I have given notice to Parliament to have an urgent debate on Wednesday for the release of the Hindraf Five – M Manoharan, DAP Selangor Assemblyman for Kota Alam Shah, P. Uthayakumar, V. Ganabatirau, R. Kenghadharan dan T. Vasantha Kumar – and over 60 other detainees currently held in Kamunting Detention Centre under the Internal Security Act (ISA), including some who had been incarcerated for over six years.
In calling on Parliament to urge the Abdullah administration to respect and comply with the wishes of the people as demonstrated in the March 8 “political tsunami” for a more democratic, accountable and progressive Malaysia, the government is reminded that the ISA detainees should not be denied their fundamental rights to an open trial if they are deemed to be threats to national security.
The refusal of the government to release the Hindraf 5 and the scores of other ISA detainees is proof that the Abdullah administration is not prepared to heed the people’s aspirations clearly articulated in the March 8 “political tsunami” to end its arrogant governance and to revoke its high-handed and undemocratic policies and laws.
Well done uncle Lim. Your honety and sincereity in you coomitment to uphold fairness, justice, and your commitment to human rights is reflected on the priority you have shown over the release of H5 and the other detainees.
The Indians in Malaysia have been betrayed by the Badawi government even after a cear message was sent on 8/3. We fair minded Malaysians, particualarly Malaysian Indians, will not rest until the H5 are released. We are resolute in our determination becasue we know the H5 have been detained under false accusations.
They could hv release Hindr 5 just b4, GE12, and get plus points for themselves, but they didnt.
If anything happens to Uttayakumar(he is very ill at the moment and has been denied proper food and medical care), we will hold the govt responsible, especially the rubbish-talking minister Syed Hamid Albar.
a$SUPP. You are going down. We will get you. Sarawak will be next target. Trust me.
Dear Uncle Lim,
Apparently you are learning fast… to include 60 other ISA detainees after RPK’s Malaysia Today’s critics… hehe~~ Bravo anyway, it’s time the Parlimentarian to sit down and discuss about the possibility to abolish ISA… or at least review it… alongside with the infamous OSA…
On the side note, the Malay Mail had reported the third “big fight” in Perak where DAP’s MP Kulasegaran seeking to be appointed as Ipoh’s mayor, while other members of Pakatan seek to defend the incumbent…
I certainly wish this will not rise to become a BIG FIGHT… a small fight is ok… not a big fight please… if DAP doesn’t get it… so be it… push the local election through as soon as possible instead…~~
On the other hand, is it good to have an MP presiding the town council?
Regards,
Kit,
This is the first time in a long while that I see the fate of the other detainees being mentioned together with the fate of the Hindraf detainees.
I must congratulate you for being the patriot that you are to all Malaysians, for widening the issue to include the fate of all detainees. Each detainee is somebody’s husband, somebody’s father, somebody’s brother, somebody’s uncle. Human rights are no less human just because one is being detained for alleged acts of terrorism and the other for alleged crimes against property etc. What makes it a human right issue is that these detainees have been deprived of their right to due process. They have not been charged nor informed what the allegations against them are, nor provided access to legal counsel.
Thank you for tabling this motion, Sdr Lim. But why only you? Why not a joint motion from PAS and PKR as well?
BN will never learn,To Misnisters has said that they will not channel funds directly to the to the 5 PR states.ACA is them good in just 2 weeks of investication.They have said that the tourism minister has done nothing wrong.I don,t see how a minister can give millions of RM to an NGO which she herself is the patron.
The wife of the ex Selangor MB,Has said that since her husband is still the care taker MB, it is not wrong of her to give the millions in BALKIS account to BAKTI.I can imagine if PR take over the goverment,This bunch of UMNO blood suckers will transfer all goverment funds to UMNO.
Congratulations to KIT for tabling the motion to release not only the 5 but also the others. Well done! Yes, its true, this should be a joint effort of the Pakatan Rakyat, to carry more weight. However, may be there isn’t time for the Pakatan to discuss on this subject in order to be in time for the questioning in the Parliament.
The BR ministers are still stuck with their ‘dictatorial and bully’ attitude. Syed Hamid (on ISA & M.O), Khir Toyo (on fund trandfer) and Tourism Minister, BN will continue to suffer with these stumps around!
# limkamput Says:
Today at 18: 28.46 (53 minutes ago)
Thank you for tabling this motion, Sdr Lim. But why only you? Why not a joint motion from PAS and PKR as well?
====================================================
Dear limkamput,
If you do read some of the minutes in Hansard archive (Parliament Malaysia), you’ll know that it requires only one person to move an urgent motion.
The speaker will then schedule to let the particular MP to read his/her notice out loud in the parliament. The speaker will then approved or reject the call for urgent motion, according to 3 criterias, namely, whether the issue is fixed; whether it involves public importance; and whether it needs to be handled IMMEDIATELY.
I would say Uncle Lim’s motion will be rejected due to “the need to debate on such issue is not URGENT”…
Regards,
Bentoh, yes the three criteria are: the matter must be specific, urgent and of public importance. I just want PKR and PAS to show their stand. Rightly or wrongly, I feel that the two parties have not done enough on this issue. That is all.
Uncle Lim
Are you serious ? Do you know why the other 60 ISA detainees are being held for ? This is idiocy.
Well, as for HINDRAF 5, it is a matter of time they are released.
And don’t for a moment believe the lies that being spread by the HINDRAF leaders and supporters that Uthaya is seriously ill.
I am afraid the BN govt will not favour their release as it may jeopardise them. But the decision not to release them will also cause the fence-sitter rakyat to stay with PR.
Uncle Kit
sorry for out of topic request. Can you do us a favor to find out what happen to the Lingam Royal Comission Report?
Please, I hope whatever you said about Hindraf detainees are true, which would make you a very knowledgeable insider. Otherwise, I suggest you give some respect to those who have been deprived of their freedom. By the way, you said more than what you said here about the Hindraf leaders in other threads.
Dear LKS
Please also table a motion to abolish the ISA. They can have a separate ‘Prevention of Terrorism Act’ wherby pre-emptive strikes can be launched against anyone who is suspected of planning terrorist attacks.
But not under the catch-all ‘National Security’ phrase where opposition to BN can mean one ending up in prison without trial.
I am sure at least 80% of Malaysians will support both motions if allowed a free vote at a National Referendum.
A re-post of an earlier comment on the issue:
We must not forget that we are living in a post 9/11 world. This single incident has changed the world and countries all over the world have passed similar legislation but with safeguards against their possible abuse.
In fact prior to 9/11 the U.S. has been critical of Malaysia and felt we should repeal our ISA. But instead as a result of 9/11 they have taken a leaf from our experience when fighting terrorism, and introduced their own ISA – the U.S. Patriots Act and the Real ID Act.
But they are important and major differences. They have very strong safeguards against abuse by the President and his powers are in any case temporary and they call for mandatory review by the U.S. Congress. Our ISA has been used to stem political dissent which is wrong! It is never the objective of Parliament when it passed the law for the Act to be used other than combating Communist terrorism. The father of recently deceased Rustam, Ahmad Boestaman had links to Indonesia’s PKI and he was detained by the Brits for eight years and by Tunku for four years. But Ops Lallang detainees are not new converts to Communism which was in its death throes!
Our courts in the 80s have chosen to give a liberal interpretation to the phrase “threat to national security”. Guess who was the Prime Minister than?? He and Musa Hitam made a toke release of ISA prisoners when they took over the reins and reneged on their promise to do away with it completely.
To repeal the Act in the post 9/11 is not unlike saying we have to ban automobiles because they can be used as a weapon!
YB LIM KS
Thank you for your leadership in fighting for the realease of all the ISA detainees. I hope you can also sppearhed the fight to abolish ISA and other draconian acts. May god bless you.
The Hindraf detainees should be released if not charged. Using the ISA to silence such people is a mockery of the judicial system and above all, a very cowardly act by the ruling govt.
Linking these people to the Tamil Tigers is absurd. If there are such links, then charge them. But in any case, one wonders why the Tamil Tigers would be interested in meddling with the internal affairs of Malaysia. As if they have nothing better to do.
This is clearly an abuse of the ISA. The govt should not be allowed to silence vocal dissenters under the veil of ISA.
Kit Siang,
I was emotional after learning about how the father of the murdered Mongolian Altantuya Shaariibuu was treated by the arrogant BN leaders this morning.
KS, please bring the murder case of Altantuya Shaariibuu all the way to the parliment and throw the questions into the face of the culprit. For such a shocking murder to take place in our country is already a shame, worse still our legal system which allows the suspects to run around the country sends cold shivers down my spine.
Let us not forget about the murder of Altantuya Shaariibuu. The murderers and associates have to be brought to justice without doubts. If the past political tsunami is not great enough to make this happen, prepare for something worse in the next general election, BN.
For this arrogant [deleted] who projects himself as the PM-in-waiting, I hope the reformed judiaciary will reserve a place for you in the cage.
a good start and perhaps an important one. how on earth the judicial reformation can start if they dont even want to abolish ISA, OSA or even c4 etc…. and for the right motive- not just for the hindraf 5 but for all those detained in ISA without trial. our plight should be for all those in ISA not just Hindraf 5. speak up and stand out- uncle lim u re doing the right thing! we the people are behind you
It is understandable to be calling for the Act’s repeal without more, when you are in the opposition and especially when you yourself along with the others fell victim and in some cases more than once to such abuse of power. The abhorrent aspect of the ISA is in its abuse made possible by the absence of legal safeguards against the arbitrary use of Ministerial powers – like judicial review. But like I said we are living in a post 9/11 world when terrorism is a constant threat not just in Malaysia but all over the world. The threat is global in nature.
Today in Malaysia, the prospect of an ‘opposition’ run federal government is no more a fiction or a possibility but could be a reality sooner than many think. There is a need for legislation like the ISA to fight extreme right wing elements among us who may resort to terrorist or terrorist-like tactics to re-claim their power.
The very thought of having legislation that would deny citizens of their right of due process and the suspension of the writ of habeas corpus is naturally repulsive to those of us who believe in the liberty of the individual, of fundamental liberties and the rule of law. Thus we may want such legislation to be temporary in nature, and to remain on the books only for as long as terrorism remains a global threat.
If ISA has judicial review, then it is not the ISA as we understand. I just wonder what this fellow is talking about.
Such a legislation (is it with judicial review or without judicial review?) to be temporary in nature? As long as terrorism remains a global threat? Who get to decide what constitutes terrorism and when terrorism is imminent? Ok, the Home Affairs Minister now decides terrorism is everywhere, it is going to last forever, and so the legislation will “temporary forever”. How about it? Wish someone can write more clearly and logically.
Dear YB Lim,
I am very thankful as an Indian and a fellow Malaysian on your call for the release of 5 Hindraf leaders. The continuous refusal of government to release the ISA detainees only show their ignorance of people’s sentiment. I hope your effort supported by all opposition and right minded MPs would succeed.
God Bless
With decades of unchecked religious extremism, ISA is more important now than before.
Our neighbour, Indonesia is struggling to fight religious extremism and fundamentalism.
The suffering of family members of these detainees has never been highlighted. It is time the suffering of these silent victims be recognized. They are as much victims as the detainees themselves.
Only a Pariah Parliament will refuse to censure a government that incarcerates its citizens to settle political scores. I am speaking of Zimbabwe, of course. Malaysians are not like that. Or are they? Let’s wait and see.
I am not taking it too far out of context if I say that a Preacher must practise what he preaches!
“People’s Needs, Priorities Come First Than Party’s, Says Abdullah
KUALA LUMPUR, April 28 (Bernama) — The government will always give importance to the people’s problems and interests, …”
Take heed of the needs of the families of the Hindraf 5. They are victims of a brutish government.
We have made our choice in GE12 over which government we preferred. We all know what we are eligible to vote on and vote for.
It’s normal for BN not to removed ISA as they need it for keeping ‘bad’ influence people off the public.
We, rakyat will again decide what ISA can be use for in the next GE13. We will make use of ISA for those BN clonies especially UMNO corrupted leaders. Let them taste their own medicine. FOr so long, rakyat can wait … we don’t mind waiting for another term for this changes.
No one is above the law. That;s Malaysian culture.
///KS, please bring the murder case of Altantuya Shaariibuu all the way to the parliment and throw the questions into the face of the culprit/// – Dr. W
I share Dr W’s sentiments.
The problem is the sub judice rule.
The rule prevents reference being made in Parliamentary proceedings to cases which are active in the courts.
The rationale for the Rule : (1) to preserve proper relations between Parliament and courts. This is based on the principle of “comity”, whereby it is considered undesirable for Parliament to
act as an alternative forum to decide that which the court is in the process of deciding, it being undesirable that public get confused when Parliament and court – both central pillars of the Constitution of authority – arrive at different and divergent conclusions on the matter currently tried and (2) Parliament should not debate a matter that may prejudice and influence court’s judgment as it would prejudice the position of the person on trial.
Altantuya Shaariibuu’s father had alleged that two letters were sent by the Mongolian prime minister to Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi late last year and that Mongolia has threatened to break diplomatic ties with Malaysia over the murder trial of Mongolian Altantuya Shaariibuu.
Questions :
· Is it true 2 letters were sent?
· Is it true Mongolia has threatened to break diplomatic ties with Malaysia?
· If so upon what circumstances would Mongolia break diplomatic ties with Malaysia?
· What are the effects and repercussions of such a break of diplomatic ties?
I believe that these questions are matters of public importance worthy of parliamentary debate.
Though reference is made Altantuya Shaariibuu’s trial, yet it is only by way of reference in general terms in so far as necessary to debate the wider 4 general issues of public concern above outlined – and therefore not touching on immediate issues before the court regarding innocence or guilt or procedural conduct of trial – does not infringe the sub-judice rule, and therefore would be a fit and proper matter to be raised in Parliament.
[deleted]
If ISA has judicial review, then it is not the ISA as we understand. I just wonder what this fellow is talking about.
Such a legislation (is it with judicial review or without judicial review?) to be temporary in nature? As long as terrorism remains a global threat? Who get to decide what constitutes terrorism and when terrorism is imminent? Ok, the Home Affairs Minister now decides terrorism is everywhere, it is going to last forever, and so the legislation will be “temporary forever”. How about it? Wish someone can write more clearly and logically.
“I was emotional after learning about how the father of the murdered Mongolian Altantuya Shaariibuu was treated by the arrogant BN leaders this morning.” Dr W.
I concur YB Lim KS. People are angry not because the Mongolia is denied justice, but there is a clear plot to twist justice. It does not take a legal mind to see the prosecution and defence are using the same scripts.
I don’t know how you could this. My interest is to stop the degradation of our legal system to fit the lifestyles and greeds of the ruling administrative people. Malaysians believe in “Karma” and punishement after dead – but justice while we are still living is equally important. Be it the AG, the Police or even minister(s) in the case, let justice be brought against them.
Jeffrey, reading Altantuya’s court proceeding reminded me of Dato’ Anwar’s trials. On one side there’s a long list of irrelevant and incomplete evidences put forward, while the pertinent questions were never followed. On the other side, we are helplessly watching the disintegration of the prosecution.
Parliament is not the place to decide on the outcome, but certainly YB Lim can highlight the frequent delays and postponements of this case. That itself cast doubts over the integrity of the investigating team. The 3 questions you mentioned are also issues that Abdullah need to answer and he failed to do likewise.
As I said, I don’t know how YB Lim can highlight this issue, but I trust his judgement and experience in this. I believe this is more than a trial of a Mongolian girl murdered.
The truth……..
The followings are the baseless allegations and demands by Hindu Rights Action Force (Hindraf) to instigate hatred
-that the Government carried out ethnic cleansing of Indians.
-To ask Queen Elizabeth II to appoint a Queen’s Counsel to represent the Indian community in a class-action suit filed against the British government for bringing Indians as indentured labourers to the then Malaya and exploiting them.
-claims in the Hindraf memorandum that a Government-backed extremist group had destroyed a temple in Kampung Jawa, Klang, on Nov 15.
Thanks GOD and ISA for putting them into jail.
Malaysia still need ISA to protect fellow Malaysians from these trouble makers…….
They deserved to be locked up under ISA.
Yes , FREE h5 , get rid of ISA, and also highlight Altantuya’s case, cos at this stage they are just buying time , all the delays are heading for an acquittal , where is the judicial reforms , all’s farce as usual . kudismuddin stop the apology bullshit and just resign , you are a disgrace to the nation. Above all bring about Meritocracy as the intellect of the nations leaders is the biggest joke at this moment, wake up all.
All the Hindraf and other ISA detainees will be released if Pakatan Rakyat form the next government. Any genuine offences will be trialed in an open court. If that’s the case, who is your desired politician to be the next PM of Malaysia ? Vote now at sonofpenang.blogspot.com
ISA & OSA are oppressive laws that serve no other meaning purpose to the people than for the ruling parties to perpetuate dictatorialism and their abuse of power.
One day they will taste this bitter fruit when they lose their grip on power.
It is high time that they be repealed in a civil society.
The fact that Abullah’s ministers kept saying that the two draconian laws are still needed and relevant baffled us, Malaysian, as if the citizen here in this country is full of terrorists and extremists.
It is really a laughing stock to the world at large.
YB Lim,
It is time to ask those BIG ULARS who had robbed the rakyat money to return the money back to the coffers of our beloved country (I hope it will not be robbed by another group of ULARS, as they belonged to the same gang!!!) or to individual EPF account holder or any other way that can benefit the rakyat.
These BIG ULARS were allocated millions of shares without justification when national companies were privatised in the name of privatisation. Instead of allocating the shares to the rakyat e.g. using their EPF money to subscripe the shares or other ways, these BIG ULARS made use of their positions to gain from the privatisation!!!
It is time to bring this up in the parliament just like the ISA detainees issue, least we forget about all these BIG ULARS that had makan our rakyat money without feeling shame and guilt!!!
Hope to hear from you soon on this issue!!!
if without ISA, these hindraf liars and instigators will cause another May 13. Thanks GOD, there is ISA, we can have proper peaceful GE and enjoy peace till today…….
ISA used against the Hindraf leaders is the right way of exercising ISA, well done ABB! that’s the very few right things he had done for our country.
ABB is not like dr mahatahi who uses ISA against politician.
ABB is a fair leader and allowed a fair GE and is not like dr mahatahi who always block, cheat or prevent a fair GE. That’s why it is very hard for opposition to win seats during dr mahatahi era…..not like now, with ABB, malaysia can really enjoy free, fair and peaceful GE….. well done ABB…
“YB Lim can highlight this issue, but I trust his judgment and experience in this…” – oknyua
I agree. The case is a political and legal minefield that one who comments or raises issues has to tread carefully or risk blown off by C4! :)
Our whole administration of justice system is watched by the world and is on trial.
I think the public would want many issues raised in Parliament pertaining to just not conduct of the judicial proceedings relating to postponements and delays but also arguably certain controversial aspects of police investigation as well as prosecutorial conduct.
It is not necessary for me to specifically identify these issues here that could be read in other blogs including RPK’s Malaysia today.
The problem is defining the limits of sub judice rule balanced against Parliamentary privilege in respect of Freedom of Expression. In my last posting I have touched on certain questions, the raising of which is arguably not infringing that rule.
What is uncertain however is the raising of certain important other questions relating to police investigation as well as prosecutorial conduct, which may or may not – I am not certain here – constitute sub judice.
It is interesting to note that as far as Hindraf Five goes, nobody seems to be bothered abut sub judice in contrast to Altantuya’s case – why is this so???
I could be mistaken but as far as I know the ISA detention of the Hindraf was confirmed by High Court at end of last year, Karpal Singh appealed to Federal Court, made his submissions (I think AG too made his submissions around the first week of this month April) and the Federal Court hearing the appeal has not as yet delivered its decision.
So raising the issue of Hindraf 5 in Parliament could also technically be considered sub judice (ie influencing decision of Federal Court) but so far it has not been considered so as evinced by YB’s notice to Parliament to have an urgent debate for the release of the Hindraf Five but the same is not true for Altantuya’s issues.
I wonder why. I must have missed something important or different here that set Altantuya’s case apart from the Hundraf 5!
Having said that, there is yet another practical problem : who makes ruling under parliamentary standing Orders on whether a motion on issues related to Altantuya may be debated or not on grounds of sub judice?
It is the Speaker (Tan Sri Pandikar Amin Mulia) and yesterday both the deputy speaker positions went to BN’s Datuk Dr Wan Junaidi and Datyuk Ronald Kiandee – none from the Opposition camp!
So how???
Let me complete the sentence I wrote earlier;
“The 3 questions you mentioned are also issues that Abdullah need to answer and he failed to do likewise.” To me, AAB himself is on trial.
Wait a minute guys…
Why there is so much concern and urgency in closing the issue of Altantuya ?
There are hundreds if not thousands of cases that waiting to be heard in our courts. As such why should be prioritise this particular case when our own citizens have been waiting for years ? If you say this is of public interest, I would still disagree. There are many cases of even greater importance still waiting trials.
Why can’t Dr Shaariibuu wait for the law to take its course like every one else ? While he has my deep sympathies but he is not the only one who has lost a loved one.
By bringing this matter in the Parliament LKS will be accused of subverting the legal process and interfering in the work of the judiciary.
And please explain how do you hold AAB responsible for the delay in trial when when are clamouring for a separation of the executive and the judiciary ?
“I was emotional after learning about how the father of the murdered Mongolian Altantuya Shaariibuu was treated by the arrogant BN leaders this morning.” Dr W.
Dr W, can you please explain your statement ?
“And please explain how do you hold AAB responsible for the delay in trial when when are clamouring for a separation of the executive and the judiciary ?” – Killer
AAB is fully responsible for the delay as he was the one who recommended the CJ and those under CJ, if they are not performing and incompetent, and as a result of that, all the cases are delayed etc. .Dont you think AAB should be responsible by now???
Please look at Singapore and other countries that have revamped their courts not in terms of physical buildings but the software side of it!!!! Time to change!!!
Dear Uncle Lim,
Go for it!!
We as Malaysians Support you 110% for your efforts.
Give these BN jokers HELL!!
///If you say this is of public interest, I would still disagree. There are many cases of even greater importance still waiting trials/// – Killer.
Maybe you can shed some light on (1) which of the many cases are of even greater importance and (2) exactly why they are of even greater importance than Altantuya’s case.
I have been away from this blog for a few months and some familiar names are not around too – when this “killer” came in.
I read some of your postings around here, “killer.” I think I know where you come from, but all the same, welcome. As long our interactions are civil, it’s all right. I may stay longer this time around, except sometimes work lah, can’t read everything.
1. Dr. W comment is shared by me. Do you have any daughter, killer? The trial started last year, how far are they in the case?
2. Hundreds and thousands of cases – there you admitted it. Judges that don’t write judgement? Gov’t prosecutors postpone cases? It’s not a problem of today, so what? We just sit and watch?
3. Dr Shaarriibu is waiting for the law to take its course and he had been waiting and waiting. How long should he wait when the case had been postponed 3 or 3 times?
4. Why is AAB not answering the letters from PM of Mongolia – is this for the court to decide?
5. You mean there’s already separation between executive and judiciary? Thanks, I don’t know that.
The compelling reason is to do everything that we can to hasten the demise of the federal regime. There is not a day that goes by that doesn’t have news of a scandal unearthed somewhere in Bolehland.
The impasses between state governments and the federal government is another lesson for all of us – we can’t have opposition controlled state governments that can hope to work with the BN federal government. Worse, this also applies in Trengganu, where the BN chief minister wants control of oil revenues in opposition to his boss in Putrajaya. The longer these impasses go on, the worse the economy will be and we all go down the drain together. Except, of course, for the UMNOputras who will already have hedged their bets with their properties and bank accounts outside of Bolehland.
Ya, it is true that we simply do not have the culture to rise above party politics to work together for the betterment of Malaysia. It is preferred that PK takes over the Federal government as soon as possible provided the component parties have sufficient number of capable people to helm the numerous ministries, departments, statutory bodies, municipalities and GLCs etc. I shudder at the thinking that PK has to rely on the same old people from BN when they take over the Federal Government. If we want to change, let have the complete change – no piecemeal and no incremental.
Once their jobs are on the line, you will find that the civil service will fall in line and start working. It starts from the top, and we definitely have to change at the very top of the GLCs, civil service, municipalities. As to whether there are sufficient people to replace them, I think we could be surprised that there are lots of qualified people who will put up their hands.
Meritocracy begets meritocracy. Unwinding the years of abuse and neglect will be difficult, but we have to do it for the sake of future generations.
55 NGO is funded by BN? why they wanted to sabotage Opposition govts? Do u know most of these NGO leader are filthy rich ppl., they drove a BMW or Benz or have been to everywhere. Why do we need NGO? who the f… are they to interfere with govt. affair, why they never criticize the BN govt. while they ruled for 17 yrs, only now the f, gots, come and criticize the opposition govt, do they think opposition govt. are gullible?
Stupid rich ppl. NGO.
I wish and hope so. My posting above was prompted by the appointment of LKC – which may be due to lack of talent and experience, or the need to promote new culture, new inclusive politics etc, I really don’t know. So, it was just thinking aloud.
For a long time already, NGOs are vehicles to siphon money from the government. The opposition should start investigating – all of them including those who purportedly performing charity functions – like amanah here and amanah there, trust me.
Some people view Lee Kah Choon’s appointment negatively in that they say that there are many others who are better qualified. If so, then LGE is taking a huge risk on the performance of the guy. Only time can tell whether or not senior appointments made by Pakatan have been made judiciously. What is clear is that the current impasse between the federal government and the state governments is leading to stagflation in Bolehland.
Everything is going up in price, but salaries and new opportunities are simply lagging behind.
Keep on talking, keep on bragging and keep on hoping.
None will work!
Only way to release those detainees are to wipe them off for good.
Umno are like virus.
Whoever takes over as PM are infected with bad characters and attitude.
“For a long time already, NGOs are vehicles to siphon money from the government. The opposition should start investigating – all of them including those who purportedly performing charity functions – like amanah here and amanah there, trust me.”
I strongly believed in your statement, these NGO heads dress like a poor but they drive around in big Benz and BMW when they talked they seems to be around the world from Australia, UK, Singapore and all the developed countries, where they got so much money, the previous state govt. have paid them well so that they keep their mouth shut for 17 yrs. Only now they said wanted to do something.
Let’s BAN all NGOs, NGO head should be appointed by their members not sitting there for 17 yrs and now only wanted to tell the state govt. what to do.
I think Ramasamy cousin is in one of those NGOs speaking on behalf of women’s welfare group, but not sure whether she is among the 55 NGOs who rants the new state govt.
As a penangites i never know the existence of 55 NGOs who are they? are they BN money gatherer, funds siphoner, new state govt. nemesis, since they are Non Government Organisation it is not HALAL or illegal to interfere with state matters.
Do 55 NGOs wanted to get themselves involved in state affairs? their stupidity & rash act is worst than Gerakan.
I don’t trust any of the NGO’s.
They are just a bunch of people who are waiting for big oppurtunities to come.
If they sees money, they’re willing to sell you out!
Not much difference from those BN component parties.
No!
Good!
Organisation!
That’s the real meaning of NGO!
oknyua
So what do you want AAB to do ? Order the judge to finish the trial in a week ? Is this is kind of interference we want to see ?
As I had mentioned before, Dr Shaarriibu is not the only one who had lost a loved one. There many others in the same or even worse situation. So what’s the discriminatory treatment ?
You guys talk about Dr Shaarriibu having to wait for so long. What about those who are under trial ? We cannot assume they are guilty until they are proven guilty right ? Isn’t it unfair that they have to stay in jail until the trial is over, even if they are innocent ?
I am sorry, I can’t buy this argument.
lakilompat Says:
Today at 17: 10.48 (7 minutes ago)
I think Ramasamy cousin is in one of those NGOs speaking on behalf of women’s welfare group, but not sure whether she is among the 55 NGOs who rants the new state govt.
As a penangites i never know the existence of 55 NGOs who are they? are they BN money gatherer, funds siphoner, new state govt. nemesis, since they are Non Government Organisation it is not HALAL or illegal to interfere with state matters.
Do 55 NGOs wanted to get themselves involved in state affairs? their stupidity & rash act is worst than Gerakan.
It is strange that you guys blasting NGOs for daring to criticise the DAP state govt ? I thought you guys stood for democratic principles. Or may be because DAP is above criticism ?
Killer,
Don’t worry, we know how and when to criticise DAP or PK when occasions arise. We people here are not as blind as you to 50 years of BN’s rule. So what if we don’t know what DAP and PK are doing, but they are not even 2 months old. What about you, do you know what BN was doing the last 50 years? We know injustice, corruption, and abuse of money and power when we see one. There is no need for you to act like you are the “fountain” of all justice when come to court cases.
YES HINDRAF 5 MUST BE RELEASED UNCONDITIONALLY! THEY ARE INNOCENT AND GO KNOWS!!!
ALTANUYA MUST NOT DIE IN VAIN. THOSE MURDERERS MUST PAY FOR THIS MOST DESPICABLE ACT!!!
Killer:
AAB hasn’t even finished reading his 600 page report from last year, so he isn’t in a position to tell the judge to speed up. If he can “order” the judge to do something, then I guess our system is completely screwed up.
“Isn’t it unfair that they have to stay in jail until the trial is over, even if they are innocent?” Killer
If the trial is protracted which is unusually so in this case, the continued incarceration of the accused in the only type of prison he could be incarcerated i.e. along with those convicted prisoners, in the same living conditions etc would appear to be unfair to him, if he is later found not guilty – definitely so when he is also innocent of the crime he has been accused of and tried.
An accused like Razak Baginda in a jurisdiction like the U.K. or the U.S. and most of the other jurisdictions, would likely be freed on bail of some $5 million or more. Apart from the veracity of the evidence against the accused, the judge will also have to consider the likelihood of flight (flight risk) when setting bail. His passport will have to be surrendered to the court. In most jurisdictions I should say murder is still a bailable offence. One way the judge skirts around the constitutional right of the accused to remain free is to set a very high bail – in many of these capital crime cases some $10 million or more is not that rare.
But you are right, Killer, about the presumption of innocence. But please note: an accused is never found ‘guilty’ or ‘innocent’ at the end of the trial but instead ‘guilty’ or ‘not guilty’.
Remand prisoners, on the other hand, are detained in country club like conditions while waiting to be charged. Remember Malaysia’s Lorraine Esme Osman the longest remand prisoner in the world?
There are reports of a number of such remand prisoners in Malaysian jails who are but all forgotten by their captors. These people have no family members and nobody knows who they are. They have been locked and have had the keys thrown away!
Think about them too. The Legal Aid Bureau offers some glimmer of hope to these individuals. But all said, our system is primitive by world standards.
“It is interesting to note that as far as Hindraf Five goes, nobody seems to be bothered about sub judice in contrast to Altantuya’s case – why is this so???” JeffreyQC
In the former, the detainees have yet to be charged for crimes they were alleged to have committed. In the case of the latter, there is an ongoing trial.
Just like not all public statements made must fall foul of the rule, granted you could still fall foul of the rule even before the trial has commenced. The sub judice rule covers pre-trial proceedings.
But what of the case when those detained have yet to be charged and no allegations have been formally made?
“Parliament is not the place to decide on the outcome (Altantuya case), but certainly YB Lim can highlight the frequent delays and postponements of this case.” Oknyua
Depending on how the question is framed, it may not necessarily infringe the sub judice rule. But what good would a question addressed to the AG like “Why is the trial taking so long” be when the answer to it is “It is up to the court and not for us to say how long the trial should or should not take because that would mean usurping the role of the courts.”
The fact that statements are made in Parliament does not exempt it from the working of this rule.
there is no way out for BN clowns, it is sunset days from now onwards,
if they are so smart as the have bragged all this 50 years, while we the common folks being denied and prevented from voicing our plight and misery and have to give the nod under duress through stupid and ball-less MP and dummmy dun.
we would not be in this state and they in limousine and all dressed up for an orchestra and suprano recitals.
We are to blame because we do not have many like the H5, so lets get the H5 out before we forgets as we did so easily.
Why free only the Hindraf 5??? What about those still in ISA detention????
YB Kit Siang,
If Dato Seri Anwar Ibrahim became the 6th Malaysian PM, who should be his deputy ?
Visit sonofpenang.blogspot.com for the survey.
FREE THEM ?? I dont think so! It will says something like that….”With the pleasure of his majesty, they would be still continue to be detained”.
But when UMNO division heads who asked the PM to step down, why they are not being detained by ISA? In my opinion, is a threat to the nation’s stability and security. Because you cant just ask a PM to step down like this.
I agree it is a threat to stability to ask the PM to step down – because he might fall in the process.
As for the village idiot with the empty space between his ears, well he is mentally unstable which is subject for another day.
Assuming that the administration of justice is completely hopeless and poorly executed, may I know who is responsible? Is it that simple to say “it is up to the court to say how long the trial should or should not take because to interfere would mean usurping the role of the courts?”
If the people are not happy with the administration of justice, what resource do they have? Who do they complain to – the chief justice, the minister (responsible for law), the parliament? Who would be most effective in resolving the poor administration of justice? Hope some of you can help.
When Confucious said “Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed” he didn’t say it for nothing.
Seriously, i think i am ignorant and therefore can be fixed. But i hope the one who thinks he knows all is not in fact stupid.
When you make public statements about an ongoing trial which goes beyond the bare statement of the facts of the case, you would be pre-judging the case with your comments and if Parliament were to do that it would be usurping the role of the judiciary.
Jeffrey QC has written well on the subject of sub judice.
It is clearly not a case of ignorance.
If you are unable to see the difference between the two subjects i.e. matters of administration of justice and an ongoing trial for the murder of one Altantuya, it is not a case of ignorance.
I think I roughly know what sub judice means. I know it is difficult to raise questions in the parliament for specific court cases when the trial is on-going. But my question is a general question. My question is prompted by so much discussion about separation of power etc, and suddenly I thought about poor administration of justice in general and I just don’t have clear answer who is responsible. Please, I sincerely and genuinely have no intention to irritate anyone.
I interpret the delay and continuous postponement of trial in our courts as one aspect of poor administration of justice.
I still think Confucious has been right all along.
ya, confucious could be right, but it is not I am the one who is wrong.
If we want to change, let have a complete change – no piecemeal or incremental – limkamput.
Totally agree. The foundation is rotten and unstable – you got to start from the foundation, that means get rid of the existing foundation and structure to build a better future with security and a piece of mind for the ordinary people.
Sotong,
I see you’re in the construction business.
Altantuya’s case implicates government’s security details (Tindakan Khas/Special Action Unit) of political VIPs and C4 not normally obtainable by even police personnel. It is a case laden with political implications by which Mongolia’s diplomatic tie with the country is also on the line. It is not delay per se – like other cases – that has been criticized. There have been public criticisms of the investigations and the prosecution process as well. (I don’t have to go to details here). There lies one major difference.There are also other anomalies as well even in strange conduct of Altantuya’s father ( Dr Shaariibuu Setev ). On April 22nd, Bernama reported Dr Shaariibuu met up with the Lead Deputy Public Prosecutor in the trial, Tun Abdul Majid Tun Hamzah and “was satisfied with Tun Majid’s explanation that the delay was because High Court Judge Datuk Mohd Zaki Md Yasin had lot of other priority cases to hear and that counsel in the trial also had other court cases to handle”. If he were satisfied it seems odd that 6 days later on 28th April he went to Parliament on its first day opening to deliver to MPs and both PM and DPM a one-page letter appealing for the help in relation to the case against backdrop of earlier disclosure that he had got new evidence to be presented, that two letters were sent by the Mongolian prime minister to ours late last year and that Mongolia had threatened to break diplomatic ties with Malaysia if there was justice done to his daughter’s murder. Was there anything intervening in period from 22nd to 28th April that changed the nuance of his stance???
In respect to Killer’s statement “if you say this is of public interest, I would still disagree. There are many cases of even greater importance still waiting trials”, I would say that Altantuya’s case is not comparable at all, does not stand in same position or measure of importance (from public stand point) as many other run of the mill cases (involving own citizens) awaiting judicial resolution delayed by postponements. Because of the heavy political undertones of the case, Malaysian administration of justice is also on trial before the ‘courts of public and international opinion and other stakeholders.
“….to break diplomatic ties with Malaysia if there was NO justice done to his daughter’s murder…”
Jeffrey QC,
My posting on the Altantuya case seems lost in cyber space for the second day now!
In the U.S. a trial like this would take perhaps a week or less to complete.
If posting long, break it into serial smaller segments : longer one in a block inclines to trigger moderation.
Respond to Killer:-
“It is strange that you guys blasting NGOs for daring to criticise the DAP state govt ?”
God damn it where are the NGOs for the past 17 yrs when Gerakan is holding the govt. post. Eating their rice, planting their trees, smoking their pipes while waiting for the busses?
“I thought you guys stood for democratic principles. Or may be because DAP is above criticism ?”
Democratic does not mean we have to harps on everything before we see the result. Non governmental should not interfere with governmental decision, this has already become a norm for the past 17 yrs, if like that why not YB LGE appoint the 55 NGOs head become the state EXCO? What kind of stupid NGOs if its mere existence is to arrange picket? BN, UMNO, Gerakan or MCA can easily pump it some funds to NGOs account so that they can go protest, NGOs is Malaysia is run by filthy rich ppl. for the past 17 yrs. It is hopeless to revive them.
We penangites not many know abt them, don’t forget Gerakan can turn into NGOs as well with the current Federal Govt. backing to backfire the state govt.
So all Penangites should Anti NGOs from now ON. I will be the leader to boycott NGOs for their past 17 yrs failures in contributing to Penang society in general.
Can you all give me the leader name of these 55 NGOs, there will be some planning, an anti NGOs movement, which i will start in Penang.
Main objective to educate the people that these 55 NGOs leaders are backed by Federal Govt. to discourage cooperation of different parties. Now Penang have this 55 stupid NGOs head, state govt. should support anti NGOs movement, which i will be the leader primary objective to tell ppl these NGOs are fully backed and funded by federal govt. to picket, and oppose the newly formed PR states.
DAP is a generous parties it always give the opportunity to the suitable candidate irregardless of his or her personal agenda such as political party, in this case one can relate to LKC appointment as Penang Invest and PDC head.
Moderator, do you really know who “killer” is?
Guys, you need to refine your language while answering “killer.” There is nothing more pleasing to him than seeing you guys using rough language, and posting remarks against each other.
All the same, I must congrats the quick gov’t response in answering issues in the blogs.
Now the Federal govt. funding the newspaper & 55 NGOs idiotic dog leader to go against the state govt. what else Penangites will see in another 3 yrs. Who interested to join anti NGOs movement in Penang come to my site jbozz23.proboards105.com
Primary objective is to educate the NGOs members so that they are aware that the Federal is funding the head not the members, the members are been deceived to join the 55 NGOs as a tools, the leader should be crucified.
NGOs should focus more on non governmental decision which might impact on society, not the government decision to appointment, if want to be involved in governmental affairs go form a party NGO for the next GE so that the ppl. can vote for NGOs to represent them.
Pls publish the name of the 55 NGOs leader they will be the “halal to crucified” in Penang.
Dear Grace,
“ALTANUYA MUST NOT DIE IN VAIN. THOSE MURDERERS MUST PAY FOR THIS MOST DESPICABLE ACT!!!”
It’s already more than 2 yrs, 24 months, 730 days, 17,520 Hrs, 1,051,200 seconds.
The final verdict will be like Norita case? Mr. Razak released.
Correction for 2 yrs, 24 months, 730 days, 17,520 Hrs, [1,051,200 seconds.], not 1,051,200 seconds, but minutes.
1,051,200 seonds = 12 days 4 hours only
Internationally, the accepted norm is “GUILTY AS CHARGED”, but in Malaysia it is “GUILTY AS UNCHARGED”!!!!!!
Killer, are you happy with my answer?
“And please explain how do you hold AAB responsible for the delay in trial when when are clamouring for a separation of the executive and the judiciary ?” – Killer
AAB is fully responsible for the delay as he was the one who recommended the CJ and those under CJ, if they are not performing and incompetent, and as a result of that, all the cases are delayed etc. .Dont you think AAB should be responsible by now???
Please look at Singapore and other countries that have revamped their courts not in terms of physical buildings but the software side of it!!!! Time to change!!!
Gentlement,
Please understand why NGOs were making noise now. They made noise because they wanted to be heard by the new Penang Govn. . They kept quiet for the past 17 years because they knew that whatever noise they made would not be heard after all, so why make noise??? this is human physchology!!! so give them a break!!!
Important Note: Keeping quiet doesnt mean that they are happy, at the same time, making noise doesnt mean that they are not happy!!! Got it!!
“Please understand why NGOs were making noise now”
Who the hell are they to interfere with the current opposition state? are they elected by the ppl. to manage state affairs.
I would prefer NGOs to drive other areas rather than political affairs.
I will spit on those 55 NGOs if i know their faces because there’s no respect at all, who the hell they think they can interfere with politic, are they hypocrites?
55 NGOs should go form a govt. Now i will go print NO to NGOs, if i knew who the stupid head from these 55 NGOs who pickett. The previous govt. do all the bad things, the privatisation of the reclaim land they never go to boycott, now the YB LGE appointment is a political maneuver for a better Malaysia they come to picket, this show they wanted to get their “s” involved in politic.
To all the 55 NGOs leaders go to HELL! Penangites don’t want U.
Penangites need NGOs who boycott with SENSE not those who go against the new state govt.
These stupid rich head of NGOs has no SHAME at all cos most rich people are fearless and always think they are RIGHT, they now wanted to be politician as WELL due to the fact they cannot accept the PEOPLE mandate to interfere using NGOs name. GO TO HELL LAH! WHY nobody dare to reveal where these 55 NGOs live.
There’s a group of ANTI NGOs wanted to donate RED paints in Penang just publish the 55 NGOs leader name, contact and address in Penang, these ANTI NGOs members will be delighted to give them a good service.
When these 55 NGOs did that, do u think all the NGOs members agreed? dun be NAIVE, who are the 55 NGOs members agreed? is there a list of ppl. involved?
I urge YB LGE to ban all NGOs in Penang state, their EXISTENCE is irrelevant, already 17 yrs NGOs are not relevant, they are there to cheat Penangites, only certain rich family in Penang who has nothing better to do will join them and contribute to NGOs. Just because they are RICH doesn’t mean they represent the vast majority of Penang who are average and poor. Also RICH ppl like to involved themselves in POLITIC becos they think they are RICH and POWERFUL and can TALK louder and also they like to make use of NGO to voice drive their AGENDA. It’s been 17 yrs BN government denied them, with the new state govt. (PEOPLE MANDATE) all NGOs should be reviewed and BAN if necessary.
Pls give the 55 NGOs in Penang. The anti NGOs are very eager, they need to forecast how many RED PAINT is needed, and arrange for transportation.
I repeated 1 more times, NGOs = GOVERN BY RICH PPL (No longer worry abt. food) mostly represented by RICH PENANGITES as these social group has nothing better to do than to keep Quiet and slowly hibernate themselves for 17 yrs. When OPPORTUNITY come they leap out from hibernation like a pack of hungry wolves, STUPID and IGNORANCE. That’s why we need ANTI-NGOS to teach them and become their watchdog for every single stupid move they did.
Penangites majority of them work very hard, do u think 55 NGOs have few millionth of members who agreed with them? is there a proper vote saying, these leaders are been voted? NO absolutely, whoever is the leader are because of they are RICH and has been there for some time, there’s no democratic within NGOs as well to appoint who should led and who should not. If u ask them questions, they will push or hide them. These bunch of RICH HYPOCRITES in Penang should be BAN as well.
YB LGE i suggested you REVIEW and AUDIT NGOs or send some needles to check how these NGOs appoint their leaders, and please review to PENANGITES the TRUE picture of the so called NGOs.
Although Koh Tsu Koon wife is out from any govt. agency, she can still use her influence to support NGOs, her friend is inside all the RICH aunty and uncle in Penang.
How much money the previous state govt. use to silence NGOs. Look at their (NGOs) filthy face u know already they can keep quiet becos of those grants deposit to their account for them to enjoy.
The current govt. did not pour in that funds, they (NGOs) will start to harps thinking the current state govt. is “GULLIBLE” ?
///I must congrats the quick gov’t response in answering issues in the blogs///- oknyua.
Must be a result of post mortem on 8th March Tsunami, many attribute it in part to not sufficient attention being given to challenges of blogosphere. The marked upgrading of competence – if you use as benchmark past standards – deserve some congrats too… :)
In reference to oknyua’s “congrats to the quick gov’t response in answering issues in the blogs”, congrats too is due also to the marked upgrading of standards from that before experienced here in this blog in the past (Realworld, for example) now that it is realised after post mortem, that insufficient attention had been paid by them to meet challenges of blogosphere, which has been blamed as in part contributory to the electoral debacle of 8th March 2008 :)
Can anyone please name the 55 NGOs head, where they lived and what type, color, and model of car they drive, if got car plate much better.
ANTI BN NGOs is on its move to HALT their stupidity in Penang. Who is interested to join go to my website:
jbozz23.proboards105.com
Our creed is to destroy BN NGOs in Penang. Their existence
1) Hinder future infrastructure in Penang for our childrens & when we get old Penangites has to bear more to build later (The delay of 2nd bridge)
2) NGOs should focus on non governmental affairs to benefit the society not political party e.g. Sabotaging the State govt. within 1 months, while close one eye on BN govt. for 17 yrs in Penang.
3) Stop the filthy rich strata group in Penang to hold position as head of NGOs, these ppl. has nothing better to do than to pickett for whoever can provide the funds e.g. the BN govt. at the expense of state funds which has been diverted to regain BN parties in the next election.
4) Prosecute and Execute them once known, till they step down, special patrol car will be out to check where these 55 BN NGOs lived and their car etc.
5) Without BN NGOs, other NGOs who don’t have any vested interest in politic should be appointed by the state govt. The filthy rich strata group in Penang should not hold these position.
Law in Malaysia is inadequate, there are too many loopholes, and they are countless of failed law reform till today. With these loopholes, the best way to deal with these 55 BN NGOs is to ban & review them regularly. Transparency is important, they must reveal to all Penangites who they are, and who support the move to oppose the State govt. We Penangites will take action using the loopholes available.
Loopholes are exploited by the rich and influential. That’s why foreigner investor would rather shift their hub to country like China, although the set up cost is high but it can be subsidize by its overwhelming market. At the moment FedEx hub is in Philipines it will soon shift to China. As u know, Philipines political change is a threatening signals. Malaysia is no exception, federal govt. keep re channeling the state funds to their own political agency e.g. Bakti and 55 NGOs purpose to accomplish their political agendas. This send a very strong and repulsive signals to foreigner investors.
Big companies like VW experienced the brute, ignorance and arrogance of the BN govt. when their delegates are here to negotiate Proton-VW merger. End up the filthy Rafidah charge them, if u wan to sell Malaysian car, i will charge u extremely high duty, VW said OK come on we are not scare, Malaysian are rich enough and stupid enough like ur govt. to buy more expensive car for many many years. That’s how the VW car is so so expensive selling in Malaysia. VW wanted to control the costly Proton, but at the expense of all UMNO cronies inferior sub contractor. Proton car always have defect, the power windows, and many more technical parts defect etc. So why, Malaysian still buy so expensive car from their own producer? Is this act of patriotic cost Malaysian the opportunity cost to develop other sector?
Our buying power are been limited due to expensive car, we are then tightened to spend on other goods. This is obviously not healthy compare to other developing country like Thailand. The more you can buy the other sector will improve, now u r tightened becos the BN govt. failed their simple Economics, they rather preferred “Croninomics” (Cronies + Economics) in Malaysia.
lakilompat,
Please control your emotion a bit lah, else you become laki rompak and your suggestions seemed to be worst than living under BN control if carried out i.e. to damage the properties of NGO leaders etc and to punish rich men etc. . There are good and bad rich men, there are good and bad poor men, too. So, please dont generalise all the rich men to be bad people, if you are not happy with the leaders of these NGOs, please just condemn them as they are and not to slam all the rich men in Malaysia or on earth!!! If you continue to behave like this in this blog or other blogs, what you write will be discounted at least 80%, for me, I will skip your comments in the near future if this trend continues!!!
Rich = The 55 Rich BN NGOs pls shows their name
In Selangor the Malay leader are been paid RM 50 per swine approved, there’s 250,000 swines proposed, that’s RM 12.5 millions what a lucrative business just watching the figure change. With those, they can build another bungalows, buy another Benz, and go UK in 1st class.
i_love_malaysia, if u truly love Malaysia, u should do the same to catch the 55 stupid NGOs head who don’t dare to reveal their name, the Anti BN NGOs will make sure they learn it thru the loopholes the BN govt. has created.
Most rich ppl. end up getting daughter, well, what a miserable end to their heritage. I’m not anti rich, i’m telling the rich to shud up, focus on society rather than ranting & interfere with state affairs, Penang is made up by average and poor strata group, they don’t bother or even give a shyt on NGOs, so why bother to allow the press to let them publicize themselves, what a hypocrite, NGO stand for Non Governmental Organisation now has become Governmental? should focus on those average and poor majority of the population, that need NGOs attention, such as those who take bus, Transport Group, the disable, the disable group, the environment, those poor who still lived under the bridge and ghettos in Teluk Bahang etc. What about poverty group in Penang, wat shyt they have done? there is none there, the Poverty NGOs, aren’t u guys shameless.
The only FINGER i can point these 55 filthy rich BN NGOs head are funded and supported by the BN govt. to regain its pathetic performance in the past.
And well, YB LKS blog, u will see some ppl. who can’t accept the majority results.
They can lock up five Hindraf leaders, another five hundred will emerge. By the time they lock up these five hundred, perhaps five thousand or maybe fifty thousand Hindraf leaders will be born. So when can the lock up ALL Hindraf leaders???