of others to express their views but also the ability to accept criticism of your postings. I think you have held sway with your half baked ideas for too long. You will be hearing from me more often from now on, whether you like it or not.

  150. Dear Lee WY,

    Aiyoo, reading your piece twice further confuses me. I’m no lawyer lah!

    OK I have this point to make – that the PM has no bleddy right to instruct his Police not to grant permit for the march, afteral it’s our rights to freedom of expression and what more,
    the organiser BERSIH backed by 71 separate entities had assured them it will be a peaceful one so it’s the Police’s duty to make sure there is civil obedience and peace be maintained throughout the march from Dataran Merdeka to the Agong’s Istana.

    As beano dino above asked “Why can’t we exercise our fundamental right to make representations to our beloved King on electoral reforms?”

    Wouldn’t it be easier if permit was issued, so simple and the Prime Minister will come out ‘magnanimous’. The very fact that permit was refused was not only unjustified but morally wrong too.
    Where’s that Prime Minister of All Malaysians and religious founder of Islam Hardhari? He is not only deceptive but the Grandmaster of Duplicity!!!!

    How come his kurang ajar SIL was ‘allowed’ to create monkey biz during the visit US Sec of State Condo Rice? Why the double standard? Why was there no action was taken against him and his gang of baboons who created havoc in KL and embarrassed the country’s VIP Guest yet they were not pepper sprayed? Was it because he’s family and that’s his god-given right to do anything he likes?

  151. “One more thing, please don’t forget that tolerance includes not just freedom of others to express their views but also the ability to accept criticism of your postings.” Limkamput

    Oh yes, absolutely, we can all start by calling others stupid, and of course, an essential talking cock king.

  152. Lee wang yen,
    Hello, you also never read my posting. My question to you was: why are you worried whether the gathering is legal or illegal given the circumstances we are in. Your examples about being morally right and legally wrong are grade one stuff. Ok, I will make it very simple for you: I defiantly said that the gathering is NOT illegal, happy now? Your egoism knows no bound. Please, I am not interested in your hollow sophistication.

  153. You’re welcome to criticise anyone’s postings, including those of Jeffrey and mine. But I have shown that many of your arguments are problematic – they frequently jump to conclusions, sometimes without reading or understanding properly what others have said.
    We should exercise our freedom responsibly.

  154. Your question stems from your misunderstanding of the point that I was making. Had you understood correctly you wouldn’t ask that question (because in that case you wouldn’t think that I was worried about whether the gathering is illegal or not).
    In fact, I HAVE SAID MORE THAN ONCE THAT WHAT MATTERS IS NOT WHETHER THE GATHERING IS ILLEGAL. THE REAL ISSUE THAT MATTERS IS WHETHER IS IS MORALLY JUSTIFIED. HAD you read that posting and others you would not have thought that I was worried about the legality of the gathering.
    YOURS is an excellent case in point of STUFFING WORDS INTO PEOPLE’s MOUTH when I have EXPLICITLY say that THE LEGALITY OF THE GATHERING IS NOT THE ISSUE.

  156. Limkamput:
    ‘Hello, you also never read my posting. My question to you was: why are you worried whether the gathering is legal or illegal given the circumstances we are in.’

    Why think that I didn’t read your posting? Because I didn’t respond to your question? Come on, the fact that I didn’t respond to this question was simple: THIS IS A QUESTION THAT YOU WOULD NOT HAVE ASKED HAD YOU READ MY POSTING WHERE I SAID THAT THE LEGALITY OF THE GATHERING DID NOT MATTER. I DIDN’T RESPOND TO THIS QUESTION BECAUSE IT SHOULDN’T HAVE ARISEN IN THE FIRST PLACE, HAD YOU CONDUCTED THE DISCUSSION RESPONSIBLY – READ BEFORE RESPONDING.

  158. Limkamput said:
    ‘Ok, I will make it very simple for you: I defiantly said that the gathering is NOT illegal, happy now?’

    This shows that you’re not interested in a rational discussion over this issue. In a rational discussion, we won’t say things like ‘I defiantly insist on this, happy now?’ In a rational discussion, we say things like ‘I don’t agree with you. I still think that X is Y, because P, Q, R….You have raised, L, M, N, but I think these suggestions are problematic because of E, F, G…’

    If you just want to win an argument. OK, you win every point. If you just want to insist on your view no matter what. OK, all your views are correct. HAPPY NOW?

  160. When you don’t understand other’s argument or can’t engage rationally with it, just say that the other person is showcasing his ‘hollow sophistication’. What a cheap way to win an argument.

  161. Please go back to the beginning and read thru’ again what you wrote. If you are happy that what you tried to convey have been completely misunderstood, so be it. I am no longer interested in your twists and turns. But you will not hear the last of me. I will continue to do what I have been doing. There are too much of baloney here that has gone on unchallenged. If you think you are rational and refined, I urge you to think again.

  162. Hisham said: ‘Whatever you want to think and say about it, I will defiantly say that the kris ritual is right and will defiantly do it year after year until you get desensitised. Happy now?

    This is a spirit of irrationality par excellent.

  164. An undergraduate student studying mathematics in my university (University of Cambridge) is called ‘mathematician’. Those studying BA in philosophy are called ‘philosophers’. The term philosopher is not a self-imposed term. Given that I’m a PhD student in philosophy of science, my department, professors, and friends call me a philosopher, just like they call my friends who study mathematics a mathematician.
    You just like to attack people without taking fact into consideration.

  166. “dawsheng, I have left you alone thus far. If you want to take side, you better know the full story first. I don’t label others stupid and talking cock for nothing.”

    OK, fair enough! But out of curiousity, if you don’t label others stupid and talking cock for nothing then what it is for?

  167. Hmm, a Cambridge Phd student in philosophy. So what are you trying to impress. This is precisely what i meant earlier – engaging in polemics that are irrelevant and inconsequential. Honestly, can you expect everyone to knows your Cambridge tradition? To study a BA in mathematics called himself a mathematician is too much for me. So also is a BA in philosophy. May be Cambridge is special, or may be many of these institutions are just living on past glory.

  168. The act of calling oneself humble is itself not a humble act. Therefore, the act of stating that oneself is humble defeats that statement itself. Such statements are called ‘self-referentially incoherent statements’.
    However, the act of calling oneself a philosopher (even if it is a self-glorifying term rather than a label for a professional status) does not involve any self-defeat. ‘Philosopher’ means ‘lover of wisdom’. One who says that she is a lover of wisdom does not mean that she is not a lover of wisdom.

    So you’re comparing apples with oranges.

  172. When you attack someone based on what you don’t know, can you defend yourself by saying ‘can you expect everyone to know …’?

    No one expects you to know anything. It is actually quite simple. When you don’t know why someone calls himself X, don’t attack LAH! When you want to attack, make sure you get the fact right first.

  173. No, I am not comparing apples and oranges. Your argument is in fact oxymoron. So you are a lover of wisdom because you claim you are a philosopher. But how do you know the “wisdom” that you love is indeed wisdom.

  175. The discussion is not meant to impress anyone. The discussion is meant to show that your accusation of Jeffrey is wide of the mark because your comments have overlooked his careful considerations. I have not used any technical philosophical terms or theories here. I have just been trying to argue plainly and rationally that Jeffrey’s point is not as stupid as what you said it was.

  176. Limkamput, I also beg your undestanding that we all have different views, and when you disagree you can beg to differ, politely. Some of us here may not be as smart as you, and you shouldn’t be surprise about that. You know what I mean?

  178. OK, I give up. You’re not interested in rational discussion. I humbly bow out. You’ve won every point. Congratulations! You should be a Harvard professor. I hope I can do a post-doc research with you in a few months’ time.

  181. please dont think too highly of cambridge, oxford and harvard ok. JK is also from oxford. I am just a kampung boy, had my early education in an attap chinese school, and later manage to study in one local (may be to you) no standard university. happy now

  184. limkamput, I agree with your point on the gathering. When it comes to Jeffrey’s postings, I just skip them, for my own reasons. Thats my choice.

    But I think you guys arguing here are digressing from the main point, which is the brave act of many malaysians who behaved totally responsibly and did no damage. i cant say the same for the police.

    Lets allow others to commend and praise them.

  185. How about having another Yellow gathering in Ipoh and invite His Highnesses Raja Nazrin, and Sultan Azlan Shah?

    And we give our memorandum from the rakyat to them? They have been the most vocal about the state of our judiciary etc. Lets keep up the momentum!

  188. thinks the most important is to have action then inaction.
    There are consequences to both – one means you like something to change, other means you can accept status quo. the means to achieve the change may or may not be gazetted but it’s always the first step

    so everybody take a deep breath and set ego aside and consider…..

  190. I have to congratulate Bersih for yesterday. The rain, the massive action againts it, and they pulled it off.

    I also have to congratulate Malaysians who participate. I am a cynical one and to see Malaysian come together and peacefully voice their opinion, even if its with leadership of historically tainted Anwar, gives hopes that Malaysian still hold certain principle dear. It gives one hope for the future if not our generation then at some point.

    Coming after the UMNO GA where they still pandered to narrow and small minded interest, today gathering says a lot about Malaysian indepedence from political cynics like the likes of KJ.

    Its not the likes of KJ and Hissamuddin this country future belongs but those who have the courage yesterday…

  191. It’s 8.25 pm here in the U.S. Malaysia made prime time news on FOX at 8.00 pm – with Anwar Ibrahim in it.

    Had there been a public demonstration without the FRU and their water cannons and tear gas, it would not have made the news – let alone prime time.

    But thanks to Abdullah Badawi and his gang, the world saw and took notice of what happened on November 10.

  193. Mr Duplicity was challenged by the rakyat, lost all credibility. He is now a great liability to UMNO, …finished!!!

    But do we see any “batangs” left in UMNO, able to stand up to him and his No.2 ? Maybe they are all in the cemetery!

  194. “But thanks to Abdullah Badawi and his gang, the world saw and took notice of what happened on November 10.”

    But Bersih haven’t achieved anything yet, so far they have only successfully handed over the petition to the Agong. But what we can expect from the Agong next or should we expect the Agong to do something after ten of thousands of Malaysians braved the storm just to sent him a message? If nothing came out of yesterday’s rally? Are we going to the street once more? Are we then going to appeal and force the Agong to do something? Maybe Agong felt 100,000 are too few? Should Bersih organize another rally which involves 300,000 or 500,000 people or more through out the country? A week from now we should know the truth about Agong.

  196. Yes, I think we can get ever bigger crowds. Let’s do another one in January when the thieves raise the petrol prices. Then another one when they raise the tolls. Then another one when they appoint a dubious Chief Justice. Heck, we have plenty of reasons to repeat our peaceful marches.

  197. The mainstream press is so pathetic. No reports or pictures of the gathering from the English and Malay papers. The Star quotes the police as saying that there were 4,000 protesters. This Hitlerian approach will end in tears for the BN thieves.

  202. Hmmmm Damned it AAB and All his cronies!!

    Never trust AAB and All the UMNO cronies! They are All
    Thieves stealing All the Malaysians’ fortune!!

    AAB is a [deleted] who had just condemned The
    Democracy In Malaysia!! AAB had failed the people of
    Malaysia and His duty as a Good PM!!

    He Must step down Now!!! Shame on You as Malaysia PM!!

  205. I can’t help notice the exchanges between the scumbag limkamput and a brilliant scholar like Lee Wang Yen.

    I’m familiar with your name Lee, because you did come on to this blog not too long ago. I think you’re among the youngest to be doing a Ph.D. and in Cambridge and as Malaysians, you made us proud.

    Don’t let scumbags like this limkamput intimidate you. This blog would be all the poorer without your contribution. I read what he said about another commentator on an earlier thread. Limkamput is the classic asshole.

    Just ignore him!

  206. “…//…I’m familiar with your name Lee, because you did come on to this blog not too long ago. I think you’re among the youngest to be doing a Ph.D. and in Cambridge and as Malaysians, you made us proud…//…” – DarkHorse

    FYI, Lee Wang Yen is currently a PhD student at the Department of History and Philosophy of Science, University of Cambridge, completing his PhD thesis in abductive arguments for scientific realism. His research interests include confirmation theory, Bayesianism, inductive and abductive inferences, theories of justification, and the implications of these issues for scientific realism in the philosophy of science, and natural theology and religious epistemology in the philosophy of religion. He is also interested in metaphysics, philosophy of language, philosophical logic, philosophy of mind, and philosophical theology. He has published in journals since his undergraduate years.

    Well thanks for the clarifications in this thread Wang Yen, hope the above is accurate, and you don’t mind. I associate with DarkHorse’s comments that “this blog would be all the poorer without your contribution”…. :)

  208. Pingback: Mr Low Thia Kiang did not fulfil his national duties as an opposition MP « Anti-WP Coalition: It’s time to stop the WAYANG, WP !

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