Today’s Star “PKR leaders want Zul to explain” carried the following report with regard to the continuing fallout from the storming and disruption of the Bar Council forum on “Conversion to Islam” by demonstrators in Kuala Lumpur last Saturday:
In SEREMBAN, state DAP deputy chief and Senawang assemblyman P. Gunasekaren said he wants the police to charge the demonstrators.
He said the police should have arrested them rather than allow them to enter the Bar Council office, which was private property.
“It is sad that the police allowed them to dictate terms. The demonstrators should be arrested and detained under the Internal Security Act for stoking racial sentiments,” he said.
I have checked with Gunasekaren and he has denied that he had made the remark about the ISA detention attributed to him.
DAP stand for the repeal of the nefarious detention-without-trial Internal Security Act is clear. All ISA detainees should be released immediately or be charged in court to avail them of an opportunity to defend themselves in an open trial.
We disagree with the demonstrators though we respect their right to protest against the Bar Council forum, which must be done peacefully and civilly.
However, what is unacceptable is the mob rule where demonstrators threatened to storm and a few stormed the Bar Council auditorium and disrupted the forum under the protection of the police!
It is sad that for the past five days, not a single word had been said by the Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi, Deputy Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Najib Razak and the Home Minister, Datuk Seri Syed Hamid Albar to deplore the uncivil and irresponsible conduct of those who had taken the law into their hands to storm (also those who threatened to storm) and disrupted a lawful meeting in a private premise.
Have the lawless become the law in Abdullah’s Malaysia?
When is the Police and the Attorney-General going to uphold the law and act against the lawless?
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My Facebook supporters page.
I am glad Guna denied that, and hope he didn’t really say that!! Otherwise, another hairline crack in the PR’s trust amongst all of us.
Now the PM has to answer several other questions as well, like the proposal to admit 10% non Malays into Uni Tec. Mara.
What has MCA and MIC got to say?
Anything that happens in Malaysia now can be “politically motivated”….sad…
It just shows how people abuse & take advantage of everythings…
Politics….one of the hardest game in the world….could make into Olympics next time? heheh :P
What Lah is irrelevant
@badcliq
“Politics….one of the hardest game in the world….could make into Olympics next time?”
Then Malaysia will be top in the medal list! And also record holder for all events!
I am still waiting for the non malay BN leaders to speak out. This is the time.
SPEAK NOW BEFORE YOU ARE SPOKEN OUT BY THE PEOPLE AS TRAITORS TO YOUR OWN PEOPLE. you cannot remain subservient to UMNO like a donkey treading behind monkey. The UMNO leader who distrupted the forum called attendees ‘pigs’. Thats makes you non malay BN leaders bigger pigs. Is it OK?
the message to malaysian is simple.
VOTE BN OUT.
start with permatang pauh.
we should not celebrate national day. instead we should mark non independence day by wearing black on 31st as proposed by some previously
The forum could NOT have come at a less inopportune time.
For goodness sake, let the forum and its ensuing entanglement die a natural death, for now. Hearken to the old adage about the chap who fought and ran away but lived to fight another day.
Playing into the hands of the Evil Empire at this critical time of our crusade would cause Pakatan Rayat irreparable structural damage. For the love of God, give them no reason to use the Religion as a ground to gather and attack us.
Leave Zul alone. Now is not the time.
I am surprise that the BN government didn’t send out the FRU and the whole nine yards including water canon trucks to protect the public from this protest.
How do we expect the lawless Umnoputras to deplore the uncivil and irresponsible conduct of the mob who had taken the law into their hands?
When UMNO members commit an offence which is in UMNO’s interest, they will not be prosecuted, e.g. demo by UMNO Malays in Penang when Guan Eng became Penang chief minister, demo in Terengganu when Ahmad Said was selected to be the MB, TDM in Lingam Video Tape scandal etc.
Apparently it is a privilege for UMNO members to commit an offence to enable UMNO achieve the things that it wanted.
politicians are always like that, deny deny deny…
remember the infamous bocor when the MPs denied saying it
remember the infamous “johnson clap” in parlimen and deny deny …
just admit lar …. isn’t it proud to confess it like CSL….
A fall out indeed!
“I have checked with Gunasekaren and he has denied that he had made the remark about the ISA detention attributed to him.”
Gunasekaren must sue the Star, if not I won’t believe him.
Those BN component party leaders who remain SILENT to THE SPITEFUL, UNCOUTH, LOUTISH AND RACIST BEHAVIOUR of the MOB and the THREAT TO STORM THE PREMISES if their demand is not met shows THEY ARE SCARED of the top UMNO leaders who are behind the sinister fiasco that took place at the forum.
Worse still is their continued silence at the call of some in UMNO to use the ISA on the organizers of the forum.
If at all any action is to be taken it should be on the leaders of the mob who had no business to be there inciting the followers to commit sedition and violence.
Action should also be taken on the police officer incharge of the police contigent who had not only failed to disperse the mob but also condoned their behaviour.
Why are the PDRM so partisan when it comes to illegal rallies and gatherings? Some peaceful rallies are brutally dealt with baton charges, tear gas and water cannons while the other violent ones are mollycoddled?
The startling discovery outside the forum was 2 bottles of petrol/kerosene which were meant to be used as incendiary bombs.
Have the police forensic unit lifted finger prints off the bottles? If the members of the mob had been finger-printed, then it would have been eazy to match the prints with the one taken off the bottles.
Such an action would have driven home the point to the mobsters not to trifle with the police. More importantly they would have successfully nabbed the culprit/culprits.
Why didn’t the police do their duty to safeguard people and property? Are they encouraging terrorist activity when such devices had been thrown at the Bar Council President’s previous house?
The police seem to be at their best throwing up roadblocks and investigating alleged sodomy cases while the rakyat is at the mercy of thugs,robbers, snatch thiefs, rapists and murderers.
The IGP and AG should have their priorities right.
The leaders should not abdicate their duties for political expediency.
Dear YB & All
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You all have forgotten again and yet again and yet again. This country, from bottom to top, EVERYTHING is about racial based and also the supreme religion of Islam.
Which side you think the police is on ??
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Last time was POLIS DI RAJA MALAYSIA, now is POLIS RAJA DI MALAYSIA.
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dawsheng Says:
Today at 18: 18.01 (10 minutes ago)
“I have checked with Gunasekaren and he has denied that he had made the remark about the ISA detention attributed to him.”
Gunasekaren must sue the Star, if not I won’t believe him
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Yes, I don’t like it, but I must agree with dawsheng.
YAB Guna must pursue to clear such allegations made by the mainstream media. Otherwise this would be a -ve impact on DAP & P-R. Hope he is doing it while we “speak”…
As citizens we have the right to demand that the PM explain the doube standards showed by the police when the malays went on violent verbal protest.
The indians were water cannoned and tear gased, whereas the malays were not even properly restrained from entering the premises where the forum was held. This is an utmost hypocrisy and unfair treatment of malaysians!
And the worst of it all, none of these so called ministers are briefing the public of the seriousness of these issues. Lawless customize as you go government…time to dissolve it and get a new face on board as soon as possible. Sep 16th let it be!
Arising from the forum and Uitm, the views expressed are totally opposite with malays versus nonmalays. dont expect the malays to be open minded, rational, generous, liberal, civilsed to admit they were wrong in the protest and willing to accept nonmalays into Uitm. they want all their special malay privileges and ketuanan melayu. in short they want all the cake and eat it at the same time. dont question their rights and might no matter how irrational and uncivilised. pdrm will protect them. how disgusting.
Check this out:
Clarification on “ISA statement”
I received a call from MP for PJ Utara Sdr Tony Pua last night informing me that there are a lot of attacks on the DAP by many bloggers over the “statement” by DAP NS Deputy Chairman, Sdr P Gunasekaren which was reported by The Star online (reports attached below). The report quoted Sdr Guna as calling on the police to invoke ISA against the demonstrators.
I have immediately called up Sdr Guna to clarify the matter and he denied making the statement and said he was misquoted. Guna and I went to the The Star’s office in Seremban this afternoon and spoke to the reporter who covered the event yesterday. The reporter admitted that he misinterpreted the statement and a correction over the confusion will be reported in The Star tomorrow. In actual fact, a group of DAP NS leaders went to lodge a police report yesterday over the threat by Minister of Home Affairs Datuk Seri Syed Hamid Albar to use ISA against the forum organizers. The report also called on the police to act against the demonstrators who disrupted the forum.
I would like to reiterate that the DAP’s position on ISA has always been consistent that we call for the total abolishment of the Act. We never agreed to use ISA against anyone, not even to our political opponents or extreme views that we disagreed with such as those who disrupted the Bar Council forum. We believe that there are adequate laws to deal with them. As such, the so-called “statement” by DAP NS Deputy Chairman to call for the use of ISA is inaccurate and was misquoted.
I hope this clarification will clear the confusion over the statement and I hope those who criticized the “statement” will publish my clarifications too.
Thank you.
Loke Siew Fook
DAP NS Chairman
http://lokesiewfook.blogspot.com/2008/08/clarification-on-isa-statement.html
Sometimes I wish statements to the press be made ONLY be senior DAP leaders. The other should shun the reporters. Need I tell you why?
its getting very polarised. even Star is stoking the fire. the short and long of it is that the malays have the voice and all the rights. nonmalays are second/third class citizens without any voice and any rights. just look at the recent events where nonmalays rights to voice and discuss have been trampled on.
It is another case of very clear UMNO instigated attack, UMNO can take laws into their own hands, where as other races or parties cannot.
UMNO wanted racial disharmony, UMNO do not want to see all the races join hands as when they do, there is no more role for the UMNO bunch to play.
Please work together to kick them out so that there will be hope for Malaysia, for our children and all Malaysian.
The Malaysian police had lost the respect of all right thinking Mlaysians.The day they use water cannons on 4 young Indian girls who only wanted to give PAK LAH a rose on velentine,s day…
Is this the police force we need..I was taken aback at what Syed hamid said.
“” He had issued a dirrective that all exhibits must be kept under lock and key. If evidence still goes missing after this , then we will take action againts those responsible””.
Now i know that all police exhibits are just left in the open.Now i also know that the two reported cases is just the tip of the ice berge.
So long as ISA is still the law of the law, I think it is not very wrong to use it. Fed up lah.
Talking about the Star, it is not just a government regulated newspaper, it is a vested interest and crony controlled newspaper.
speaking of suing newspaper, remeber CMF whose career destroyed by vernacular paper which reported those who vote oppos will have may13 recurring. CMF denied it (obviously it’s true she din say that) – she only referring election 1969 where all mcas were withdrawn from cabinet. and u ppl still believe cmf did utter may13 repercussion.
same too with lge vs ex malacca cm, after lge in jail the girl confessed that the ex-cm did not do anything to her. whether true or not i donno.
so, whether this dap is true or not, i’ll still presume he indeed utter this remark unless he organized a PC to clarify this. speaking of suing, mp of pju said wanted to sue CMF for defaming his ex-company, until today still no development, ape macam, cakap tak serupa bikin….
so to prove this dap did not mention isa, sue the paper,
melurian the UMNO statistician, what if the paper publishes a correction and an apology ? Don’t say you donno.
here rights, there rights !!
we only want human rights.
equal rights, fair rights.
They should charge the PDRM for allowing the mob to tresspass.
No need to kick a fuss over what YB Guna said.
He must haave meant “give them the taste of their own medicine, the stricter dose of the ISA”
I am glad to read that YB Guna has denied making that dreadful statement. He should be more careful when speaking to reporters from the MSM. Being a first term state rep, he has much to learn in how to handle these chaps from MSM. They can destroy his career if he’s not careful. I agree with Mr. Smith that all press statements should be made by senior DAP leaders.
BTW, YB Guna is the rep for my area (Seremban Gdn/Seremban Forest Hts) and I have yet to see him visit my area (on a Sunday) at least.
tarik lesen publication dia
setidak2nya gantung 1 minggu
sekadar untuk YB LKS JA … betul ke atau sekadar cakap tapi tidak bertanggungjawab. Kalau nak guna ISA untuk Islam OK tapi kalau untuk HINDRAF atau DAP zalim. Apa kebendanya ni …
Yb,
Pak Lah did vouch for a democratic country where we could exercise our democratic right within the confine of the law in our Country.
Well the Bar Council like a fool falls into his trap and organize a so called forum and testing the nerves of the Muslim…..
Our Royal Police is the real culprit to the whole forum…. Why do they allow the protesters to enter the premises??? I am really surprised that they cannot control the crowd??? Where is the special elite force that ‘capture’ Anwar?? (missing in action..???)
I could imagine how the crowd would behave if they sight the special elite force…. they all would run away because they do not like to be treated like Anwar!!!
Another problem is the lawyers themselves….. Who do they think they are ???? Please do not use the Bar Council to voice your opinions… If you are really interested in the democratic process… please join PKR, DAP. or PAS and overthrow the BN democratically via election…
Don’t be a busy-body… you are better off doing your advocate $$ Solicitor works … let the politicans handle this situation… they are more shrewd and cunning as far as politic is concerned… Better licks the boots of your Bosses…
We are suppose to heal the wound of 308…. until now all of you is still talking politic.. politic.. politic …. What a shame …
I am suprise that they didn’t send in the 20 FRU that was at the BMC. These 20 FRU could have strike fear in the demostrator because they can beat someone up with the lillest of provocation.
Where is the PDRM especially the 20 from BMC when we need them. Only in Boleh-land.
Yes, bystander, It was me who proposed that all Pakatan supporters and supporters of the Bar Coucil Forum that was illegally distrupted should gather at another part of the city in the morning of merdeka ….everybody wearing black … to siginify there’ no merdeka’.
It would be good if we can cast black cloud over the Government’s false merdeka celebrations..
the problem today is, the police is the durian and the people are the watermelon …
The catholic,s in house news paper THE HERALD has been given a show cause letter by the home minister.
The only reason i can see is, because once the the HERALD is ban. The court case which the CATHOLIC CHURCH had taken against the HOME MINISTER,will be null and void.
By doing this, the UMNO led BN GOVERNMENT can save face.Even in the Jewish HOLY BOOK “” THE WORD ALLAH IS USED IN REFERENCE TO GOD””
should be more tactful & more sensitive when making statements in future.
p/s: pakatan rakyat should start campaigning in east malaysia in preparation for the next ge …..east malaysia is already way behind its counterpart west malaysia by 20-25yrs in terms of development……pakatan , teach the bn of east malaysia a lesson……….
Sorry I don’t think it is big thing (all these fuss by some bloggers) whether DAP’s P Gunasekaren said that the demonstrators should be arrested and detained under the Internal Security Act for stoking racial sentiments.
Well anyway fine if the reporter misunderstood, and admitted it but even otherwise so what?
There are so many calls by those who would side the unruly demonstrators for Bar Council president Ambiga Sreenevasan to be detained under ISA. So what if by way of retort P Gunasekaren said that the unruly demonstrators should be the ones arrested and put under ISA instead? I don’t take that as meaning P Gunasekaren deliberately wanted to contradict DAP’s stand against the ISA in favour of its repeal.
,
The critical issue is that which was reported in NST today, which I here quote :
“Pas has warned that it would not be part of any new Federal Government formed by Pakatan Rakyat if the number of non-Muslim members of parliament outnumbered that of Muslim MPs.
The matter was brought up by Pas president Datuk Seri Abdul Hadi Awang at the Penang Pas convention here on Sunday.
State Pas Youth chief Mohd Hafiz Mohamed Nordin said Abdul Hadi received full support from the delegates when he announced the party’s stand. He said the state Pas Youth supported Abdul Hadi’s stand. “It is our hope that Pakatan Rakyat will continue to protect the interests of Muslims as is enshrined in the Federal Constitution.
“We hope this will be so if the Pakatan Rakyat goes on to form the Federal Government after Sept 16.” (Unquote)
See link : http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Wednesday/National/2319826/Article/index_html
How come no bloggers & no leaders of DAP or PKR question NST whether this report is true?
What PAS warned – which I’m sure its true since no one contradicts it – is a decisive blow to the Pakatan Rakyat union, a flagrant breach of the agreed principles of the common manifesto validating everything that Lee Wang Yen and I had argued before in previous threads (before 8th March) that PAS had not only not abandoned its theocratic ambitions but using taqiyya on the Pakatan Rakyat to achieve its objectives faster, and if PR did not go along with it, then, with the no. of seats won from non mulsim votes, explore combining with UMNO under the cover of Malay Unity talks.
YB,
DAP’s P Gunasekaren’s alleged contradiction of DAP’s principles on ISA is but a small thing but DAP’s contradiction of its own principles in continuing to collaborate with PAS when they said a thing like that as reported in NST and not rebutting what Hadi said goes against the core of its principles and cannot be defended or explained at all (except in terms only of political expedience in pretending all is well just to go along so as not to upset PR’s unity for Permatang Puah!)
Public will vote for Anwar to be PM. King will choose PAS Dato’ Seri Tuan Guru Abdul Hadi Awang. If this be the case why vote? This Happened in Terenganu it will happen again.
demonstration is only legal for umno goons. Rememebr the famous SIL storming the US embassy? Well who can forget that rite? The ape like character.
Oh where are the F (r) U?
Fly WAU la!
Well, at least everyone agreed that the federal constitution should stay as it is. I have no problems with protecting the special rights of the Malays, but I certainly hope that Malays are not confused about the meaning of corruption.
“DAP’s P.Gunasekaren’s alleged contradiction of DAP’s principles on ISA is but a small thing but DAP’s contradiction of its own principles in continuing to collaborate with PAS when they said a thing like that as reported in NST and not rebutting what Hadi said go es against the core of its principles and cannot be defended or explained at all (except in terms only of political expedience in pretending all is well just to go along so as not to upset PR’s unity for Permatang Puah!). Jeffrey addressing YB on PAS position according to NST report.
You are absolutely right Jeffrey and DAP’s silence would certainly be taken as compliance and therefore would go smack on against its own principles as well as those agreed in the common manifesto that brought them in the first place
to fight BN.
What Lee Wang Yen says about taqiyya is now about to go on full display if it is not already on,and to think that some of us here have ridiculed him is a case not unlike that of Galileo,only difference is Galileo has to pay with his life for uttering the truth.
There is no point Malays unite to protect Islam but at the same time, in order to protect Islam, they are perpetuating corruption practices among muslims, especially those in UMNO, not only Islam will be tainted, Malays will suffer as hell.
All the best to PAS!
All fair mided people can’t help but see clearly that the Police & AG are in fact serving the interests of UMNO instead of the people of Malaysia. Likewise the EC and the ACA. Sigh!
Two wrongs do not make a right. Either you’re against or for ISA. I think Gunasekaran realised it when it’s too late. It is downright foolish to call for ISA to be abolished and then turn around and call for ISA detentions.
ISA is violence against human beings. Our YB Sdr Lim was its victim twice over. Under no circumstances should PR political philosophy ever embrace ISA. “Bodily and verbal violence is not virtuous conduct by any religious measure. It is only too easy for me to react to the anger demonstrated last weekend with anger of my own. But anger begets anger.” When you have finished reading all the comments here, you are welcome to read Slow to Anger at http://ongohing.wordpress.com/
I think those who led the protest as well as those who organized the forum despite being warned not to do so, should be put in the police lock-up for 24 hours together so they could do to each other what we could not do to them!
Two wrongs sometimes would be the right thing to do.
The demonstrator should have been arrested for assault and unruly public behaviour. There is a video showing them to have slapped and pushed people around. Even if its an open forum, the property is private and so conduct is subject to the wishes of the property owner that had a right to eject any of the participants for disorderly conduct.
The police failure most of all is the protection of private property rights. The police is basically saying if you are an Islamist, you can go into private property and behave whatever you want…
The Bar Council forum on Saturday should have been allowed to proceed, said the PAS Research Centre.
“A small group of us met to discuss the forum and we were unanimous that it should have been allowed to proceed. There are valid reasons for such a forum,” said Dr Dzulkifli Ahmad, the centre director, in an interview.
“As was emphasised to us by International Islamic University constitutional law expert Dr Abdul Aziz Bari and Hanifah Maidin, the head of PAS legal bureau, Article 121(1A) of the Federal Constitution when passed had not envisaged the circumstances that could arise, for example, the impact on people of other faiths embracing Islam.
“We don’t see the forum as non-Muslims encroaching into theological matters. The underpinning reason was for the legal, technical and procedural lacuna created by Article 121 (1A) to be ironed out in earnestness and intellectual integrity.
… “We thought that after the March election, we had proven that we could manage dissent intellectually and discuss issues without getting emotional.
“We regret Saturday’s incident. There are some issues that should be discussed behind closed doors but this was just to plug the loopholes.” [The Star]
Every time a faction in PAS comes up with a sensible and logical statement, some other faction in PAS comes up with a provocative and stupid comment viz. Hadi’s comment that PAS will have to review its role within PR if there are more non-Muslim MPs than Muslim MPs in the future. Helloooooo Hadi, what have you been smoking ? Even if ALL non-Muslim candidates get elected to Parliament, there still will be a majority of Muslim MPs, so why bring up a theoretical scenario that does not exist ?
I suggest that we should just let PAS implode, and have the fanatical faction join UMNO, while the moderate faction just get absorbed into PKR.
Now that Be End has chosen a state assemblyman to contest against DSAI. What will …MCA, Gerakan and MIC say about their candidate? Remember they accused DAP reps of being greedy for holding both state and parliamentary representative post!
Poorah!!! Go yo hell MCA, Gerakan and MIC.
PAS is undergoing some internal adjustments. Hopefully those in the party would finally see sense to adjust themselves to fit into the greater Pakatan ideal.
The development we see is to some extent inevitable although the manner in which the objection was executed is really distasteful and wrong. Its a democratic ideal we are pursuing. Let them voice their unhappiness.
Remember we are in the era of reality tv shows and fear factor is a big deal to a lot of people. Hammering them would only heighten the fear factor and hence their satisfaction. So these people must be handled differently – unlike in the past where they would simply be arrested and locked up.
They must be engaged. They must be reasoned with. I am sure some of them are prepared to listen. Of course, if they are stupid then a little patience may be necessary. If they are completely stupid, then let them be stupid. This way at least we can win over some of them and let the last category amongst them to remain where they are.
Godfather, As I have said before, let’s all the racist and fanatics in UMNO, PKR and PAS join into one party and the rest of us can form another one. WE will see who shall govern this country. Yes, we shall move on. Don’t afraid of backlash. Take disciplinary action against the MP of Kulim Bandar Bahru and pursue UiTM to accept 10% of its students from among non Bumi. These are the right things to do, and people in general will respect our stand. Please learn to understand the non Bumi are not hard up of the 10% university places in UiTM. It is for integration, it is for greater competitiveness of Malaysia, and it is for promoting greater understand and tolerance among we Malaysians. All racists, supremacists, fanatics and religious bigots can all go to Timbaktu. We will win. There is no place for third world tribal mentality to exist in this modern world.
Will the bar council sue PDRM for allowing the mob to tresspass into its private premises? I sure hope they do…
If the “fanatical faction” joins UMNO, DSAI’s aspiration to take the govt. by cross overs before year end will be dashed ie will be shelved further down the road to the next election! DSAI fuly appreciates the longer the take over is postponed, the greater the hazard that it will never happen at all, as BN recovers balance gfrom March 8th fiasco to launch a program of sabotage of the PR state governments and leaders…..
Knowing the divisive implications of PAS’s reasserting itself at this juncture – no doubt encouraged by UMNO’s overtures and availability of options to share power – DSAI is keeping very very silent (on PAS’s behaviour in relation to its recent behaviour and public anouncements) as if hiding in a cave refusing to come out to respond to calls from outside asking where he is and stands. DAP leadership is hunkering down more in deference to DSAI in order that his game plan is not sabotaged and ended right now!
There are essentially no 2 factions within PAS as far as trying to achieve the theocratic Islamic state through PKR’s and DSAI’s ticket. They are all agreed on the goal but the timing and strategy, that’s all!
The division between “fanatical” and moderate factions concerns only timing and methods whether with UMNO or PR.
The fanatical side wants to make clear its theocratic agenda and share power now, perceived opportune when overtures are made by UMNO, at its weakest and willing to trade….and the sodomy charges against DSAI still hanging on balance that in worst case scenario will deal a fatal blow to PR if Anwar should fall.
The moderate, on the other hand, thinks it is a trap by UMNO to use PAS to remain in power, still calling all the shots; that PAS cannot leverage as much with UMNO in terms of achieving (or sharing) its goal of gaining political influence and decision making powers in government than if it were to wait a while longer to leverage maximumly on Anwar’desire to bring the BN govt down and be PM with PAS being puppeteer around him, wedging DAP into marginal roles so that its theocratic agenda will not be resisted.
I’m sure Malaysians (whether pro BN or Opposition) were not surprised by the action taken by the PDRM (they are just following what UMNO wanted them to do!).
We are not surprised lah anymore.
Permatang Pauh Voters PLEASE take note!
In every party, there are factions. Even in DAP we can see the hardline faction vs the moderate faction. If the hardline faction in PAS joins UMNO, then we can expect more, rather than less, crossovers. The Sabah and Sarawakian parties, plus the mute parties in Peninsular such as MIC and MCA cannot remain mute any longer under such a scenario.
Yes, Limkamput is correct in saying that we should allow the fanatics to join forces, and let the moderates stay on the other side of the line. Then it is easier for the rakyat to decide one way or the other.
to malaysian who doesn’t understand ISA. Bodowi & his team takes this as an excuse / advantage to use ONLY ON PPL who goes against UMNO / BN / Islam .
we are like living under TYRANT REGIME except that we have nothing to figth with except with our bla-bla-bla mouth.
Musa Hassan especially, should have been seen on TV to warn of demo without permits but what happen ? He slept or his spy team knew nothing about it? So funny – he knows wat PKR & Hindraf ( linking to international terrorists ) do but don’t know about UITM demo !
from my view , he kept quiet bcs not u or i pay his gaji. he has to be obedient to his master so don’t blame him. somehow, i hope & wish he can wake up to become as profession and wise to do what is right and wrong especially he is the head of police in malaysia .
why talk of bumi & religion rights? why not just talk of malaysian citizen rights? what’s so special? can tis UITM morons go claiming the world will treat them with EXTRA Specialty just because they r UITM cum Bumi Muslim? If can, i would like to join them too.
the demo UITM students did, i just hope our future leaders won’t come from this university nor would i encourage my children to enrol into tis Uni. Base on tis demo, it shows that we are selfish & not open to challenges from outside. Tis is not wat i want for my children. The key word to Success In Life Independantly is To Accept Challenges & Failure – tis i doubt that UITM teaches . Wat UITM teaches is – No offer to accept challenges or criticism so we AUTO WIN . ha..ha..ha.
University is for enhancing knowledge and wisedom in which they did the opposite. Let the Uni directors & politicians deal with tis. Be open-minded lah. My child askd me why tis ppl baris shouting like crazy ppl wen i often told her to become smart so that can enter University. Before i could answer her, she said ‘ Bak, bagus jangan bawa saya masuk Uni kalau saya smart sebab i takut boleh jadi gila gila macam mereka semua! ‘ So wat can i say now, u demo morons?
“….think those who led the protest as well as those who organized the forum despite being warned not to do so, should be put in the police lock-up for 24 hours together so they could do to each other what we could not do to them!”…
Well said Undergrad2
JUST ABOLISH ISA.
end of story.
sue each other till thy kingdom come. ambiga and the bar counsel should sue the mob for trepassing and criminal intimidations.
guna should sue the star for false reporting and defamation.
the parents should sue the education minister and deputy minister and the school for criminal defamtion for the racial slur.
karpal should sue hadi – for something.
and btw, shaharizat has pronounced ‘jihad’ on anwar. hello shaharizat – dont disgrace yourself further. i doubt you know the meaning of jihad. you may sue me too.
Adam Yong oh Adam Yong,
bloody good suggestion you have.
At least our courts will not be flooded with just technical procedural issues all the time.
like what undergrad2 stated. ( just lock them up together for 24 hours ) and guess they will be best friends after that.
my dearest taiking, thank you.
i hope shaharizar,( cant spell her name right) or some umno spy read this and relay to her and get her to sue me either in the civil court or syariah court. i am prepared. what jihad is she talking about on a by election in pp. ????????? nonsense.
Adam Yong,
If we strip them of political issues and put them together in close proximity like in a lock-up I believe they will start to behave as malaysians.
They will talk about manchester and liverpool and teh tarik and saman polis.
UMNO is to be blamed for this for practising divisive politics.
like what undergrad2 stated. ( just lock them up together for 24 hours ) and guess they will be best friends after that – Adam Yong
That’s another good suggestion. And Shahrizat being talking nonsense, I agree too. In her legal days, she wasn’t that stupid and I know her, Dr Salleh, husband too – intellectual people. Why slowly she turn out to be moulded into an UMNO shape? She intelligent enough to know the moral rot in UMNO – talk jihad? Isn’t this exactly what we have been saying all the while – making use of some seemingly legitimate koranic word to prop their sagging political fortune? Or is this another case of UMNO blending into the demand of the consumers?
a mr.smith wrote something about ONLY SENIOR DAP leaders should make press statement yesterday.
hello sir ,
mps( POLITICIANS) are supposed to be matured enough to talk the right thing at the right time at the right place to the right crowd. they are not children. if it is a personal view , and not a party view – ok la.
ABOLISH ISA.
dearest taiking,
absolutely agreed with you. i can sponsor kfc for them and some kuachi .
dear oknyua,
thank you my dear. i am afraid shahzat does not understand the meaning of ” jihad”. she must have join some deviated group lately after her loss to beautiful nurul . and start to talk nonsense.
At least to Anwar’s credit he did, on point of principle, state:
1. PKR parliamentarian Zulkifli Noordin, who called on a crowd of angry Muslims to storm the Bar Council building last Saturday, will be asked to show cause; (This is backed by PKR deputy leader Syed Husin Ali who had issued a statement on behalf of the opposition party criticising Zulkifli for his action. “He (Zulkifli) has to be clear that party policies and party decisions must be adhered to,” said Anwar;
2. his regret that certain party decisions were not communicated well to its members;
3. the Bar Council forum should be allowed to proceed.”We have communicated to the Bar Council our views. And PAS had came out with a statement. (Party leader Abdul) Hadi (Awang) had made it quite clear, that we must allow (the forum) … but it has to be close door.
Anwar reiterated that he was in favour of interfaith discussion.
“I have tried to get Muslim leaders to appreciate the fact that we must allow a discussion (on religious issues). If you’re not confident (to discuss the matter), then there’s something wrong with our belief and faith. You must be confident to express, counter and argue. “If you feel that the Muslim representation (at such discussions) is not adequate, not competent (to argue the issues), then you send adequate and competent people there.”
Source : Malaysiakini report filed by editor Steven Gan and K Kabilan | Aug 13, 08 6:16pm.
ABOLISH ISA.
“Yes, Limkamput is correct in saying that we should allow the fanatics to join forces, and let the moderates stay on the other side of the line. Then it is easier for the rakyat to decide one way or the other.” – Godfather
That’s right. It is just part of the process of a democratic country. Two-party system still has a long way to go, free and fair election must come first.
There are many more ways to achieve religious and racial harmony in Malaysia, not necessary by interfaith discussion. It is very important leaders voted into office take the initiative to organize more gatherings among the races in this country. We all have to be real friends again.
Race and religion should not be politicize as there will be no end to such politicking. Talk less and do more.
“Race and religion should not be politicize as there will be no end to such politicking.” dawsheng
My friend, politics and religions have been mixed as delicate inseparable ingredients for – since when – 2 – 3000 years ago. Politics and religion held ancient Egypt together and what I know its politics and religions in the old Nabuchanezzar years. It’s politics and religion in Mongol India, Majapahit Java. Even Japan is politics and religion.
If you think Malaysia is politics and religion, it is wrong. Malaysia is consumerism – give what the consumers want, even at the expenses of politics and religion.
oknyua, that’s right, as Undergrad2 like to say, astute observation.
The Edge carried a story recently about how Syed Mokhtar Albukhary managed to win the Senai airport privatisation contract several years ago over the objections of MAHB and others. Syed Mokhtar, with the assistance of Mamakthir, managed to armtwist Lee Rubber into parting with their rubber land at RM 2.80 per sq ft. The total cost to Syed Mokhtar for acquiring the land, and the airport rights was estimated by the Edge at no less than RM 600 million. 3 years later, Syed Mokhtar now proposes to sell the entire concession to MMC for a price in excess of RM 2 billion.
The moral of the story is simple. Syed Mokhtar is no less a pendatang like most 2nd generation Malaysians. Through his connections with Mamakthir, he manages to squeeze billion dollar deals, which benefit him personally. These billion dollar deals don’t go to the poor Malays. In fact, with the MMC deal, the poor Malays who own MMC shares via Amanah Saham or via PNB get royally screwed. Somehow he has become a malay, and somehow the act of putting everything into his pocket becomes “halal”.
Why is it that the ordinary Malays can keep quiet about such pillaging in the interests of race and religion ?
The den of thieves known as UMNO always hide behind race and religion so that they can continue to do what they do best – steal in broad daylight.
The Edge carried a story recently about how Syed Mokhtar Albukhary managed to win the Senai airport privatisation contract several years ago over the objections of MAHB and others. Syed Mokhtar, with the assistance of Mamakthir, managed to armtwist Lee Rubber into parting with their rubber land at RM 2.80 per sq ft. The total cost to Syed Mokhtar for acquiring the land, and the airport rights was estimated by the Edge at no less than RM 600 million. 3 years later, Syed Mokhtar now proposes to sell the entire concession to MMC for a price in excess of RM 2 billion.
The moral of the story is simple. Syed Mokhtar is no less a pendatang like most 2nd generation Malaysians. Through his connections with Mamakthir, he manages to squeeze billion dollar deals, which benefit him personally. These billion dollar deals don’t go to the poor Malays. In fact, with the MMC deal, the poor Malays who own MMC shares via Amanah Saham or via PNB get royally scr*wed. Somehow he has become a malay, and somehow the act of putting everything into his pocket becomes “halal”.
Why is it that the ordinary Malays can keep quiet about such pillaging in the interests of race and religion ?
Apala Gunasekaran said or didn’t say, whyla make big issue, please remember with Yang berhormat Datu Badawi said when Hindraf went on peaceful strike….BEWARE you indians or i’ll put you under ISA, he threatened and fair enough few of them went under ISA until today belum keluar.
So what hypocrisy is this, gunala ISA as the PM condones for these malay protestors, why double standards? Cannotla fight like Gandhi, too passive people step on your heads.
Better still, Syed Mokhtar’s increase in wealth is not regarded as part of the NEP quota for bumiputras because it is a private deal. His billion dollar profit does not count towards bumiputra ownership figures because it goes into a black hole never to be seen again.
That’s UMNO for you, and the sooner we get rid of these parasites, the better the future will be for our children.
While freedom of speech is something that we should defend, as responsible people we must know when to stop, when not to offend others.What was the goal or intention of Bar Council when they planned the froum on Conversion to Islam?
Was it to vent their dissatisfaction and tell the world that they think Malaysian laws regarding conversion to Islam is unfair?Or maybe they want to say that it is wrong fro Islam to try and stop Muslims from converting to other faiths. Do note that the operative there is ‘try’.
Let us look at the process of conversion to Islam and try to understand how it works.
First we have to understand that Malaysia has a rather peculiar method of dealing with people who want to convert into Islam – we make it hard for people to join the faith.
While I do not personally agree with this I can understand theri rationale, the religious authorities do not want conversion to be a petty and casual decision, they wanto to make sure that the person converting has really changed their faith
Go to any religious department office to tell them that you want to be a Muslim and they will grill you to make sure that you are serious.Even after you have expresed your determination to become a Muslim, they would continue with their probe by telling you all the restrictions of the religion. They will tell you; You can’t eat pork, you can’t drink alcohol, you can’t sleep around, you have to pray five times a day or you will end up in Hell and basically tell you that Islam is quite a demanding faith.
If you still think that Islam is for you after hearing all the restrictions, they make you sit for religious classes so that the potential convert would be better prepared for life as a Muslim.
To give you an impression of how rigorous the religious education is, most converts enter the faith better equipped than a born Muslim who goes through the normal education system.
If their best effort to persuade you to reconsider your decision is nto successful and you manage to endure months of religious classes then they will accept your two shahadah, or proclamations of faith.
I do understand there may be difficulties when it comes to minors but the legislation and case history is quite clear, no one can make the decision to convert until they have come of age, in the case of children, parents can make the decision for them.
If you don’t agree parents cannot make decision on faith then you also have to accept that parents cannot make decisions on behalf of their children on anything else and where would we end up if this is the case.
Back to the conversion process.
I don’t agree with this rigorous screening because I think people should be allowed to enter the faith by just expressing intent and then making the proclamation but the authorities figured if it is going to be hard to leave, they want to make sure that you are truly convinced before admitting you into Islam.
Once the convert enters the faith they fall under the jurusdiction of the syariah court and they remain there until the court release them from their jursidiction. That is the law of the country.
While the Bar’s executive council may think that the law governing conversion into Islam is not to their liking, they should probably for a committee and find out if Malaysian lawyers think this is a problem.
Just because a few people in office don’t like the law, it does not mean that most of the legal profession agree with them.
If they find that the majority of Malaysian lawyers do not agree with the law then they should make a representation to the Minister responsible. Since Zaid Ibrahim is chummy with the Bar council these days, it should not be a problem.
Once the matter has been brought up, let the minister do his work and bring it up with the cabinet and wait for your cue from there.
It is likely that cabinet will decide that this is a matter that does not bear public discussion and I agree with them.
The issue of conversion to Islam should be determined by Muslims and no one else because I am sure that no one would like Muslims to have a forum on the validity of the holy trinity or have the Malays old a forum on the rights of non Malays in Malaysia.
Who is to say the bar council’s topic for discussion is more valid than the two that I suggested?
The only thing we know for sure, these are sensistive subjects and we really do not want it to be discussed in public.
The Bar Council President is showing surprising shallowness by insisting that the forum goes ahead, as if she does not realise or perhaps does not care about who she offends.
Malays, rightly or wrongly, do not take issues that that concern their faith lightly. Conversion does not form the core of their concerns but it does mark the outer limits of their teolerance. I know no Muslim family that would allow a family member from leaving the religion without fighting it to the end. Conversion away from islam is probably the worst thing that could happen to a Muslim.
Conversion into Islam is celebrated as the end of ignorance, it is a happy occasion.
The thing is we understand if you want to convince your family members not to become a Muslim but don’t put your nose in the administration of Islam.
This is really not a subject for open discussion.
This person Kanda is really talking cock. First of all, the forum was not an “open” forum in the true sense of the word. Attendees have to register and pay a fee. Yes, it was open to the public in terms of attendance but only upon registration. Once the forum commences, the doors were closed.
The problem is that once there was knowledge that such a forum was going to take place, these extremists were never going to allow it to happen. Tomorrow if there were 10 of us going to have a roundtable discussion on the same subject, these guys will find a way, with the connivance of the police, to disrupt it.
Certain people in PAS have said that the forum should have been allowed to happen. Anwar has said that the discussion should have been allowed. Who are you to say that it is really not a subject for open discussion ? What are you so fearful of ? Inability to refute the comments or inability to control your emotions ?
Can we call LAW in the country as Law when not everyone in the country are applied with the same LAW?
I agree Kanda is talking cock.
“I am sure that no one would like Muslims to have a forum on the validity of the holy trinity…”
Firstly, the forum is to discuss the legal obligations when a person converts to Islam. No one is discussing the ‘validity of Islam’. Only the opportunists who want to fan religious sentiments are so quick to jump and claim that this forum is anti-Islam.
“…but don’t put your nose in the administration of Islam.”
Well said Kanda. Again the sentiments of those seeking to use Islam as spring board to get popular support and to fool those who are not so mature and critical in their thoughts. Again no one is telling you how to administer Islam. I think the discussion is on the legal implications of one converting to Islam.
“This is really not a subject for open discussion.”
And i believe this is what was the main purpose of the forum. To gauge the maturity of the Malaysian society is engaging people of different faiths and religion to have a meaningful discussion. And as Kanda has shown, Malaysian society is not yet ready, preferring to hide behind statements of “this subject is not open to discussion”.
katdog Says:
Yesterday at 23: 36.07
I agree Kanda is talking cock.
Kanda has evey right to ‘talk cock’. His cock ups are his to make.
A bunch of weeds tied together can never be as strong as a bunch of bamboo.
So what are u , weeds or bamboo?
only culturally strong values inherent to you developed by your forefathers and his forefathers and his his forefathers gives you the direction and focus of who you are today.
if at some point of time you got misled either due to peer pressure or miseducated and misinformed you shall be that torn and sorry doom of your offsprings future.
Beautifully planned and strong armed executed presented in the manner of limited choices you shall be influenced and bound into admission.
Stricken by natural instinct for food on the table you subdue your forefathers values in return of short term gains.
You have sold your soul and any remains of.
For those who have been to heaven and or hell, please share your expereinces, for those who want to go to these , please get it from the horse mouths , get the original and not second hand information.
OTH
religions also have marketing plans too , their promotions are pepetual , but you have to qualify…..conditions apply….
Wow, got free gift or lot …..and actually yes …..
So spiritually submissions/admissions = materially gain or another form reimbursed.
dont sweep this under the carpet, it is too filt up already, and no more space.