By Farish A. Noor
I have just read the reports on the internet about the goings-on that led to the disruption and early closure of the public forum organised by the Bar Council on Conversion in Malaysia over the weekend. Apart from the other rather offensive remarks that were featured in the various reports that I read, I also chanced upon a rather curious revelation: Apparently during the commotion caused when some of the so-called ‘defenders of the faith’ had entered the room where the forum was being held, there were calls for a certain ‘Babi’ to ‘Balik Cina’.
Now I have checked and double-checked all the photos that are available on the internet and have seen no image that corresponds to the ‘Babi’ in question. Therefore for the sake of academic consistency and objectivity, I am compelled to ask the Bar Council this: Was there a pig in the auditorium where the forum was held? And if so, how could the Bar Council invite a pig to attend a forum that was open primarily for Malaysian citizens (who are overwhelmingly human, as identity papers and passports have not been issued to pigs or any other non-human species as far as I know)
Furthermore I need to ask how the demonstrators knew that the pig (if one was present) was of Chinese origin? Did it carry a Chinese passport, and if so, why was it in KL when the Olympic games were being held in Beijing and the world’s attention was focused there?
(*ed. I can only assume that this was a rather anti-social pig from China who had come to Malaysia to avoid the throngs of tourists who have overtaken Beijing, which would be a sensible thing that I would have done myself, so I confess to having sympathy with this mysterious invisible pig.)
Lest there be any offence to pigs from China, I would like to remind the demonstrators who made that remark that there are enough pigs in southeast asia and that pigs are, in fact, a native species in the region (including Malaysia). To ask this mysterious pig to ‘Balik Cina’ was therefore offensive to say the least, as it overlooks the fact that it could have been a local Malaysian pig and therefore has every right to be in Malaysia. Though what it was doing at the bar council’s forum is anyone’s guess.
Here are some categories of local pigs (genus: Sus, subfamily species: suinea (Latin)) that have shared our very same bumi for centuries:
In Malaysia we have the babi hutan, babirusa (genus: Babyrousa) and wild boar (genus: Sus Scrofa) that have been long-time residents of the peninsula.
In Indonesia, there are also many types of local pigs such as the Sulawesi Babirusa, the Warty pig of Sulawesi (genus: Sus Celebensis), the Timorese Warty Pig (Genus: Sus Timorensis) and the Javanese Warty hog (Genus: sus Verrocosus).
In Vietnam there is of course the Sus Bucculentus, otherwise known as the Indo-Chinese warty pig, while in the Philippines there is the local Sus Cebifrons that hails from the Visayas Islands.
So how dare some people go around making wild allegations about the alleged foreign citizenship and/or origins of a pig that may or may not have been present at the Bar Council forum? To assume the foreign identity and origin of an individual merely on the basis of appearance and behaviour would reek of the highest form of prejudice, and points only to the ignorance of those who simply do not know: PIGS are not foreign to Malaysia or Southeast Asia. They are as localised and normalised as Durians and Corruption in this country.
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My Facebook supporters page.
LKS,
KJ said in Parliament lately: SIAPA “BABI NEGARA” an abbreviation for “BN”. It is indeed shameful for some irresponsible idiots uttered at the Bar Council Forum on “BABI” or “PIGS” subject and these hooligans are really have pig’s brain in their thinking.
Should the idiots called and force all BABIs to “Balik China”, we believed that the entire economy and financial system will collapse. It is unwise for such irresponsible “Otak Babi” protesters to voice out racist and animal instint remark against another race like branding Indian origin as Ular by UMNO ADUN Perak. These pig heads are desperators can’t understand the real meanings of the Bar Council Forum on Conversion of Islam issue is to resolve the unresolve problems faced by conversion of non-Muslim to Muslim. Furthermore, it is the freedom of Malaysians to practise their own religions and beliefs regardless of race, creed and culture. Islam is a freedom religion is embraced by people of many tribes and origins including Chinese and Indians people.
In fact, the Chinese population in China embraced Islam many times bigger and larger than the muslims in Malaysia and some nations in Middle East countries. So Islam religion does not belong to the right of one race only. Many Chinese Kelatanese also embraced Islam respect and have no problems with other muslim in Malaysia. Therefore, the crazy protesters who caused trouble and uttered racist remark or animal remark are really shameful and behaved worst than PIG behaviours.
A true Muslim with a kind heart and open mind will never uttered such sinful “BABI” remark and misused Islam religion for their political agendas.
Such unpleasant remark would not have arisen if political parties in Malaysia advocate racial unity and racial co-operation.
pity to pig, why the name of pig always being use to insult other people? Actually pig have big contribution to our human as food and also as pet. Please respect the pig ok? Don’t behave like a unsivilized caveman…
For that person to call a pig to balik Cina is really like telling himself (or herself) to go back to Indonesia for most of them. I like what Farish said about pigs and like our natives in Malaysia, they are more Malaysians than most claim to be.
For someone who has served in the Bar Council before, Zulkifli Noordin, now a Parti Keadilan Rakyat (PKR) Member of Parliament for Kulim Bandar, stands as an utter disgrace to his profession and to all self-respecting Malaysians.
I am still waiting to see what the other elected legislative members of the PKR are going to do about this hot-head.
Where did he get the temerity to tell the 13,000-strong Malaysian Bar what to do?
The PKR must ensure that the candidates it puts up in the next election are not the Zulkifli kind.
Indeed, I appreciate the measured moderation of experienced and wise PKR leaders such as former Professor Dr Syed Husin Ali. This is the stuff of nation builders, not nation wreckers.
If a pig from china was indeed present then I would really be amused. I mean, the chinese government actually issued passport to that pig and our government actually gave that pig entry visa.
And one more thing. Dont even bother to find out who made that remark. As usual he would disclaim knowledge, or claim distortion or misunderstanding or misreporting.
There are plenty of pigs in Bolehland. Unfortunately they don’t show up at seminars or conventions. They hide behind a certain religion and racial rights, and they feed themselves to the spoils until they are really really fat.
We simply call them “fat pigs”.
The remark simply shows the failure of the government in terms of racial unity, despite these races have been staying together on this land long before Merdeka, despite the country is approaching the 51st Merdeka celebration (or should we celebrate?), despite the globalization or shouting out lound the world is flat, it is most disappointing that mentality of such likes still exists.
This is one of the reasons we need a new government.
Dr. Noor attempt at levity is appreciated but I would like to note on something serious that happened AFTER THE FORUM.
In news program on all tv news on the cancellation, they conducted polls and whether the forum should have been conducted AND what struck me was the very divergent results depending on the channel.
We know that our tv channels cater to different audience – that is Media Prima’s core strategy. On NTV7, English and Chinese news, all the polls shows 90% in favour of the open forum. On malay news and talk show, although the questions were somewhat slanted, more than 50% thought the open forum was NOT OK.
It struck me that not we are not only divided by race, religion and language BUT we are divided by what we listen to! We are not listening to the other side, not talking to each other and that is not just in schools and workplace. It occurs to me we are heading to being divided by values itself maybe already there..
What is next, we are divided by our very soul?
Q44. Little Napoleons are the ones ruling Malaysians. (True or False)
“Little Napoleons” sebenarnya yang memerintah rakyat Malaysia. (Betul atau Salah)
Q46. Malaysians hate Pigs and Dogs. Cows are sacred. (True or False)
Rakyat Malaysia benci Babi dan Anjing. Lembu adalah suci. (Betul atau Salah)
Q49. Race and Religious supremacy are preached by satans. (True or False)
Ketuanan bangsa dan ugama adalah dikutbah oleh syaitan. (Betul atau Salah)
Answers at http://patek1472.wordpress.com
Jawapan di http://patek1472.wordpress.com
Farish Noor, well said. But what I really want to read are official statements from DAP and PAS leadership. I have been waiting since yesterday. So far I only read something from the Deputy President of PKR. If nothing is done, I think PR is likely to be BN in the making. Pathetic really.
I must admit this is one of the best and hilarious posts I have ever read by Farish Noor! Well said! :)
Would the said person who called others “babi” say it again and, in doing so, please ask Sarawak and Sabah to drop themselves off from Malaysia.
These two states have been the pain the the necks of Ketuanan Melayu , with its Malay speaking citizens, yet read the bible and go to the most despised place called the Church. Please do us a great favour by removing Sabah and Sarawak away from Malaysia.
Over there they eat roasted pork with XO, Tapai and Tuak. Beside that they watched Inul Daristista on TV (large disk satellite). Say “Sarawakian and Sabahan, balik Borneo dan makan babi.” Please and get Abdullah Ahmad Hj Badawi’s blessings.
By the way arent we chinese decendants of dragon?
Hei brother you got it wrong.
The babi you shooed could be babi bumi tempatan.
Yes indeed we are divided. Can you blame 51 years of unhindered indoctrination as a result thereof. But alas the rakyat is awakening from that slumber as evidence by the effect of the recent political tsunami. The saviour goverment will have to educate and free the minds of the people from this disease. We can attain the reverse if we all work together with love, respect and trust for one another. We the rakyat have no choice but to usher in a new goverment to save us all from falling into the pit.
“Stupid and Ignorant..”
Stop BUTTING the nation
//pity to pig, why the name of pig always being use to insult other people? Actually pig have big contribution to our human as food and also as pet. Please respect the pig ok? //malaysia-united.
You are right. The pig has been maligned by humans.
The Malaysian “babi” (pig) in forum were neither babi hutan, babirusa (genus: Babyrousa) nor wild boar (genus: Sus Scrofa) – real animal pig. Pig here is metaphorical stand-in for his human counterpart which in our cultural contex imputes a sojourner, messy,filthy, greedy, obeseity, crass, disdained and repulsive and more of yellow than pinkish complexioned.
Poor pig is always maligned even in other cultural or sub cultural contexts.
In ordinary English Language, ‘greedy pig is someone given to gluttony. ‘Guinea pigs is exploited for scientific experimentation and facing unknown risks. Road Hog (hog being a kind of pig) is a driver who takes more space than he needs and obstructs those behind. Amongst feminists, ‘chauvinistic pig’ is an outdated, sexist man with patriarchal and conservative combined with traditional opresive attitudes towards women. Only in children lierature, pigs are portrayed extensively as benign – except George Orwell’s ‘Animal Farm’, the pigs is a facist totalitarian leader. In US, underworld jargon describes cops and police officers as “pigs”. In financial stock market, bulls buy stocks, bears exit but pigs get slaughtered!
Hard to find a single metaphorical usage of pig that is not derogatory : what a comprehensive indictment of pigs.
Anyone know “the whole truth” of what happen after the mob leaders enter the room?
WHO make the racist remark? Dr Noordin or that UMNO guy?
I read that Dr Syed Husin said in the Star: “In principle, it is wrong to assert your rights by denying others theirs and doing it forcefully. It should have been done outside the hall peacefully.
“He was exercising his rights but I don’t agree with the way he did it,” he said.
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I just read the above this morning. Dr Syed Husin is right in the first quote. But in the second quote, he backpedals – was Zulkifli Noordin exercising his rights at the expense of others or was the intention of his action acceptable but the way it was done (the storming of the forum) was not right?
This is the kind of confusion of ends and means which many leaders/media people often create, whether consciously or unintentionally.
One famous example is: The NEP’s objective is right but the way it was implemented was wrong. If the wrong method/implementation is so often repeated, then Malaysians should wake up and stop the government/politicians from using wrong methods to justify some Utopian objectives. No wonder our political discussions are full platitudes and so lacking in substance.
Well, what can I say?
Some people just love to hog the limelight.
:(
IF THE “BABI” CAN TALK AND ARGUE IN THE COURT, THEY WILL TELL THE ONE WHO CALLED THEM TO “BALIK CINA” TO LEAVE THEIR LAND AND HABITAT AND GO BACK TO WHEREVER THEY CAME FROM AS THEY WERE HERE EVEN MUCH LONGER THAN HUMAN BEING AS HUMAN BEING WERE MADE BY GOD LATER THAN ANIMALS E.G PIGS!!! SO HOW CAN THOSE WHO CAME LATER ASKED THE ONE WHO WERE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE TO “BALIK”??? DIDNT THIS ANOTHER FORM OF PERSECUTION OF ANIMAL AND THEIR RIGHTS TO LIVE ON EARTH THOUGH THEY MAY NOT LOOKED AND SMELL SO NICE TO SOME SUPREME BEINGS (WHO THOUGHT THAT THEY WERE THE “PUREST” OF ALL BEING), BUT THEY ARE CONSIDERED GOOD EVEN IN THE EYES OF GOD DURING CREATION, SO WHO ARE WE TO JUDGE THE CREATION OF GOD AND CONDEME THEM!!! GOD FORBID!!!
Dear Uncle Kit,
That remark must have come from a racist pig and he was talking about a fellow pig . So , it does not apply to you and me, peace loving fair minded Malaysians no matter what race or religion .
Please do not take offence , in any society , there will always be pigs and people .
what zul noordin did is unpardonable. he should be sacked from PKR if PKR wants nonmalays support. in addition he must be advertised in papers or news bulletins for what he said to embarrass him. he must be held accountable. period.
After 50 years, the same old tune…don’t ever they ever grow up!!
I am quite happy to emigrate (Tun Mamak is thinking of the same, only for a different reason).
I need not have to put up with all these fanatics, uncultured and uncivilized!!!
Quick, set up a royal commission and investigate the immigration and customs dept. Which airline allowed the pig to be flown in to this super clean country? Which immigration and customs officials fell asleep on the job or did the pig grease somebody’s palm? Heads should roll!
Actually, the caller was calling out “Baby” and not “Babi” as was reported since the caller pronounceation was not so good. As for “Balik Cina”, the caller was asking the “Baby” to go along to China to watch Olympics live there!!!
as voltaire says we must defend the right to speak even though we might disagree with what is to be said. malays have no right to strom and stop the forum. this only goes to show that malays still have that fear factor mindset and behave like hooligans. if only they can think and behave be like dr farish noor.
For those who want to see the proof:-
Genesis 1:25 TNIV • Read this chapter
God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:26 TNIV • Read this chapter
Then God said, “Let us make human beings in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, [ Probable reading of the original Hebrew text (see Syriac); Masoretic Text the earth] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
come come, let’s be civilized and industralized. Allah is great. If he is so great, how come he creates pigs ? Or if pigs are not created, then how do they exist ? We all agree that this whole universe and everything in it is created by God.
Dan di antara manusia ada yang berkata: Kami telah beriman kepada Allah dan kepada hari akhirat; padahal mereka sebenarnya tidak beriman.( Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #8)
The pig is always associated with someone who is lazy and have a low IQ. Go and figure who he is, you ???! Let hopes whoever made that remark ask himself who is the lazy pig.
Always telling d non-muslims to balik here & balik there..! Oh well, at least we have 2nd homes!
And u call yourselfs good Muslims..? U have d rights to protest, to call names, to so….. many things. Yet u do not know the TEACHINGS of the Quran!
Well i don’t…! But i know how to be a human being.
NOT behaving like a ‘babi’ to call others “babi”….
Right…?
God didnt make Supreme human beings to rule other human beings but just human beings to rule over the fish, birds, livestock and all the wild animals on earth!!! Got it!!!
Malay speaking citizens in Sabah & Sarawak are speaking malay like any other Malaysians who use it as a means of communication, so what did ‘oknyua’ mean by insulting other races by calling on ‘ketuanan melayu’ when clearly you do not know what you are talking about. We are not malays in the first place, and yes we do not embrace islam, but aren’t we all Malaysians? Do all Malaysian’s have to speak the malay tongue in order to be called Malaysians?
And does speaking malay make anyone a malay?
For your infromation, without Sabah & Sarawak there is no Malaysia. And we do harbour the thought of pulling out of Malaysia if the western ‘NeckPains’ get to hard to bear.
Should we pull out or decide to do anything similar, then Malaysia will cease to exist.
So some of you western neck pains need to review your perception of things in perspective.
Pig is considered “lazy” and “low IQ” by whose standards??? yours or the Creator??? Pig may rule over human beings if they are faster and higher IQ than human beings!!! On the other hands, pig’s meat may not taste so nice if they exercise too much e.g. wild boar meat, you know what I mean if you have tasted it??? sorry for those who dont eat meat or abstain from eating pork.
When you think that they are educated
Yet they behave as though pig-headed
Forget that all live in the same ‘Animal Farm’
Thus no need to say anything that can cause harm
(C) Samuel Goh Kim Eng – 110808
http://MotivationInMotion.blogspot.com
Mon. 11th Aug. 2008.
pigs dun eat their own species, do they?
long b4 tis ‘pig-forbidden’ religion existed in tis region, i suppose the ancestors of those who uttered those words had enjoyed endless meal made from those cute creatures they seemed hated so much now for their survival.
They can call us Pigs and we can call them cows but as far as the citizens are concern , these are just racism tactics created by Najib , Pak Lah and the bunch of Umno Hooligans so that they can maintain their Malay rights so as the other races and the poor Malays will continue to earn for these corrupted bunch.
They can continue with these but remember , with this disunity in race and special right and quota system , it is bringing Malaysia down , there will not be progress for the whole country.
This Umno government is destroying the lives of every citizens in Malaysia.
Look at the exchange rate between Malaysia RM and Singapore dollar , it is RM 2.40 in exchange for SGD 1.00 today. 30 years ago , it was RM 0.80 to SGD 1.00.
What makes them think pig originates from China? It could be from Bolehland and then spread to the rest of the world. It that is the case, they should be call Bumipig and not babi.
guys, let’s stop making fun out of babi. Peace is all we want and i hope those fanatic Malays in Bolehland will appreciate it too.
Pig or not, Babi or not…
What’s the fuss?
It is the food that all Homosapien ate during stone age.
That time nobody is divided as who or what.
Without tHe PiG,maybe we are starve to death.
In other word: PIG ROCKS!!!( at least Malaysian people think of :> )
Ok. it looks like most do not want to be serious about this.
1) In that spirit, have everyone seen this clip long time ago where Jim Belushi in “According to Jim” paid hommage to pigs? Those who knows (and it shows the ignorance) how delicious the meat is. Bacon, Pork Chops, Ham, Sausages, ribs etc. As Belushi said, its god’s gift…
2) I have never got this ‘babi china’ thing. I never really found it insulting. Ok. White uneducated 18th century colonialist used to call Chinese pigs. But is White trash an example to follow? Perhaps this tells more about the person who said it as Dr. Noor is funnily saying here? You know pigs are NOT stupid really. If you seen them look for truffles in Italy and France you would know.. George Orwell actually depicted them as evil, misguided but NOT stupid.. Again, a reflection of the person calling ‘babi’?Hmmm???
Pig or no Pigs these morons are truly brainless…how stupid they have made such an allegations…
Betul-betul tak ada otak lol..kasihan mereka..haha
What is such an big issue? They are just animal living in earth and can be taken as food..is just that simple..as long as they are not contaminated..
Human is Human..Animal is Animal..why they don’t know to different it ah??? Soooooo….dam silly lol!
In the animal kingdom, you can never find human. However in the human kingdom, you can find many animals. Pig is one of them.
I believe those who call others pig must be pig himself because it can identify the character of pig amongst the crowd.
Normally the same kind will not eat the same kind.Now we know those who call ppl babi n dont eat babi are actually the real babi.
Those that eat babi are the tigers.Oh sorry i forget those babi hv no astro to watch national geographic.Real pitiful babi.
So make all the noice by call babi while u can cos you will be eaten in no time…
I was also told only the same kind can recognised the same kind very efficiently..but sometimes they do make mistake.
The worst mistake they can make is to mistaken a tiger for a babi..
at the Bar Council forum early morning.
51 years in history never happen before the Chinese or Indian peoples wants to rule this country. Kedaulatan kerabat DiRaja is recognized as the head of Tanah Melayu by the Chinese,Indian and the rest of all malaysian, why such remarks utters out from such a stupid and irresponsible malay person? My answer to this is Umno is the one to be blame who breed the malay by imposing wrong perception of Islam teaching on the Malay by restricting their freedom on the other hand, Umno members was around by committing sinful act in oversea like…womanising,gambling,mabuk mabuking etc.
What the Chinese,Indian and all malaysian want is peace and fair treatment as a malaysian in general. After all, the are Tax payer..right?
Let a more capable malay person run the country..that’s all. 51 years of ruling clearly resulted the malay still behind time and unable to compete in a outside world.
I meet a malay friend in a same bus who is working for Maybank in Phnom Penh travelling from Ho Chi Minh city to Phnom Penh told me he is regreted by not learning chinese, I ask him why? he reply..at least malaysian chinese can easily survive everywhere lah..cina boleh cakap banyak jenis bahasa lah.
Someone said PIG ROCKS.
Thats kinda cool.
YEH!
PIG ROCKS!
YO!
PIG ROCKS!
Even in the animal kingdom, I remember watching world news featuring a hippopotamus trying to save a deer which was attacked by a crocodile beside a river. Unfortunately the poor deer was too weak to be saved by the hippopotamus.
You see, even in the animal kingdom, certain individual animal has the heart of a human.
YB Lim KS, is that considered seditious?
If it is, issue a challenge to Syed Hamid and Abdullah Ahmad Badawi to charge those uttering such words. We have enough nonsense to tolerate bigots and one-sided application of Sedition Act. To call others “pig” is intended to insult, even if the target party is not offended.
If UMNO, Najib, Abdullah and Syed Hamid just stand still without action, I can safely agree this is yet another project “anjuran Barisan Nasional.”
A muslim went to a english restaurant for his breakfast,
the waiter came to take his order, “What would you have, sir?”.
He replied, No pork please. ” Beacon and eggs will be fine.”
Maybe it was a the spokesman of BTN, for a moment forgetting, no, not his good education, since he never enjoyed one, but his religious inclinations that forbid racism?
Look at the fat idiotic bum in front of the photographer in the hall. These idiots are trying to behave like holier than thou . But they do not know that they r making themselves known to the world with narrow, selfish egoistic brains. They thought they r champions of religion. Islam do not teach muslims to behave like this. They are bunch of idiots that spoilt the beauty of Islam.
Big shame on them.
After 50+ years we are worst off in terms of race and now religion. I fully put the blame on our BN goons running the country. This is one of their by-products. Wonder when r these idiots r going to face the REAL world.
Now, pigs are being sodomized ! what else is left ?
Bigjoe
The poll results can be explained by way of the fact that the Bar auditorium had many Malays among the audience. As you say, in a Malay channel, 50 per cent disagreed that the forum should be held.
Thank God that not all Malays belong to the Zulkifli Noordin kind.
There is always the lunatic fringe.
when someone dislike or disrespect u, it’s normally due to despisal or jealousy.
in tis case, it’s obviously the latter.
Why the surprise? We have here the largest Animal Farm with some animals more equal than other animals!
Anyway University of Illinois animal geneticists Lawrence Schook and Jonathan Beever have created a side-by-side comparison of the human genome and the pig genome that reveals remarkable similarities. “The pig is genetically very close to humans.”
It’s a case of one pig calling another pig! Ha, ha, ……….
It seems that our Kulim-Bandar Bahru and Kubang Kerian MPs got trapped in an UMNO plot with collaboration of the Bar Council. That’s what will happen if we cast aside the gray matter and resort to our emotions. Emotions do run high and can do more harm. All we need is wisdom.
//Hard to find a single metaphorical usage of pig that is not derogatory : what a comprehensive indictment of pigs.// – Jeffrey
Indeed it is and what a pity.
Even the chicken with 36 chromosomes (often derogatorily linked to less than valiant effort) comes out as the unlikely hero in the battle of the breakfast table. The chicken is INVOLVED (providing the egg) but the pig is COMMITTED (providing the bacon).
But on the other hand – our human body cell has 46 chromosomes and in a pig there are 40. Our technological advancement in genetics for the benefit human health today owes a lot to the pig because of the near likeness of its chromosomes to that of ours – HUMANS.
But I suppose the pig will eventually have the last laugh. Creatures like that fruit fly (with 8 chromosomes only) who barged into the BAR Council forum screaming ‘babi balik Cina’ may one day soon receive a transplanted organ that had been ‘grown’ in a PIG.
Oh boy, what poetic justice would that be?
Very simple mah……!
What sort of race are mostly in jail…?
What sort of race are the highest crime comitted?
What sort of race that is trying to destroy Datuk Seri Anwar Ibrahim……..?
U tell me.
Niamah ney…………………………!
Greetings! All
It’s really SAD… once again we had such intolerant personnel whose lauds the irrelevant religion issued faced in Malaysia. Is this due to level of the country education problem?
Where is the juristic stand point, don’t you think we have a good system but somehow it’s not followed. If this is the case, why we engaged the professionals instead of the moron’s from BN?
Only pig will called others “PIG”…. Which is which…
And what do the Mute Chinese Association and the Mute Indian Congress have to say about this ? If they are really supporters of minority rights, then do something. Get out of the Barang Naik consortium. Let the extremists in UMNO, PAS and PKR get together and see how much support they have.
The misguided fools from PAS and PKR who joined in the demos do not realise that they are being made use of by UMNO. They do not realise that UMNO makes use of race and religion to continue looting the country blind. While we debate and discuss these issues, the looting goes on unabated.
taiking Says:
“If a pig from china was indeed present then I would really be amused. I mean, the chinese government actually issued passport to that pig and our government actually gave that pig entry visa.”
sorry, immigration records deleted.
Pig is an intelligent animal. The person asking for pig to go back to China may not be as intelligent as the pig. Pig does not offend, and if one does not make prok his food, there is no need to insult the animal.
Don’t forget PIGS make great movie stars! Ever saw BABE?
My comments of 37 minutes ago was only factual. No harm at all….but it will be no ham at all if there were no pigs.
Don’t worry about MCA, Gerakan or MIC not making any statement regarding this. They are to be expected. I am still waiting for official statements from DAP and PAS on the “extreme demonstration” against Bar Council forum.
Many of the postings here laugh off or see the funnier side of that ugly incident. There is no corresponding crass insults hurled, demanding apologies or threats of demonstrations or lodgment of police report over it.
The restrained and matured responses in this blog thread will go near to prove a measuring cast between those who hurled derogatory racial epithets and insults in the Bar Council forum that they opposed and those who, as a genric group, have been called “pigs” to return to China.
Ooops “generic”
Mute Chinese Association is still mute over their snopping business. Now they quarel over morality – as if they have any to start with.
Aiyoh, 50 years of independence has taught us this? Unbelievable!
We are totally lost as a nation.
If that idiot had the cheek to call the chinese people ‘pigs’ because we eat pork,then what about other peoples like Europeans,Americans,Africans,Asians,they eat pork too.I can assure the person or persons who call us pigs that he or they are real pigs because he or they are as lazy and stupid as pigs.The chinese are hardworking and smart.How can they be pigs?
If malay eats ayam then why nobody calls them ayam.
Im a non malay and I don’t eat pork for health sake.
Just because somebody eats pork and you call them pig?
That’s no right all together.
Most man do not eat meat of man => man don’t eat man.so we call them man.
Most tiger also don’t eat tiger => tiger don’t eat tiger.so we call them tiger.
Man eat tiger,
Tiger eat man too.
Man eat pig,tiger eat pig but pig can’t eat tiger nor man.
Pig also don’t eat pig.
Pig eat what?? and call them what??
Pity the pig so we call them pity pig for the time being.
Pig created by God ,if the believe say so was true, then…
God told us to be fair and so on to each other as we are all brother and sister of Kingdom of God.=>so God is all fairness mercifull and all mighty.=> God not only will allow man to heaven but pig too! as this creature is create by Him.=> so those who hate pig is against God’s will and will go to Hell.
Most religion prevent thier followers from committed eating something which is believe to be harmfull but never teach them to dislike or hate them as every creature has God’s will & benignity => So accusing and hatred God creature is against God’s Will then you go to Hell.
=> those “defenders of faith” at the forum will go to Hell.
and pig need not to go back to China, they belong to this world of God creation they don’t against God’s will=>God’s Will is for them to be eaten by man and thus all Pig will go to heaven.
=> Those who claim can go to heaven must rather be a pig than a man since they are guaranted a heaven.
=> Those “faith defenders” alreday against God’s teaching shall repent and become pig in order to escape from the doom day trial as only pig can be guarantee a heaven place.
if this logic count then let us don’t offend the pig thing otherwise you will not go to heaven iirespective you are what faith defender unless you are Piggy.
I am just curious, there are about 50 million Han Muslim in China. How come I have not heard any report to do with extremist view and action from them? They are a peaceful Muslim and selling pork as well.
Is it because of their civilisation?
However there was a recent report of suicide bombing which killed 16 people, in Xinjiang which do not belong to Han Chinese? Is it because they are less civilised?
If the chinese are so-called PIG.
What about the Bumi of Indon descendant called??..Khir Toyo????
God must be sad, and perhaps angry, at what is happening in Malaysia.
We are taught that true RELIGIONS are universal in nature which encompasses the entire world and even the universe. It certainly encompasses all humanity regardless of ethnic origins.
God is One. ( The Oneness of God )
Religions are One. ( The Oneness of Religion )
Humanity is One. ( The Oneness of Humanity )
No one has the sole monopoly of any religion. And no religion belongs to any sole group of persons. To claim so would have been running afoul of teachings and precepts of religions.
Open discussions, debates and questioning would encourage the learning of religions and hence to learn about the true teachings and tenets therein. On the other hand, attempts to “control and monopolise” the teaching and learning of religion would lead to wrong and misleading understanding.
To all who are sincere and God fearing, do not abuse the platform of religions for personal and selfish ends. There should be no attempts to hijack other people’s desire to seek out truth, where there are urgent and imperative questions which affect segments of society. Instead, contribute your knowledge and understanding to further enlighten society.
There are right ways, and there are incorrect ways to do things. Let good sense and wisdom prevail. After all, aren’t religions supposed to guide humanity? If we are true to the teachings, then we would have been magnanimous and forgiving, and understanding. There should be no room for quarrels, shouting, discrimination, prejudice, hypocrisy, etc., etc.
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Not all Chinese eat pork/pig => Not all man eat pork or pig.
All Chinese who don’t eat pork not dislike pork/pig=> not all man dislike pork/pig.
Pig for man to eat => God’s creation.
God’s teaching is not to hate => don’t hate pig
Who hate pig = hate God.
It was the same with UMNO. Now PAS/PKR has showed their true colours.
i read some of these researches done in local and foreign universities about the aborigines in malaysia- to my surprise- the malay ethnic are not originated from malaysia. there are originally from indonesia.the real aborigines are those sabahans and sarawakians- in tanah melayu were only those burmese whom were worshiping hindu gods!! thats y if you read carefully in history- there are hindu elements in kedah / kelantan and perak. other than that the land was empty. the malays came in later with no religion. and even there are evidence that the chinese came earlier than them in kelantan- they found a tomb in kelantan sumewer the 12th centuries…to tell you the truth everyone of us are not the real owner for this land (http://malaysianunplug.blogspot.com/2008/07/anwar-ibrahim-will-stand-in-permatang.html).. everyone of us menumpang.. so ( the malays) in that forum has no rights to say such thing… actually sadly to say the malays have no knowledge of their background. most of them dunt know who are they….in 1999 my sister went to america- and sadly to say all of those mat salleh thought we were still staying on the trees!!! can you imagine that….they were very shocked seeing my sister dressed well … cus they thought we were illiterate and dirty and etc etc…some of them dunt even know that malaysia exits!!
Those ‘defenders of the faith’ who yelled ‘Babi’ ‘Balik Cina’ should have a good look at their family tree or genealogy.
Each of us has 2 parents, 4 grand-parents, 8 great grand-parents, 16 great great grand-parents, 32 great great great grand-parents, 64 great great great great grand-parents, 128 ……… grand-parents, 256 ……… grand-parents, etc.
Are those ‘defenders of the faith’ 100% sure that none of their ancestors were babi-eating non-Muslims or came from outside Malaysia?
Sorry off topic
///Sebaliknya jika kita belajar Sains dan Matematik dalam bahasa Inggeris kita akan dapat akses secara langsung sendiri semua ilmu yang diterokai dan dibukukan dalam bahasa Inggeris tanpa menunggu pengalih bahasa kita. Tiap-tiap tajuk yang terkini dan yang lama terbuka untuk kita menguasainya. Dengan itu kita tidak akan ketinggalan daripada segi ilmu pengetahuan berbanding dengan bangsa yang maju. ///–TDM
TDM tried to justify the teaching of science and mathematics in English—from primary school.
Nobody would argue with TDM on the need to master the English language. The teachers in Chinese, Malay and Indian schools considered it improper to teach mathematics and science in English in primary school when the students have not acquired the required proficiency in English. It was the approach to make the students learn English that they differed with TDM. Of course when the person had the power to implement when he pleased, he became the experts and all others were fools.
We do not know how much sufferings have been inflicted on the teachers and students in primary schools because of the policy dictated by TDM. Much funds have been wasted too. TDM shows once again how he linked cases through unrelated logic.
Human as well as animals recognize their species by association. As such the pig which was part of the MOB outside the Bar Council premises would have easily recognized the other pig. Calling the other pig to “balik Cina” is rather confusing. Maybe the ill-informed pig does not know the history of pigs as a whole.
So pigs that gave an ultimatum for the forum to be curtailed are so thick-skinned (pun intended) that they do not understand what the forum was all about.
IT WAS NOT ABOUT OR AGAINST ISLAM.
IT WAS TO DISCUSS THE PLIGHT OF NON-MUSLIMS WHO ARE FORCED TO FACE SYARIAH COURT DECISONS BECAUSE ONE OF THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS HAD CONVERTED AND THEY DO NOT HAVE RECOURSE TO JUSTICE IN A CIVIL COURT.
The aim of the forum among other things was to find amicable ways and means to settle disputes that arise when a member of a non-muslim family dies and the religious department claims the body as that of a muslim.
Or when the deceased member’s family becomes destitutes because the syariah court does not recognize their rights to property, etc. because they are non-muslims.
Calling for disputes to be settled behind closed doors is a non-starter in the first place. The non-muslim party under the circumstances does not have access to the civil courts and justice is denied.vThe syariah courts only recognize muslims and their interests. All their deliberations and decisions are pro-muslim.
That forum was to find ways and means out of this dilemma.
can anybody tell what is the different between “ketuanan melayu” vs Nazi? did they preach the same thing?
Each of us has 2 parents, 4 grand-parents, 8 great grand-parents, 16 great great grand-parents, 32 great great great grand-parents, 64 great great great great grand-parents, 128 ……… grand-parents, 256 ……… grand-parents, 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8129, 16384, and so on.
So, actually, like it or not, we are all related – some of my ancestors may be your ancestors as well, many many generations away.
If there is a Malay, Chinese, or Indian who thinks he is 100% pure, please let us know. It is scientifically impossible, unless the person is a product of continuous asexual cloning from one original human!
Each of us is actually a melting pot comprising genes from various ethnic groups. So, we should stop behaving as if we are 100% pure and stop condemning individuals of other ethnic or religious groups.
Too bad that they are so many innocent Malays been dragged into such situation by Indon-originated Malays….
Why are Indo-originated Malays be allowed to called themselves Bumiputra..???
Why can’t a Chinese, Indian be one???
No wonder the UMNO are a hell of a party with a mixture of Indon hot tempered and typical Malays ….
Dear YB and to All Comrades
**************************************************
For Chinese “Hua Ren” in Malaysia, We have 2 choices :
a) To follow our ancestors who migrated to Malaysia and migrate to other countries, which I personally think the government is quite please with this.
b) To die-standing and stay here to continue to fight for a place and equality. But chinese based parties are not united. We have DAP, Gerakan and MCA, yet we are the minority.
**************************************************
We need another Dr.Sun Yat Sen here to unite the chinese.
*************************************************
“can anybody tell what is the different between “ketuanan melayu” vs Nazi? did they preach the same thing….”
If you look closely at the Nazi swastika flag…is the opposite of a Buddhist sign.
If you look closely at UMNO flag… you could see a NINJA TURTLE crossed keris…how amazing…
Adolf_Napoleon Says:
…We need another Dr.Sun Yat Sen here to unite the chinese’
We have Lim Kit Siang and the gang….
When it comes to scholarships, Amanah Saham, special discount for property purchase…
All the BABI got no share.
But when it comes to TAX pay up time every year…
All the BABI gotta pay equally.
if I can remember China, through Admiral Cheng Ho, provide protection to the Sultans of Malaya from the attacks of pirates from Indonesia and Siamese (now Thailand). Without the protection from China, history of Malaysia will be different now. The sultans should be grateful to the Chinese for protecting them.
This Najis was the person who call the Chinese and Indian “pendatang” until Datuk Lee Kim Sai told him off.
The so call “defenders of the faith” believe that everything happens on earth is the will of God. Since God wants the Chinese and Indian to be born in Malaysia, why on earth they want to go against the wishes of God to ask the Chinese to go back to China and the Indian to go back to India?
Are they practising what the God is asking them to do? Are they real “defender of the faith” of Islam?
Bernice Tang Says:
can anybody tell what is the different between “ketuanan melayu” vs Nazi? did they preach the same thing?
Nazi is talking about expansion and conquering beyond their territory.
“ketuanan melayu” means they want to be lord of his own territory forever fed by immigrant servants.
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During the British occupation, there’s saying…
The indian works for British people to spend…
Now, the Malay are doing what the British did.
The Chinese are working so that the Malays can keep on spending.
Members of MCA,GERAKAN,MIC, and PPP what are u waiting for. You have been named as ULAR and BABI. Is it what you want?
is like that. We didnt see doesnt means no ma.
May be Boar was issue a passport for Pig neh.
kiren, just be careful with your comment. we dont want to see you missing. anyway, don’t comment about Sultans. They are the customary head of states.
Why Zul goes missing ? well , nobody knows. What he did as a PKR MP was unimaginable ?
I am a Malaysian , period.
Even if the political leadership deems it otherwise, the fact of the matter is that Malaysia is my homeland.
If the situation in my homeland becomes uninhabitable for me and my family members, I will be looking for refuge in a nearby Asean country rather than ‘balik Cina’
The BABI CHINA hurts!
This land and the land elsewhere belongs to the creator, God..
Ketuanan? what ketuanan?
Man are created equal, have equal rights on earth….
mauriyaII, it amuses me every time I see a non-Muslim trying to explain Islamic history or it’s principles to the Muslims, it’s akins to having Christians explain Bhuddism to a Bhuddist etc.
>> Even when they criticize the Israelis as kafir, they fail to realize that their religion has its roots and practices in judaism.
Christianity and Islam doe NOT have their roots in Judaism as the latter has it’s own code of laws that were distinct to the time and people who were adherents of it. Abraham was not a Jew and the concept of “Abrahamic faith” denotes first and foremost, the commonality of the monotheism (which Judaism and Christianity has since lost).
>> Even the halal concept is from ‘kosher’ of the so-called zionis.
Wrong again, issues relating to dietery laws have been subject to modification according to each religion’s Shari’ah (i.e. way of life), what was allowed for prophetic nations of the past were not allowed for those who preceded them etc. regulations regarding food and drink went through a phase of abrogation until the final Shari’ah was established through Islam (as we believe to be the case).
>> IT WAS NOT ABOUT OR AGAINST ISLAM.
It was against the principles governing conversions within/without Islam, hence it was a forum questioning the established status quo of Islamic teachings
>> IT WAS TO DISCUSS THE PLIGHT OF NON-MUSLIMS WHO ARE FORCED TO FACE SYARIAH COURT DECISONS BECAUSE ONE OF THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS HAD CONVERTED AND THEY DO NOT HAVE RECOURSE TO JUSTICE IN A CIVIL COURT.
This is a misnomer because the non-Muslim has no real right over a member of a family who becomes a Muslim. This does not mean that the non-Muslims are abandoned or foresaken in terms of family ties and economic consequences arising from the conversion.
The forum tried to open a root and establish an alternative rule to govern conversions that are directly in opposition to Islam. Again you have either misunderstood the agenda of the forum or you are deliberately trying to lie.
>> The aim of the forum among other things was to find amicable ways and means to settle disputes that arise when a member of a non-muslim family dies and the religious department claims the body as that of a muslim.
The government had already stated that they are looking into ways that will require the convert to have witnesses and/or inform family members about their intention and actions. This is the likely amicable solution that may receive a general concensus.
>> Calling for disputes to be settled behind closed doors is a non-starter in the first place.
Calling for disputes to be settled behind closed doors is a perfectly valid option because it; a) removes media intrusion and thus possible sentimental outrage by Muslims and non-Muslims alike; b) far more broader options can be discussed to reach a solution because nothing would be considered off-limits.
>> The non-muslim party under the circumstances does not have access to the civil courts and justice is denied.
Not quite true because the g’ment is mulling the idea of giving civil courts a recourse to the shariah courts where complex issues like the one you describe arise.
>> The syariah courts only recognize muslims and their interests. All their deliberations and decisions are pro-muslim.
This may be true in the Malaysian context because of a 2-tier legal system; however in a fully Islamically functioning societies of the past (no current examples given), have bore witness to the justice it disseminated to all the citizens of an Islamic state (e.g. http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/388/)
Your premise right from the start is unfounded because your emotions seem to be over-ruling your intellect and the ground realities in Malaysia.
Adios.
With pigs come BAH KUT TEH.It tastes good n sedap hingga menjilat jari.Don’t believe? Try once and you will love it.
When a Malay girl goes through the motion of a French kiss with her Chinese and non-Muslim boyfriend who just had his bah kut teh, is it intended to have the same taste as ‘menkilat jari’ (may be not ‘jari’)?
oooops ‘menjilat’
oh…isn’t that ‘khalwat’?
Bernice Tang Says:
Today at 15: 44.59 (5 hours ago)
can anybody tell what is the different between “ketuanan melayu” vs Nazi? did they preach the same thing?”
One is about the supremacy of the Aryan race i.e. the supremacy of a people with blonde hair and blue eyes, and the other the so-called supremacy of a people neither blue nor blonde, whose roots and origins are as unknown as illegal aliens coming down from their UFOs.
aiD_kamikuP Says:
Today at 21: 05.42 (1 minute ago)
oh…isn’t that ‘khalwat’?”
‘Khalwat’ is when you are in a room having coffee together.
..and one happens to be a Malay and the other not.
zak-hammaad,
Before you try impose your take on your interpretation of judaism, concept of kosher and claim Christianity is not the basis for Islam, I had the privilege of showing the said comment to a Malay friend who happens to be an Islamic scholar and a revered friend.
He did not find the comment offensive or disrepctful of Islam. He understands the ground realities in Malaysia where Islam is concerned. When a forum is held to find solutions to arbitrary snatching of bodies and the forfeiture of property under the name of Islamic jurisprudence, it is all the more imperative to have such forums.
By the way the forum organizers did invite prominent Islamic authorities to take part in the discussion. If invited officials do not turn up to give their views, what guaratee is there that closed door discussions would be successful.
Closed door discussions are only possible if participants come without prejudice and personal agendas.
What I wrote about the non-muslims not being given a fair and just treatment under the prevailing concept of Islam in this country by the syariah courts is true and cannot be denied.
It is not I who is oblivious of the ground realities in the country but people like you who like to sweep uncomfortable issues and problems under the carpet and behave like the proverbial cat or the ostrich with its head buried in sand.
For your information the government is moving at a snail’s pace to take any form of concrete action to solve the plight of the victims because it does not want to alienate the vote bank of the Malay-muslims.
Getting emotional and angry defeats the very purpose of an intellectual discourse. I do not condone profanity or the right to dissent in a civilized discussion.
Sorry for some typos in my reply to zak-hammaad.
Farish,
i love babirusa, its not real babi lah…its little pelanduk like animal, and completely vegetarian, so really its ‘halal’ and tastes best curried or rendang.
Yummyy……
All that education in the world can’t make a man become civilized…tsk tsk tsk…
We are proud with our newly super mixed breed Khinzir Jantan in the state of Negeri Sembilan but it is damn ugly look?
zak_hammaad Says:
“This is a misnomer because the non-Muslim has no real right over a member of a family who becomes a Muslim. This does not mean that the non-Muslims are abandoned or foresaken in terms of family ties and economic consequences arising from the conversion.”
I felt that zak_hammaad is not addressing the real issues faced by non-Muslims. He dwells on non-Muslim right over a family member who becomes a Muslim as an over-riding issue. Can he clarify what he means by “no real right over…” I felt that a person married under civil law must first fulfill his/her obligations and responsibilities under the jurisdiction of the civil court before resorting to the syariah court. Can zak_hammaad clarify how non-Muslims will not abandoned or forsaken familial-wise and economically?
“The forum tried to open a root and establish an alternative rule to govern conversions that are directly in opposition to Islam. Again you have either misunderstood the agenda of the forum or you are deliberately trying to lie.”
The forum is themed, “Conversion To Islam”. How does zak_hammaad perceive the forum as “establishing an alternative rule….directly in opposition to Islam”?
Before he points and accuse others of ignorance and resort to calling others liars, perhaps he can enlighten us with facts to establish his case.
If zak_hammaad is who he portrays himself to be, a prudent and intelligent person open to discourse, I would like to hear his response.
mauriyaII said :
>> The aim of the forum among other things was to find amicable ways and means to settle disputes that arise when a member of a non-muslim family dies and the religious department claims the body as that of a muslim.
zak_hammaad said :
“The government had already stated that they are looking into ways that will require the convert to have witnesses and/or inform family members about their intention and actions. This is the likely amicable solution that may receive a general concensus.”
I felt that the forum was the Bar Council’s and the public’s response in helping the govt. to look for ways. In your own words, “..the likely amicable solution that may receive a general consensus.” How else could it be a general consensus if all stakeholders are not involved in its discussion? Some have chosen to stay away.
>> Calling for disputes to be settled behind closed doors is a non-starter in the first place.
Calling for disputes to be settled behind closed doors is a perfectly valid option because it; a) removes media intrusion and thus possible sentimental outrage by Muslims and non-Muslims alike; b) far more broader options can be discussed to reach a solution because nothing would be considered off-limits.
I must disagree with you here as “..behind closed doors is a perfectly valid option..” is contrary to what you profess “..the likely amicable solution that may receive a general consensus.” If as you say, ” far more broader options can be discussed to reach a solution because nothing would be considered off-limits”, I would understand that to mean all parties are open-minded to matured and logical discussions. Why then in secrecy?
>> The non-muslim party under the circumstances does not have access to the civil courts and justice is denied.
Not quite true because the g’ment is mulling the idea of giving civil courts a recourse to the shariah courts where complex issues like the one you describe arise.
I felt that here zak-Hammaad had agreed, “..the govt is mulling…”
Why then deny the truth as stated by mauriyaII? The forum is to address the issue of giving non-muslims a recourse to the civil courts on such complex issues. Not as you have otherwise stated,
“..giving civil courts a recourse to the shariah courts..”
I think MM Kutty is heeding the call to “balik India.”
ok sorry steve- wont speak anything against the nature of this country.
sorry again.
Demostrating apa ni? tak kena mengena ! Why demostrating stupidly ! Using babi and so on ! what it got to do with conversion to Islam and the problems non muslims are facing with syariah court. Is this the so called thrid world demonstation? Really a shame! This is a religious topic/isue (Bar Council)…even if you are angry ……one should not demonstrate like stupidly using babi ,kerbau and kambing.Very sad bolehland!
Do they(unhappy crowd) really understand the aim of the forum. One cannot start barking when not knowing the head and tail of the forum! ha !ha .
If Chinese can be labeled as pig, what happen to those nations who take pork as diet ie.Japanese, Korean, Mat Salleh and other nationals?
We would never hear the non-pigs called Mat Salleh as pigs simply because the non-pigs still live in the shadow of colonization…where Mat Salleh are always the respectable and untouchable one. Mat Salleh are the high and mighty one..!!! Perhaps even longing to marry one too..!!!
We would never hear the non-pigs called Japanese as pigs even though they have invaded Malaya before and still the non-pigs don’t call Japanese pigs simply many of non-pigs were spared and not beheaded like Chinese did with the Japanese Samurai swords. So non-pigs are grateful…!!!
We would never hear the non-pigs called Korean as pigs as Koreans will definitely bash them up left-right-center in the middle of the any streets of Kuala Lumpur knowing the Koreans’ temper.
So, it has to be the….CHINESE..!!! Why on earth the Chinese always the easy target when thing is happening in the country? Why can’t those non-pigs fanatic look at their own reflection? Perhaps the non-pigs fear of their own reflection of what they might see..!!! If the country were to rely on those non-pigs fanatics, perhaps we could have to compare ourselves with todays’ Afghanistan..!!!
mauriyaII Says:
>> I had the privilege of showing the said comment to a Malay friend who happens to be an Islamic scholar and a revered friend.
Because I do not know his credentials, I’m sorry but I can not give you the benefit of the doubt on him being an “Islamic scholar”.
>> He did not find the comment offensive or disrepctful of Islam. He understands the ground realities in Malaysia where Islam is concerned.
I personally did not find the forum disrespectful either but the fact it that many DID find it offensive and saw it as an attempt by an ‘external force’ to slur and reinterpret the teachings of Islam on matters of conversion. How we get to an amicable solution is what matters not why.
>> When a forum is held to find solutions to arbitrary snatching of bodies and the forfeiture of property under the name of Islamic jurisprudence, it is all the more imperative to have such forums.
Not really; and using highly charged semantics like “body snatching” and “property seizure” is perceived (rightly or wrongly) by many Muslims to be a non-Muslim agenda to move the goal posts and challenge the legitimacy of Islam in Malaysia!
>> By the way the forum organizers did invite prominent Islamic authorities to take part in the discussion.
This would have been even more the reason for the forum to be held behind closed doors with public announcements made if a consensus had been reached. The fact a highly charged topic was in the public domain made any sort of a reasoned approach to the discussions impossible.
>> Closed door discussions are only possible if participants come without prejudice and personal agendas.
The irony is that the Bar Council was seen to have come with a prejudice and personal agenda. The very fact they wanted to discuss what they already saw as unjust and anti-constitutional items with a view to changing them reflected their bias. Fundamentally, this is a constitutional matter and not a religious one; therefore inviting Islamic scholars would not have given the legal balance the matter required.
>> It is not I who is oblivious of the ground realities in the country but people like you who like to sweep uncomfortable issues and problems under the carpet and behave like the proverbial cat or the ostrich with its head buried in sand.
Ignoring something is NOT the same as wanting to discuss and debate in a wise and conducive manner where the social cohesion of communities is NOT compromised. For the sake of “uncomfortable issues”, you are willing to throw caution to the wind in the hope that the majority would accept knee-jerk reactions of the minority is nonsensical.
>> For your information the government is moving at a snail’s pace to take any form of concrete action to solve the plight of the victims because it does not want to alienate the vote bank of the Malay-muslims.
Exegeration will not get you anywhere and will not win you any favours with the victims you are trying to help. The bottom line is that we need to find a solution to the problem you describe, however the problems are an exception rather than the rule (as you would like people to believe). Highlighting several cases in a country of 27 million and blowing them out of proportion may be your way of hastening answers, but government also understands this and change must come through a process of evolution and not bloddy revolutions.
zak-hammad,
What made you to arrive at the conclusion that I was trying to teach you Islam? God forbid. I shall leave such mundane work to those who assume the mantle of intermediaries between God and man. Being a mere mortal I do not profess to have such a deep understanding of Him and thus would not choose to interpret and thus defile his teachings.
If a degree in Islam, its tenets, a post graduate degree in Islamic jurisprudence and being a senior lecturer in a world renowned Islamic institution of higher learning is insufficient as credentials, then what is? He is not from one of those madrassa schools that churn out the misguided faithfuls.
You mentioned that many DID find the forum offensive. Who are these so-called many? If you are referring to the unruly MOB and their actions, it is they who had misunderstood the purpose of the forum. They are the ones guilty of the slurs on Islam which preaches tolerance, compassion and peace. They are an utter disgrace.
In Malaysia you do not need any “external force” to subvert and reinterpret the teachings of Islam. The many guardians of the faith who cannot understand rudimentary teachings of Islam and who call for jihad and issue fatwas at their whims and fancies are enough to undermine and make a mockery of the faith.
By the way who is guilty of moving the goalposts? Who is challenging the legitimacy of Islam? Not the organizers and not the peace loving non-muslims who understand the position of Islam is sacrosact as enshrined in the constitution. Please do us a favour. Think before you rebutt.
You have given a spin to ‘body snatching’ and ‘property forfeiture’ (not seizure) as perceptions (rightly or wrongly) of many muslims as a non-muslim agenda. This is the very thought process that tends to sweep the ‘uncomfortable issues’ under the carpet. You do not want to face the truth. It is not some semantics. Those actions are the ones that truly burden the members of the affected families.
You seem to have a penchant to distort facts to suit your personal agenda and that is to villify a legitimate gathering to find solutions to grave and urgent problems.
What rigmarole are you trying to weave? The forum did not touch on the constitutional position of Islam. It just wanted to find an amicable solution with the help of muslims of good standing. Unfortunately the forum had to be truncated no thanks to some very enlightened souls from the MOB.
For your information there was no exaggeration on my part. If as you claim “change must come through a process of evolution” would you care to enlighten your concept of the evolutionary process? Nobody is talking about bloody revolutions. Why should you?
Decisions on legal and material issues are not made through evolutionary process. Haven’t you heard of taking the bull by its horns?
Those ‘defenders of the faith’ yelled ‘Babi’ ‘Balik Cina’???
So this is the behavior of those who embrace ‘the faith’.
ALL KINDS OF ANIMALS, BIRDS, REPTILES AND CREATURES OF THE SEA ARE BEING TAMED AND HAVE BEEN TAMED BY MAN, BUT NO MAN CAN TAME THE TONGUE. IT IS RESTLESS EVIL, FULL OF DEADLY POISON
WITH THE TONGUE WE PRAISE OUR LORD AND FATHER, AND WITH IT WE CURSE MEN, WHO HAVE BEEN MADE IN GOD’S LIKENESS. OUT OF THE SAME MOUTH COME PRAISE AND CURSING.
MY BROTHERS THIS SHOULD NOT BE……………CAN BOTH FRESH WATER AND SALT WATER FLOW FROM THE SAME SPRING?
MY BROTHERS CAN A FIG TREE BEAR OLIVES OR A GRAPEVINE BEAR FIGS? NEITHER CAN A SALT SPRING PRODUCE FRESH WATER
JAMES 3:7-12
ARE MY BROTHERS BEHAVING LIKE PEOPLE OF GOD?
Too much of ” BELACAN ” perhaps in his as##s for such an utter word by calling us ” BABI BALIK CHINA “
“The Believer is not one who slanders nor abuse others. He is not one who likes to speak dirty. Neither is he one whose tongue says things that insult or hurt.”
“Guard yourselves against words that are dirty, because Allah s.w.t. does not like words that are dirty or vulgar. Nor does He like behaviours that are disrespectful.”
To all “defenders of the faith”, please take heed!!!
hihihi funny tho… that particular people or person that said that ‘Babi Balik China’ statement really know nothing lah… did he see any ‘made in china’ sticker at that babi bum? hahaha aduih!!! that people is so ignorant….paling senang.. if u check in internet only.. u can see more than 100 breed of pig around the world just like other animal and also human… hahah pity lah that guy…
mauriyaII, it’s becoming a wasteful exercise for me to correct your wrong perceptions; nevertheless I will give it one last go:
>> I shall leave such mundane work to those who assume the mantle of intermediaries between God and man.
This is a misnomer because Islam is the only monotheistic faith; the issue of mediation was one of the major issues in which Islam superseded all other religions, because there is no intermediary between the Creator and the created. There are no priests or monks in Islam; these intermediaries in fact are the cause of most evil in other religions (http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/101736).
>> If a degree in Islam, its tenets, a post graduate degree in Islamic jurisprudence and being a senior lecturer in a world renowned Islamic institution of higher learning is insufficient as credentials, then what is?
Experience in the real world and coming down to grass root level and leading by example.
>> Who are these so-called many?
Well it certainly is not the 200+ demonstrators. It is the people (mainly Muslim) on the streets who have made their position clear; all you have to do is speak to as many as you can :^) Those in support of the forum as it stands are mostly non-Muslim which in and of itself is an antagonistic approach.
>> In Malaysia you do not need any “external force” to subvert and reinterpret the teachings of Islam.
Perhaps you should take a lot at some of the Christian missionary work that is taking place in Sabah and Sarawak. Most of them are graduates from North American Church organisations and have been spilling over from Indonesia for years. However, in this context, I was mainly referring to parties who are not privy to government legislation or responsible for
>> …and who call for jihad and issue fatwas at their whims and fancies are enough to undermine and make a mockery of the faith.
Jihad clearly is not what you have been force-fed to believe. As for fatwas, I’d like to let you know that it is simply a non-binding motion which can either be accepted or rejected, it is neither law nor a replacement for established norms.
>> By the way who is guilty of moving the goalposts? Who is challenging the legitimacy of Islam? Not the organizers and not the peace loving non-muslims who understand the position of Islam is sacrosact as enshrined in the constitution.
The forum was partly about discussing and debating the issue of conversion to Islam and its’s “reprecussions” on family members and their recourse to what they believe is their rights. Islam clearly holds different views and to reconcile them requires in-depth analysis and wise decisions acceptable to all; in the initial stages, this can NOT be done through a public forum!
>> Those actions are the ones that truly burden the members of the affected families.
Please see above paragraph.
>> The forum did not touch on the constitutional position of Islam.
With every cleverly devised plan, blatant infringement on norms is never challenged. It is a slow and gradual process that plays on the sub-conscience that eventually begins to question the norm and attempts to alter the status quo. You may want to read upon this concept within the political arena.
>> If as you claim “change must come through a process of evolution” would you care to enlighten your concept of the evolutionary process?
1. Organise an initial closed door session consisting of credible, acceptable representatives of all faiths
2. Attempt to draft a consensus.
3. Justify and explain and sell the idea to the rakyat.
4. Hold public sessions in each constituency to gouge responses.
5. Re-work the draft if necessary.
6. Agree to a frame-work.
7. Make the processes public and trial the procedures for a 6 month/1 year period.
8. Report on results and make law where possible.
>> Haven’t you heard of taking the bull by its horns?
Those who take the bull by the horns should be prepared to be gored; so they sow, so shall they reap. Every action has a reaction, whether it is positive or negative will depend on the way it is handled.
For those intending to kill themselves pointlessly of course by duelling for and over misunderstood “religious/poltical ideology” please get in touch.
I have duelling pistols, swords (and one very rare toledo salamanca btw), krises, kelewangs, kukris, lightsabres, etc. etc. etc. at very economically competitive prices to make your final pointless acts of stupid suicidal self-annihilation somewhat memorable.
There are even two for one early bird offers with free gifts if the potential duellists can possibly cooperate…….
WE SAY YEAH! :)
zak-hammad,
Refer to The Star, page N20 dated August 13 to what the Pas Research Centre has to say about the Bar Council forum.
If that does not open your eyes as to the purpose of the forum and why it is necessary to trash out ambiguities that occur when conversion take place and its repercussions, then I think it is not worthwile to discuss anymore to a mule-headed religious fanatic.
You are really pathetic when as a muslim you trivialize the importance of jihad and fatwas.
Jihad is a call to wage war against anybody who is believed to be a threat to Islam. It is not the jihad that Sharizat declared against DSAI because he is a muslim and he is not anti-Islam.
You said, “As for fatwas, I’d like to let you know that it is simply a non-binding motion which can either be accepted or rejected, it is neither law nor a replacement for established norms.”
The above alone shows your shallow understanding of your religion. Fatwas are not some frivolous decree issued by lunatics.
The ayotollas and other respected clergy who issue such fatwas do so after taking into consideration the various facets of the infringement or slurs on the faith before such fatwas are decreed. The onus is on the faithful to respect such a decree and execute it to the letter.
That is all I have to say to you who is nothing but a spin doctor who circumvents issues and valid arguements.
So you can rave and rant and expose your childish reasoning and your pathetic understanding of your own religion. It is up to you. I am not interested in your comments any more.
aku tak faham, mengapa kita semua masih perkauman? Misalnya pekerjaan, mengapa gaji pekerja berbangsa cina lebih tinggi dari Melayu walaupun bekerja ditempat yang sama? misalnya jika tokey adalah cina? ini isu lebih relevan dari isu babi ni… p/s: show and answer this comment
A malaypura has just hugged a Babi in the Beijing Olympic just 15 minutes ago.He did not Balik Cina, but may return with a Gold Medal to Malaysia.
Malaysia should be proud that a ‘babi’ just got them a silver medal at the Olympic….They are paying the ‘babi’ some rewards for bringing fame to the country.
NST,The Star,Berita Harian, your main page should highlight ” Babi Pulang dengan Pingat Perak untuk Malaysia” or ” Malaysian Pig won silver and 1st medal for Malaysia, but the pig were asked to go back to China” or “Babi Mengharumkan nama Malaysia”
mauriyaII, If you were a Muslim, you would understand that a “fatwat” is simply an answer to a pressing question. A fatwa is a non-binding motion that can either be accepted or rejected based on the prevailing conditions on the context. Instead of trying to teach Muslims what Islam is, I was expecting a response to my list of processes that you conveniently over-looked :^)
Good luck.