Posted on by Kit

Disruption of Bar Council forum on conversion – adverse reflection on law and order/religious harmony

The police yielding to pressure to disrupt the half-day Bar Council forum on conversion to Islam at 10 am in Kuala Lumpur today is a most adverse reflection on law and order as well as religious harmony in Malaysia on the eve of the 51st Merdeka anniversary.

Malaysia has failed a major test in nation-building to demonstrate that we are shaping up to be a more civil society where sensitive issues of inter-faith problems can be discussed in a mature and responsible manner to promote national unity and religious harmony in the country.

As the Bar Council has made it clear that the forum on religious conversion is not to question the provisions of Article 121(1A) of the Constitution which conferred syariah jurisdiction over Muslims but to address the conflicts of laws facing families caught between the separate jurisdictions of civil and syariah laws, greater understanding, tolerance and sensitivity should have been shown by all Malaysians concerned.

Such understanding, tolerance and sensitivity would undoubtedly have been present in the first four decades of Malaysian nationhood and I have no doubt that if such a forum had been organised ten years ago, there would not have been the insensitive, intolerant and deplorable reaction evident today.

The Police failed in its duty when instead of upholding the law, they sided with the protestors in ensuring the abrupt end of the half-day forum at 10 am.

Are there any Cabinet Ministers who are prepared to raise this episode at Wednesday’s Cabinet meeting to uphold the right to have such forums to be held?

This is unlikely considering the public stand that has been taken by Umno leaders, including the Deputy Prime Minister Najib Razak, Home Minister, Hamid Albar, the Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department, Ahmad Zahid Hamidi and the Education Minister Hishammuddin Hussein demanding that the Bar Council forum should be called off.

Hishammuddin even warned that the Bar Council should not “test the patience of the Malays and Muslims” while the Malacca Chief Minister Mohd Ali Rustam said the Internal Security Act should be used purportedly for the continued questioning of Article 121 of the Federal Constitution “resulting in racial tension”.

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196 Replies to “Disruption of Bar Council forum on conversion – adverse reflection on law and order/religious harmony”

  2. Judging from what happened to the Bar Council Forum today and how the police and people behaved, Vision 2020 looks set to be a failure – we still have a long long way to go before we achieve that goal!

  5. ~~ dawsheng (9/8/08, 15: 04.17) Says:

    The Muslims did not force the non-muslims to convert to Islam.~~

    It is not about forcing or not forcing the conversion to Islam…

    It is an avenue to discuss on the ‘grey area’ in the Law dual to dual -legal system that existed in the country. A forum which can come out with a proposal to end ‘bodies snatching’ incidences .

    Malaysian should be more open and mature to hold discussion and to let forums to take place where solutions to issues and problems can be found.

    A truth is always a truth, would not become less truth caused by any forms of discussions.

  6. correction… It is an avenue to discuss on the ‘grey area’ in the Law due to dual -legal system that existed in the country. A forum which can come out with a proposal to end ‘bodies snatching’ incidences .

  7. Careful, careful….UMNO is going to warn us that they will sue us for defamation. UMNO is going to warn us not to raise any issue where they have used to hide behind their schemes to steal. So don’t use race or religion, no matter how legitimate they may be.

    Stealing is a hard habit to break.

  10. Kasim Amat, Rose Fashion – these UMNOputras are being paid by Mike Tyson to plant their comments on this blog.

    Unless we have evidence that they have stolen from the rakyat, we should not call UMNO thieves. Unless we have evidence that they have lied to the rakyat, we should not call them liars. Unless we have evidence that have cheated the rakyat, we should not call them cheats.

    Do we have the evidence of their lying, cheating, and stealing ? Of course we have, and we are just waiting for them to take us to a court of law so that we can put UMNO in the best possible light..

  13. The forum among other can be used to find solutions on how to deal with a situation when the ‘religion status’ of a dead person could not be clearly determined or even the religion status of a living person due to marriage or parent conversion to another religion….

  16. First world infrastructure, Third world mentality. That sums it up.

    And no, we ain’t prepared for such forum yet. That’s because the opportunity to do so was forfeited long ago …

    This latest round, BN wins. Seems PR is breaking up. We have ppl from PKR and PAS opposing and demonstrating against this Bra Council forum.

    PR has less than 5 years to prove its salt. Don’t deceive ourselves that the voters gave their votes to the opposition in favour of multiracialism on March 8. Even Jeff Ooi conducted a poll and a good number of respondents polled said that their votes were ‘against BN out of anger’.

    Hasn’t anybody learnt anything yet? Anger decides where the votes go. So do bread and butter issues.

  18. Having opposing views and differences in a political coalition are signs of healthy democracy, or we rather have the kind of slave and master coalition in BN?

    Worst case scenario, PAS will become independent of any coalition.

  19. I just got this nagging feeling that Malaysians have not learnt anything from history….

    Lately, there have been all the talks of Malaysia being a Police State. Then the joint exercise between the police and army. Then the massive road blocks …..

    This could be the trigger needed by UMNO ….

    As one rejoices in the ‘victory’ over Anwar’s sodomy 2, the undoing may just have appeared …

  20. # dawsheng Says:
    Today at 15: 04.17 (1 hour ago)

    The Muslims did not force the non-muslims to convert to Islam.
    ===========

    Yes, however, the spouse and children of the convert falls into a legal mess. That’s what the forum trying to resolve. Not about how one converts, or should one convert, etc.

  22. sir,i agree with you.
    what a disgrace to malaysia that
    we cant discuss matter of utmost importance in public.
    50 years of independence and this is where we are!
    religion is beautiful, it was never meant to separate us.
    as an avid believer of pluralism, i believe that all
    religion brings us closer to god and goodness.
    when will our nation ever understand?!

  23. //The police yielding to pressure to disrupt the half-day Bar Council forum on conversion to Islam at 10 am in Kuala Lumpur today is a most adverse reflection on law and order// – YB Kit.

    The expression “yielding to pressure” seems warranted considering:-

    · police did not engage the crowd ;

    · when Dang Wangi police chief “was asked why he did not disperse the crowd in view of the security threats”, he said “if we were to take action, nobody will be safe here,” he said ostensibly for reasons that the initially passive crowd had turned more aggressive as the demonstration wore on.

    Source : Malaysiakini report under title “300 protest Bar’s ‘conversion’ forum” filed by
    Andrew Ong | Aug 9, 08 9:41am

    It is noteworthy that the protesters were estimated to be only around 300 compared to at least 5000 in the Hindraf’s demonstrations.

    Well Hindraf’s demonstrators were in Mahatma Gandhi’s civil disobedience style largely orderly and not aggressive : yet they were met by water cannons.

    The much smaller crowd of 300 protesting against the Bar Council forum were supposedly initially passive turning more aggressive – same Malaysiakini’s report.

    However according to News Flash, 2 threads ago, “police accompanied a few of the protestors into the Bar Council forum to observe proceedings, five minutes before the forum was to have abrupt end at 10 am” on police’s advice.

    What’s the moral of story then?

    When demonstrating, make sure you are not passive but aggresive because when you’re passive, you will, like Hindraf’s demonstrators, be shot with water cannons but if you are aggresive like the 300, you will be rewarded by having the objective of your demonstration – to stop the forum – attained with authorities’ asistance all in the name of public security and safety.

    Malaysia Boleh!

  24. Quote dawsheng & carboncopy:
    The Muslims did not force the non-muslims to convert to Islam.
    ===========

    Yes, however, the spouse and children of the convert falls into a legal mess. That’s what the forum trying to resolve. Not about how one converts, or should one convert, etc.
    ==========================

    True, true, true. or is it correct, correct, correct.

    nobody forces nobody to convert and at the same time one must act responsibly and know what he is getting himself into before he converts. worse, being irresponsible affects the children and/or others.

    The message is that to ‘Think twice before you leap’ in this issue.

    IMHO, religion divides and Malaysia is a fine example! So, to each, let’s keep religion private.

  27. gundam says:
    no discussion, no improvement, dead end.

    =======

    not necessarily so. we discuss what builds BUT try to avoid what destroys. It is quite clear today that we are not ready nor prepared for it yet.

  28. Agreed, as Freddy said, one “must act responsibly and know what he is getting himself into before he converts” so everyone should bear the consequences of his own action but if one’s action adversely and unfairly affect a significant other who is without fault. Like for example a husband initially married on promise of monogamy under civil law to a wife relying on that promise, and wife marries on the premise of secular law inclining to favour a woman with custody of children if marriage breaks down and to circumvent these arrangements entered into the husband converts to enable to take more than one wife and to take the children away to be brought up as Muslims : is that fair to the other (wife) who has not converted? When she seks redress, he is told that article 121(A) provides that Sharia will aply, civil law takes back seat, and husband will have his way contrary to all earlier solemn arrangements he has entered into to build around a family life with the wife. Is the process of law fair to wife?

  31. grace Says:

    I am saddened by the fact that the leader of the protest group is a PKR Assembly man with PAS youths.
    ========
    Be optimistic, grace. i’m actually glad that the leader of the protest group was PKR rep with PAS youths. Imagine, just imagine ….

    the protest group was a UMNO thug …..

  35. In order to bring the people together to promote harmony & unity, the Federal government should have organized such forums years ago.
    But this is hardly a good time for Bar Council to have one. Having said this, this is also not a good time for Penang CM to have any debate with Ex CM. I think there are more important priorities at hand.

  36. From Racism to Satanism
    1. If anyone thinks as a Malaysian at heart you will never support any of the current political parties who speaks only about championing or protecting their own race and religious interests. Whether it comes from UMNO, PAS, MCA, MIC, PKR, Gerakan, Hindraf, PBS, DAP, PPP or whatever new name it’s called racism and whoever supports that party is called a racist. It is no different from apartheid. It dirties and poison your soul.
    2. Those who are racists but speak with a fork tongue (Jeyklls), hiding it behind other causes like religion, meritocracy, education, poverty etc are even worse than clear cut racists and can only fit into the category of satans.
    3. Malaysian racists and the MSN have corrupted the following words which meant differently in other countries ex. nationalism, patriotism, royalists, freedom, liberty, corruption, democracy etc.
    4. Power, Greed and Selfishness rule in Malaysia and now we include Racism and Satanism.

    More facts at http://patek1472.wordpress.com

  37. gundam Says:

    dear freddy,

    if we dun start a discussion at all in the first place, how do we know wat ‘builds’ and wat is not?
    ===========

    clearly today, the bra council forum is disastrous and hints of coming violence. ambiga’s old house that was sold to sharizat was ‘bombed’ and the cause was suspectedly linked to this forum. feel the heat around and you may perhaps realise that it’s hotter than summer and closer to hell.

    dawsheng is correct, correct, correct to propose setting priority right and clean up the judiciary first. yes, dawsheng’s proposal is one that will build.

    btw, oil at US115 per barrel and works out to be around RM2.69 a litre market price inclusive of delivery. Mana subsidi kerajaan? Now, we the consumer subsidises the BN government!!

  38. dear freddy,

    u should view it as a ‘positive’ feedback, at least someone is dared to speak up.

    there mst always be a ‘pioneer’ to start a revolution.

    do not fear against oppression and unjust. ready to sacrifice ourselves if we r serious abt winning the war with the imbeciles and evils.

    dun forget tat LKS’ dog was poisoned too. shall he withdraw from the struggle then?

  40. “I am not denying anyone of their rights but let us get the priority right and clean up the judiciary first, if the judiciary is in a mess, everyone is in legal mess.”

    dear dawsheng,

    tis forum actually serves as the cleaning up of judiciary in process.

  41. There is great differences between one being a pioneer to start a revolution and one being completely unaware of the nature of subject and its implications one try to revolutionize, moreover when one is lawyer and the leader of the Bar Council. This is not a popularity contest for god sake, even it is, do the right thing, not stupid things! The debate should be in court, not in a public forum, where justice is concern, the showdown is between the Bar Council and the judiciary, and not the muslims and non-muslims.

  42. gundam,

    what good is a hero if he is dead? isn’t this a general saying?

    the ‘revolution’ in Malaysia is already taking shape but it is not a bloody revolution. we are peace loving man!

    we need peaceful means. that’s because the opponent is a MASTER in using force and brutality. one voice, that’s it.

    we have the power of the vote!

    to boh-liao,

    what we need is the existence of a two-party system. if we continue to think negatively that PR will not be better than BN because of Zulkifli Noordins, we will never be able to move forward.

    coming to such a stage where the opposition is at its best opportunity to create such a scene, we must back it no matter how. we need to end BN hegemony.

    either we make 2020 successful or allow 2020 to be a BANKRUPT MALAYSIA!

    Hoi BN …. TURUNKAN HARGA MINYAK HARI INI JUGA!!!!

    Oil at US115 per barrel equals market price/pump price of RM2.69 per liter!!!

  43. dear freddy,

    it’s nt abt heroism, it’s abt upholding the truth and freedom.

    good leaders are meant to serve and ready to be sacrificed for the truth. tat’s their destiny.

    dear dawsheng,

    im nt sure abt ambiga’s mentality bt i do believe tis kind of ‘debate’ will nv take place in a court.

  44. gundam,

    truth and freedom must come responsibly.

    can one actually handle the truth? at the same time, one must stay focus in his objectives. what’s the main objective here in its priority list? What’s PR for? Let’s not miss the forest for the trees.

    Hari ini membentuk kerajaan, esok turun harga minyak 70sen!!!

    Let’s vote for him who can bring down petrol to RM2.00 a litre while the current market pump price is at RM2.69.

  45. PKR should haul up Zulkifli and ask him to apologise for the demo at the Bar Council. To move forward PKR must distanced itself from UMNO who only uses Religion to split us Malaysian, If he didn’t apologised strong disciplinary action must be taken. Further more Zul should join in the discussionas he is a lawyer himself. There’s no difference in him and SIL..

  46. At long last the true face of several PKR MPs have been revealed. And I am speaking of none other than PKR MP for Kulim Bandar Baharu – Zulkifli Noordin. It seemed such a long time ago when I sent messages back to Kedah asking people to support Zulkifli against the UMNO ‘burn down Chinese Hall’ racist (forgot his name). Well this time I know better, come next general election I know EXACTLY what message to send back to Kedah! The UMNO fellar has already been punished, but the PKR fellar has not yet been punished.

    And it has emerged that dear Zul is a member of the conservative Muslim Lawyers group PEMBELA, if you would remember was also one of the signatories of a controversial memorandum calling for supremacy just before the elections. Coincidentally, another of Anwar’s lawyers is an active member of PEMBELA – Zainur Zakaria, whom also labeled HINDRAF as terrorists and traitors. Wonder what Zul thinks of PEMBELA’s stand, seeing that he benefit from HINDRAF’s support in Kedah?

    According to Malaysiakini, Zul joined the UMNO agitators on calling the mob to storm the Bar Council, in his own words “If you don’t hear from us at 10am, you should all storm the building”. Unlike PAS which called for calm and asked the mob to sit in front of the road till the forum is ended, no calls of REMPUH from PAS, but oh yes REMPUH from UMNO boys and ex-UMNO boys in PKR.

    And if you bothered to visit Zulkifli’s blog and read his posting titled ‘Islam di hina’, one would not have been surprised if the blog was written by an UMNO agitator. In his own words:

    “Saya melihat akhir-akhir pihak-pihak bukan Islam bertambah biadap didalam tindak-tanduk mereka dalam hal berkaitan Islam & bangsa Melayu.” (Spoken like a true blue UMNO boy)

    “Saya juga meminta para peguam Muslim supaya kita segera membuka mata mempertahankan Islam. Mungkin sudah tiba masanya kita peguam Islam berusaha mengambil alih Majlis Peguam.” (Watch out for the conservative Muslim lawyers takeover of the Bar Council soon – god forbid! Bar Coucil you have been warned!)

    “Saya juga memberi amaran kepada Majlis Peguam khasnya dan golongan bukan Islam umumnya supaya jangan mencabar hak umat Islam. Kesabaran umat Islam ada batasnya. Kamu mungkin melihat umat Islam di Malaysia ini kelihatannya lemah. Mungkin kamu sedang mengambil kesempatan melihat kedudukan umat Islam yang kelihatannya lemah akibat percakaran politik sesama kami.” (So bang Zul what is the solution, gabung with UMNO ya?)

    “Tetapi ingatlah disana ada umat Islam yang sedang memerhati gelagat kamu. Kami tidak teragak-agak mengambil tindakan tegas terhadap kamu sekiranya kamu terus-menerus dengan sikap provokatif kamu.” (Threats by our wonderful PKR MP – another Ezam in the making this Zul).

    And there you have it. Remember 5 years later, what each and everyone should do. It’s all about sending a message (through democratic means), a means that seems lost on Zulkifli Noordin, 1 term PKR MP for Bandar Baharu Kulim!

  47. dear freddy,

    the dialogue took place in a controlled and constructive manner, by holding it in a closed setting and by requiring participants to register for the event.

    now someone is getting death threat. who’s irresponsible here?

  48. gundam,

    we are all frustrated. but being frustrated doesn’t mean we must lose our cool. we need to work things out in a civilised way in an uncivilised society. we need not be irresponsible just because the other party is irresponsible. though we want to appreciate everything good in an idealistic way, we should not be stirred into becoming the bullies and the hooligans.

    It is not the way that makes a man BUT it is man that makes the way!

  49. perhaps PKR’s zulkifli was doing just what his boss wanted him to do. have you guys missed out or forgotten that anwar ibrahim himself agreed with najib that the forum shouldn’t be held? still want him as PM? he’s not a PM for all races!

  50. dear freddy,

    my point is, we didnt lose our cool. we did everything according to the law while someone else did nt.

    yes, we need someone to show us the way, hence the ‘pioneer’ and ‘forerunner’ mst be ready to sacrifice themselves for the right cause.

    sacrifice doesnt mean violence.

  51. My earlier comment was deleted ..We blame the MAIN STREAM MEDIA for being bias.ON that later…
    As long as MIC MCA PPP and KERAKAN are still in BN.More body snatching will occur,More people will use the shariah courts to their advantage.
    This forum is not about MUSLIM or MALAY rights but the rights of non MUSLIM who are forced to attend SHARIAH COURTS.

  52. You know its sad that we are not brave enuff to handle such mature topic. Its only obvious that they (Malays) are afraid to handle the matter at hand.

    Sorry but the day they can handle this situation (matters of islam/conversion) then they would be able to see the world in a different ‘perspective’.

    Only in malaysia you are forced to convert when you marry a muslim. In other countries…not so.

    SAD SAD SAD SAD

  54. PKR, DAP & PAS,
    Before any of you make a go it alone move, make sure you think trice because you may be hurting PR (yourselves) in the end. If you want to make a protest, just send your PR coalition pressman.
    As it is, PAS may have scored a win in the battle over the Bar Council but you may well have lost the war to UMNO. You have just succeeded in making non muslims VERY AFRAID to vote for you (PR). In one word – SILLY!

  56. It’s UMNO’s plot, If PKR or Pas doesn’t show up UMNO will tell the Malays that both parties are selling out to the non-Malays.

    Ambiga, your timing for this forum is questionable with all the political mess flying around in the country esp. the impending P.Pauh by-election.
    I wonder what UMNOputras have offered you for them to spin Ketuanan Melayu news in the MSM & TVs
    Job well done UMNO should award you a Tan Sri’s title or an air ticket to Switzeland!!

    BAR Council, thank you for betraying the Rakyat.

  57. imposter or not, Anwar better get to the root of the issue cos it is going to cost him non malay support.

    that PKR guy made lot of racist statements and many want him disiplined. And DAP better stand up and voice ur concern, dont be like a lame duck MCA or MIC

  58. Gundam,

    it doesn’t mean we’re weak if we turn the other cheeks. i may not be a christian but i think there’s something in this holy book that said if someone slaps you, turn the other cheek for him to slap or something like that.

    what i’ve been emphasising today is the crack within PR that is showing by the day. the seeds of discord has been sown and it may eventually break up PR and hence the end to the dream of any reality of a fruition of a two-party system.

    a dead man doesn’t tell a lie, they say. from my viewpoint, when bodowi publicly announced that there were secret talks with PAS, i gathered my opinion that it was a concerted effort to sow such seeds of distrust. while some called it a double-edged sword in this revelation, i wonder why the components in BN such as MCA, MIC, gerakan and the rest are keeping cool. they know that it was a failed attempt to BUY over PAS.

    in due time, we shall unearth the truths as to the demonstrations today. already there are suggestions that this pkr’s bugger could be ….. well … (you use your own words to complete my sentence)

    we can champion the ‘pioneer’ and the ‘forerunner’. we can cheer them on. but there are times when we need to pause or to take a step back in order to keep going.

    i still believe that the opportunity still exists for the emergence of a two-party system so that the rakyat can move forward together as one.

    hence, for the sake of Malaysian Unity, I will readily support PR in its KETUANAN RAKYAT rather than the racist BN’s KETUANAN MELAYU.

  59. what the fuss? It is just a discussion to close the gap between 2 laws. What’s wrong to close the gap so that there is no dispute later when comes to certain matter? This is call system improvement. After the discussion, then propose the solution for review. If there is a dispute, then work out together lah. What’s fuss? When i see today’s situation, it links my thought back to those ancient day. Still remember one philosopher was punished fire burning because he claimed that there was nothing after the sky( people/authority beleive there was a god’s place), and ironic that it has been proven that today, it is just the cosmic after the sky. Our people mentality is a problem when come to religious. Vision 2020? too far for reaching…

  62. they cant have a dialogue/discourse like true gentlemen, no points to counter the points raised by Subashini/ Shamala/Moorthy cases.

    they can only shout “babi, babi, babi, balik china, pengkhianat ” and the participants…….really shows how far they have come the past 1400 years

  63. “Malaysia has failed a major test in nation-building to demonstrate that we are shaping up to be a more civil society where sensitive issues of inter-faith problems can be discussed in a mature and responsible manner to promote national unity and religious harmony in the country.”

    unfortunately we have a long way to go, public maturity has not been parrallel with our infrastructure development, but nevertheless it is a hopeful achievement down the line especially in the younger generations who have been educated abroad, their mindset is a bit more liberal but for those bred within the nation, their thinking is very restricted and thus the backlash and exagerrated response.

    But one thing all malaysians should remember is to respect all race and religion and even islam teaches the fundamentals to live in peace with the rest, so the anger, profanity and so forth was uncalled for.

  64. Malaysia could have been superior in the region, if only we had inculcated meritocracy and disregarded any particular race supremacy. We could have been the forerunners in many aspects such as education, technology etc. The religious aspects should also be strengthened within their respective groups to promote good code of conduct in line with a learned and internationally recognised front which will enable us to mingle and interact amongst other nationals and be considered a dynamic nation to be reckoned with.

  68. If we look at history, the collapse of a great kingdom is because of its people.

    Similarly the collapse of any religion is also because of its people.

    People makes history and not vice versa.

  69. Beware! ..more to come, ISA, operasi lalang?

    Incident may be linked to Bar Council forum
    KUALA LUMPUR, Aug 9 — Two molotov cocktail bottles were thrown into the compound of Wanita Umno vice-chief Datuk Seri Shahrizat Abdul Jalil’s residence at Jalan Setia Kasih in Bukit Damansara here, early today.

    One of the petrol bombs which exploded contained a note, said Brickfields police chief ACP Wan Ahmad Bhari Wan Abdul Khalid.

    A Shahrizat family member said Bar Council Malaysia chairman Datuk S. Ambiga stayed at the house before it was bought by Shahrizat three years ago.

    “Maybe the suspects thought Ambiga still lives in the house,” he said, linking the attack to a protest against a forum pertaining to conversion to Islam held by the Bar Council today.

    Wan Ahmad Bhari said a security guard manning the house saw two men on a motorcycle throwing objects into the compound before he heard a small explosion at about 3am.

    “The guard discovered broken pieces of glass and a note and a police report on the incident was lodged at 7.10am. The petrol bombs landed under the porch,” he said.

    Shahrizat and her family members were asleep when the incident happened

    Wan Ahmad Bhari said police found broken pieces of glass and a burnt mark at the scene but had yet to make any arrest and ascertain the motive of the attack.

    In Butterworth, Shahrizat said she was shocked when she learned about the incident this morning before leaving for Penang.
    “I was told it has something to do with the forum. Police are investigating the incident. We must deplore any form of violence,” she told reporters after meeting Permatang Pauh Umno election machinery campaigners here today. — Bernama

  70. The incident has again affirmed the public perception that there’s a set of laws for the general public and another set for the UMNOputras[though in this case PAS was also involved]
    So, those of us who hoped for a more civil and democractic society will see once again the negation of its formation.
    For, the police another nail to their image of professionalism and impartiality in upholding the law.

  71. I believe PKR and PAS owes Malaysian minorities a clear explanation as to what were their actual thoughts in supporting a protest and trespassing into the Bar Council building.

    They owe it to minority Malaysians who have voted for them overwhelmingly on March 8 in part because of religious conversion issues to come clean and express their clear stand on the issue so that minority Malaysians can reassess their relationship with PKR and PAS.

    The conduct of people like Zukifli Noordin should especially be examined because it is immensely doubtful if Malaysia could move forward with its reformation agenda under Pakatan if personalities like him insist that certain topics cannot be discussed even behind closed doors, because one sensitivity will lead to another and we are back to square one.

    The Bar Council may have been cowed, but I have more respect for Ambiga than any other politicians in Malaysia today.

  72. It is really painful to admit of what happen this morning at Bar council. It’s a disgrace of my races and religion.But to say it’s 100% mistake by my races, I don’t think so. If i were a Bar Council, I would probably just make close discussion between non-muslim and address any highlights that could be brought forward into inter religion discussion. For me, Racism is term that created by those *** so called intellectual from the west to actually simulate the hate of Jewish as presence in World War II. This jewish create that kind of term and eventually spread globally.Simply meaning, if I had a problem with Ah Seng, the Satan will voice those whisper that said “because he is Chinese”. But why when I had a problem with Ahmad, the Satan didn’t said to me ” because he is Malay”. This is because Ahmad is the same race with me.So the Satan will tell me let say “because he is jealous with you”. Eventually, when we have a problem among races, the first thing comes would be a racism hatred and because why? Because we are all had been set-minded with the **** so called intellectual genius from the west that created those racism or xenophobia terms.It’ all being plant in our head without our noticed years by years. So I hope those Bar Council and all the big boys from political parties could think about what I wrote here.Islam is a peace religion. It’s always does. The only problem is only Prophet Muhammad can do that and only few of them nowadays who actually followed the complete teaching as He taught that includes the big boys in BN, PKR and even the jubah+ketayap+serban guys from PAS. I don’t want to comment much about the riot of my races or the disobedient of Bar Council to cancel the forum. Everyone at the top have their own agenda or intention.

    P.s: I wouldn’t worry much about any conflict between Islam, it’s being warned that it will and must happen and it’s a destiny that has been written in Al-Quran. But what I do worry much is our multi-racial peace that seems to torn apart by those **** so called intellectual that created many virus such like capitalist or anything else that actually blindfolded us for a centuries. Lastly, send my universal middle finger to those “penjajah mat salleh” who actually responsible to spread their idelogy of separating Malays,Chinese and Indians.(Please read our Sejarah textbook at school, most of us should know or maybe we forget?).

  74. The plan demonstration has an advantage. The UMNOputras top guns have already given their “blessing” by way of comments. So they can be aggressive because the police are also aware of the ‘support’ of the unseen hand. So what they did was to the wishes of the UMNOputras! The so party that will be irrelevant come Sept 16. But there seems to be some involvement of PK & PAS members.???

  75. agree truly with hiro,, i think i respect ambiga more than the others now..i dont think she’s an UMNO goon..she was just exercising her rights to freedom of speech. shame on fanatics like zulkifli. How can he even become a MP if he is so immature? and last but not least, PKR and PAS somewhat has made the non muslims fools, by just using us, and then turning their backs on us..first it was tht ketuanan melayu, then malay unity talk(if such talk can be held, then why not the bar council forum?) ..double standards practised..when it was hindraf, they shot water cannons, when its the malays, they said it was a peaceful gathering only!

  76. YB

    FRU…… why’s the tear gas, the water cannons, batons shields + the Isa for good measures. Remember the Hindraf march + the Cheras Mahkota episode?

    In Malaysia we practice Racial + Religious tolerance. Ya, we tolerate them.

    Come on you moderate Muslims, come out + defend your faith. Don’t let a few who have narrow mindset smear your good name.

  77. YB ,you failed to mention that PAS and Keadilan members were among the culprits that disrupted the forum. We thought the PR people are different from the umnos. Don’t let us entertain any second thoughts. Anuar may lose some votes because of this.

  78. “Be optimistic, grace. i’m actually glad that the leader of the protest group was PKR rep with PAS youths. Imagine, just imagine ….
    the protest group was a UMNO thug …..”

    What difference does it make? No rationality at all.

  79. Funny. All the Muslims I know who have converted and married NON-Muslims have done so because they feel the religion is one of non tolerance.

    As a sideline observer, I notice a few things. The tenets of Islam are far more hospitable and tolerant compared to the fare they dish out here. Yes, I know they are less vehement than some of the their other Muslim counterparts…. the MILF ( no pun intended) immediately comes to mind.

    I am reminded that oppressed people, like oppressed religions seem to thrive on persecution. NOTHING else unites them more. Just look at what Hindraf has achieved for everyone.

    I think the country is torching the bedroom to spite the bedbugs. Anyone saw the FD rumours yet? See http://www.tranungkite.net/v7/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=10726

    I for one am sad that the SPINELESS police have the gall to say that if they do not accede to the mob’s intents there will be trouble.

    How can that be? Is that why our police are always so slow to come to our aid when danger is afoot? Why do they always come after the dust has settled? Why do I not remember the police ever recovering cash? WHy only drugs, bullets, parangs and drugs?

    sigh. On second thought. .. you can delete drugs from that list.

  80. It was okay for those who wanted to express their views to demonstrate but it was not okay for the Police to advise/pressurise the Bar Council to stop the lawful discussion and an to put an early end to the legitimate Bar Council forum activity.

    By doing that the Police today showed further spinelessness and their glaring unprofessionalism and unfitness in the law enforcement role.

    And those demonstrators today kicked democracy in the teeth and also defiled the great and merciful teachings of Islam. If I were to have blasphemously put on God’s shoes today I may have found that God had long ago washed His graceful hands of the entire stupid human race. And if at all I even tried to look at today from the visionary point of view of a great and kind Prophet, I would I think in all likelihood feel great disappointment and sorrow at some of those today who professed to be “Muslims” and who were supposedly representing Islam.

    And to that particular green-collared card-carrying member who said he was from UMNO and that he represented “Islam” – please Sir, whoever you are, do you mind if I throw up at your stupidity and hypocrisy? It is people like you that denigrate Islam.

    As to the Bar Council, their unquestioning (and not unsurprising)capitulation on a point of principle and a fundamental constitutional right to the spineless Police’s wrong and unprofessional easy-way-out advice is further glaring evidence of the general spinelessness and lack of critical thinking regularly exhibited ad nauseam by all manner of so-called Malaysian “professionals” who ought to know better and which sorry accumulated spinelessness has over the years, led to Malaysia being brought down to her democratic knees!

    All in Malaysia lost today. If any one thinks that any “problem” anywhere in the home, country, world or universe can be solved in any way other than through frank, open, brave and respectful discussion between rational, matured human beings, I suggest that you are either a cretin or someone operating under a hidden agenda of not really wanting to solve that “problem”.

    “Imagine Power To The People” John Lennon.

  81. Gundam,
    It is funny, as I read the debate here a number of things come to my mind. Is it appeasement or cooperation? Is it subservient or being patient? Is it blind loyalty or rationality? Is it lack of principle or being practical?

  82. Let me add my two cents worth. How did the Bar Council hope to get away with organising this forum and bring it to a successful conclusion? Do they think that the “Islamic fanactics ” are interested in a fair intellectual discussion to find the truth? Dato Ambiga, are you naive or what? Have you forgotten that we are a first world ( maybe ) in infra-structure but our mindset is still very, very much third world, and there are many in power, who wish us to remain so ( it is easier to rule wa!). Well at least you learned that today. We now know that not only do we have to change the gomen, but also the mindset of our people.

  83. Saya kurang faham dengan sikap2 anda semua.

    Kami orang2 Islam tidak pernah mempersoalkan agama2 yang kamu anuti..kami menghormati pendirian kamu..kami menghormati agama kamu…APA HAK KAMU ORANG2 BUKAN ISLAM UNTUK MEMPERSOALKAN AGAMA ISLAM YANG AMAT KAMI CINTAI INI ???Tolong berlaku adil dalam hal ini..wahai NON muslim semua…

    Apa yg ingin kamu bincangkan adalah mengenai AGAMA KAMI …Kami tidak pernah mempertikaikan agama kamu dalam segala hal…walau pun ada perkara2 dalam agama kamu sudah terlampau tahyul…kerana agama kami tidak mengajar tentang mencampuri hal yang bukan hak kami untuk berbincang…

    Tindakan kamu semua ini amat biadap dan tidak dapat diterima langsung…

    Kalau kamu ingin berbincang tentang sesuatu perkara yang kamu tidak ketahui sepatutnya kamu berbincang dengan orang yang tahu..Apa yang kamu tahu mengenai ISLAM hanyalah luaran sahaja.Sepatutnya kamu berbincang dengan ulama2 Islam bukan berbincang sesama kamu yang tidak tahu mengenai Islam.

    Jika begini lah sikap2 kamu terhadap Islam dan melihat kepada apa yang kamu lakukan kepada PAS di Pulau Pinang…PASTI pilihanraya akan datang KAMI PEMUDA2 ISLAM TIDAK AKAN MEMANGKAH KAMU LAGI!

  84. Hoi BN …. TURUNKAN HARGA MINYAK HARI INI JUGA!!!!

    Oil at US115 per barrel equals market price/pump price of RM2.69 per liter!!! – Freddy

    I have this strange feeling that those UMNO BN goons will reduce the oil price on Aug 25 – at the 11th hour before the PP by-election just to make the people happy with them. And after that, probably the following month, they will increase the price again. Posssible?? No??

  85. For protesters,
    Do you think God needs your protection?
    Do you think God can be challenged?

    Do you think you fully understand God?
    If yes, do you think you are on par with God?
    If no, why do you act and say on behalf of God?
    Either way you are challenging God yourself.

    You are not here to judge one another on behalf of God.
    At the moment you think you are right to do so, you are wrong.
    Let God judge. Not you!

  87. I see this topic of minor importance.
    Those who want to convert should be ready to face the consequences, including their children, dogs and cats.
    Or they can lari like Bala to outside boleh, where the laws no longer reach them.
    Perhaps this is more a problem with the Indian communities.
    Many Ibans and Kadazans are Christians, should we help them to convert back to their original belief?
    Many Chinese converted to Christianity and Buddism, should we also help them to convert back to Taoism (original Chinese belief)?

  88. “The police yielding to pressure ”

    ————————————————————-

    It is rather surprising, I thought the mata-mata were busy “protecting” Saifool’s anus. It all depends on where the pressure is coming from. If it is from the rakyat (the people who actually foot the bill for their salaries) then you can wait till hell freezes over. But if it from the corrupt warlords then they’ll spring in to action. Just look at the Bersih and Hindraf protests. If that wasn’t pressure from the rakyat then what is?

  89. “…..Dr Mehrun Siraj, an outspoken law lecturer at the International Islamic University and a former member of the Human Rights Commission of Malaysia (Suhakam).” – Malaysian Insider.

    Would this person be willing to speak to her faculty and University to allow this intellectual forum be held there?

    Or maybe at UM’s Law Faculty? Will / dare Rafiah allow this?

    And ask some VIP personality (not neccessary from the government) to officiate ?

    And what has happened to that “civilisational religion” thing especially about the pursuit of knowledge? Is it still alive and kicking?

  91. It is a very sad state that mobs ruled the streets of KL today exhibiting lots of hatred, anger and pronounced their religious arrogance. Such great hypocrisy from these people contradicting themselves. The best method to handle this situation is to avoid this topic at all costs till these particular groups develop their mindsets, that would only be possible through their next generation offsprings who’ll hopefully be exposed to a less retricted society in critical thinking.

  93. I tried very hard to refrain from writing any comment on this issue but frustration and anger has forced me to say very little. Little becos I need to reduce the stress on me from building.

    I am a muslim. So let no one have other ideas.

    Frustration becos finally even after fighters of human rights and justice, got so much ground in malaysian politics, riding on Pakatan, level headed malaysians are infuriated to find we voted wrong people to fight for our rights and justice. PKR Zulkifli Nordin was educated in New Zealand, yet he has not learned anything about respecting and revering other faiths.

    Frustration becos these so called muslim NGOs who were there are so ‘weak’ in their iman, there knew their limited knowledge of their own religion is unable to withstand any simple test. If they believed their religion was better, they should have participated in the forum and explain and give logic to the non muslims at least why Islam is not a religion of dispensing unjustice.

    Frustration becos, by demostrating and suggesting violence, there are out to prove once again that the misconception of the non muslim world that Islam dispenses violence, is a religion of no logic and it is so weak, if they speak to anyone from other religion, they might get converted. Is Islam so velnerable?

    Frustration becos Chinese Organizations asked non muslim voters to vote against the UMNO idiot who wanted to burn down Chinese Assembly Hall. It has has turned out the candidate they inadvertedly got people to support in the last elections, Zulkifli Noordin, turned out to be no smaller devil. What now chinese and Indian voters? He turned out to be a traitor. So you must be careful in voting next time. Next time when two devils stand in election, put up a donkey, we will vote it.

    Frustrated becos the UMNO gangster from GPMS, you know the President is Reezal Marican, Badawi’s secretary… he uttered.. ‘you Indian and Chinese.. go t hell’ ??????????????? Are we going to tolerate this type of wicked criminals? The non muslims has to stop members of their party UMNO to be voted out of each and every political seats in Malaysia, State n National. Start with Ptg Pauh. Any non muslim worth any salt should vote out or help vote out UMNO Candidates. Maybe Malaysia would be a better place for all.

    Frustrated becos Badawi Govt and their NGOs are misleading the people and creating chaos in the soceity. The participants were not challenging Islam. There were ‘educated’ muslim scholars and muslim laywers there to defend Islam or to explain the legal disparity and find a mutually acceptable way out of the predicarment. The NGO were jahils, more so those from PAS who have closed mind. These peoples attitude is a shameful for real muslims. I am sure even prophet Mohamed would be ashamed with these people attitudes. Didn’t he nogotiate with non believers at Hudaibiah? Have muslims never learnt anything?

    Frustrated becos these NGOs proved to be very jahil lot. They missed the point of discussion and made a fool of themselves and my religion. It means muslims are not capable of going thorugh an intellectual discourse. It is a shame to my faith attributed to Allah to surrender and cannot afford even a simple homily in the face of other faiths. My religion cannot be so weak. We cannot be so uncivilsed, so unreasonable, so unjust. I am ashamed.

    It was a public forum. If the NGO leaders had any brains, they would have taken the opportunity to dialogue and share their knowledge and experiences. Not resort to gangsterism. If Bar Council had bad faith, they could have closed door meeting among the non muslims … people from my religion cannot face test of other religions? It is a shame.

    The NGO’s and their supporters are those that will go to ‘hell’. wait and see..

  94. discussion should be done as close-discussion not open discussion like this morning.im oppposed to this.do you know that 95% of the participants were non-Muslims??? only 5% Muslims attended! There were NO representative from JAKIM,rep from Persatuan Peguam Islam or even Majlis Ulama.If BAR Council really wanted to discuss in a proper manner,they should gracefully invited official representative/thinkers from Muslims as well (eg Persatuan Peguam Islam).dont you think so? it was an imbalance discussion,its more towards provocation to Islam,as official religion in our beloved country.

    to those people who ‘hate’ PKR assemblyman Zulkifli Nordin or Pemuda PAS Salahudin.please dont say something like goldenscreen.remember also,PR didnt win last GE only when non-Muslims voted Muslims MP,but when Muslims voted non-Muslims MP!!! its a fact my dear friends.if you want to ‘send a message’ through democratic means,im glad to remind you guys.PR will collapse as well if Muslims wont vote for non-Muslims MP in the next GE.so be careful in giving opinions.freedom doesnt mean you can do or talk everything you like.

  96. PRESS STATEMENT
    NATIONAL MIC YOUTH COORDINATOR
    T.MOHAN

    THE MIC YOUTH STRONGLY CONDEMNS THE TACTICS OF IRRESPONSIBLE GROUPS IN DISRUPTING THE BAR COUNCIL FORUM ON CONVERSION TO ISLAM IN KUALA LUMPUR TODAY.
    THEIR ACTIONS IS A STEP BACKWARD TOWARDS THE UNITY AND RELIGIOUS HARMONY AMONGST THE VARIOUS RACES IN MALAYSIA ENVISIONED UNDER VISION 2020.
    WE ARE DISAPPOINTED WITH THE GROUPS FOR FAILING TO ALLOW THE DISCUSSION OF THE ISSUES OF INTER-FAITH IN A MATURE AND RESPONSIBLE MANNER.
    THE BAR COUNCIL HAS REITERATED THAT THE FORUM ON RELIGIOUS CONVERSION WAS NOT TO QUESTION THE PROVISIONS OF ARTICLE 121 (A)
    OF THE CONSTITUTION BUT TO ADDRESS THE CONFLICTS OF LAWS FACING FAMILIES CAUGHT BETWEEN THE SEPARATE JURISDICTIONS OF CIVIL AND SYARIAH LAWS.
    THE MIC YOUTH REALISE THE NECESSITY OF THE ABOVE FORUM AS IT WILL CLARIFY CONFUSION OF THE CONCERNED GROUP AND WILL BE A BASE FOR GUIDELINE FOR THOSE WHO ARE LOOKING TO CONVERT TO THEIR ORIGINAL RELIGION DUE TO THEIR PERSONAL JUDGEMENT.
    WE BELIEVE OPEN DISCUSSIONS AND DIALOGUES ON THE PROBLEMS ARISING OUT OF THE SYARIAH AND CIVIL COURTS SEPARATE JURISDICTIONS AND OTHER ISSUES TO RELIGIOUS CONVERSIONS ARE IMPERATIVE TO FIND SOLUTIONS.
    THERE ARE SO MANY CASES WHERE INDIVIDUALS AND FAMILIES WERE AFFECTED BECAUSE OF THE CONVERSION IN AND OUT OF ISLAM. MANY WHO HAD CONVERTED WERE ALSO IN A DILEMMA AS THEY WERE UNABLE TO REVERT TO THEIR FORMER RELIGION.
    WE STRONGLY BELIEVE THESE GROUPS SHOULD HAVE USED THE FORUM TO COME AND GIVE THEIR VIEWS INSTEAD OF ACTING HIGH-HANDEDLY AND FORCING THE CANCELLATION OF THE FORUM.
    WE ARE DISAPPOINTED THAT THE POLICE HAD ALSO FAILED TO TAKE ACTION AGAINST THESE GROUPS FOR STAGING DEMONSTRATIONS AND HAD INSTEAD ASKED BAR COUNCIL TO CANCEL THE FORUM.
    THE MIC YOUTH IS ALSO CONCERNED WITH THE STATEMENTS MADE BY CERTAIN LEADERS WHO HAD STRONGLY OPPOSED THE FORUM AS IT HAS CAUSED RESENTMENT AMONGST THE NON MUSLIMS
    THEY SEEM TO HAVE IGNORED THE FACT THAT THE BAR COUNCIL HAS ALREADY CLARIFIED THAT THE FORUM WAS TO ADDRESS THE CONFLICTS OF LAW.
    THEY SHOULD HAVE COME OUT WITH THEIR PROPOSALS IN ADDRESSING THE ISSUE OF NON-MUSLIM HUSBANDS WHO ABANDON THEIR SPOUSES AND THEIR FAMILIES AND CONVERT INTO ISLAM RATHER THAN TO STOP A LEGITIMATE FORUM.
    THE MIC YOUTH ALSO CALL ON HINDRAF TO PUBLICLY STATE THEIR STAND AS THE GROUP WHO OPPOSED THE FORUM WAS LED BY A PARTI KEADILAI RAKYAT MP. IS THIS WHAT HINDRAF GETS FOR SUPPORTING PKR IN THE GENERAL ELECTION?

    ENDS

  97. Sorry, I cannot agree with you fish-warezmasterz.

    A member of an Ulama association is not an ‘ulama’. They are not authority of Islam. The Govt knew about this forum. Jakim and Persatuan Peguam Islam also knew about this forum. Why they need to be invited? It was a public forum. They should have gone to defend their religion in the public forum. By the way, even Muslim lawyers are not an authority on Islam. There was one supposed to speak from JAWI. Why he chicken out? Are these people so ill and shallow educated, they cannot defend Islam?
    Or they are waiting to be paid allowance before they go there?

    The reason they were more non-muslims because they are the victims and they are looking for solution, not to fight !

    Nobody was provocating Islam. Islam cannot be wrong. Its the wrong beliefs attributed to Islam that is WRONG. And defending it is absolute stupidity. And defending it with violence makes it violently stupid.

  98. Freddy Says:

    Today at 17: 01.52 (6 hours ago)
    gundam Says:

    dear freddy,

    if we dun start a discussion at all in the first place, how do we know wat ‘builds’ and wat is not?
    ===========

    btw, oil at US115 per barrel and works out to be around RM2.69 a litre market price inclusive of delivery. Mana subsidi kerajaan? Now, we the consumer subsidises the BN government!!

    Now we have to wait 22 days till 1 Sept for new lower price. WTF.

  99. There were muslims in the forum. They were there to understand the situation, find a practicle situation and defend their religion. These are our present day heroes. They were there to defend and correct the misconceptions on Islam which is perceived to be a religion that is unjust and violent. We are potrayed as the ‘bad’ people, remember?

    And when there appeared a chance to correct the misconception, these idiot protesters had to spoil the chance. By the NGO actions, muslim and islam will increasingly be ‘condemned’ . This makes them, the protesters, as the real traitors of Islam. Isn’t Islam the peaceful religion? These can’t even sit down and talk in peace, what then do they know about Islam? Which other Islam faith then are these idiots talking about?

    Shame on you. Shame on Badawi. Is this your Islam hadhari?

  100. where is my massage ? takut ka ? mulai hari ini saya takkan sokong DAP LAGI. SAYA AKAN TERUS ANGGAP DAP RACIST. BIAR SUSAH DAN MERANA SEDIKIT DI BAWAH UMNO DARIPADA DUDUK DI BAWAH PERINTAH ORANG YANG RACIST UMNO=DAP SAMA JA.

  101. It is worthwile to go over some of the problems arising from conflict of laws (Shariah and Civil) in the context of conversion.
    1. The constitution allows all Malaysian freedom of religion, but Muslims leaving their religion are in effect persecuted through requiring them to undergo compulsory re-education in circumstances where their personal safety in not guaranteed (Lina Joy is an example);
    2. The non-muslim wife of a man who converts to Islam in effect loses the right to continue to educate her children in the wife’s non-muslim religion, because the convert manages to convert the child secretly to Islam (The Syamala/Subashini situation).
    3. The conversion of a married person into Islam is kept a secret until it is too late for the non-converting spouse to exercise her right to question the legitimacy of the conversion of her spouse (The Murthi situation). Such secrecy also aids the converting spouse in seeking to convert children of the non-Muslim marriage (The Syamala situation);
    4. The non-Muslim spouse’s remedy in the civil courts has by judicial interpretation, been abolished by Art.121(1A): that non-Muslim spouse must now submit herself to the jurisdiction of the Shariah Court which is unlikely to declare a converted, living spouse/child to be a non-Muslim;
    5. Now, the injustice – I’m sure sincere Muslims themselves recognise that there is injustice as stated above – has to be discussed. The embarassment of Muslims at the present situation
    should not be a reason to avoid discussion of it.
    6. As to the proper forum, I am not sure how the discussion should be held, and would welcome comments from our commentators as to this.

  102. I just have one comment to make. Non-muslims who intend to marry muslims must know and accept the [deleted] syariah “laws” of the country.

    If you marry for love and will accept all consequences of permanent conversion, even though if the union ends up in divorce or separation, then convert.

    If you cannot accept this, then think a 100 times before you make your decision to convert. It is better to sever the relationship before you make the commitment. Nobody is to blame if, knowing the consequences, you decide to convert. Blame yourself and don’t expect sympathy from the people.

  103. antiracist, this is a blog so don’t expect any ‘massage’ aromatheraphy or otherwise here. If you mean ‘message’ then why don’t you repost minus all obscenities and stick to the topic. Definitely it will pass moderation.

    If that fails then please check your internet connection. This is not chedet.com where censorship is strict.

  104. I deplore the Bar Council’s mule headed decision to go ahead and hold this forum at this critical junction in our nations political development. There is so many other issues that need to be tackled, deaths in police custody, conditions in our prison condition, ISA, OSA, standards of legal education in local uni’s. I’m inclined to agree with Zulkipli Noordins call for the bar council to have a more representative management committee, i still cant believe the opportunity that Ambiga lost when they hosted the PM earlier, where instead of bringing up the issue of ISA detainees they practically praised him for doing piecemeal for wronged judges. I also hope YB Karpal Singh doesnt come out with his holier than thou statement on this matter to further complicate things. DSAI must win convincingly in Permatang Pauh, pls dont give ammo to BN

  105. I find that the recent crisis afflicting non-muslim spouses and children very disturbing and a torn in the flesh that could provoke further racial clashes if it’s not dealt with efficiently. Before I comment further,lets evaluate some of the teaching of Islam on this matter so that we can have a better perspective of the issue at hand. If any Islamic scholar thinks that my facts are wrong feel free to correct me as I’m trying my level best as a non muslim to understand your religion better.

    In any case the heart of the matter is that children born of Muslim lineage will be considered Muslims and according to Islamic law the door of apostasy will never be opened to them. If anyone of them renounces Islam, he will be as deserving of execution as the person who has renounced kufr (Infidels or Apostate)to become a Muslim and again has chosen the way of kufr. Next ,lets look at how this Islamic teaching first started. During that time Islamic revolution occurs within the Muslim population and people who in belief and practice have defected from Islam and wish to remain as defectors should formally disclose their non-Muslim identity and leave the social order within a year from the date of the notification. After this period all those who are born of Muslim lineage will be considered to be Muslim, they will be subject to all Islamic laws, they will be compelled to perform the religious duties and obligations, and then whoever steps outside the fold of Islam will be executed. Following this announcement utmost effort should be made to save as many sons and daughters born of Muslims as possible from the lap of kufr. Then whoever cannot be saved by any means should be cut off and cast away, sadly but firmly, from his society forever. After this act of purification a new life for Islamic society may begin with only those Muslims who are dedicated to Islam.

    You can say about a person who initially was a non-Muslim, then chose Islam and thereafter chose kufr again, that he knowingly erred. Why did he join a community religion, knowing that its door of departure was closed to him? But it is a somewhat different matter when a person himself never accepted Islam but Islam naturally became his religion by virtue of his being born to Muslim parents. If such a person, having arrived at the age of discretion, is dissatisfied with Islam and wants to leave it, it is a terrible injustice to compel him also to remain in Islam and subjecting him to Islamic laws. This extreme law appears even more unfair if only one of the parents is a muslim.

    Having a forum to discuss on this issue is not a challenge to the Islamic religion . Many non muslims whom spouse converted to Islam without their knowledge are left without legal means to address their grievances. Is it fair to ask them to seek justice in the syariah court ? This issue needs to be resolve soon and fast by the present government before its too late. Lets discuss about this together with the Islamic authorities and hopefully some solution can be found to address this dilemma . We live in a multiracial and multi religion society and whatever differences should be handle with care and upmost priority especially those related to religion . Sweeping this issue under the carpet is not an option and protesting against the forum is not helping either. Lets sit down together and discuss this issue in a civilized manner and consideration on the sensitiveness of each other religion and find an amicable solution to this issue for the sake of every citizen living in Malaysia.

  106. fish-warezmasterz, well said..that is why after today each and every right thinking non-Muslim should be thinking of a Plan B for their future, which does not necessarily entail running to other countries. If people cannot get justice or dignity through the political system whether government or opposition, then it is high time we started thinking outside of a political viewpoint and more towards a social viewpoint.

    Contrary to your assertions, it has nothing to do with freedom but with dignity. You might ask the Iraqis that, with their new found made in USA freedom, what they think of the Yanks.

  107. A godly religion has been made into a mockery by some un-nurtured Muslims in Malaysia. The whole conversion to Islam is nothing but a plot by these Muslims. What glory and harmony one could get by secretly converting a person to Islam without the knowledge of his family members. Which godly religion allows one to be an accomplice and instigator to someone who has decided to cheat his parents, siblings, wife and children.

    No where in the world we have such situation. Instead of spreading the goodness of their faith to make non-Muslims to respect they are doing everything under the sun to dislike and hate Islam. I hold this group solely responsible for non-Muslims’ fear and dislike. I’m also perplexed how easily ordinary Muslims could be exploited by the few people who wear turban and speak a few Arabic versus claiming they are the twin brother of god.

    I really sympathize with them!

  108. Captain, your frustrations are much justified. However the demo today transcends religion. It is political opportunists that took centre stage today. There is a by election coming. All politicians who are fighting for Malay votes will need to do something lest they lose out to their rivals. Similarly non-Muslim politicians also need to speak out in support lest their rivals do it and they don’t.

    Sad but true. Bar Council has gotten the timing wrong, deliberate or otherwise. As a result politicians muslim and non took the initiative.

  109. What happened today at the Bar Council Building is a shame on our police force.

    A discussion was taking place in a private premise.

    Demonstrators were outside. They threatened to storm the premises.

    Instead of dispersing the demonstrators, the police told the organisers to stop the discussion.

    It was an opportunity lost – lost at the hands of the 200 demonstrators.

    I cannot see the neutrality of the police. Another two hours of discussion at a private premises might have come out with some resolutions or proposals.

    But it was cut short. Why can’t the police disperse the demonstrators by telling them that if they should storm a private premises, they woud be trespassers?

    Maybe, in Malaysia, we should study LOGIC spelt backward as in CIGOL.

  110. The opposition is playing into the hands of UMNO! Take one baby step at a time! Leave the religion and religious issues alone for now until Pakatan takes over the federal government. This is not an election year. This is stupid of the Bar Council!

  113. undergrad2, I admit the timing of the forum s@cks. In hindsight it should have jointly organise this forum with a Muslim NGO. Or heck, even the topic could have been less sensitive and venue could have been more neutral. But what’s done has been done.

    However, what’s done has given an opportunity to the politicians to get a piece of the action. The real opportunists were in the crowd today and were also issuing press statements in support or opposition to the forum. They are all in one political party or another with either predominantly muslim or non muslim supporters. Everybody wants to say the politically correct thing.

    There were real life accounts of victims today. If the Bar Council is genuine in airing their grouses and also having an intellectual discussion about the state of the law in the country then kudos to them. But what the BC has not considered is, and I say this with a caveat that there is no ulterior motive on BCs part, their actions will mobilise a huge band of politicians seizing the moment. I’ll say it again : the timing, topic, venue and planning s@cks!

  114. Dear YB,

    Why you are not commenting on PAS and Keadilan who played the “main role” to stop this forum?

    A PKR YB even called the crowed to break in the building.

    Wich is more racial YB? UMNO who just tried to stop the forum, or PKR and PAS (2/3 of PR) who took their racial stand to the road??

    MIC have expressed their press statement on that matter via their youth wing as i posted above.

    Is it fair to aim all your ammos towards BN when the things are uglier in your camp?

  115. No, No, No… this is already too dangerous for all of us, at the WRONG TIME too. We have just begun to start working together – DAP / PAS / PKR… and Permatang Pauh is very near already. Who the hell suddenly came up with this lawyer thing trying to talk about ISLAM and put us all in this mess? Can everybody be very carefull in organizing things that may hurt others?
    Leave ISLAM and MUSLIM matters to be solved internally by all parties in PAKATAN RAKYAT and PAS is already very good in talking about this. How come suddenly all these unknown lawyer come forward and want to take over this sensitive job?
    Pakatan Rakyat can talk to each other ABOUT ISLAM CONVERSION in a special meeting in a near future, in our own FORUM – organised by us. Pls don’t allow other people to do this job for us. NOT EVEN UMNO (do they really understand ISLAM?)
    Please.. please… we have a lot of things to do now. Victory is already in our hands – very soon! Don’t spoilt it, for GOD sake…

  117. Pingback: mental jog

  118. At them moment, all muslim here in Malaysia are confused and shocked by this FORUM. Who approved it / authorised it and why it is held in that manner. ALL MUSLIM means even PAS and PKR and, of course UMNO, are confused by this move and therefore they object it. If you must blame PAS or PKR for joining in to stop this forum, then, i believe, PAKATAN RAKYAT must invite PKR and PAS to jointly resolve this problem in a special forum or in a man-to-man talk.

    Pls, stop blaming and accusing the other party in PR or else UMNO will be very happy to say that our team is already collapsed! By the way, is this forum is organised by DAP?

  119. Chinese who were victims of one-child policy or Falungong could gain asylum in the western world. For the converted muslims who have to reconvert, is there such a possibility of asylum in the western world?

  120. sirrganass, did you see any DAP leader at the forum? No it was a Bar Council forum to have a rational dialogue between Muslims and non-Muslims. And no we should not just sweep this under the carpet just for the sake of a meaningless victory in a by-election. You are in effect saying the same thing as UMNO say to MCA/MIC/Gerakan. Once appeasement starts, it will never end.

    And maybe you didn’t understand what the forum was about did you? Leave it to be solved internally by Muslims? Then what about the mother and daughter who had their property seized by the religious authorities, the mother whose insurance was confiscated by the religious authorities, and the pain of all the non-Muslim families when the religious authorities come knocking at their door? How to leave it to be solved internally when it is the non-Muslim families who are burned, hurt, cheated and robbed by the religious authorities?

    You all can go and stuff your meaningless and hollow victory down the toilet. Because that is all you are good for – hollow, superficial, surface victories. The time when you are ready to fight for victory on serious issues, on core issues, fundamental issues then we can celebrate. Otherwise why bother? We are just changing the personnel in charge of the system when what we should be concentrating on is changing the system.

    And why the rush to take over the government? Is it because Pakatan Rakyat is inherently weak and build on the weakest of foundations that it would crumble if it has to contest with Barisan Nasional for the next 5 years? Say what you like, but BN did win the election and form the government..who is Pakatan Rakyat to annul that election by forming a government through defections?

    And don’t bother to give your excuses on winning government through defections. After all Barisan Nasional also can play the same game. Then what would you say then, without making yourself a hypocrite? So easy is it you people sacrifice your principles for the short-term gain?

  121. m.hwang Says:

    Today at 01: 48.06 (2 hours ago)
    undergrad2, I admit the timing of the forum s@cks. … even the topic could have been less sensitive and venue could have been more neutral. But what’s done has been done.”

    You see, when UMNO starts beating the drums of narrow Malay nationalism (read: Muslim Malay nationalism) it puts everybody on the defensive – including their supporters. History shows that people made to think and feel that they are about to lose their rights, their core values and are put on the defensive will never stop fighting to resist any form of change. It is all about the defense of the status quo.

    What we are doing is to give them cause to beat those drums!

  122. “The Police failed in its duty when instead of upholding the law, they sided with the protestors in ensuring the abrupt end of the half-day forum at 10 am.” Kit

    You are assuming that PDRM (rather than just a police force whose primary duty is to maintain public order) is neutral. How could that be when the entire civil service has long lost its neutrality and has become an appendage of the BN machinery?? PDRM did not fail. It excelled in its duty.

  123. Zulkifli is not fit to be a leader and will cost PKR severe losses if he remains in the party. He has raised antircism sentiments towards the indians and chinese. It is very hurtful for his group of thugs to croak racial slurs yesterday, there was no need to utter “india cina balik and go to hell ” . This country would not be what it is today had it not been for their significant contribution. There is a huge exodus of non malays to australia,new zealand,europe and america since 2000 because of these sort of remarks. Mind you a significant brain drain, talented professionals who have had enough of this nonsence and have become residence in these contries that acknowledge merit based appointments and not race. Even america has recognised a black leader lately. These parties better brace up for the non malays have zero tolerance with these sort of uncalled for sentiments.

  124. PPl of PR, Pls pls, stop this centuries old ‘virus’ subject from getting out of hand. We are not there yet?
    Yes, I agree the timing s@#!ks,.
    I’ve mention before, if theres anything you read that do not
    help PR getting into New Government, Its a virus. This topic
    is one of them. Be patient lah..
    To see ppl issuing threats against individual in this blog shows you just how backward some ppl are. Know what? Some ppl just
    refuse to changed – LET GO!
    There are many more other stuff
    to improved. Im not implying to keep quiet, afterall, this blog
    is suppose to be “No hold bars?”. Its the timing, some of our bros have also mentioned it here. Lets be civilised and not Civil-LIES like others?
    For now, just take extra caution coz, the stakes are too high now.So closed…. pray for patient, strengths, peace, and wisdom to all our PR ppl.

  126. No reason for Bar Council to be blamed on “timing” of forum. It is a forum on issues pertaining to social justice and law (the Bar Council’s concerns). One can say its wrong timing when PR is making a pitch for Puterajaya. You can say this because some prominent PKR & PAS characters are amongst the 300 protesters generating doubts amongst PR’s suporters why this is so. However the fault lies not with a Bar Council which being apolitical is not concerned as to when is politically the right timing to have that forum. The fault lies with leaders /organisers of the 300 who wanted and succeeded to usurp the public space relating to a rational discourse on conversion cases and problems related to non muslim family members and to stop such a forum (even though it was close door and a lawful one) to demonstrate that their opposition to such a forum was of greater importance that, no matter how small their numbers, authorities would appease. They wanted to assert that their voices and views that such a forum should be stopped represented the views of all Muslims. The fact that authorities helped them stop the forum rather than disperse the demonstration proved and underscored their point that a vociferous minority waving the banner of religion could any time now and in the future always have their way in exerting influence on public opinion disproportionate with their small numbers and succeed in their objectives no matter the other side stopped was lawfully and rationally conducting themselves.

    Yes I agree that blaming the police deflects Pakatan Rakyat’s leaders – whether YB Kit or Anwar – of how to deal with elements within the opposition coalition playing the same religious card that they accuse the BN of. Indeed the whole problem of what to do with PAS has not been confronted, since all considerations have been placed on how to reach Putera Jaya without hitches than to address these fundamental issues of ideological differences between PR’s main component parties, the pervasive traits of political opportunism and religious fundamentalism within our political culture which BN has been blamed unable to address but regarding which the PR could do no better as the present incident affecting the Bar Council amply illustrates!

    It is not just a adverse reflection of law order/religious harmony – that is in large part true – but equally true is that it is relection that when PR’s members are involved in such unlawful protest and the PR leadership can do nothing about it – then it undermines PR’s credibility to criticise the BN leadership for failing to curb such extremist behaviour or even to fan and gain political mileage out of it.

  127. Take it as a lesson. One of the causes for the outrage was the wrong choice of words used. Sang Kelembai has a good piece on this topic.

    I think that certain parties are just becoming arrogant and being insensitive to the nature of Malaysian society that has been proven in history to be easily provoked.

  128. The Beijing Olympic opening ceremony was really an eye opener to the world.The spectacular and successful event was the culmination of the hard work contributed by the people and the liberal and pragmatic policies of the leadership.Countries that are obsessed with backward and foolish religious practices will never attain the progress achieved by the Chinese.

  129. Don’t the non-muslim citizens of Malaysia have a say when syariah courts in the country ram paritsan decisions down their throats?

    The syariah courts don’t have jurisdiction over non-muslims and civil courts do not accommodate any pleas of the non-muslims under the pretext that religious issues (read Islamic religious issues only) are out of their jurisdiction, where are the affected non-muslims to approach for justice?

    When civil courts wash off their obligations and duty to see justice is done, then the whole civil jurisprudence of the country becomes a travesty of justice.

    Why are the muslims in this country so scared that their religious rights would be compromised by having inter-faith forums or forums to discuss the religious rights of minority religions in the country?

    Nobody is usurping their rights that is already enshrined in the constitution as are the rights of non-muslims to practice the religion of their choice.

    I thought only UMNO has lost its ability to control its members when they are openly questioning and challenging the leadership. It looks as if PKR and PAS are in the same boat.

    The misguided PKR leader from Kulim and the PAS members who made bloody fools of themselves trying to portray themselves as the guardians of Islam in this country are not Malaysians but Malay-Muslim racist who do not understand the Malaysian Constitution and the rule of law.

    If Pakatan Rakyat does not control such bigots and take disciplinary action against them, it may find itself in the same quandary as the BN in the next elections and for that matter even in the Permatang Pauh by-elections.

    Politicians should stop playing to the gallery. Such short-sightedness does not solve problems but aggravate them.

    DON’T ABUSE THE TRUST PLACED IN YOU!

  130. The stand of all Muslims in Malaysia whether BN or pakatan is clear: Kafirs are not allowed to even TALK about their religion. We have to accept this, that our religious believes are in their eyes, false and we are to live as Dhimmis or convert.

  131. If after 50 years of independence – and after many many Malaysians of all races have become more educated and tertiary educated – racism and religious extremism have got worse about which neither ruling or opposition coalition could do much about – then what is there to say that for the next 50 years it would likely get better? I think it might get much worse!

  133. I am very disappointed with some members of the Bar Council for mishandling the issue of religious conversion, worst of all, to make prejudices against another religion, instead of uniting they divides Malaysian of all races and religions further apart.

  134. I don’t think Sisters-in Islam would say the forum organised by Bar Council was an insult to Muslim. If something that is inherently not insulting were deliberately construed for political leverage to be insulting by organisers of 20 Muslim NGOs opposing the forum, are we going to say that the judgment of those NGOs holds as truth (that something not insulting can be twisted to be insulting)? And further it may further be asked whether those 20 NGOs including GPMS, Kimma, Muslim Consumer Association and Muslim welfare group Pekida would represent the majority of Muslims in the country in their views? If it is conceded that they do, why don’t we appease and allow the implementation of all that these NGOs advocate? I am sure they advocate or at least not adverse to PAS’s establishment of the Islamic theocratic ala PAS version. If they represent majority, what is the problem in going along with them?

  135. The issue is whether those who for political mileage would construe every issue as either religiously or racially sensitive when it is not should be appeased and their views no matter contrary to logic or facts should be held in higher regard just because they are justified on some race or religious grounds. Who is arbiter and defines what is an insult or not – the organisations that say it is an insult? Is that all, is it a neutral and fair arbiter?

  136. Those muslims NGOs participating in the public forum to create awareness about Islam conversion should just bring the matter to Syariah and the Federal Court, testify in the court of law the injustice created by their own religion and be the witness of all injustice dispensed by the judge, if all avenues of legal means are exhausted, demonstrate there if they really care.

  137. This ZUL guy .. When he was campaigning he shook everybodies hands,At that time it did not matter if you were a fishmonger or a pork seller.He wanted our votes.
    Now that he had won the election his true colors are being shown.Another Malay muslim who gives a bad name to ISLAM.

  138. I have said before. dont trust PAS and exerise extreme caution with PKR since PKR are also ex-umno members. mindset serupa. they somehow have that fear and lack self assurance and confidence. china’s slogan 1 world 1 dream. malays racist slogan 1 malay race (ketuanan melayu)1 nation. thats is the undenialable fact. no such thing as multiculturalism. lets stop dreaming.

  141. As far as I know the so called injustices brought about by conversion cases are addressed by whether non muslim or muslim stakeholders concerned with the issues in forums like the one organised by Bar Council because there are simply no other avenues perceived neutral to arbitrate or adjudicate objectively and independently based on fairness. The normal recourse to civil courts has been blocked as existing civil courts’ decisions related to conversions have already deferred to the jurisdiction of Sharia courts by interpretation (or misinterperetation) of the purport of article 121(1)A of the Constitution. Neither government nor civil courts want to look into 121(1)A so that is why civil society, Bar Council and even Sisters in Islam would still want to discuss about the purport, interpretation and ramifications of this provision including unjust consequences to non muslim family members that 121(1)A has brought about. It is also not just an issue of who is right or wrong in interpreting 121(1)A. It is the attempt by intimidation and threat of demonstrations and violence to stop all rational discussions about it – never mind that these discussions canvass a broad spectrum of differing views – that is the worrying issue and portends ill for the country in terms of freedom of expression and the serach fopr balance and compromise via discussion.

  143. The opposition is playing into the hands of UMNO! Take one baby step at a time! Leave the religion and religious issues alone for now until Pakatan takes over the federal government. This is not an election year. This is stupid of the Bar Council! undergrad2

    i don’t buy it. If PAS and PKR could so vehemently go against BAR council forum now, what make you think that they will change their mind once they are in power? I still can’t see the logic of why some people are so worked up by the BAR council forum. There will never be a good timing no matter when.

  144. I have never always tried to defend the Bar Council. Besides maintaining standards of legal profession, its public role is broadly to maintain standards relating to administration of law in the country, which includes organising forums and discussions relating to legal and controversial issues like 121(1)A. It is not a party or litigant in conversion cases. It has not much influence on the government much less the courts or appointment of judges under purview of the government. The organising of forum that was stoped was very much part of itrs primary function. Ensuring Independence and standards of Judiciary is something that is within its function to lobby and speak for but not something within its control for it to be directly blamed where the Judiciary in terms of civil courts shirk from assuming jurisdiction over conversion cases.

  145. At this point, don’t you think ensuring the independence of the judiciary supersedes everything else its primary functions as required by the council such as organizing public forums etc, when, without an independent judiciary, can the Bar Council function at all?

  146. hahaha some people might think it fun to stir the hornet nest. it’s the awakening!

    “Sudah sampai masanya peguam yang beragama Islam mengambilalih teraju kepimpinan Majlis Peguam,”

    that’s what this Noordin chap said. well, i dunno the number of Muslim lawyers in Malaysia but i do know that the bn government will waste no effort in churning out the number in no time. guess local universities will become production factories to meet the objective of gaining control of the bra council in due time!

    hahahahaha seems ppl forget opportunists lurk everywhere and one small mistake it all it takes to end the game….

    game over ppl….

  147. don’t you think ensuring the independence of the judiciary supersedes everything else its primary functions ..dawsheng

    Tell us:
    1. Can the Bar council on its own ensure judiciary independence?
    2. If so, tell us how Bar council should do it (i.e. to achieve that independence you talk about)?
    3. i think you are talking without thinking.

  148. hahahahaha seems ppl forget opportunists lurk everywhere and one small mistake it all it takes to end the game….
    game over ppl….

    What exactly do you mean? Stay low and quiet and pretend nothing has ever happened for the next 50 years?

  150. What exactly do you mean? Stay low and quiet and pretend nothing has ever happened for the next 50 years?

    =======

    need it be so? who actually expected someone like Obama could actually be the next american president?

    the fact is that, we are not ready yet. root cause? UMNO has already tuned the certain segment of society to boss and to lord over the rest in its Ketuanan Melayu. i believe that the first step towards achieving a small degree of success would be to first back Ketuanan Rakyat strongly. anything else that’s done without tact nor patience may derail the whole thing and hence cement the whole segment of society to rally behind Ketuanan Melayu once more.

    we have waited and we have tolerated 50 years of ketuanan melayu. if the muslim lawyers, orchestrated by UMNO can eventually churn out the number to ‘democratically’ take over the bra council, i think we will all be crying louder than today whenever we hear the words correct, correct, correct!

  151. Ensuring Independence of Judiciary is probably the most important thing as you said because unless we have fair judges of intellectual merits and moral fortutidue to decide right , we’re done for : just like Olympic games, imagine the referees not fair!

    But doing something about the Judiciary is immediately govt’s call. Only now because of Lingam’s Enquiry Zaid is proposing some kind of Judicial Apointment Commission and even that final decison on judges apears vested in PM.

    For politicians to relent to demands of rakyat for fair and independent judiciary the conventional wisdom is that the rakyat (broad sections of it) wiould be vigilant about such issues and threaten the politicians that unless they implement the reforms, they won’t receive their votes next round.

    So ultimately it is gras rot pressures and education of gras roots oin what is important right and fair in a multiracial country is key without which how could real democracy take root?

    Bar Council is carrying out its primary function in organising such forum giving all stakeholders of such issues of whatever differing views an oportunity to discuss air and argue rationally the issues even pertaining to conversion cases. It is part of educating the rakyat process so that they could after discussing pros and cons pressure the govt to effect the real changes that are right and fair.

    So is the case of the Muslim NGOs opposing the amendment of 121(1)A. Even if you and I don’t agree with their position, I concede that they too have a right to construe that 121(1)A should be retained, and to even influence those who would hear them so that they could together lobby the government not to amend 121(1)A whatever its injustice.

    But they should not use threat of violence/public security and demonstration to stop the Bar Council’s forum.

    They are entitled to participate in forum though and argue their positions. But they should not stop those of contrary views from exercising their right to freedom of expression to try to educate the public another way.

    Of course these protesting NGOs would argue that Freedom of Speech is not unlimited but subject to sentitivity and should not be insulting to their religion.

    But the question is the content, nature of discussions, composition of participants insulting to their religion? Is not there an objective test that reasonable people can agree whether or not it is insulting or we must take their view for it?

    If interfaith discussions are insulting then why police gave permit to hold forum till 12 noon?

    Are we living in a totalitarian state where a section can tell another not to discuss because it is perceived “insulting” to a small vociferious section against all forms of discussion?

    I believe they are stopping the Bar Council from carrying out its primary function of promoting rational discussion on such controversial issues that surely canot forever remain buried on arguments that they are controversial or sensitive.

    Controversial and sensitive to who?

  152. aiyoh, what’s the title for the bra council forum again? isn’t it

    Conversion into Islam? or Memeluk Islam?

    that’s a very general and a very wide interpretation of its contents for those who may not be aware of its ACTUAL agenda. hence it can be easily manipulated to stir sentiments.

    wrong choice of words. timing bad. or to put it in perspective, let’s say UMNO wants to play the good guy today and to want to hold a forum to tell all its members to respect the other races especially the Chinese, due to the racial slurs hurled during the protest like ‘babi’, ‘balik Cina’ and the such ….. blah blah blah …. and then in its organising this forum, its subject title as advertised everywhere in radio, tv, newspaper, blogs etc etc etc …. carry simply 3 words ‘babi balik Cina’? Although no matter how noble UMNO wants to be, the subject title for the forum carrying these 3 words will of course create a temperature rising in this hellhole.

    now, sum it, no matter how noble, wrong choice of words can always be controversial and sensitive to all who come from different races and religions.

  153. We are not ready yet. Freddy

    Please tell me when we are ready. As I posted earlier, you choose one:

    Is it appeasement or cooperation? Is it subservient or being patient? Is it blind loyalty or rationality? Is it lack of principle or being practical?

    By the way, whether or not the Bar council organised this forum, there will be sufficient number to democratically take over the bra council in the near future!

    The issue in the country is not about the number. This issue is idea. Whose idea is more practical, enduring and vibrant? We should confront and challenge archaic idea and idea that has no place in modern time. A better idea should win even though it has initially come from the minority.

  155. The Bar Council canot be faulted for not caring about Judicial Independence. For one it has spoken and called for it. For two, Bar Council representatives were in the arena to participate in the Lingam RC enquiry (they cross examined even Mahathir) and the Commissioners eventually made findings questioning Judiciary independence.

    Regarding the forum, it was a lawful one for which police permit given. The forum itself is an expression of democratic right to freedomm of expression. It was public forum given police permit and hence lawful. All are allowed to participate.

    Is it right for a small minority to gather outside in an ilegal assembly threatening public security and even storm the building if the lawful forum inside did not stop because the topic was one the protestors did not like?

    What are illegal assemblers given more understanding and rewarded with what they wanted in stoping the forum in denial of those in the forum who have the law on their side (in terms of having police permit) and the constitutional right of freedom of expression on their side and the moral motivation of promoting justice in conversions also on their side?

  157. Police permit were given with motives, the notion that the forum was approved due to politically motivated agendas cannot be ruled out. Though a legitimate forum, the issue of discussion is one that easily misunderstood, the subject of religion itself contained more elements of prejudices in one way or another, whether one like it or not, the topic of discussion was in fact arises from that prejudice. In many country where these prejudices are prevailing, it ended up with hostility worst than just a group of illegal assemblers demanding am immediate stop to a public forum.

    Many of us here argued in the context of freedom of religion and the rights of minorities, where all the provisions are clearly stated and enshrined in the federal constitution, nobody can take it away from us unless we gave it away to others. The issues of Islamization that affect this country cannot be taken out of context and made become the basis of anything bad about Islam. Where is the end when the argument is about man made laws are better or God’s law practices by men are the best?

    Organizing such a forum to discuss about Islam converts and how their lives have suffered are not very clever discussion to begin with, it is also not a very good reason to call to defend when for example, peace and stability of the country, or transition of government is at stake, knowing that for certain, there are many groups waiting to exploit this golden opportunity, to strengthen their weakened position.

    The underlying consequences and the implications of this issue are not limited to the victims of Islam converts. When we said that there are victims, there must be perpetrators, so in this case, are we saying that the Muslims are the perpetrators, I hope not. So what when you have legitimate forum when in actual the illegal assemblers have more valid and legitimate reasons of their to own to force and end to this forum.

  158. Non Muslim rights started eroding since 1999 went Tun Dr M openly announced that “” MALAYSIA IN AN ISLAMIC STATE””.It is clearly stated in our constitution that “” MALAYIA IS A SECULAR STATE WITH ISLAM AS THE OFFICIAL RELIGION “”
    What did MCA MIC PPP and GERAKAN do.. NOTHIG NOTHING NOTHING.
    This forum got nothing to do with Malays or the rights of the muslim.It got to do with the rights of non Muslim who are effected with Islam.

  159. the funny bit is those hooligans ranted ‘balik china’ during the bar council commotion, little to their ignorance, the malays originated from china. so if want to balik, baliklah bersama. Don’t also forget the indian songkok, eating with hands, hinduism, sanskrit vocabulary all were once part of tanah melayu too. It’s hillarious when they shout in utter ignorance.

  160. Freddy Says:

    Today at 12: 35.37 (2 hours ago)
    ‘hahaha some people might think it fun to stir the hornet nest. it’s the awakening!

    “Sudah sampai masanya peguam yang beragama Islam mengambilalih teraju kepimpinan Majlis Peguam,”

    that’s what this Noordin chap said. well, i dunno the number of Muslim lawyers in Malaysia but i do know that the bn government will waste no effort in churning out the number in no time. guess local universities will become production factories to meet the objective of gaining control of the bra council in due time!’

    Although splinter groups of pro UMNO lawyers have tried before they have never enjoyed majority support. Muslims lawyers form a sizeable number in the Bar Council but fortunately for us a majority of them are thinking citizens who look down on the spineless UMNO who are only good when it comes to creating and distributing projects.

    Muslim lawyers are one ahead of the poltician goons of both divides who try to play up religious sentiments to gain support. For now this goon Noordin is only blowing hot air. In the BC he is nothing and has lost whatever respect that he had before, if any.

    This goon knows very well that it was never the forum’s intention to question the constitution, knows who the panelists and mediators were but still went ahead to ensure the Muslims get angry over something they have little or no information on. Noordin knows a lot of Muslims will just rely on what he tells them without checking the facts and looks like he got that spot on.

    However I am still of the view that the timing, venue, heading of the topic and organisation could have been better thought of first whereby this forum would have passed unnoticed. Next time get a Muslim NGO to jointly organise this forum. As they say there are many ways to built a house.

  161. So what when you have legitimate forum when in actual the illegal assemblers have more valid and legitimate reasons of their to own to force and end to this forum.dawsheng

    The illegal assemblers have more valid and legitimate reasons? How and What? Give me examples, otherwise these are rhetorical nonsense. You now even want to speculate why police permit was given for the forum. I am sure if no permit was given, you probably have lots to say also. By the way, who is talking about the bad of Islam?

    I think your primary concern is to safeguard the fragile relationship among the PR members. Never mind we trade in principle, value and belief, so long as the bond among PR members remains intact. I say this is nonsense. If they can’t agree now, they will be worse when they are in power.

  162. “The Muslims did not force the non-muslims to convert to Islam.”

    yeah right…..
    what planet are you from??

    many converts are pressured and compelled to convert as well as offerd ‘gifts’ if they convert (this applies mainly or solely to the poor)

    also dont forget 2 things:

    a) the law forces a man or a woman to convert to islam before they can marry their boyfriend or girlfriend who is a muslim

    MORE IMPORTANTLY
    b) many of these new converts unilaterally and forcibily convert children without their spouse or their own child’s consent. The spouse is also forced to seek justice at the syariah courts. And there can be no justice at the syariah court for a non muslim against a muslim trying to forcibly convert family to islam or for property etc because of CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
    non muslims cannot get inheritance from muslim family members

  164. Wither is Malaysia going?

    It is a glaring failure of the administration and its officials ( the prime minister’s office and the ministers ) to have not contributed positively to the open forum organised by the bar council.

    In fact it is a desertion of responsibilities of the highest order on their part.

    What’s wrong with discussing issues of importance to the public at large, more so an issue which would clear the air for Malaysians who are living in a pluralistic and multi-religious environment? It makes no sense that religious matters could not be discussed openly at all. It is as if a segment of the Malaysian citizenry has the sole and absolute right to a particular religion? Who says Islam belongs to the a particular ethnic group in Malaysia, or as if it was made to seem to be so all this while?

    To be sure, not one true religion belongs to any one particular ethnic group in the whole wide world, let alone any particular ethnic group in Malaysia. Unless it is clearly an ethnic-based creed (as opposed to a major revelation which is for the whole of humanity), and originated and practised by a particular people, no one can lay claim to a particular religion. To do so would run counter to the precepts an teachings of the religion itself.

    The administration should have come out strongly to encourage open discussions which would contribute greatly to better understanding among the various ethnic groups in the country. It was made clear that no attempt would be made to override any laws or principles outlined in the nation’s constitution. To do so would be irresponsible.

    However, the silence or indication that such open discussion would cause racial tension and unrest is illogical and nonsensical. Any right thinking individual would have thought otherwise. And to go with the uninitiated and those with ulterior motives that such discussions are dangerous smacks of stoking social unrest and misunderstanding itself. It is just akin to adding salt to the wounds on their part.

    How is the country to progress meaningfully and intelligently if such a basic and necessary discussion is not encouraged or allowed? Enlightenment could only be attained by treading the path of wisdom and sensible openness.

    Humanity had been through trials and tribulations to come to where it is now. And it was through questioning, inquiring, debating, querying and constructive arguing that learning and teaching could be effected. If there are wrongs, correct them.

    It seems that parochialism and opportunistic tendencies are the order of the day in Malaysia, and being abused by parties with ulterior motives. It seems that certain religious groups are also riding on such events to serve their own interest to influence the misguided and to perpetuate ignorance. What else could it be then?

    Malaysia seems to be headed to the dark ages with its current incompetency at the helm, as no leaders seem to have come out strongly to right the wrong. Wrong signals have been sent out. And it would take a stronger signal to quell the fire of resentment and misunderstanding that had been allowed smouldered.

    Selfish interest, parochial practices, racial discrimination and prejudice have no place in Malaysia. Let good sense prevail.

  165. Wither is Malaysia going?

    It is a glaring failure of the administration and its officials ( the prime minister’s office and the ministers ) to have not contributed positively to the open forum organised by the bar council.

    In fact it is a desertion of responsibilities of the highest order on their part.

    What’s wrong with discussing issues of importance to the public at large, more so an issue which would clear the air for Malaysians who are living in a pluralistic and multi-religious environment? It makes no sense that religious matters could not be discussed openly at all. It is as if a segment of the Malaysian citizenry has the sole and absolute right to a particular religion. Who says Islam belongs to the a particular ethnic group in Malaysia, or as if it was made to seem to be so all this while?

    To be sure, not one true religion belongs to any one particular ethnic group in the whole wide world, let alone any particular ethnic group in Malaysia. Unless it is clearly an ethnic-based creed (as opposed to a major revelation which is for the whole of humanity), and originated and practised by a particular people, no one can lay claim to a particular religion. To do so would run counter to the precepts and teachings of the religion itself.

    The administration should have come out strongly to encourage open discussions which would contribute greatly to better understanding among the various ethnic groups in the country. It was made clear that no attempt would be made to override any laws or principles outlined in the nation’s constitution. To do so would be irresponsible.

    However, the silence or indication that such open discussion would cause racial tension and unrest is illogical and nonsensical. Any right thinking individual would have thought otherwise. And to go with the uninitiated and those with ulterior motives that such discussions are dangerous smacks of stoking social unrest and misunderstanding itself. It is just akin to adding salt to the wounds on their part.

    How is the country to progress meaningfully and intelligently if such a basic and necessary discussion is not encouraged or allowed? Enlightenment could only be attained by treading the path of wisdom and sensible openness.

    Humanity had been through trials and tribulations to come to where it is now. And it was through questioning, inquiring, debating, querying and constructive arguing that learning and teaching could be effected. If there are wrongs, correct them.

    It seems that parochialism and opportunistic tendencies are the order of the day in Malaysia, and being abused by parties with ulterior motives. It seems that certain religious groups are also riding on such events to serve their own interest to influence the misguided and to perpetuate ignorance. What else could it be then?

    Malaysia seems to be headed to the dark ages with its current incompetency at the helm, as no leaders seem to have come out strongly to right the wrong. Wrong signals have been sent out. And it would take a stronger signal to quell the fire of resentment and misunderstanding that had been allowed to smoulder.

    Selfish interest, parochial practices, racial discrimination and prejudice have no place in Malaysia. Let good sense prevail.

  166. Is this what Muslims value and practice in Malaysia? Is this what they mean being a good Muslim all about? What difference it makes between these Malaysians who claim they are Muslims and those who call themselves servants of God but terrorizing the world and its innocent people?

    Article 121 is created by few leaders in Malaysia and it’s not god written. Those lawyers from Bar Council are not challenging Koran’s versions. In fact some of Muslim brothers and sisters too have joined today’s forum. Does it mean these Muslims have become less Muslims now?

    I believe we must learn to be human first. We must understand GOD is for all. Human no matter how clever they are, how big their position is, always are imperfect and it means any manmade law could be viewed positively for improvements. We make mistakes. Religion is for one to follow and be liberated spiritually. It is being perceived completely wrong by most people in Malaysia today, however.

    Let me tell a true little story about my daughter:-

    About a year ago my daughter who was 12 years then, came back after school, crying. As concerned father I asked her why she was crying, she asked me this:

    “Are we Hindus, right? I said yes. She asked me again, “My Malay friends told me, our god is devil, only Muslims’ is real God. And she said we all pray to idols and Satan. Is it so?” I was shocked for a second, because how this little Malay Muslim girl has been misguided and to disrespect others’ faith. But I said to my little girl. The Malays pray to god, yes its true so do we. You see, God is all, god is every where. God can even be found in stone, in wood. God is everything. He is in you, in me and also in the Malay girl who told you that. She was not convinced fully. So I continued, “Do you think if god loves a person he would bless the person with good things, for which my daughter said yes, of course. I continued again by asking my girl, who do you think between two of you is smarter? My daughter was quick to say she was, I asked again, who you think is prettier between two of you; she said she was; And I posed my daughter the final question, who do you think between the two of you is kinder and helpful; my daughter said once again, she was better than the other girl. So I told my daughter, “so you see now, God is the kindest, the loveliest and the most intelligent, and he likes you so much that he has made you into a beautiful, intelligent and kind young girl. My daughter was the happiest girl learning that. But I told my daughter another thing. God shall never look down on another, so please do not look down upon others, treat them how god treats you. My daughter followed my advice. The girl’s name is Amira and she is one of the best friends of my daughter until today.
    Those who have understood God and submitted themselves to him do not fear of another being taking away their share. Your share is yours; my share is mine; no one could take away from you except God himself.

    Hence, fighting with an illusion mind, wrongly believing in safeguarding ones interest is nothing but a show of disloyalty and disbelief to the very creator who created you and me. ISLAM, please learn the true meaning of this faith, dear Malaysian Muslims! !

  167. It looks to me that in real politik terms, minority religious rights are going to take a backseat as PKR and PAS takes on UMNO for Malay majority votes.

    But this is as good as any a time for Anwar to come clean and take a clear and unequivocal stand of what he believes to be the future of Malaysia – is it one where sensitive issues cannot be discussed, because that could mean anything… or it is one where any issues can be discussed in a civilised manner?

    Anwar cannot equivocate on this matter anymore. He has to make his stand know. I personally feel sanguine about this – in that even if he says sensitive issues can be discussed, I don’t think Malay votes, not especially in Penang, will swing to UMNO. In fact, they have every reason to swing to PKR, because we must be a nation that moves forward, and not backwards. We must become more mature, not less. And mature people can discuss anything and agree to disagree, no matter how emotive the subject is.

  168. As the recent fiasco at the Bar council meeting has clearly proven & demonstrates 3 important points as follows
    In Malaysia, the Bolehland
    1) This religion=not peaceful=violent
    2) This religion=not democratic=no discussion allowed
    3) This religion=repressive= alternative views prohibited

    So who in their right mind would want to convert to such an ‘angry’ religion. There should be a law effective immediately, banning anyone from converting so no more such disputes. This will provide a win-win conclusion for everyone, or will it?

  169. The choice of religion is a personal matter, and the constitution of the country allows the people the right to choose freely what religion he wishes to belong. But in practice, only non-Muslims are allowed freedom to be converted to become Muslims, and not the other way round.

    The purpose of the disruption of the Bar Council Forum seemed to be to prevent any discussions on the current practice, and to stop any possibility of changing the status quo.

    If religious practice is a personal matter, then it should not concern members of any religion about who enters or exits the religion. But the practice now that exiting Islam requires confirmation of the Syariah court gives Muslims no choice on the matter. A person born a Muslim has to die a Muslim. Is that the practice of Islam worldwide? Is that Islamic law based on the teaching of Koran?

    It seems that Muslims in other part of the world are allowed to leave the Islamic faith when they please. Was it a failure of the religion in those countries which allow Muslims to leave their faith because the governments fail in their duties, or was it that those governments consider it beyond their duties to be concerned with religious belief?

    The concerned government departments in Malaysia watch over the issues of conversion, and the religious practices undertaken by Muslims. Unless Muslims themselves think that they should have the freedom to leave, the matter should not concern non-Muslims. But if the number of Muslims who wanted a change to the current practice is small in number, should others give them the support.

    Democracy allows freedom of choice. When the majority population might not be directly affected by a certain government regulation, their views which might be concerned more with justice even if they are not personally involved should prevail. Malaysia is said to practice parliamentary democracy, and elections have been conducted since independence. For that the choice should be based on informed decision. People can only be informed if they are allowed to discuss issues of interest. It is the duty of the government to ensure that discussions are allowed to take place without disruption by unruly elements of the society. No topic is sensitive if politicians in power do not declare them so. No issue described as sensitive could become less sensitive over time because it is always a political judgment. The forum organized by the Bar Council was declared unwelcome by the UMNO leaders because they wanted to portray themselves as saviors of the Islamic religion. Politicians of other brands could not allow UMNO the monopoly. That was how religion and race issues will ruin the country.

    From newspaper reports there were only a handful of born Muslims, such as Linda Joy, who wanted to leave Islamic faith. Most others who wanted to leave were those who belong to others before becoming Muslims. Perhaps adult Muslim converts should be informed that it was a one way street on conversion. For the minors who were led into becoming Muslims, they are not different from the born Muslims. Migration might be the only way out.

  170. A thought many take for granted, what if all indians and chinese were to migrate out of malaysia, what would be the state of things….wild guess would be…a non existent bar council, empty clinics, ghost cities(no chinese traders), a share market the size of a pea. Seriously they actually are the movers and shakers of this nation, it would be a nightmare if they disappeared. the country would be worst off then papua new guinea. appreciate your brethrens , stop the racial slurs and think of building relationships, that’s what malaysias about.:)

  171. Bar council needs to take a reality check. THIS MALAYSIA
    Political parties will use any event to gather support. And with religion so entrench with politics what were they expecting. A Civilized forum, how long have they been living in Malaysia ?

    At least hold the forum in Singapore where the police won’t be so bias.

  172. As published in the Star (10.8.08): Jeanne Danker was born in 1953 to a Catholic Portugese-Eurasian family.

    “I practised being a good Catholic. I went to church, attended catechism classes and read the scriptures,” she said.

    She converted to Islam more than 30 years ago. “My mum and dad were happy that I was happy and accepted that I wanted to be a Muslim.”

    Did the Catholics prevent Jeanne Danker’s conversion to Islam?

  174. If Malaysian Muslims didn’t force Islam into the throats of non-Muslims, then they wouldn’t be having a forum discussing their rights.

    I mean, anybody would be pissed off to find their just departed loved ones being suddenly body snatched by Muslims.

    It’s simply a case of, “If you don’t want me to complain about you, then stop touching me & keep your hands to yourself.”

    Muslims shouldn’t be lamenting when they have encroached into another’s territory (intentionally or otherwise) & expect the other party to keep quiet about it.

  175. fanatics. can’t take thing proper. Stop voting for Zulkifli next time around. Too emotional, does not deserve to be a MP. Behave like Ameno thugs.
    An open forum shows that there is nothing to hide. Only fanatics need to talk behind closed doors. same as criminals and terrorist.

    He himself and presumably Anwar also does not understand the feelings and predicaments of these people of “UNKNOWN” religion status. If it is the other around, I think there will be war.

  176. “Nation-building” is never done at the expense of majority sentiments and by trampling over the constitution that enshrines Islam as the official religion. What the bar council attempted to do was to try to test the waters at bucking the trend of rising Islamic influence in Malaysian politics. They failed because secularism has no place in Islam and consequently, Malaysia which has over 62% Muslims!

    Many comments here of late are reflective of the general rise in anti-Malay and Islamophobic stance taken by non-Muslim minorities, and if they want to compromise national stability for their vested political interests, then be prepared for many more May 13’s!

    The non-Muslim minorities need to learn to respect the feeling’s of the majority if they want the same appreciation and respect in return; if we want a win-win situation and a truly successful nation building excercise, we need to bridge the religious divide, which is the ultimate impediment to Malaysia’s development and continued stability!

  177. As much as we might want to bring this issue to bring to light, I think this is truly not the right time to discuss about this problem.
    Don’t you see it, why would the authority allow the forum in the first place…just becos this can later be used as a weapon against you again…causing a lot of confusions…and making more people to misunderstand the issues…especially the kampung folks…I bet you, you can discuss until the cow came home, but this problem will never be understand by the nation at large…at least for now…hence, do not be so stupid to expose your position…like a game of chess…

  178. dear zak, personally I am not anti malay. I do not think many “minorities” are as well. we are brothers struggling to survive in this mess created by BeEnd.
    I am not against Islam either. sometimes, when lines are not clearly drawn, it is good to have a forum. controversy had to be settle through court causing much pain and economic loss to the families as well as nation.
    What is the harm to have a forum to iron out these problems from the view point of law ?
    Anyway, as what Federick just said, not the right time to mention it. Else end up goin to jail for sedition …sigh

  179. I really don’t understand why there is such a strong protest from just 300+ protestors, and such a big fuss …

    This is a meeting organized by the Bar Council.

    The purpose is to address conflicts of laws.

    It is not intended to question provisions of Article 121(1A) of the Constitution, which conferred syariah jurisdiction over Muslims.

    It is only intended “to address the conflicts of laws facing families caught between the separate jurisdictions of civil and syariah laws”.

    Since the objective to to make our laws better, why the protests?

    Why the fear when the objective is to make our laws better?

    Is it due to the fear of inadequate representation from certain parties?

    If so, why didn’t these parties voice their concerns that they are inadequately represented?

    Are these parties concerned about their inability to discuss in a civil and adult-like manner, with proper data and reasoning?

    Or is this protest a deliberate attempt to pursue hidden and selfish agendas?

    If we truly strive for national unity, then, all parties must be able to come together and discuss in a civil and respectful manner. With mutual and genuine intentions to forge national unity.

    National unity cannot be forced upon others. It can only be encouraged, and when there are mutual intentions to unite.

    Old Observer.

  180. Goldenscreen; well done. Thks for the comment. Good! And on understanding that situation, i, again, would like to tell you that PAS is more then willing to have a forum with anybody (even DAP/PKR) on any Islamic Issue and also about that daughter/mother you are talking about. Read this: http://www.harakahdaily.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16288&Itemid=50

    EVERYBODY: Please READ that link.

    All of you seem to be so eager to see some changes in this issue. Now we are still under UMNO and our ISLAM is known as ISLAM HADHARI (so many kinds of ISLAM? – i don’t know) But once the PAKATAN RAKYAT rule Malaysia, please make it a point that this forum is thoroughly discussed again. In fact MUSLIM himself will be openned to a more realistic kind of law. For instance, if anybody accuses you of SODOMY/RAPE etc, there must be 4 witnesses. And more muslim will not steal or accept curruption worrying their hands to be chopped down (!!!). And of course, non-muslim can opt to any secular civil law. Double standard? Two Laws? While, Malaysia seems to be like this…(!)

    PKR may be something else because many of them are BORN IN UMNO. But do everybody know that majority of PAS strongmen have been rejecting UMNO since DAY ONE?

    Lim Kiat Siang will jot it down that the first thing to talk about when PR hold the power is to resolve this sensitive matter. This should be a valid admisible matter and Nik Aziz is not that stuck-up to refuse talking about this. The only thing is that CURRENTLY HE HAS NOT GOT THE REAL POWER. So, UMNO is currently responsible.

    Don’t be sad. Try again to talk about this in a more gentlemen manner once we have the power…. pls! We are on the way already!

  181. zak_hammaad you sound eerily like TDM prior to every impending elections. In fact you sound like a lot of UMNO ‘leaders’ today. Everytime someone opens their mouth it’s May 13. Organise something it’s May 13. Someone farts it’s May 13.

    I admit the Bar Council could have done it better by not doing it in the first place (see my earlier posts). However if you continue to insist the forum is to question Article 121 then you are the same as the protestors (all politicians 300 of them).

    There was a clear intention to deceive the uninformed for the sole prpose of inflaming the masses for their own political gains. Now everyone knows there is a Khalid Noordin. Before this he was just another MP to some and to most nobody knows who he is (including most Kulim residents).

    You see my point? Maybe you should ask yourself whether you know what the forum is all about, who were the panelists, invitees, mediators, topics of discussion before feeding us with your propaganda.

    It reminds me of the story where a group of villagers at the behest of its Chief burns the house of someone who is rumoured to own a book that could have insuanated something adverse to Islam but it turned out no one found the book. Better still no one in the village could read in the first place save for the Chief and the Chief didn’t even bother reading the book.

  185. “…if they want to compromise national stability for their vested political interests, then be prepared for many more May 13’s!” zak_hahamad

    It is OK to take lives in the interest of political stability. OK – anything new from a coconut head?? Limkamput?

  186. dear zak_hammaad, I think you should read what RGRaj had posted
    yesterday at 18: 43.12.

    It is hollow to say that, “The non-Muslim minorities need to learn to respect the feeling’s of the majority if they want the same appreciation and respect in return; if we want a win-win situation and a truly successful nation building excercise, we need to bridge the religious divide, which is the ultimate impediment to Malaysia’s development and continued stability!”

    How to bridge the divide when one party can’t even tolerate open discussion of some pertinent issues?

    Bridge the religious divide by keeping mute???

  187. On tv, the one clip that keep coming back to me was the guy who grabbed the microphone to prevent others from speaking and when a chinese older man tried to snap his picture with a camera, the man slapped his camera. Then the old man attacked him only to be held back by the police and other participants.

    Its a sign of things to come. Think Hindraf. These incidents just sents the message to Hindraf supporters that they will never see justice without violence. Right now most of them are passive as shown by their hunger strike this weekend. But at some point, a tragedy, a stupidity like we saw this weekend will trigger violence. Its a matter of time.

    More than anything else I am convinced by Najib’s response to the incident: “I told you so”. Admist what are serious problems, our annointed next Chief Executive gloats about how smart he is when in reality he is not. Who would NOT know it was going to bring out the monkeys!!! The man has no real answer to what ails us for the future. He will be the PM that comes in with the most baggage ever steeped in the traditions of UMNO politics in every form, an expired formula.

  188. “The non-Muslim minorities need to learn to respect the feeling’s of the majority if they want the same appreciation and respect in return; if we want a win-win situation and a truly successful nation building excercise, we need to bridge the religious divide, which is the ultimate impediment to Malaysia’s development and continued stability.” Zak

    You tape the mouths of the minorities, and then say it is a win-win situation ? We have been going up a one-way street for God-knows-how-long.

  189. ///“The non-Muslim minorities need to learn to respect the feeling’s of the majority if they want the same appreciation and respect in return///—Zak

    When the words minorities and majority are used in the above sentence, it is the word bully that controls the thought. You respect others not because they can bully you. You cannot demand respect just because you have the number to bully.

  190. There’s no point talking or arguing with those who lack the capacity to understand and always want others to respect them as if they are the “taiko” because they are the majority here but not in the world. It is just like arguing between a professor and a primary school student. If the primary student failed to understand or win the argument, he might scratch the professor’s car (e.g. calling others “Babi”!!!). The worst thing is that the primary student failed to understand that in order for him to understand, he needs to study hard, humble and never take shortcut to acquire knowleadge and wisdom!!! But too sad that the education minister is telling the primary school student that it is ok not to understand anything as long as you belong to the Supreme Race!!!

  191. We respect one another not because it is out of nos. or fear, it is purely out of respect and it must be earned!!! it doesnt matter whether you are one or 10 billion people!!! If you speak the truth even if you are just one person compared to 10 billion who speak otherwise, the one who speak the truth shall prevail and be sure that the Almighty is always behind you!!! Mind you, 10 billion people who did wrongs doesnt make it a right!!! Similarly, the majority here may not necessarily be right in everything and at all times!!! Time to grow up!!!

  192. m.hwang, I understand the story you put forward, but this is not about stories but ground realities. FYI, I am as much anti-umno as you probably are pro-umno. Mouths are always opening by the wise and the unwise, innumerous political and non-political events are taking place daily; this means nothing unless their agenda is scruitinised.

    The bar council’s untimely and untoward move caused an expectant outcome because of the sensitive nature of the forum. As a society comprising different races, Malaysians have displayed the spirit of tolerance and respect to the other races in the past and this was due to acceptance of differences and not rejection of them.

  194. zak_hammaad Says:

    Today at 18: 35.24 (5 hours ago)
    The bar council’s untimely and untoward move caused an expectant outcome because of the sensitive nature of the forum.
    ————————————————————–

    Forum timing is questionable -“Untimely” 100% Agreed.

  195. dear zak_hamaad,

    I felt compelled to touch a little on issues you raised in the post.

    First of all, do not misconstrue that the minorities here in Malaysia do not have respect for the majority ( you know who they are ). I am a “minority”, and I have a fair bit of “majority” friends or acquaintances. And relation have been cordial and warm. And I believe and can see that a lot of minorities are in my position too.

    And as far as nation building is concerned, the administration has the main role to play. What can you expect the general reactions to be when policies are lop-sided? Even outsiders who are neutral parties, and I mean real outsiders ( foreigners visiting here ) could sense and perceive the discrimination and prejudiced policies.

    Opportunists and bigots and religious fundamentalists ( especially those who have personal agenda and exploiters of religions ) are seen to have a hand in deciding policies and opinions in Malaysia. It is a sad situation where the masses , who are not well-versed in matters religious, are being exploited to defend a few of those are astray.

    Let’s have mutual respect and be open about all issues. Nothing should be sensitive any more in this age and era. Discuss rather than confront, if there are contentious issues.

  196. zak_hammaad and a host of Muslim columnists in the media have been harping about ‘trampling over the constitution that enshrines Islam as the official religion’, and the so-called arrogance and defiance of The Bar Council in going ahead with the open discussion on the issue of non-Muslim converts to Islam.

    The simple question that seems to elude the hard-heads is… how can the status of Islam as the official religion be compromised if a non-Muslim who intends to convert, inform his wife and family?

    Does ‘peaceful, tolerant and merciful’ mean that when a Muslim convert dies, the ‘body-snatchers’ appear during the time of grief of the converts loved ones eventhough they had no clue of the conversion as obviously the convert was not practicing the religion [you can’t pray 5 times a day and keep it a secret!]?

    Or that a wife finds out that her husband and her children are suddenly Muslims and she has to depend on the Shariah Courts to grant custody of a couple of Muslim infants to a non-Muslim? I’ll have a better chance of spotting a Unicorn on the LDP!

    …and even discussing this is such a sensitive issue?

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