At the joint media conference on April 1 to announce PKR, DAP and PAS decision to take the next logical step to the March 8, 2008 political tsunami with the three parties tentatively agreeing to establish a Pakatan Rakyat (a proposal and term subject to confirmation by the three respective parties), I said that March 8 general election results were a clear and unmistakable message from the people that they want the three parties to work together to bring about changes in the country to restore justice, freedom, democracy and good governance – and not for an Islamic state or hudud laws.
I was asked by a reporter today whether my statement that the March 8 political tsunami was a demand for change to restore justrice, freedom, democracy and good governance and not for an Islamic state and hudud laws applied only to non-Muslims and non-Malays.
I replied in the negative, as I believe that it is not only the non-Malays and non-Muslims but also the Malays and Muslims who voted solidly on March 8 for justice, freedom, democracy and good governance and not for Islamic state and hudud laws – producing for the first time in 50 years of Malaysian electoral history the national phenomenon of cross-race and cross-religion voting – DAP voters voted for PAS candidates and PAS voters voting for DAP candidates.
Just as it was a great mistake after the 1999 general election to regard its results as a vote for Islamic state and hudud laws (resulting in the DAP leaving the Barisan Alternative in 2001), it will be an equally cardinal error to interpret the March 8, 2008 general election result as a mandate for Islamic state and hudud laws.
It is pertinent to revisit the reasons why DAP had to pull out of Barisan Alternative in 2001. The following is an extract from a statement I made on 30th June 2001, entitled: “BA at crossroads and no more tenable”:
Barisan Alternative is at the crossroads as it is no more tenable with PAS leaders openly flouting the BA common manifesto for “A Just and Democratic Malaysia” and disregarding the opposition of the other three component parties towards an Islamic State.
The Barisan Alternative would not have been formed in the first place to take on the Barisan Nasional as one united front in the 1999 general election if PAS was not prepared to respect the opposition of DAP, Keadilan and PRM to an Islamic State, focussing on the common objectives of restoring justice, freedom, democracy and good governance in Malaysia.
Barisan Alternative leaders should face up to the unpalatable fact that in the next general election, whether 2003 or 2004, if the voters are faced with the choice between an Islamic State and a sixth term of Datuk Seri Dr. Mahathir Mohamad as Prime Minister, the choice would be the latter as Mahathir would already be close to eighty and cannot remain at the helm of government for long while voting for an Islamic State would be the start of a journey which could not inspire confidence and hope from the experience of other countries.
Before the 1999 general election, PAS leaders were at pains to help the other Barisan Alternative parties and leaders to assure the people that the Opposition Front was founded purely on the common objectives of restoring justice, freedom, democracy and good governance and was no agreement on an Islamic State. PAS leaders even went out of their way to explain that there was no basis to worry about an Islamic State as PAS was fielding less than one-third of the parliamentary candidates and could not have the two-thirds parliamentary majority necessary to alter the Constitution for the establishment of an Islamic State.
Of late, however, PAS leaders have decided to openly and publicly disregard the opposition of the other component parties of the Barisan Alternative to an Islamic State and flout the Barisan Alternative Manifesto “Towards A Just and Democratic Malaysia” by publicly reiterating its commitment to an Islamic State.
For instance, the Selangor Bar Journal May 2001 in an exclusive interview with the PAS deputy president Abdul Hadi bin Awang said that at the top of the agenda of a PAS-led Federal Government once it is returned to power is to commence implementing Islamic law, starting with the amendment of Article 4 of the Malaysian Constitution to enable Islamic enactment which are in conflict with laws passed by Parliament to prevail, such as the death sentence for apostasy.
Hadi said that if Malaysia came under Islamic rule an act against the religion would be construed as an act against the State, which would be tantamount to treason for which the sentence was death.
He said: “The laws on apostasy only bind Muslims and do not affect non-Muslims but a non-Muslim should be aware of the consequences of apostasy before converting because then he would come under the purview of Islamic law.”
PAS leaders should not expect Malaysians, both Muslims and non-Muslims, to be unconcerned about such a position, not only from the human rights principles of freedom and justice, but also because of the raging controversy among Muslims including a significant body of opinion among the ulama from the earliest Islamic history that apostasy is not a capital crime as the Qu’ran is completely silent on the death penalty for apostasy.
PAS president Datuk Fadzil Noor from Manchester yesterday urged the DAP not to make a hasty decision by leaving the opposition front over the Islamic state issue or the DAP will be walking right into the Barisan Nasional trap.
DAP will not take the “easy way out” or “walk right into the Barisan Nasional trap” and this was why the DAP had insisted immediately after the last general election that there should be Barisan Alternative leadership dialogues to iron out our ideological differences over an Islamic State. I must say, however, that the dialogue held on June 16, 2001 to deal with the issue had been most unsatisfactory.
The issue confronting the Barisan Alternative is whether the PAS leaders are prepared to respect the DAP’s opposition to an Islamic State in Malaysia not because of anti-Islam sentiments but because an Islamic State in multi-racial and multi-religious Malaysia is not compatible with parliamentary democracy, power-sharing in a plural society, human rights and individual freedoms, women’s rights and social tolerance.
DAP respects PAS for its ideological position on the Islamic State, but in a modern, multi-racial and multi-religious society where non-Muslims comprise some 40 per cent of the population, and where it is not only non-Malays but Malays who oppose the establishment of an Islamic State, is PAS prepared to be realistic and concede that its Islamic State concept is not a practical or feasible proposition or option for Malaysia?
The rest is history. Can we larn from the lessons of history?
Sir,
PAS’s top leaders have to make a statement to be in line with PAKATAN. It has to be made to beg to join i can say do. Their grrass roots have to be fully aware of this development… all their literature and media must manefest the PAKATAN secular manefesto..
Kit:
I see that you have given in to the extremist faction in DAP by openly calling for PAS to “concede that its Islamic State concept is not a practical or feasible proposition or option for Malaysia”. I think it is most unwise, for I can now see the demise of Pakatan Rakyat. I can see the demise of the state governments in Perak and Selangor. I can see fairminded people moving from DAP to PKR. Worse, I can BN now exploiting this issue to the full, and there will be no end to the articles in the mainstream press.
Questions for you:
1. Why raise the issue publicly now when the PAS sentiments were actually raised by PAS Youth and not by Nik Aziz ?
2. Why provide a such a “welcomed” diversion for Badawi and UMNO in their current struggle ?
3. Can there be no compromise behind the scenes e.g. agreeing to certain states like Kelantan, Perlis, Trengganu and Kedah being subject to syariah law ?
Despite your years of experience in politics, I still see blunders being committed – and I think perhaps you are better off at being the Opposition rather than the governing party.
Hi YB Kit,
I hope justice is done by posting the email address of all DAP Aduns and MPs. Questions posted via DAP’s general mail has yet to be answered.
Please do justice to voters like us who have voted in DAP.
You guys (PAS and DAP) are destined to be barking dogs in the Opposition, for you will never learn the lesson of the March 8 tsunami.
Uncle Kit,
Please discuss sensitive issues like these behind close doors in the Pakatan spirit.
You are right when you say that we voted for everything else except for the Islamis state and hudud. PAS should respect the Non Malays and Non Muslims who voted for PAS.
WE DID NOT VOTE FOR AN ISLAMIC STATE OR HUDUD
Sdr Lim senior,
[ Towards a Malaysian Malaysia }
You are right to suggest that there are two different issues for the electorate here.
1. Voting the government for the nation
2. Religious Governance
1.
a. Voting the government in…..was first considered during the S46 challenge….never before, because the opposition could never mount a strong enough challenge….hence the label `opposition’ sticks until even today.
b. The March 8th results show that it is possible for another coalition to rule the country, and this question will become not just a question but a true challenge come 2012 or earlier.
c. The Rakyat chose….and brought down the two-third majority.
Governance according to secular vs Islamic or religious principles is another issue that should [if ever] be handled by a national referendum, involving a major constitutional change.
If ever it comes to pass, the question of the other citizens who are Buddhists, Hindus, Christians, etc has to be and will definitely be addressed.
Thus, the ordinary citizen…muslim or non-muslim need not be concerned about the second question even if PAS sweeps across the nation, because there must surely be various steps, considerations and discussions before that situation arises.
Catch no ball with Godfather’s holy comments… =/
In fact PAS has excluded Islamic state/ hudud laws as its manifesto in the just concluded GE…
and a call for burying Islamic state issue is nothing wrong for the sake of pakatan… or rather DAP…
and I don’t see Uncle LKS addressing PAS youth’s claim yet in the whole passage yet…
Last but not least, I don’t see PKR is not destined to be barking dogs in the Oppo if PAS and DAP are… in fact PKR’s chief also stand against the PAS youth claim to dig into Islamic state concept…
When you draw a line in the sand, you are either on one side or the other. This is what Kit has done with his comment above.
Uncle Lim
This time, the rakyat have made their choice to go against BN. So all DPP has to do is just flow along in the PR pack strongly base on social welfare econmic footing. If you feel some negative remarks have come out from whoever in PAS or PKR or even DAP that you feel will hurt this social welfare economic pack,then by all mean trash it out or bang table at your “internal pack meeting” ie closed door.
It is abosulutely imperative to project a good PR public image lest PR will be a lame sitting for BN to shoot down.
I tend to think that lots of Malays would have voted for BN still if they had known their votes would infact cause BN to lose 4 more states. So beware they may go back to vote BN if you all continue to project an unstable public image. Train & admonish all your people,stop saying or giving any divisive remarks or statements!!!! I have siad it again and again, let your press secretary make all anouncement. The rest just SHUT UP & start serving the people, there are tons & tons of work to do!!!!!
At this point in time the rakyat only want to hear News of corruption & cronism being rooted out, the poor & needy are being taken care of, more foreign investments are coming in etc etc.
All the best to PR!
Even if the idea of Islam state is rather feeble… such claim can pose a huge damage to DAP…
While we know… a Welfare state is well connecting the Pakatan’s component parties…
oops ‘sitting duck’
Dear Holy Godfather,
So going against the islamic state is wrong wrong wrong… good on you… :)
I remember well how Hadi branded u, YB Lim, and Karpal Singh “expired medicine. That was DAP get for working with PAS for the sake of of an united opposition in 1999 despite PAS declaring that it will set up an Islamic state.
I don’t expect leopards to change sports but I expect the new breed of PAS leaders, the so-called professionals (Nasaruddin, Husam, Sallahuddin, Kamaruddin, lo’lo ghazali etc), will have better sense than the “ulamaks” (hadi, hassan shukri etc).
Dont push it PAS!!!!
spots
Hold your horses guys, let’s not jump into conclusion but help YB Kit to keep the cool until the top leaders of the three parties DAP, PKR and PAS are able to sit down for another round of talks. I understand Anwar Ibrahim is way now. This Ahmad Yaakub fella is only a second liner supported by the PAS youths. He a pain alright, trying to stir things up!
We have cyber troopers here planning a field day?
If not please, this is sensitive times, the “union” is still in its infancy, do not use words that we’ll regret later. Let good sense prevail. Thanx.
YB Kit has articulated a principled stand, warning against the repeat of history where PAS says one thing before election to canvass Non Malay/Muslim Votes and says another after the election to advance its agenda.
This is a pluralistic country founded on the Federal Constitution that does not conceive an Islamic state.
So one either opposes or supports an Islamic state for application to the whole country, every state and every Malaysian whether Malay, Indians, Chinese, Iban or so on.
Godfather’s suggestion of a compromise behind the scenes e.g. agreeing to certain states like Kelantan, Perlis, Trengganu and Kedah being subject to syariah law (and the rest secular) is unprincipled, not transparent, sneaky and entirely based on expedience of getting rid of BN and installing Opposition coalition into power with regard to any principle at all whether it will in the process further and advance PAS’s agenda to the detriment of the whole nation, non malay/muslims and Malay/Muslims who are equally opposed to the installation of the Islamic state.
The only basis of such suggestion is to evict the BN and get the Opposition into power for whatever the cost to principles.
Readers think for yourself who is the extremist faction here.
expired medicine ? give them to the Pharmacists……….
YB Kit is not saying all this out of blues.
Immediately after 8th March election why did Kelantan Deputy Mentri Besar Datuk Ahmad Yaakub’s and press secretary to Pas president Roslan Shahir Mohd Shahir make the statements reaffirming “the values of the Islamic state were already incorporated in the Negara Berkebajikan” and that “in states where Pas is the dominant party, we will try to set up an Islamic state” which were contrary to PAS’s position before the election?
Don’t give me the bull that Kelantan Deputy Mentri said it contrary to his boss Nik Aziz Kelantan MB’s acquiesce or that press secretary of PAS president said it without authorisation of PAS President Hadi. The game plan was say different things by different people to confuse and obfuscate from the unwavering agenda.
Put it to a simple test then – ask Nik Aziz to tell his deputy that he is talking nonsense and ask Hadi to contradict his own press secretary – publicly if the intention were not to obfuscate.
Godfather’s remarks “you guys (PAS and DAP) are destined to be barking dogs in the Opposition, for you will never learn the lesson of the March 8 tsunami” are totally off mark. He is the one who has not learned any lesson!
The lesson of the March 8 political tsunami is to move towards the replacement of BN to bring about change to restore justice, freedom, democracy and god governance – exactly as what Kit said.
The lesson was not to evict BN and help advance the eventual installation of the Islamic state for either the whole country or as Godfather suggested partially or selectively in Kelantan, Perlis, Trengganu and Kedah! God forbid if that were the purpose, then I say there is greater nobility in remaining “barking dogs”. It is infinitely better than being a cringing dog willing to sell and mortgage its principles and soul for a share of power to be in government.
Kit
It seems there are still too many issues have to be resolved in a resolute and swiftly manner if the so call pakatan really aim to counter and take down BN effectively. But before you guys able to tackle external issues you all must able to reach a universal consensus with regard to issue pertain to freedom, justice and religion etc. I cant see the logic why pass youth still wanna provoke the sensitive issue of islam whereas religion issue is really the thorn in the flesh for pakatan and it really jeopardize the cooperation spirit and stamina for pakatan in long term and could mean dead or alive for such coalition to exist.
Judging from the speed of the naming of “pakatan rakyat” and the subsequent posting of asking us to give better name for the opposition coalition, we can sense that the pakatan “have been form” more on titular and propaganda basis rather than action force.
But the political reality is pakatan only have upper hand to compete with BN provided always DAP/PKR/PAS are truly in combine strength and force and under any circumstance if such coalition far short of one party would really detrimental to the continuos survival of the opposition political struggle.
Please discuss the religious matter in close door meeting as alerting the public that there are still ongoing open dispute within pakatan particularly DAP vs PAS on the religion matter truly bring absolute harm than good. Perhaps all top leaders of pakatan should put aside the religious issue for the time being and tackle more on vital facing the newly form coalition.
It’s no point forcing PAS to declare they are no longer emphasize on islamic state and even they said so it won’t guarantee that they will “revoke” such declaration in time to come. What DAP or PKR should do is to grow up their own support base and exert check and balance from time to time. But the most important point for PAS is they should not scare other non muslim/non Malay by openly touching the islam issue and therefore it’s vital for top leader of pakatan agree to issue stern warning and disciplinary action to any party member that touching religious issue irresponsibility in the way that cause harm and damage to the pakatan.
sorry – should be “Nik Aziz Kelantan MB’s acquiescence”
My fear is, if PAS is using its 2nd liners leaders as foot soldiers, that’s very sneaky. Meanwhile let’s wait for the top 3 leaders to thrash it out and spank the mischief.
and of course “good” governance not “god” governance :)
Kit.
I truly disappointed why on earth form the pakatan if there are still numerous issues haven’t being solved? Don’t you all agree and compromised and “assimiliate” wide variety of political ground prior to forming the coalition. Didn’t PAS is wise enough to refrain themselves and keep their mouth shut pertaining to islam state as they know it will not materialize at this point of time and what is DSAI point of view pertaining to PAS continuing stirring up the calm water? Or is it PAS leader having their own hidden agenda and give blessing to whatever their subordinate claim and provoke?
Jeffrey:
Just in case you forget, UMNO has taken a stand that Malaysia is an Islamic state. So if you guys want DAP to withdraw from Pakatan on grounds of “principle”, then you are allowing BN back into the fold in Perak and Selangor. If that is an acceptable outcome for Kit, then by all means stand on this principle and gracefully withdraw from the state excos in these states.
The idea of allowing Islamic law in the predominantly Malay states of Perlis, Kelantan, Trengganu and Kedah was just a suggestion of a compromise as these states probably have a Muslim population of 90 pct or more. Of course one has to work out how Federal law can co-exist under this scenario. How could this be a mortgage of DAP’s soul ??
If Pakatan Rakyat goes for islamic state and hudud laws, then I simply vote for Barisan National again loh……. and am sure many will follow…
DAP accusing PAS of its Islamisation agenda is simply the pot calling the kettle black. Just like I think PAS Youth is extremist, the DAP far right is also extremist and is turning DAP into a chauvinistic Chinese party.
And extremists belong in the Opposition, not in government.
Pakatan Rakyat itself is walking on a tight rope now, and do not be to happy or too confident.
The component parties have a lot to work out if they want to see political change for the better.
Otherwise, PR would just disintegrate in no time when the components start to squable among themselves.
PR has not even started to govern in the few states that they won. It is only in the process of taking the first towards the future which is still very uncertain to them all if they ever want to achieve quantum leap in the political scene here.
We want to see the PR move forward and shows to the voters they desrve to be voted in and that they may be also deserve the next terms, and the next, and the next…
Don’t just stop at where you are now when you all see a flint of light only. If the ‘Oposition’ called this result as “Tsunamai”, what is of vital importance is how ‘Oposition’ move forward from here.
DAP may have won, but now for the next 5 years, what do we want to see? Is it just a flash in the pan that DAP wants?
And then by 5 years’ time, DAP would withdraw itself back into the cocoon, and back to square one, as an Oposition party again?
We want to a strong alliance of the ‘Oposition” parties to counter the BN, and you must have large pool of capable members/people behind the party if you ever want to move forward.
DAP has to prioritise and strategise to move forward, and to be seen to be doing so in the right direction for the people and for the country.
Despite all the misgivings in the press, PR is doing well in the 3 states of Perak, Selangor and Penang, especially in Perak, where they are going permanent titles to the land in the new villages and the kampongs.
So back to you DAP!
We have come so far to deny BN’s 2/3 majority, and captured 4 states in the process, and if were to be suspicious of PAS’ motive now, then we probably have wasted a lot of work done. Not to mention the people’s wishes of throwing BN out in the next GE.
I have said many times, there is no way PAS able to form an Islamic state alone, they need 2/3 majority to do that. Despite that, there are still some stubborners coming up with a lot of wild imaginations to lower the morale of Pakatan Rakyat. Sigh… might as well hand Bolehland to BN in the next GE and continue to live with their racist divide-and-rule policies.
This is in response to what Godfather said.
Segment No One : //Just in case you forget, UMNO has taken a stand that Malaysia is an Islamic state//
Yes but UMNO is trying to be as Islamic as it could but does not take it that far (yet). An Islamic state is not the same as an Islamic theocratic state of PAS’s version. (It is not an appropriate venue here to expand on this but suffice to say one difference you will recall is that PAS wanted to enact hudud in Terengganu that fizzled out because Federal government and police did not support the move. PAS envisages Sharia to be supreme basic law of the land (as applied to all persons) so that when in conflict with any other law, Sharia will prevail, something which BN’s article 121(1)A bifurcating two mutually exclusive streams of law, Sharia and Civil, does not extend so far even considering the unfortunate conversion cases. Anyway the fact that UMNo does wrong to make a pitch towards greater islamisation of a plural society does not justify acquiescence with PAS’s agenda of pushing for its purer version so to speak of the Islamic “theocratic” state.
Enough of all these talking. How well PR governs the 5 states will prove PR’s point and capability. There is no need for rhetorics. That only works for BN. -_-
This is in response to what Godfather said.
· UMNO’s Islamic state does not stand in same position as the Islamic theocratic state of PAS’s version similar to Iran’s. (It is not an appropriate venue here to expand on all differences but it suffices to point out one difference ie when PAS wanted to enact hudud in Terengganu it was not supported by BN’s Federal government and police). Anyway the fact that UMNO does wrong to make a pitch towards greater islamisation of a plural society does not justify acquiescence with PAS’s agenda of pushing for its purer version so to speak of the Islamic “theocratic” state.
· “So if you guys want DAP to withdraw from Pakatan on grounds of “principle”, then you are allowing BN back into the fold in Perak and Selangor. If that is an acceptable outcome for Kit, then by all means stand on this principle and gracefully withdraw from the state excos in these states”. Why should DAP withdraw from in Perak and Selangor state governments? Who broke ground rules, why can’t PAS withdraw? Withdrawal by PAS will not affect DAP’s and PKR’s majorities to maintain state governments in Perak & Selangor.
· Selective application of Islamic state on Perlis, Kelantan, Trengganu and Kedah with Muslim majorities is not something DAP can agree to because its principles (soul) have always been grounded on a theocratic Islamic state in which sharia laws are based on sovereignty of the Almighty and not sovereignty of men voted to Parliament is a “no no” for any one and any state regardless whether its population is muslim majority or not.
· Opposing something like “Islamic state” that is not right for the country and contrary to the Federal Constitution is not extreme as you put it. I am surprised you do not say what Kelantan Deputy Mentri Besar Datuk Ahmad Yaakub and press secretary to Pas president Roslan Shahir Mohd Shahir said were extreme in light of the circumstances of Pakatan Rakyat being formed from the electoral victories of Opposition parties including PAS, which before the election, canvassed for non Muslim votes by downplaying “Islamic state” which is now being played up after the victories.
The logic is beyond me. If UMNO has taken the stand that Malaysia is an Islamic state, does this mean that DAP must also accept PAS’s Islamic state? I think most voters did not get rid of UMNO and BN in March 8 in order to be replaced by a PAS led PR which is behaving like UMNO. Sdr Kit, I think DAP’s position must be made clear and adhered to. The raison d’ etre of DAP is secular Malaysian Malaysia and by adhering to this principle, DAP is not infringing on the rights of anybody irrespective of races, religions and regions. You really need an extremist (or a cyber trooper from PAS) to accuse such a policy as chauvinistic. We must stand firm on our inclusive philosophy. It is exclusive philosophy of PAS that must give way.
I am saddened to hear that those who adhere to view similar as mine are branded extremists (which presumably constitute only 10%). I must repeat here that we even have a PKR leader and MP who was not able to discern the subtlety of PAS strategy by asking PKR and DAP to “work with” PAS just like the way MCA and MIC “work with” UMNO. May I remind you that MCA and MIC and Gerakan did not “work with” UMNO. They worked for or served UMNO. If DAP is not tenacious and focused upfront, the political processes will ensure that DAP is reduced to that of MCA, Gerakan or MIC in due course. We do not want to go this far to go back to square one again. Without secular Malaysian Malaysia, there is no reason for DAP to exist. As much as we want to see a better Malaysia and as much as we want to have better cooperation among PR parties, DAP shall never waver on its principles. It is best that from day one vigorous institutional checks and balance be set up to truncate extreme philosophies of PR parties (from whichever parties they may come from).
Devilmaster says “I have said many times, there is no way PAS able to form an Islamic state alone, they need 2/3 majority to do that”.
You have to consider three factors when PAS puts a motion in Parliament to change basic secular law into Sharia:
1. In next election PAS, if it could dominate the Opposition coalition, may get more seats that what it has now;
2. How sure are you that Anwar’s PKR will not throw their weight for the Islamic state?
3. In a face of a motion for making this country an Islamic state, how sure are you that UMNO will resist it and not lend its votes to support??? So far UMNO is on record trying to out compete PAS on matters of religion and certainly it will not do anything to be seen as acting against it. Therefore whatever PAS pushes for in this direction in the interest of the Faith, UMNO will either try to do better or at least not sabotage it.
Combined – no two third???
“Can there be no compromise behind the scenes e.g. agreeing to certain states like Kelantan, Perlis, Trengganu and Kedah being subject to syariah law ?” godfather
I am sorry, how short sight can this idea be? But I think Jeffrey has responded to that so I shall leave it as it is.
Sorry, should be …..short-sighted
YB Kit,
You have got more problems in your hand with your coalition partners, and I don’t just mean PAS.
Axcording to Malaysiakini’s report filed by Fauwaz Abdul Aziz | Apr 5, 08 4:22pm, “PKR vice-president Mohd Azmin Ali claimed today that the party has already persuaded “close to 30” Barisan Nasional members of Parliament to reject the leadership of its chairperson Abdullah Ahmad Badawi…. Their concern is (for) the country, the nation. They want someone who is strong and credible to lead the country,” Azmin told reporters after a thanksgiving gathering in Keramat, Kuala Lumpur. To them, even the non-Malays – the Chinese, Indians, Ibans and Kadazans – accept the fact that the leader has to be a Malay Muslim, but at the same time, that particular person has to be accepted by the other communities…In this context, they feel the best person is Anwar Ibrahim,” said Azmin in reference to PKR’s de facto leader.Reiterating that there was “no money or (other) transaction involved at all in these discussions”, Azmin said these BN MPs, including from Umno and ordinary members at the party’s grassroots level, were “generally dissatisfied with the leadership of Abdullah” .He also disclosed that ‘hopping’ to PKR is not the only option available for these disgruntled parliamentarians. Other than stepping down to make way for a by-election, they may also vote as BN MPs on a motion of no-confidence against Abdullah as BN chairperson, said Azmin.
Do you & DAP support PKR’s initiating by such means a fall of Abdullah Badawi’s government??? Is it good for the stability of the country – will it not incite BN’s leaders and vested interest to react in a manner inimical to the nacent democracy developing after 8th March election???
when UMNO Putra waive the keris and gave some controversial statements during their general meeting … UMNO and MCA said that it is just individual opinion … and the consequence is more and more controversial and discrimination statements thrown out by more ppl (out of control) … this is one of the cause why BN lost in 2008GE …
so for DAP, learn this lesson from MCA … when u should sound and when u should not … and make best use of ur experience and intelligence to overcome this issue …
Else, u will be the next MCA …
“….nascent democracy”
DAP can be viewed as a lot of things but it had always been true to its position of a secular state.
If I am a Muslim, I would certainly like an Islamic state. If I am a Christian, I would certainly like a Christian state. If I am a Taoist, I would certainly like a a Taoist state…. and so on.
As a Malaysian, I would go for a secular state based on justice, equality & meritocracy. Combining religion and politics is potent and open to abuses. It is too sensitive.
When you instigate a motion of no confidence against the existing government and succeeds, there is but only one result, the Agong will have to dissolve parliament to precipitate the 13th Malaysian General Election following just after the 12th on 8th March. You show that what you want???
“….You sure that what you want and that it is good for the country?…..”
My friends:
Kit is asking:
CAN WE LEARN FROM HISTORY?
The history about the break-up of the Barisan Alternative, the first serious attempt to form an alternative force that may stand a chance to govern Malaysia.
Now we have another chance and a great start at that! Stage one has been achieved: Deny 2/3 majority to the incumbent administration.
Whether stage two can become reality depends on leaders with good sense. It is alright for people here to talk of all kinds of scenarios whether real or imagined, but….
THE LEADERSHIP OF THE COALITION MUST NOT ONLY BE FIRM BUT ALSO CORRECT
MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL, THEY MUST BE WISE
Don’t worry about those crooks knocked over by the March 8 “politic al tsunami”— they have settled well into their new jobs. Just remember not to giggle but to say “hi” when you come across them
http://sloone.wordpress.com/2008/04/05/koh-tsu-koon-and-friends-have-new-jobs/#comments
both PAS and DAP need to loosen their extremism. honestly can DAP be said a truly multiculturalism party. while we harp to move away from race based political affiliation, reflect back wether we are not. DAP needs to start reforming or will be feared to become irrelevant in a decades time.
“The rest is history. Can we learn from the lessons of history?” Kit
“History teaches us that man learns nothing from history”
~ ~ HEGEL
“Those who fail to appreciate history are bound to repeat the same mistakes” – George Santayana.
Islamic state. No! No!. That’s why PAS is unable to make a breakthrough in Sabah & Sarawak.
One day after posting the thread of asking us to suggest names for Pakatan Rakyat, Kit has now started this thread to appease the anti-PAS faction within the DAP.
If we don’t speak up now, Kit will think that naysayers like Jeffrey and Limkaput are representative of mainstream DAP support.
When you think about PAS leaders and their pursuit of an Islamic state, what Nikita Khrushchev said in 1960 comes to mind.
“Politicians are the same all over: they promise to build a bridge even where there is no river.”
Jeffrey Says:
1. In next election PAS, if it could dominate the Opposition coalition, may get more seats that what it has now;
If PAS could dominate the Opposition and get more seats, it still needs to get the magical number 2/3 majority. Unless PAS is able to contest at least 148 Parliamentary seats and win 100% of it, then you are right. But this wont be happening. If PAS were to contest 148 seats, then what about DAP & PKR? Does it mean DAP & PKR will settle for the remaining 74 seats? Do you think PAS could easily penetrate Sabah & Sarawak? PAS could not even make inroad into Malacca & Johor. What is there to worry about?
2. How sure are you that Anwar’s PKR will not throw their weight for the Islamic state?
Since when did Anwar has interest in forming an Islamic state? Never had he mentioned it before. Will Anwar take this gamble and put his party at stake? Will his members revolt against him? Nobody knows. No point talking of PKR supporting PAS’ ideology here.
3. In a face of a motion for making this country an Islamic state, how sure are you that UMNO will resist it and not lend its votes to support??? So far UMNO is on record trying to out compete PAS on matters of religion and certainly it will not do anything to be seen as acting against it. Therefore whatever PAS pushes for in this direction in the interest of the Faith, UMNO will either try to do better or at least not sabotage it.
UMNO has been trying to out-Islam PAS for so many years. Will UMNO succumb to PAS’ brand of Islam? It is a very,very remote chance. If UMNO does that, it will be the end of UMNO. UMNO hate PAS more than they hate DAP. I can tell you UMNO will prefer to wait another 5 years to regain power rather than submitting to PAS. I will agree with you UMNO will try to do better than PAS in religious matters but defintely they won’t join hands with PAS. Party ideologies different.
Now the choice is like this:-
a) continue with BN rule
b) give Pakatan Rakyat a chance (no matter what happens inside)
Limkaput:
What’s so short-sighted about the idea of letting a state that is 95 pct Muslim impose syariah law ? The 5 pct can override the 95 pct ? Perhaps you think that you are smarter than the 95 pct and therefore can impose your headmasterly ways on the 95 pct ?
There really is very little chance that PAS can single handedly impose Syariah law or make States like Penang, Selangor and Perak into Islamic states no matter how much they zealous they are. Imagine the public furore and uproar should PAS suddenly find it possible to close all entertainment joints, mandate all women to cover their head or forbid them to go to school and remain as sex object for the men to satisfy they lust in these places where a large proportion of the populations are Chinese and Indians and others of other religion. Give them more credit for their intelligence. This is not going to happen and will not happen no matter what they say. Therefore I think it is more important now to start governing than to find possible loop holes in idealogies of the component parties. It is more relevant now with more power in hands of Pakatan to see how the states under them can start catching up with the rest of the world. We are loosing precious time. We MUST stem the very serious brain drain. We cannot allow all the bright sparks in the country every year to be chased away to other countries to seek their fortune. Please START working, reverse the drain and MAKE the change. It is not so long till the next election and if Pakatan cannot deliver it will be booted out no matter whether it advocate Islamisation or otherwise.
Devilmaster:
These guys would rather let BN rule (and steal) than to cooperate with PAS. Their “what if” scenarios are so pathetic but they serve to reinforce the insecurity within the DAP. It is sad that after the rakyat gave them a chance to see what they can do as the ruling faction, they (almost) instantly spurn the chance and would rather be the barking dogs of the Opposition of old.
The stark reality is that in twenty years from now, the Muslim majority will increase from the current 60 pct to around 75 pct based on current demographics. Rather than engage our fellow Malaysians and find a working relationship with PAS so that we can govern wisely, some prefer to remain as the champions of Chinese chauvinism.
ChinNa,
Don’t presume that everybody would like put their religious systems to govern the country.
I’m Christian, but never in my right mind would I want a Christian government.
History have proven that religious state are unstable. That is the reason why it was separated from the political system and is in the domain of the monarchy.
Religion deals with dogmas, you can do this, you can’t do this.
But real life, especially in a multi-ethnic, multi-religion country like ours, calls for flexibility and pragmatism. Something the ulamas, priests, cardinals, bishops cannot do, unfortunately.
Thus a SECULAR state is the best solution.
Frankly, even at moment, Malaysia being a Secular state, with Islam as official religion, we are still seeing high-handed action from folks like IKIM, wanting to impose Syariah Law on non-muslims.
DAP is our only hope to check against this tide of religion permeating into our government.
We vote DAP-PAS-PKR, not to set up a Religious State, but a Secular state that is fair to all, transparent in its governance, and accountable to the Rakyat. Not some religious authority somewhere who take it upon themselves that they have the authority from God to dish out punishment and judgement as they deem fit.
Don’t drag us back to the dark ages.
Godfather,
Indeed, DAP need to draw a line in the sand.
Malaysia is a SECULAR state, with Islam as the official religon, as stated in our constitution and upheld by Supreme Court judgement.
Please respect this Constitution drawn up by our founding fathers.
Jeffrey said, “Withdrawal by PAS will not affect DAP’s and PKR’s majorities to maintain state governments in Perak & Selangor.”
Are u joking? Need Prozac izit?
This is one fact that i wanted to highlight!
Of course in 12th GE, malay muslims voted DAP and nonmuslims voted PAS. But this is mainly due to the anti-BN factor and protest vote.
After 12th GE, PAS and PKR had successfully reached on communities crossing the racial and religious lines. DAP for the meanwhile is lagging behind, maintaining its Chinese chauvinist image and putting a scare towards muslims on its strict secular view with hawkish anti-Islamic state stance.
Proof? One MIC branch in Taiping got disbanded and whole 110 members entered PAS, remember? The question is WHY NOT they enter DAP or PKR which according to some ppl over here stands on secular principle? the fact that PAS’s Supporter Club until now received numerous new entry applications, do some ppl wana turn blind to THIS?
If it is really that PAS’s current image do scare nonmuslims in this nation, why are these happening? The fact that nonmuslims in this nation had started to accept PAS’s moderate Islamist identity had put DAP into jealousy. PAS had successfully reached out toward nonmuslims but DAP TOTALLY failed to reach on muslims especially among malays.
So to those ppl who turned blind on what the ppl had voiced out in the last GE, i am at my utmost happiness if uguys continue to do so and im looking forward for the same old lame Chinese chauvinist DAP, a secular and hawkish anti-Islamic state stone-headed political party….
To my muslims friends, remember what had happened in Turkey, Egypt, Iraq etc as secular state seemingly justice on paper is used as a tool to scrap away your birth rights to practice what u believe.
I had lost hope to this current DAP leadership and im calling for YB Lim and YB Karpal Singh to step down to allow a more progressive, tolerant new leadership to take over DAP. Period!
petestop,
rest assured. Malaysia is a secular state. Genting Highlands is our best proof.
petestop:
I don’t have a problem with DAP drawing a line in the sand, but why didn’t they draw the line before the elections so that the voters can have an informed choice ? You think DAP would have the number of seats that they have without Malay support ?
If you want to draw a line in the sand, and “learn from history”, then you should not be a hypocrite and accept PAS supporters’ votes and then start disparaging PAS once you are voted in.
Pakatan Rakyat is acting like an opposition. Let show us your capabilities to adminster the state. No point argue. Mandate had been given. People are not fool. Fool once… Smarter next time. Pakatan rakyat is not an better alternative.
Barisan Nasional need to reform, rebuilt and restrategy. Perak and Penang will change. Barisan Nasional need to understand people aspiration. Barisan Nasional will return. God bless…..Barisan Nasional.
BN doesn’t need to do anything. Just sit back and watch Pakatan Rakyat implode in the coming weeks or months.
Said former MCA secretary-general Ting Chew Peh: ‘Upon hearing the good news, my townsmen, relatives and friends applauded till their hands hurt.’
‘One who wins the hearts of the people wins the world. Pakatan Rakyat has brought the house down this time,’
http://www.malaysia-today.net/2008/content/view/5533/84/
I wonder the last collapse of BA. Is it PAS who was kicked out, or DAP-PKR-PRM who left or izit ONLI DAP going out?
Whose not tolerant here?
I think if trying to be so damn fascist and force everybody to follow DAP-only rules, why bother to form alliance with others in the first place.
Seeing PAS’s Supporter Club enlarging must had given the saliva-drooling hawkish anti-Islamic state extremist in DAP, a slap in the face.
Godfather says: “The stark reality is that in twenty years from now, the Muslim majority will increase from the current 60 pct to around 75 pct based on current demographics. Rather than engage our fellow Malaysians and find a working relationship with PAS so that we can govern wisely, some prefer to remain as the champions of Chinese chauvinism.”
Chinese chauvinism? What Chinese chauvinism? We have never asked for a Chinese Taoist Malaysia, or a Chinese Christian Malaysia. What we are asking for is secular multiracial and multi-religious Malaysia. It is an inclusive ideal where every citizen irrespective of race, religion, and region will someday be treated equally and fairly in this land of ours. If other races or religious groups can’t see eye to eye with DAP’s Malaysian First, then it is they who are racists or religious bigots. It is they who want to impose their way of life and values on others.
Godfather says: “What’s so short-sighted about the idea of letting a state that is 95 pct Muslim impose syariah law ? The 5 pct can override the 95 pct ? Perhaps you think that you are smarter than the 95 pct and therefore can impose your headmasterly ways on the 95 pct ?”
It is short-sighted to allow states with Muslim majority to impose syariah law because it will never stop there. It does not matter how many percent the Muslim population will be in the future. We can’t simply assume that Malay Muslims are supportive of syariah law. I believe it is the duty of DAP and all right minded Malaysians to fight for a dynamic, cosmopolitan and progressive Malaysia for all Malaysians, male and female, Muslims and non-Muslims.
Godfather,
No, I did not say I am smarter than anybody, do you? The reality is we don’t know what the 95% want, do you? I think what Sdr Lim want to hear is rationale and different points of views. Even if your view is the majority view, that may be temporarily driven by euphoria and fanaticism. Nazism also gained power through popular support initially.
I don’t have a problem with a “Malaysian First” principle, but what if the Muslims in a predominantly Muslim state like Perlis and Trengganu prefer a way of life based on syariah law ? Should the absolute minority prevent this ? This is the chauvinism I am referring to.
“In reality, we don’t know what the 95 pct want…” Limkamput
That’s what elections are for. In Trengganu, it was obvious that the voters don’t want the PAS-style administration and easily voted for the status quo with BN. Every 4 – 5 years, voters have the chance to choose the government they want, and the minority would have to accept the wishes of the majority.
Who is drawing the line in the sand after election, PAS or DAP in the light of recent statements made by PAS leaders?
I didnt see the realistic of pursuing secular state here in malaysia.
Im seeing more of THEORY ONLY aspect of some ppl trying to say that its only Secular state that will work best. Realistically secular had been proven by history that its only looks good on paper, on the other hand intimidate, scraping away everybodies’ rights on religious freedom.
What is the guarantee that a secular Malaysia wont turn into states like Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, US, France, Singapore? 55% muslim mjority Mlaysia rejected secular state, say NO TO SECULAR!
For now, i agree “It is they who want to impose their way of life and values on others.”- if Kelantanese ppl voted PAS Islamic state aim since 1990, whyla got certain ppl asking PAS to officially declare that it no longer pursue for an Islamic state? Its a clear choice for Kelantan ppl, their voice is heard and at the end somebody blindly ignore it? Are they going to get what they voted for, and what is the rights of this SOME PPL to deny it? I see fascism here…
PAS couldn’t make inroads in predominantly Muslim Perlis and Trengganu, and we are making noises about “creeping” Islamisation. We are hearing the doom and gloom noises of “PAS will never stop there” and therefore there is no compromise.
Can someone please telll UMNO that Tun M wasn’t a cause of the poltical tsunami? Dr M is just one of the millions who were fed-up, so his share of the trophy is only one-in-a million; no more.
All the UMNO bandits should just go to some faraway field and main jauh-jauh. Let the country recuperate from their abuses and excesses.
Ismail Sabri, Bera MP, asked Tun M that if he still loves UMNO, to stop attacking UMNO and Pak LAh. Ismail Sabri shoud know that, as always, it is not thatTun M loves UMNO less, it has always been that Tun M loves HIMSELF more!
Tun M was a ‘self-less’ PM. Without (him)SELF, anyone would be less-than-a-PM or no one is good enough to be PM.
It seems that not everybody well understand what is an Islamic state is all about… even muslims themself… given by not much opportunity to explain further no wonder the most of malaysian oppose the system.
If I’m a Leader like LKS, I would personally study about it before make a bare judgment on it… most of the non-muslims that I know afraid of it because they have no knowledge about it and what in their head only HUDUD… hah, a virus from the past media.. again I would like to emphasize that it’s not only about HUDUD… even if the HUDUD materalize, most of the BN cabinet may out form the parlimen with their other hand chopped off…
I urge to non-muslim study and understand it before make any bare judgement
Im seeing fascism here…
This is what i meant earlier, secular only looks good on paper, out paper wise very very bad…
Kelantan ppl clearly voted for an Islamic state since 1990 and this secularist chap gonna say NO to it? Is he even a Kelantanese?
Secular really really bad…say NO TO SECULAR..
“What if PAS colludes with UMNO ?” “What if UMNO tries to out-Islamise PAS ?” “What if…..”
The only certain things in life are death and taxes.
To be clear, I am not a PAS supporter, and I don’t approve of the comments of PAS Youth. I only seek cooperation and understanding from all parties so that the opportunity given by the voters on March 8 is not wasted. If all parties start drawing their lines in the sand, then it is game over. The BN thieves that we fought so hard to dislodge will just move back in.
Sdr Lim, in the light of the postings above, I think you have to seriously contemplate the full ramification of what DAP is doing now. I think I can’t freely express what I want to say here because I don’t know the legal implication of such expression.
let me repeat:
limkamput Says:
Today at 22: 17.10 (19 minutes ago)
Who is drawing the line in the sand after election, PAS or DAP in the light of recent statements made by PAS leaders?
Godfather says: “To be clear, I am not a PAS supporter, and I don’t approve of the comments of PAS Youth.”
Then what precisely is your problem.
First, deny muslims rights for an Islamic state, thats ok
Second, deny muslims rights for Hudud Laws, still ok
Third, deny muslims rights to Sharia Laws, that scared me abit
Fourth, ban on muslims wearing tudung in government places, France?
Fifth, ban on muslims wearing tudung in public, Turkey?
Sixth, jails all islamist opposition as they r terrorist, Egypt?
Seventh, kills and take away muslims lands, Palestine?
Secular only looks good on paper, really really bad outpaper!
Say No to Secular…
In case you still can’t understand, my problem with Kit is two-fold:
1. Members of alliances or coalitions should not draw lines in the sand.
2. Members of alliances and coalitions should solve their problems behind closed doors.
There is no such thing as “either you are with me or against me” in politics and Kit should know that.
Co-operation means co-operation. You say things and you do things that are agreed by the three parties in PR. That is what I understand by the term co-operation. Now, did the recent statements by PAS leaders sound like a co-operation to you? Did the three parties earlier agree to those statements?
Co-operation means co-operation: you say things and you do things that are agreed by the three parties in PR. That is what I understand by the term co-operation. Now, did the recent statements by PAS leaders sound like a co-operation to you? Did the three parties earlier agree to those statements?
So two wrongs make a right ?
The problem is…
The call for PAS to forgo its aim for Islamic state, should DAP reciprocate by announcing its forgo the secular state?
55% Muslims cannot accept a strict secular state.
45% Nonmuslims cannot accept an Islamic state.
So why bother shouting on principles that divides us?
See my comments above, im drawing lines on sands just like uguys did. Can easily predict where this is going? Its Nowhere. Period!
when you say “not for Islamic State” actually you have drawn a line for a 60% and a 40%. well done…
syncbasher83, I don’t think you fully understand what are being discussed here. I think you don’t even understand what secularism is. You have a concocted view of secularism.
If I understand you correctly, godfather, what did Sdr Lim do which to your is wrong?
limkamput,
of course ur view that i dont understand. But for me, ordinary citizen just think that ur virtuous theories of secularism only looks good on papers. There are better secularist than u in the nations id listed above. The question is, will your Looked-good on paper secular ideology does not turn our nation into one of above?
I dont think so. The same scare among nonmuslims against Islamic state shared by their muslims friends against Secular! I think u have been swayed away too much on your secular ideology that u forget to see the real picture, the real situation here man!
ok, syncbasher83, you name me one islamic state that is an example to all.
Many DAP voters voted for PAS in on 8th March 2008 because PAS adopted (before the election) the Opposition Manifesto excluding the establishment of an Islamic theocratic state. After securing non Malay/Muslims’ votes to better its performance in the elections based on such a representation, is it right for PAS to now, after the election, reaffirm and revive the Islamic State agenda??? I cannot understand people here who are so pathetic as to have to make excuses for PAS’s conduct, in condonation of such a misrepresentation and deceptive behaviour and acceptance of conduct by a party that shifts goal posts to further its own agenda in flagrant disregard of others’ position and interest.
limkamput.
your approach toward a problem between two different parties is deficient! u r taking ur narrowed-windowed self-centered, self-only right approach which is totally wrong…
u put secular in the middle, pas with Islamic state on the right, dap on the left. and then u started judging, its deficient, self centered!
try putting this way, pas with islamic state on the right, dap with secular state on the left, u r free mind in the middle….then start judging lah, this way better lah. Dont in the first place before even judging u have ur mind set to take side…period!
Members of alliances and coalitions should solve their problems behind closed doors – sounds like UMNO telling MCA and Gerakan how to solve problems. :)
limkamput,
may i say Kelantan?
now ur turn, name me any secular-championed state that is example for all?
“March 8 “politic al tsunami” is for change to restore justice, freedom, democracy and good governance and not for Islamic state or hudud laws”
The same you can say for Rakyat in Kedah and Kelantan. PAS retained Kelantan and won in Kedah not because the Rakyat there want Islamic State, simply because PAS has an electoral pact with PKR which ensure its survival and subsequently its revival.
Uncle Kit, don’t you think it is high time PKR draw a line in the sand?
The problem is PKR not PAS, if you know what I mean?
“… I only seek cooperation and understanding from all parties so that the opportunity given by the voters on March 8 is not wasted…” – Godfather.
The cooperation was supposedly based on Barisan Rakyat’s Election Manifesto of 2008 excluding the Islamic State. The cooperation was not based on deception, changing the position, after securing electoral victory to reaffirm the establishment of Islamic state which one had represented in the Manifesto to have excluded. Who is not cooperating here? Why do you blame Kit and not PAS???
How do you know that I do not blame PAS ? I said that two wrongs don’t make a right.
Did the Election Manifesto EXPLICITLY exclude the Islamic state agenda, or was it merely silent on this issue ?
When a political party takes a position – for the Islamic state or Malaysian Malaysia or secular state – one takes it for the whole country and not argue that Islamic state is ok for Kedah and Kelantan, not OK for Perak or Selangor, may be Ok for Terengganu but not so for Sarwak and Sabah etc – except an Opportunistic political party of course!
Syncbasher83,
Sorry, I don’t understand you. First, I think you have to learn to write in full. This blog is not sms or youngsters chatting in the chat room. Second, you still have not answered my simple question: name a Islamic state which can be an example for others – in terms civil liberty, economic freedom, rule of law, democracy, prudent economic management etc. I am still waiting. Jangan cakap banyak. Baca lah sikit posting orang lain.
I said that members of a political coalition should not draw lines in the sand. Should I also have said that members of a coalition should behave honourably ?
godfather,
letme answer, it was merely silent on the Islamic state issue…
and the rakyat had given PAS huge mandate…
so whats wrong with DAP to force PAS to officially denounce its Islamic state aim?
im sure if PAS official declare it denounce Islamic state aim before the election, it wouldnt win big in kelantan and take big on Kedah.
hello, i want a country lah, not a state in Malaysia. You want Malaysia to be an islamic state right?
you see, at least i can think like Jeffrey. I responded to you (syncbasher) before i read his posting.
im reading…
and my answer is still kelantan, in term of all those things u mentioned above!
wanna know the reason why?
the basic Islamic state idea brought by PAS is NEVER FORCE any of the Islamic state principle into full force. It should be done accordingly and in line with rakyat’s acceptence to it. Understand?
now show me any secular-championed state that is example for all?
Sir Lim Kit Siang,
I dunno why you are so afraid about Islamic State and Hudud. For your information, may be you already know, that Islamic State is just like what you think about juctice, peace, no-corruption, welfare, no-crime, and so on (all of this incorporated in Islamic State term). And, it may be better than what in your mind.
Sir,
Dont be prejudice and too fanatic with your chauvinist ideology, and cannot tolerate with other. Hudud or syaria laws, is only for Muslims, not for us non-Muslims. We will given the choices, whether we want hudud or current civil law. Hudud is not compulsory to us. That is only the way if you are going to make juctice and peace in this beloved country.
Sir,
look up for Malaysia, multiracial and multi-religional country. Dont act as Malaysia is only your own land. We should look foward. You better study-and-study the Islamic State concept, and hudud, from original source, and trusted source. I have learned it by study, and found that this is the best way to make harmonic, peace and justice country.
Sir,
Dont be afraid. PAS will not cut your hand, even you rob peoples properties, but civil law will. You are non-muslim, not compulsory to be judge by hudud. And also, you no need to afraid because you are not going to be a robber. That a simple logic. Only a robber will fear of hudud. Only a killer will fear of hudud. You and Karpal Sing are not a robber, not a killer, so why both of you so afraid then?
Sir, please…
please dont look very obstinacy. I see PAS leaders can tolerate with you and DAP. You also can, sir! I know that there were a tolerance concept used by PAS according to their religion – tolerance to non-Muslim. islam teaches them how to communicate with non-Muslim. So they have guideline to do it. Dont make this PAkatan rakyat breakdown like BA. Please, we dont want BN return to lead us!
“Did the Election Manifesto EXPLICITLY exclude the Islamic state agenda, or was it merely silent on this issue ?” – Godfather.
On an important and controversial issue that has divided DAP & PAS, a Manifesto (upon which their collaboration was forged) has to explicitly state the Islamic state agenda if that was on the cards. If it was not stated, then all reasonable interpretation is that it is excluded.
To deliberately keep silent to open the way for its subsequent reassertion is a deceptive and unprincipled move, indefensible on any score. What transparency are you talking about that you are fighting against BN on when this simple rule of transparency canot be observed?
If it were argued for so long as the Manifesto did not mention explicitly exclusion of Islamic state, it opens the way for its subsequent inclusion, then it will open the way for anything else that is not mentioned Manifesto to be now reasserted, whether you’re talking of a 100% pure secular state or even a communist state!
Uncle Lim,
To save you all the troubles of sleepless night of the never-ending debate of Islamic state, you should do this – QUIT PAKATAN RAKYAT.
End of story. End of debate. DAP is better off going solo.
“Can we learn from the lessons of history?” – Kit
The lesson will tell us that history will repeat itself.
It’s still not too late to quit now.
Quit now, or history of DAP dismal showing in 1999 GE will repeat itself.
“On an important and controversial issue that has divided DAP & PAS, a Manifesto (upon which their collaboration was forged) has to explicitly state the Islamic state agenda if that was on the cards. If it was not stated, then all reasonable interpretation is that it is excluded.” Jeffrey
You and I may interpret it that way, but others could say that it was left open because there was no consensus. In politics, you can agree to disagree.
“How do you know that I do not blame PAS ? I said that two wrongs don’t make a right” – Godfather.
What are you talking about? If PAS is wrong in reneging on the Manifesto forming the basis of coperation between DAP and PAS agreed before the election, then Kit has everyright to draw the line, ask PAS to state its position and take it to task.
This is not a situation “that two wrongs don’t make a right”. This is a situation where one is right and the other is wrong and the question is who!
You can’t in such a situation blame PAS – and also blame Kit, which is just about as opportunistic as saying I can have Malaysian Malaysia and also the Islamic state.
hmmm…syncbasher83, limkamput is asking you to provide him a country(negara), not a state(negeri). The best i can help you is Turkey
urm, before DAP quiting PR, can at least do party election. if more hawkish YB Lim and YB Karpal stay leading the party, then honorably quit. Im seeing more progressive, tolerant new leadership in DAP. Can ask Guan Eng ar…
Haiya this tarik tali identity of DAP never end lah…
yesterday said wana send 3 names for perak mb, then lets sultan decide. today, boycott swearing in coz disagree with sultan…
yesterday enter BA, today out of BA
yesterday enter PR, today out of PR
why not in the first place send only 1 name? period!
devilmaster suggested Turkey(at present)
but im still sticking to my answer Kelantan.
However, limkamput can accept both.
now limkamput, wheres my answer? or u could not provide one?
I applaud Kit Siang for raising matters relating to PAS’s idelogical intent. It is pertinent seek a solid foundation to build an alliance of PKR, DAP and PAS based on mutual trust and understanding – not only – of each component parties’ idelogical stance but the pragmatism that needs to applied to garner sustained support to mediate the social and economic well being of a pularal society. It is important that at this early stage of the Alliance to iterate (better still to attempt a draft document of ‘Statement of Common Intent ‘) with regards the governace of the Nation. The majority of Electorate has shown willing to embrace the Pakatan Rayat and I hope that they in turn will not dissapoint us.
Dear Uncle Lim
I have hard time explaining to my elder after I convince them to vote for PAS in GE12.
http://shiokguy.blogspot.com/2008/04/pas-another-umno-in-making.html
The above is my take of message to PAS.
Regards
Shiok Guy
I don’t balme Kit on the grounds of sticking to principle. I blame him for the manner in which this so-called dispute has been brought up – some 12 hours after Kit wrote a thread asking for alternative suggestions on names for Pakatan Rakyat.
Read my comments right at the top of this thread. I asked Kit several questions, one of which was whether this could be better resolved behind closed doors.
//You and I may interpret it that way, but others could say that it was left open because there was no consensus. In politics, you can agree to disagree// – Godfather.
The question is whether you and I – and all of us – engaged in a discussion or a debate over an important issue want to interpret reasonably or unreasonably.
What others could say that it was left open because there was no consensus is their business and they are entitled to their opinion.
What we should be concerned is what is right and wrong and whether we ourselves are reasonable in our interpretation and approach in what we say.
First, deny muslims rights for an Islamic state, thats ok
Second, deny muslims rights for Hudud Laws, still ok
Third, deny muslims rights to Sharia Laws, that scared me abit
Fourth, ban on muslims wearing tudung in government places, France?
Fifth, ban on muslims wearing tudung in public, Turkey?
Sixth, jails all islamist opposition as they r terrorist, Egypt?
Seventh, kills and take away muslims lands, Palestine?
Secular only looks good on paper, really really bad outpaper!
Say No to Secular…
Jeffrey:
Many voters know for a fact that PAS would NEVER denounce its Islamic agenda, but we also know that there is sufficient check and balance from various parties, including UMNO, that an Islamic state (in the federal sense) is highly unlikely. That is why the concept of an Islamic Malaysia was never explicitly debunked in the election manifesto. And that is why those who keep calling for PAS to denounce its Islamic agenda has to be smoking dope.
Sorry, watching soccer lah.
Turkey? If Turkey has no IMF help, long time it has gone kaput. Ok, tell me what is good about
What is the point of me providing you a successful secular state when you have made up your mind there is none. Katak di bawah tumpurung lah your world view. I don’t think i can ever convince you. Suffice for me to say, almost all developed countries are secular states.
sorry, …..Ok, tell me what is good about Turkey?
I dispute “check and balance from various parties”. If at all the check and balance must be within the Opposition. There is why DAP cannot be cowered as not to take PAS publicly to task over Kelantan Deputy MB’s and press secretary to PAS President’s statements (as you suggested). Within the Opposition what check and balance has Anwar/PKR offered on this issue? He has kept silent. He is more interested in 30 BN MPs helping him to have a vote of no confidence on Badawi & his cabinet. How could you include UMNO as check and balance against an Islamic state (in the federal sense) when (1) it has been harboring pretensions of out-islamising PAS (2) facing an imminent vote of no confidence (if what PKR vice-president Mohd Azmin Ali said were to be believed) and (3) if some of them are willing to collaborate with Opposition to vote against their own president and even cross over, do you mean they have any principles to oppose the Islamic state?? A lot of MPs will swing to whoever the victor. I have not suspected you actually thought well of them that they had spine to oppose on principle the Islamic state if pushed by Pas leading the Coalition.
WHAT IS ISLAM?
The March 8, 2008 political Tsunami has bring us to a new reality of a two party system and the incumbent administration is trying very hard to throw a spanner into the hub that is propelling us towards this new reality called “A NEW MALAYSIA” by playing up speeches made by radical elements in each of the coalition partners and the gullible are lapping it up with glee….
This is indeed disturbing. :(
I believe that Kit as an experienced and battle hardened veteran will be able to help steer the coalition in the right direction. It would not be a bad idea for DAP to take the initiative to form a committee tasked with learning about WHAT IS ISLAM in order to be able to find a practical way in which even PAS and DAP can find common grounds to work together.
With a better understanding of Islam, as leaders of the people the coalition should be in the position to address and allays any mis-guided fears of the people.
I have scoured the internet and found something on Islam which I would like to share with my friends:
Islam of the Prophets versus the ‘Islam’ of the theologians.
What are the major differences between the two?
1) Firstly the first and true Islam is first and foremost inclusive, whereas the second practices exclusivity.
2) Secondly, the first and true Islam accepts and practices toleration of other religions, whereas the second does not.
3) Thirdly, the first and true Islam accords perfect and absolute freedom of belief, whereas the second does not.
4) Fourthly, the first and true Islam proclaims itself the Religion of Truth (Quran 48:28; 9:33; 41:53 & 61:9) and the Religion of God (Quran 110:2), which will naturally prevail over all false religions in the future. This will come about, not through force, but through the inevitable but natural triumph of truth over falsehood.
5) Fifthly, the first and true Islam propagates a world legal system based on justice and compassion, whereas the second’s legal system, the so-called Shariah is arbitrarily based on many mistaken perceptions by traditional legal practitioners, as witness the so-called fixed Hudud laws.
6) Sixthly, the first and true Islam places human welfare as the highest priority on par with obedience to God, as witness God’s elevation of the human being to a status of His vicegerent in the Cosmos. Whereas the ‘Islam’ of the theologians almost crashes the human being beneath the weight of Divine Omnipotence, of course, under their self-proclaimed tutelage.
7) Seventhly, the first and true Islam has no priesthood, whereas the second has, giving themselves the false title of ‘Guardians of the Faith.’ In the first and true Islam, the individual approaches God directly without any intermediary, for the very idea of intermediary automatically nullifies monotheism.
8) Eightly, the first and true Islam teaches and propagates democratic governance as opposed to a theocracy propagated by the second ‘Islam,’ as witness Iran under the mullah. Moreover, it teaches and propagates a humanistic and moral governance. It also advocates a just and fair economic and financial system, free from usury.
9) Ninethly, the first and true Islam allows pluralism in religion, culture, politics and law, as it believes firmly in the triumph of truth, justice and compassion in the end, as this is actually the Grand Divine Plan for mankind.
10) Tenthly, the first and true Islam, seeks, works towards and struggles for a just world, where as the second ‘Islam’ is a hotchpotch of confusion, leading mankind nowhere.
A LEADER OF WISDOM WILL SEEK TO UNDERSTAND RATHER THAN CONTEND
Good luck KIT, I sincerely hope you will NOT ALLOW history to repeat itself. GO AND MAKE IT HAPPEN!
Can someone please tell UMNO that Tun M wasn’t the cause of the political tsunami? ENDANGERED HORNBILL
I just called Mahathir. He told me the only tsunami he knew had struck Aceh, Indonesia and not UMNO. I then called Badawi. He told me he didn’t know what struck UMNO since he was asleep.
Sorry… I should cite the source of my information on Islam:
http://www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/SP/2006/aug/page1.html
errr should ask devilmaster bout that coz hes da one suggesting it!
remember im sticking my answer to Kelantan…
of what i know bout Turkey. recently new more progressive AK party took over from those secularist (ur ideologimate). most leaders of this AK Party has islamists roots, of course the main aim is to clean up the corrupted government but their islamist agenda was not forced onto the ppl…
its not like today declare Islamic state, tomorrow gotta chop everybodies hand, head etc…
If ur saying that my view on secular is like Katak di bawah tempurung, i have my right oso to say that u r like Lembu dicucuk hidungnya…hahaha
simply say islamic state like iran lah…look at Kelantan lah, no need to go far. dont turn blind on kelantan. Its Pas’s islamic state ur condemning, so say lah if there any nonmuslim being mistreated there, no need to talk about iran, its malaysia here…
be considerate lah, realistic. as far as i know, dap never rule any negri before. gona withraw from PR somemore, no more CM Guan Eng…
gosh….he himself saying Pas’s Islamic state gona turn malaysia into iran, then blaming me saying dap’s secular gona turn malaysia into old secular turkey! period!
Under usual circumstances, keeping silence on issue X in a party P’s election Manifesto does indeed leave leeway to sneak X back into P’s policy after the election. Leaders of P can even claim that they have maintained ‘technical honesty’ since pushing for X now does not contradict its silence on X in its manifesto.
But note that this is true only ‘under usual circumstances’, in which the silence on X in P’s manifesto has not been cited by P’s leaders to assure those worried about X that the silence on X in P’s current election manifesto shows that X is no longer an issue or that P will not pursue X.
When P’s leaders have cited the silence on X in P’s current manifesto to assure people that P will not pursue X, sneaking X back into P’s policy or declared intention after election does not leave room for any ‘technical honesty’ mentioned above.
In any case, it seems to me that, whether ‘technical honesty’ can be maintained or not, PAS has been consistently using Taqiyya – deceptive strategies.
this one another Islam scholar coming…
really excellent in using islamic terms but unluckily really dunno that fits in his context or not…
simply use blindly…
Letme repeat this again…
First, deny muslims rights for an Islamic state, thats ok
Second, deny muslims rights for Hudud Laws, still ok
Third, deny muslims rights to Sharia Laws, that scared me abit
Fourth, ban on muslims wearing tudung in government places, France?
Fifth, ban on muslims wearing tudung in public, Turkey?
Sixth, jails all islamist opposition as they r terrorist, Egypt?
Seventh, kills and take away muslims lands, Palestine?
Secular only looks good on paper, really really bad outpaper!
Say No to Secular…
Its okay said im like Katak Di Bawah Tempurung, at least im being realistic and talking my hal ehwal under tempurung according to under the tempurung reality. Not like some other ppl, Mcm lembu dicucuk teloqnya according to Kg Attap ppl, dont blame me, blame the Kg Attap ppl
One who makes a wild accusation about the use of a certain term in an inappropriate context has the moral obligation to explain which use of which term in which context is illegitimate or inappropriate.
Sorry, watching soccer lah..tell me what is good about Turkey?
out of topic here, limkamput. But since you are a football fan,i shall answer you in footballing term :P
Turkey got 3rd in World Cup 2002, whereas, Bolehland could not even make it to the final round of qualifying in Asia zone. Galatasaray from Turkey won the UEFA Cup in 2000, beating Arsenal of England. This is a major achievement for a club from Turkey.
And the most important thing is Turkey football team could easily pwn Bolehland football team anytime :)
he arque that kelantan is a state and not a country but never arque that it is a good example, right? or is he? never give example of a good scholar state or country but giving excuses. so far im on syncbasher.
keep going guys. i like it…
Lee Wang Yen,
Please go and drink some bakuteh…
then come back with open heart…
and please drop out those out-of-context islamic terms…
if dunno how to use, dont use it blindly…
syncbasher83
Haiya, banyak susah lah mahu bincang sama du. Macam ini la, Kelantan bukan sebuah negara lah. Di Kelantan bilangan bukan muslim sekelingtir shj, jadi tiada masalah lah. Semua orang sana bermesra shj kerana muslim tidak rasa terancam. Kalau bilangan bukan muslim macan selangor atau Perak, lain cerita lah. Jangan selalu ingat ugama itu boleh selesaikan semua masalah di dunia ini. Dunia ini telah beribu tahun beragama lah, tetapi dunia tetap bermasalah. Jangan harap parti politik yang beercorak agama itu lebih alim. Semua sama sahaja, nak kuasa untuk membuat sesuatu. Jadi, tenggok lah juah sikit. I am not indoctrinated in anyway lah, don’t worry about me. You have to worry for yourself.
i mean secular state.. not scholar state..sorry..
syncbasher83
Was there a referendum done that say 55% Malaysian Muslims (whatever order u prefer) want an Islamic state?
Just curious. Just got out of jail, so I’m a bit in the dark on many issues.
One who thinks that he had used certain term at utmost appropriate context has the most moral obligation to explain its legitimate and appropriate! Period!
now show me where the word taqiyya u got from? which verse which surah of quran? and what hapen during wen that word is being used? Period even a muslim primary schooler know this!
PAS had successfully reached out toward nonmuslims but DAP TOTALLY failed to reach on muslims especially among malays. – syncbasher83
Your observation is interesting and could well be correct.
I had lost hope to this current DAP leadership and im calling for YB Lim and YB Karpal Singh to step down to allow a more progressive, tolerant new leadership to take over DAP. Period! -syncbasher83
Rather than call for the resignation of two widely respected politicians you could perhaps tell these two gentlemen how they could win the trust of the muslims in Malaysia. ;)
A Cambridge upstart does what a Cambridge upstart has to do.
rojak,
im so sorry to have confused u. the only thing i can help u is by asking u to directly copy and paste any of my statement above saying “55% Malaysian Muslims want an Islamic state?”
Your sincerity is very much thank you!
Some commentators take great liberty in asserting a certain stance as representing 90% or 95% of DAP supporters (or the people in Malaysia).
This are bold, but unfounded, conjectures.
Let us assume that 90% of the commentators in this blog who have written on issues relating to DAP’s co-operation with PAS hold the view those commentators say they do.
Can we be justified to infer from this that 90% of DAP supporters hold this view?
Before any reasonable representative data has been collected and prior to any responsible statistical survey, it’d be prudent to avoid bold talks about whose view on which matter is the overwhelming majority.
this syncbasher83 is becoming more and more “action” lah. We don’t drink bakuteh lah, we eat. We drink some tiger beer lah, can or not?
Opps ‘…THESE are bold…’
syncbasher83
Thank Q u for bothering to answer my stupid question. I do get easily confused, u know’lah “English better than MM Taib but still ultah”
Pls continue with the debate, I’ll go back to my comic books.
PS: I ask the Q in utmost sincerity
now he arque that since kelantan non-muslim are small percentage so there is no problem. why dont u see it the other way.. wow even though there were small percentage of non-muslim in kelantan but they have the same right as other kelantan people. well taken care and not di anak tirikan/dihalang/ditindas…etc so if small people get the same right, so why other state need to be afraid? there are larger/stronger right?
Sdr. LimKamPut says:
Chinese chauvinism? What Chinese chauvinism? We have never asked for a Chinese Taoist Malaysia, or a Chinese Christian Malaysia. What we are asking for is secular multiracial and multi-religious Malaysia. It is an inclusive ideal where every citizen irrespective of race, religion, and region will someday be treated equally and fairly in this land of ours. If other races or religious groups can’t see eye to eye with DAP’s Malaysian First, then it is they who are racists or religious bigots. It is they who want to impose their way of life and values on others.
Sir, the Muslims have seen the many sins committed by BN which they consider to be a secular government. Therefore to tackle their fear of sins and moral decadence they have to sit down and see how these excesses could be curbed. They have to look for ways to work together for the common good of the people.
We have to move beyond just saying Malaysian First. ;)
Sorry,
… they means the coalition leaders. :)
limkamput,
haiya manyak susah ar cakap sama lu lar. ini negara islam bukan macam itu iran lar. kelantan buat lain, kedah buat lain lain lah. ikut rakyat masing-masing lah…
itu jakim paksa pukul sama org bukan islam sekali kalo tanya PAS confirm xsetuju. Mana buley paksa sesiapa…
itu kelantan sudah sepuluh taun woo, tngan siapakah dipotong?
semua prinsip negara islam dijalankan secara beransur-ansur dan penerimaan oleh rakyat juga…bukan main paksa wooo
nak minum bakuteh di kota bharu pun senang cari, mana ad susah…
haiya jangan dengar itu org lain cakap, xpayah pergi jauh tengok saja di kelantan lah…
Devilmaster,
Aiyoh, can play football only not good enough lah. Ivory Coast, Nigeria etc also can play lah. Like I said earlier, name me an Islamic state which can be an example for others – in terms civil liberty, economic freedom, rule of law, democracy, prudent economic management etc. lah. The best example they gave me was Turkey.
I think that many of those posting here failed to see that PAS is now going mainstream.
It’s no longer confined to Muslim dominated states in the north and east. They are located in far more other states then you care to know!
In fact it has an imposing HQ right in the golden triangle!
Also, many failed to see the tenacity of of Muslim fanatics. If they want to establish an Islamic State, they are not going to let anything stand in their way!
I think that it would be better for the PR to break up than for the DAP, especially its leaders like Uncle Lim and Uncle Kapal Singh to live a life of lies!
If so many of you are adamant about living life under a Muslim State with Hudud laws or worse, go right ahead!
Don’t say that you have not been warned that you could end up being ruled by someone akin to the Taliban!
PAS is a political liability to DAP . Is Anwar thinking PKR can escape the fate that PAS will be its political liability too?
IKt says: “We have to move beyond just saying Malaysian First”.
First you may want to explain what you have in mind when you see the term “Malaysian First”. Second, please explain to me what is meant by “We have to move beyond just saying Malaysian First.” Seriously I don’t really know what is in your mind and I don’t know what is troubling you.
‘Bakuteh is a Chinese favorite soup dish in Malaysia. Best cooked with meat bones’
its a food not a drink- at least im agree on this
syncbasher83 Says:
One who thinks that he had used certain term at utmost appropriate context has the most moral obligation to explain its legitimate and appropriate! Period!
now show me where the word taqiyya u got from? which verse which surah of quran? and what hapen during wen that word is being used? Period even a muslim primary schooler know this!
Arrogance has no place in spiritual man. a lot of the people who posts here are ignorant of Islam. But thanks to internet technology, we have access views from differing schools of thoughts among the various religions, in particular, Islam.
If we are ignorant we beg your compassion to educate us. A Taoist quote:
Quote:
The journey of humanity is the journey from ignorance to enlightenment. It’s like an endless march of souls through eternity. If you are standing in an infinitely long line of souls, how can you say that your position is superior to others? When there is no head and no end to the line, it doesn’t matter what place you hold. Therefore it is foolish to look down on those standing behind. They now occupy the place where you once stood. Instead of pride, you should feel compassion. If you cannot remember this, just think of all the people ahead of you. You aspire to their place, and you should work diligently.
Unquote.
Perak have a PAS Menteri Besar who besides his mother tongue can speaks Mandarin, Tamil and other dialects, does that make him a great deal? Not at all, it is quite a norm nowadays to be able to speak three to five languages.
limkamput Says:
Today at 01: 18.04 (10 minutes ago)
IKt says: “We have to move beyond just saying Malaysian First”.
First you may want to explain what you have in mind when you see the term “Malaysian First”. Second, please explain to me what is meant by “We have to move beyond just saying Malaysian First.” Seriously I don’t really know what is in your mind and I don’t know what is troubling you.
Sir,
I am troubled because we are heading towards self defeat… :(
Malaysian First means one people…. one nation….
Can we not work hard to try to understand each others aspirations and move forward together?
TO SUCCEED, THE BASIS OF THE RELATIONSHIP WITHIN THE COALITION MUST BE ON THE RIGHT PATH… OF MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING AND RESPECT
i guess as much you have very different understanding of what Malaysian First is all about. Anyway i want to sleep already. May be we continue tomorrow.
Guys & Gals,
Why are we even arguing over this.
Our Founding Fathers drafted the Constitution and meant Malaysia to be a SECULAR state, with Islam as official religion.
I’m sure they have their wisdom at that time to decide what is best for Malaysia. Let’s respect that.
If you want to change the Constitution, then you have to muster the 2/3 support in parliament to change it. But rest assured DAP will be there to oppose change of the SECULAR nature of our governmen to any religious based.
For the matter, DAP does not have a formal pact with PAS before the election. So, DAP has always make its drawing of the line in the sands very clear.
I’m a Perakian and I support the PAS MB, even though by majority vote, DAP should get the MB post.
DAP has been shortchanged, not only out of a MB post in Perak, but not even a deputy MB in both Perak and Selangor. Yet, DAP supporter supports a PAS MB as the pragmatic solution, instead of confrontation with unfairness in the state constitution.
I support YAB Nizar bcoz he has shown the pragmatic side of PAS, and do seems like a fair person. Still we have to wait and see for many years down the road.
Therefore, us, DAP supporter would like to see the pragmatic side of the national PAS, instead of issuing statements immediately after the Pakatan Rakyat draft to still stake their Islamic State agenda.
Well, prior to election they never mention Islamic State, now they do, would’nt that be tantamount to cheating the voters ?
Many of us non-Muslims voted for PAS as well.
petestop Says:
“Well, prior to election they never mention Islamic State, now they do, would’nt that be tantamount to cheating the voters ?
Many of us non-Muslims voted for PAS as well.”
True. And DAP was encouraging voters to vote for whatever opposition including PAS. Now, it really does appear that PKR-DAP-PAS alliance is just a marriage of convenience.
I am of the opinion that it really does not matter if DAP wants to be in alliance with PAS and PKR or not. If it wants to be part of the alliance, then issues such as this one with PAS need to be worked out and discussed internally. I do not see any benefit in debating this openly and the strategic intent of such a move is unclear to me. If the differences between PAS and DAP are that great that there is no hope whatsoever in working together, then the right thing for DAP to do, in my opinion, is to get out of the alliance. I would respect the DAP leadership more if it is decisive and not be wishy washy over such matters.
Make a decision. Live and work with that decision.
lkt-56,
im at my utmost disappointment and saddened toward certain ppl’s consistent statements by using certain terms which im sure he has no rights to use it by putting it into a context that at the end viewed other ppl’s religion as intolerant, inhumane etc
he by doing so thinks that by doing so, he can woo at other ppl, viewing him as the all-knowing, never-wrong, more superior person than everyone else. he had so far used all the Islamic terms inappropriately and out-of-context in his aim to view islam as incompetent and intolerant.
that word taqiyya-deceptive strategy is a strategy used in open combat war when those days when islam was at its first baby steps. at that time, the muslims had to go into war. and i would say in any open war, regardless by anywho, they will use deceptive strategies to confuse the enemy. or u hav any example of somebody at war being transparent enough telling every strategy they have to their enemy. as so, the word taqiyya used by certain ppl here is wrong in the sense of totally out-of-context and wrongly view islam in a way that he hoped so to prove that his ideology is better.
so to avoid me explaining every mistake that he had done, why dont he himself, the one whose coming up with the mistakes, stop using such terms that hes not familiar with, to avoid misusing of such term to badmouthing others. if he still insist to use such terms, im begging him to state from which verse and surah of Quran did he take it, and whether the context is in line…
Petestop,
I congratulate you for being the voice of reason – but unfortunately you’re to the left of center within the DAP and a minority whose numbers are fast dwindling.
You’re already asking like many others are beginning to do i.e. whether Perak and Selangor were really victories for the DAP, whether the present band of ragtag party hopefuls representing a diverse group could work together to bring about the kind of change needed to move this country out of the shit hole it found itself in.
If you have not seen the movie “Battle for Haditha” go see it. It will help you understand a little about where the Islamic ‘extremists’ are coming from and the thinking that predominates a post 9/11 Islamic world.
The problem has not changed i.e. that the DAP is no different from PAS. Both are held together as a cohesive whole by their uncompromising commitment to conflicting ideologies – one based on its commitment to a secular state and the other a non-secular state. I prefer the use of the term “non-secular” as opposed to an Islamic state for obvious reasons. The word “Islamic” in its present context conjures the image of fundamentalist Islam which PAS represents to both moderate Muslims and non-Malay non-Muslims. PAS is not only the Islamic party. UMNO is the other. PKR appears to be in limbo – though not for very long.
So where does this road lead us if not to Haditha?
This nation will never progress if PAS or UMNO still insist that Malaysia is an Islamic State. This nation was founded on a basis of a secular government which will represent all races. Why the change now? So kudos to DAP for insisting that this nation is still secular. If we are willing to secede our secular rights, then soon we’ll lose our civil courts to the syariah courts. You all have seen that our judges have no guts to stand up for the Constitution when there is a conflict between the civil courts and syariah courts despite the fact that it is clearly written in the Constitution that civil courts will triumph syariah courts decision. If the issue of an Islamic state will desolve the Pakatan Rakyat, then so be it. And let this be a lesson to our representatives that if you do not uphold our Consitution and play by racial issues to up your base, then you are indeed playing with fire and deserve to lose the election.
The BN was voted out because it has failed to represent the views of the people and has become ignorant thinking that they are the putras of this nation. If some members of the BR thinks that politics is the stepping stone to richness, then they themselves are to blame for the fall and not the DAP for enlightentning them. If our government does not openly drop it’s Islamic State concept, we will continue to lose our young talents to other nations who appreciate them and their knowledge. 2008 is the Year of the Young Voters throughout the world. I hope our politicians remember this and find 21st century solutions to solve 21st century problems.
What is this stupid news? Is it still possible for her to get pregnant at this age?
>Jeanne is neither pregnant nor angry with Abdullah
>KUALA LUMPUR: She is not pregnant and she is not angry with her Prime Minister husband.
Some of the readers here are right – DAP has to make a decision and not allow the situation to fester. Like some wounds, it can only get worse, not better, if drastic surgery is not used. Decide, inform the rakyat, and act accordingly. And live with the consequences.
Lee Wang Yen not only used the word Taqiyya, he also used terms like dhimmi, which is the equivalent of a second-class citizen, to alarm the readers here. He found those from the wikipaedia, and he was so proud of it. Nothing like an Chinaman academician living in UK telling us how we should live our lives and behaving like a Muslim scholar.
UNCLE LIM THERE ARE THREE APPROACHES TO TAKE-
……….RIGHT, LEFT OR THE CENTRAL APPROACH…………..
WOULDN’T THE CENTRAL APPROACH BE A SAFE POSITION TO TAKE?
I just really hope this pakatan rakyat will not broke up!! TOUCH WOOD! and all the people in Pakatan Rakyat should think before saying because they are in a new alliance now. Silap Cakap Sikit SAja… cannot undo anymore… PLUS…. BN newspaper will use it as the main point to jatuhkan us all!
The issue of whether PAS will keep their words is very dependent on the leaders of the day. Whatever you may to them to commit, it would only be good so long that the leadership is still in power. Should there be a change in their leadership , what then?. Then you talk again as to whether the relationship can continue. Trying to anticipate others’ sincerity through this column can add further mistrust to all parties; especially when many of you are insinuating all kinds of thinking on their behalf.
Please remember we are dealing with people who too have emotions and their own perception of their faiths; many seem to think that yours are the ‘correct path’. If the world can be divided into white and black, we all would be without worry and do what you want to do without a second thought. But this is not possible!
So please stop all these unnecessary arguement and let take things they come along.
# Godfather Says:
Yesterday at 22: 46.20
“In case you still can’t understand, my problem with Kit is two-fold:
1. Members of alliances or coalitions should not draw lines in the sand.
2. Members of alliances and coalitions should solve their problems behind closed doors.
There is no such thing as “either you are with me or against me” in politics and Kit should know that.”
If I’m not mistaken, the Islamic State and Hudud laws issues were trashed out before the GE.
It was not mentioned in any of PAS’s manifesto.
So, everything goes forward and the opposition got very good support from the electorate.
Don’t Godfather think that dropping the Islamic State and Hudud laws have anything to do with the resounding victory?
It definitely has!
So, now seeing that it has so much support from the electorate, PAS has reverted to its true colour and started hankering for the Islamic State and Hudud laws.
Don’t Godfather think that PAS is a party without any principles and scruples?
To go along with such devious tactics will not only make Uncle Lim a party to them but will underscore him as lying to the electorate!
Would Godfather like to have ALL the opposition parties to be of the same stripe as the BN?
Liars, cheats, scums?
Don’t Godfather, as well as the rest of us, like honest to goodness politicians for a change after fifty years of filth?
So, instead of supporting such politicians, there are many here who would like nothing better then to see them torn down!
The problem is not Islam or PAS per se. I think the incorporation of Islamic values which are universal values into the value system for the administration of the country is unobjectionable. PAS stripped of its claim for an Islamic State would be an unobjectional partner and if the present development, especially in Perak, is any indication, they will make a good partner.
I think we cannot on the one hand insist on a democracy and on the other hand resist any attempt to create an the Islamic State through the democratic poilitical process. But we can agree to change the constitution to make it more difficult to attain an Islamic State.
But I think now is not the right time for the DAP to make such a demand on PAS. The time will come, and I have a feeling it will come soon, when DAP would really be the ‘kingmaker’ with enough clout and Federal seats to determine who rules. That will be the time to really work for the further constitutional entrenchment of the secularity of Malaysia.
In the meanwhile, we can go on with the Pakatan as it is. DAP will however have to work on a plan to become and stay being that party that will be, though small, indispensable. But we must be sincere and make it clear that we have no problems with Islam and its correct teachings per se, that we have no problems with our Muslims and Malay fellow Malaysians.
The constitution presently entrenches secularity so long as there is at least a one-third of the MP’s who still want a secular state. We can entrench secularity further by requiring an agreement (determined by a referendum) of say 85% of the people or eligible voters for an Islamic State.
We should wait for the right moment to initiate talks for that further entrenchment. Even in our discussion now with PAS or PKR, the focus should not be a bare opposition to the idea, which will only attract like opposition, each being locked in a certain position – PAS for an Islamic State, DAP against and PKR, for political reasons having to keep mum about the issue – but on an amendment of the constitution to make it even more difficult to change our country into an Islamic State. That way, not only could we constructively move the discussion forward rather being caught in a deadlock, an answer or solution becomes possible. The PKR and many Muslims, even from PAS itself, may concur. The hitherto “hardcore” PAS leaders may see this as a way to “withdraw from the stage” without being seen as making too much of a compromise, still being able to maintain “face”.
Otherwise, we would once again go down the road of mug-slinging and hurting each other which will lead to a quick demise of the Pakatan and a quick end to our joy and sweet and legitimate expectations in the aftermath of victory day. It was a hard-earned and long overdue victory over the dreaded BN and therefore I can understand and feel the desperation of brothers like Godfather. At the same time, I can also understand the concern of brothers llike Jeffrey, limkamput and Lee Wang Yen.
“Nothing like an Chinaman academician living in UK telling us how we should live our lives and behaving like a Muslim scholar.”
LOL
godfather, u mean dis Lee Wang Yen talking bout zimmi? dhimmi=zimmi? meaning zimmi during ottoman empire ala2 ice age?
trying to view muslims as intolerant and treating nonmuslims as slaves such like in those ice age? zimmi wen ppl uses swords, bows and arrows? zimmi wen ppl riding horses, hunting for food in the forest?
The next thing i would like to hear from this Lee Wang Yen, our great great great islamic scholar is an open apology! thats it, he crossed the line…
lkt-56, agreed with u everybody must take a centered road. but the problem is v all been trying to say this from the very beginning. and the only respond weve got so far is we r obstructing the minority/secular tyranny view of some ppl over here..and im taking a harder line to show to some ppl over here so that they will b more realistic. they r at the very end of the rope and got other ppl also at the other end, their view is not centered.
limkamput, eat bakuteh, drinking tiger beer. have u ever heard nonmuslim in kelantan complaining so?
hehe thanks, so most developed nations r secular state?
u mean singapore? singapore which ban wearing headscarf among muslims women in public offices? same goes for france?
is that ur idea of secular state? even sharia law cannot be practiced?
cannot sharia law? so a muslim wife being neglected cannot go to any sharia court to apply divorce from her husband? muslims who drink alcohol, adultery cannot be punished by sharia court? so all the things ‘ibadah, muamalat, adaab, i’tiqaat, ‘uqubat, sawn, zakat, fasakh, hibbah, faraid etc can do where? civil court? is that ur idea of secular state?
It is perhaps time to improve the relationships among the different religions. We should try to understand each other better. We should set up a society of true harmony in religion, and set an example to the world. Malaysia could be the second Jerusalem, as a melting pot of many major religions.
There are many similarities and connections among the major religions. Here are my interpretations:-
Christianity and Islam (and Jewish) have the same origin. It is better to look at the similarities and improve the understanding
Buddism originated from Hinduism. Don’t be fooled around that it is Chinese. Chinese culture is also strongly affected by Buddism, and thus Hinduism, as a result of trading through the silk road.
syncbasher,
Sharia Law is fine, as long as it is confined to muslims.
It is the attempt to impose it on non-muslims that is totally
not acceptable,.
Let’s not forget that one of the reason for the big non-Muslims swing vote in PRU-12 is due to erosion of our civil rights in cases like the body-snatching, Revathi, Lina Joy, Hindu temple demolishing, not to mention the decades old denial of our simple requests to build our places of worship, using our own money on our own land.
All these are just “preview” of what is to come of a religious state,
I’m sorry, but we will fight this to the end.
That is only on the religious aspect, but further adding insult to injury is the many racist remarks by the likes of Kerismuddin and Kera Jantan, if the next line of UMNO leaders is of such racist background, they can be sure that our votes will forever be with DAP or whoever that puts Malaysian First as the agenda.
If DAP have to live outside Pakatan Rakyat, so be it, they will still get my 2 Rockets.
About the only thing that is fair in Malaysia is that every citizen gets a vote, we will make sure to use it.
All these are just “preview” of what is to come of a religious state,
I’m sorry, but we will fight this to the end.-petestop
as far as i know these things u mentioned above done by who? PAS? or UMNO? isnt UMNO secular?
that jakim who propose this thing is the same jakim who clamp down on islamist nationwide saying they r terorist, they who tore apart surau and mosques nationwide who is not in line with Islam Hadhari! they who fired away tok imams tok bilals not in line with their poltical aspiration!
try ask PAS, see whether they agree with jakim’s proposal? anything so called this preview matter u have seen in kelantan the past 10 years, since 1990? any?
What is so great about PAS in Kelantan?
Damocles:
The issue of Islamic state was not explicit in the Opposition manifesto because both PAS and DAP had (and still has) intractable positions. PAS could never denounce their Islamic state ideals, and DAP could never be comfortable working with PAS, especially after the 1999 experience. Now, some readers here believe that because the manifesto was silent on the issue, therefore it is only “reasonable” to assume that the Opposition had agreed that there will be no Islamic state. This is wishful thinking on the part of these DAP supporters – if you have been a political observer, you would have understood that the reason for the omission of the Islamic agenda in the manifesto was so that the parties can agree to disagree. Many voters know that.
Damocles went on to say:
“Would Godfather like to have ALL the opposition parties to be of the same stripe as the BN?
Liars, cheats, scums?
Don’t Godfather, as well as the rest of us, like honest to goodness politicians for a change after fifty years of filth?
So, instead of supporting such politicians, there are many here who would like nothing better then to see them torn down!”
So would withdrawing from the Pakatan Rakyat, and thereby giving more power to the BN – not to mention making BN a lot bolder in their actions – actually help bring down the liars, cheats and scums ? DAP and PAS are playing into the hands of BN by having this “open” warfare and we will have another fifty years of filth.
Dawsheng:
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. If there is nothing “great” about PAS in Kelantan, would the people (the Kelantanese) still continue to support them ? For a start, the government there doesn’t steal from the people. Just compare them to Trengganu.
Whether PAS in Kelantan steal from the people is not for you to say, you don’t know that.
Synbasher83:
Go to the archives in this blog, and look for the thread in March that has over 1700 comments to trace the arguments put forth by Lee Wang Yen against PAS and its Islamic ideals.
Dawsheng:
By the same reasoning, do you know for certain that BN steals from the people ? You only read and hear, right ?
Do you hear of PAS in Kelantan issuing APs, creating concessions to cronies, awarding contracts to relatives ?
PAS do not have the authority to issue AP and you can’t compare BN and PAS with the same reasoning. However, similarities do exist between PAS and UMNO.
“that jakim who propose this thing is the same jakim who clamp down on islamist nationwide saying they r terorist, they who tore apart surau and mosques nationwide who is not in line with Islam Hadhari! they who fired away tok imams tok bilals not in line with their poltical aspiration!” Syncbasher83
The case of Islam Hadhari after it replaced UMNO Islam versus PAS Islam in the quest for power, once PAS Islam is in authority they will then practice persecution against Islam Hadhari and UMNO Islam.
BA wud need to takle the ” Islamic State ” issues wisely and in a more prudent way…
Any extremist attempt by any party will destroy the coalition… Hope all party leaders kmow this seriously else BA will be “discard ” by voters in next round of GE….
YB Mr Lim KS and all other BA leaders … pls use your ” political Will and Wisdom ” to handle this……
“….once PAS Islam is in authority they will then practice persecution against Islam Hadhari and UMNO Islam.”
You don’t know that. It is pure speculation and not for you to post such an alarmist comment.
Some of the readers here are of the view that it is also possible that PAS and UMNO could turn out to be collaborators to amend the federal constitution for their own ends.
So if PAS Islam will persecute against Islam Hadhari and UMNO Islam, then they can’t be collaborators and could act as a check and balance for the non-Muslims ? Make up your mind.
Indonesian authority has accused Sabah and Sarawak for hiring Indonesians as foot soldiers to defend Malaysia. Here, in the North Malaysia, the Thai authority has accused Malaysia of harboring Islamist terrorist from the South Thailand insurgency. All these states are either control by UMNO or PAS.
.. you think so ??? , But voters emotional is difficult to fathom…. result cud swing easily….
Dawsheng: What is your point ? That the Indonesian and Thai accusations are correct ? That our Muslim brothers harbour Islamic terrorists ? You are threading on dangerous ground here with this sort of inference.
The case of Islam Hadhari after it replaced UMNO Islam versus PAS Islam in the quest for power, once PAS Islam is in authority they will then practice persecution against Islam Hadhari and UMNO Islam-dawsheng
this is a pure speculative accusation. When is that Islam Hadhari was introduced? 2004? whose in power of kelantan state government since 2004? annuar musa? i would like to invite dawsheng to come over to kelantan to see it for yourself with an open heart of course! and while u r in kelantan, do open your eyes widely while in jeli, jalan kebun sultan in kota bharu and numerous kampong cina in kelantan. do an interview with any chinese tok penghulu will u?
“You don’t know that. It is pure speculation and not for you to post such an alarmist comment.” Godfather
That’s what syncbasher83 said about Jakim insn’t it, persecution among different Muslim factions in not new in Malaysia.
Why do non-musims need check and balance from other religions when we have existing laws?
Quite naturally, PAS has to treat Kelantan Chinese better than Kelantan Malay, do PAS have a choice? No!
Just a simple words to a PR, would you all want to win the federal govt? If yes, please come out with a policy that all the Rakyat want. If PAS insist of the islamic state and hudud law, then forget about the federal goverment. Continously like this, i will not vote at all in the coming PRU.
in the march 8, the first time i felt that all Malaysian are really united and together to reject the corrupted govt, but then it does not mean we want to be taliban rule govt.
To PAs, don’t break the alliances. Go and and hear from the people. Jangan pandai pandai buat keputusan sendiri. Tak ada bezanya kamu dengan BN yang selalu membuat polisi yang kononnya rakyat mahu. STOPPED IT
do PAS have a choice? No!-dawsheng
95% of kelantanese population is malay muslims. asking do pas has a choice somemore?
I think he belongs to a certain grouping that firmly believes that PAS has a grand plan to capture the federal government, and amend the federal constitution. Hence PAS being nice to Kelantan Chinese is part of this grand plan to lull the non-Muslims into complacency and vote PAS into power. What a bunch of conspiracy theorists. They should start writing novels.
Whenever you hear of corruption in Kelantan, it is from anecdotal evidence of friends/businessmen doing business requiring forest or land concession. Nik Abdul Aziz boasted, “none of our state PAS leaders were charged with corruption.” That’s true : that does not prove at all, as what dawsheng said, that PAS’s officials will be immune when in power especially over vast resources. Kelantan is one of the poorest states, without much development, so what projects deserving big % of kickbacks can one farm out there at this moment??? Be that as it may, I am sure at this moment because of greater religiosity or whatevert reason, the hardcore PAS officials running the state are more disciplined than the BN’s lot generally and besides they need to showcase administration in Kelantan as “clean” to win confidence of people in other states to advance their ultimate objective.
After all has been said, the people rejection of PAS’s ideology of Islamic theocracy is based on the unsuitability of such a political framework for a multiracial and multi religious country for which a secular inclined framework based on Federal Constitution is thought to work best. People do not reject PAS because it is corrupt (based on record) and the fact that it has a “clean” image does not bear on the equation.
Kelantanese are parochial and generally they are a different from the counterparts in other states. Generally they are thought more hard working and industrious and they are fiercely loyal to one and another (transcending sometimes race). Being parochial they consider BN as outsiders and would not give two hoots on what
they sell ie. bringing development to Kelantan etc.
I don’t believe that in order to bring down the liars, cheats and scums in BN, we have to tolerate the irony of being also cheated and lied to that Islamic state was in the backburner (as stated in the Opposition Manifesto) in order just so to find that, after electoral victory with the help of those opposed to the Islamic theocratic agenda, this agenda will be revived to burn bright and clear to further PAS’s agenda, kept in abeyance temporarily as a deceptive strategy…
The treatments of PAS towards Kelantan Chinese cannot be attributed with benefits of having an Islamic state, but it is due to PAS political ambition to turn Malaysia into an Islamic state, it is nothing more than a smokescreen or part of PAS strategy.
We make another example a country is running by Islamic party, Turkey. Do they turn Turkey into a Taliban rule govt by implementing Hudud law? I am surprise that within the PAS party itself there is so many of the educated ppl, but their thinking is in sixth century. The world is changing!!! Are you telling me you still want ppl stone to dead in the public? No entertainment, no gambling, no beer / liqouor?
I dont care whether they have choice. Its not my business to think for them. They have to think of themself. Rakyat given them the power, go and figure it themself. We can give you the power, we can take it back.
Chinese Dynasty also has its own problem pertaining to blending of religion into constitution. A good movie to look is “Han Wu Da Di”
Once religion is blended to constitution, Malaysia will go backward rather than forward, Kelantan and Terengganu state are two very classic example after 50 yrs of independence. The ruler, and rich people will govern the remaining poor farmer, and fisherman.
We are just debating and arguing issues that amongst us there are differences of opinion.
With due respect Godfather, you would appreciate that saying and labelling those whom you do not agree as belonging to a certain grouping that is right wingers or extremist or should be writing novels (to suggest they are captive of overstimulated imagination than reality) or that they are “Chinaman academician living in UK telling us how we should live our lives and behaving like a Muslim scholar” does not advance one bit or an iota of your position or argument against the other side, and that all these comments look more like a personal attack and negative emotional response against a messenger whose message you don’t like or share than there is anything unsound in their message and anything sounder in your own.
Lakilompat, i agree with you. If Kelantan and Terenganu they dont want to develop, its their people rights to keep on that and i am respecting them. But please do not do this to whole Malaysia. Again and again, dont be like our PM. PAS leaders should go out and do a survey what the ppl want from the PR and what is their concern. Dont cakap lain buat lain pulak.
“Dawsheng: What is your point ? That the Indonesian and Thai accusations are correct ? That our Muslim brothers harbour Islamic terrorists ? You are threading on dangerous ground here with this sort of inference.” Godfather
I did not say the accusations are correct, I said there are these accusations.
But you said that these states are controlled by UMNO or PAS. what is the connection ?
Of couse, Taqiyya has been used in open combats of phyiscal wars. But it has also been used in other contexts, including ideological struggles.
Some assume that since Taqiyya has been used in open combats, it has not been and cannot be used in political struggles. This assumption clearly lies behind the misguided accusation of my use of the term Taqiyya out of context.
Taqiyya is a general principle that can be used in many different contexts when Muslims find themselves in a bad position. The fact that this principle has been used in warfare does not mean that it has not been or cannot be used in other contexts, including ideological struggles.
Even if one insists that it can only be used in warfare (which is not true), we must not lose sight of the fact many some Muslims see Jihad as either metaphorically referring to or literally encompassing ideological struggles.
(Cf. even Sunzi’s Art of War can be and has been applied to contexts other than physical war – e.g. business, politics etc)
Of course, Muslims disagree on the legitimacy and the extent of legitimate use of Taqiyya. That’s why I have been careful to qualify my statements when I refer to Taqiyya: ‘according to some interpretation…’
First, deny muslims rights for an Islamic state, thats ok
Second, deny muslims rights for Hudud Laws, still ok
Third, deny muslims rights to Sharia Laws, that scared me abit
Fourth, ban on muslims wearing tudung in government places, France, singapore?
Fifth, ban on muslims wearing tudung in public, prev Turkey?
Sixth, jails all islamist opposition as they r terrorist, Egypt?
Seventh, kills and take away muslims lands, Palestine?
Islamic state and hudud laws are muslims rights, protect muslims rights!
Secular only looks good on paper, really really bad outpaper!
Say No to Secular…
Ah, here comes Lee, the Muslim scholar. Care to expand on your definition of “dhimmis” for us all to understand ?
Why I say this is that when one resorts to labelling the messenger (which does not prove anything), one would give the impression that one is bereft of any sound points and arguments to rebut or disprove the other’s point of view and show one’s position is better on facts and logic – which is why labelling him is convenient to give impression at least to the less discerning that the other side is wrong.
We are all here for the common good and such tactics are not doing justice to those who express a view or position that one is unhappy of nor does it speak well or do good to the person who resort to them.
We can discuss and argue issues on objective plain without negative emotions coming in, can’t we not?
Sorry, should be the Islamic scholar. My mistake.
Labelling whom ? Conspiracy theorists ? Lee Wang Yen as an Islamic scholar ?
Go for Malaysia First secularism because it never infringes on the rights of anybody. Those who can’t see eye to eye with this ideal are themselves bigots and racists wanting to impose their way of life on others.
DAP, please stay within PR, not just to contain creeping Islamisation, but to make sure that Malaysia First secularism takes is right place in Malaysia. Don’t worry. The ideal of Malaysia First secularism is more encompassing, vibrant and robust than Islamic state. Be confident and promote it.
There are no examples of successful Islamic state in terms of civil liberty, rule of law, democracy, gender and minority rights, human rights and prudent economic management. Malaysia will never be a successful Islamic state. Those who believe political parties based on religion principles and therefore are holier, more humane and cleaner are living in naïve world.
Lee wang yen, prove it;
1. But it has also been used in other contexts, including ideological struggles
2. Taqiyya is a general principle that can be used in many different contexts when Muslims find themselves in a bad position
Ive said u should stop using terms that ur not familiar with! When u used it blind , its a mockery of Islam, and cosidered to be badmouthing. I would like u to apologize on giving false view on Islam!
And why talk about shooting the messenger ? I thought we are all here espousing our personal views, and not acting for others.
limkamput, u r turning blind onto facts that ppl gave u
as far as im concerned, malaysian secular until now gave us this…
1. students were banned from practicing their religious rights
2. surau, mosques, temples were flatten
3. malaysia is turning into old turkey, egypt, old iraq and as matter of fact, Israel
Say no to secular
Syncbasher83:
“Say no to secular” means say yes to Islamic ? Or say no the secular AND Islamic and leave it to interpretation as per the Constitution ?
Calling for total rejection of self-proclaimed islamic scholar who fascistically force everybody to accept his narrow minded theory only, look good onpaper only secular ideology that failed to materialize and being succumbed by living proofs that it demolishes not only minority rights but majority rights as well!
Say No To Secular! Stop transforming malaysia into the next singapore, old turkey, egypt, baathist iraq and zionist Israel!
Say No to secular!
godfather,
which one u prefer?
Synchasher83, those bad things you said happened is NOT because of secularism. Bad things happen because of bad people and bad people can be found in any society or any country, secular and Islamic. That is why we need robust institutions to keep bad people in check. Based on empirical evidence, secular democracy has better chance of containing bigotry, discrimination, corruption, abuse and mismanagement.
Say NO NO NO to Islamic state.
emipirical evidences?
can u please list them out for me. thank you!
Say No No No to Secular!
I have explained in some previous threads that my use of Wikipedia excerpts is meant to be a quick and easy source of references for others in this blog. It does not mean that I learned the term or concept from Wikipedia.
Wikipedia excerpts are but a tiny fraction of the excerpts that I have provided in this blog. Others are from BBC, Times, the Straits Times in Singapore, PAS leaders’ blogs, Lim Kit Siang’s archive, Dr. Ng Kam Weng’s articles, Harakahdaily etc.
‘Dhimmi’ is also mentioned in the excerpts of Dr. Ng’s articles I provided in this blog. He mentions that in conncetion with one of PAS’ proposals.
As I have said, these are not sources that one cites in academic writings (and this is not the place for research papers). These are but quick and easy sources for the conveniences of interlocutors in this block. Undoubtedly, some are more reliable than others. But it is unreasonable to dismiss them altogether, as if they all colluded to lie about Islam and PAS.
Thus, Godfather’s continuous attacks that focusses on my use of Wikipedia excerpts are unjustified and unfair.
By the way, I have repeatedly clarified that I’m a philosopher of science, not an Islamic scholar.
The comments have veered away into a dangerous course and discourse. Godfather may be the only sensible guy in this growing mess of arguments many of which are based on prejudices, conjectures and assumptions piled upon more prejudices, more conjectures and more assumptions.
Let us go back to basics. We want a democratic society and political system. As such, PAS is entitled to their political objective of turning this country into a Islamic State through the democratic process. The same goes to the DAP which is entitled to their objective of maintaining secular state and a Malaysian Malaysia. I am with the DAP’s political objective and as between the BN and PAS, would have no qualms choosing PAS as the better of the two “evils”.
The constitutional constraint is there – to turn into an Islamic State, PAS needs to have two-third Parliamentary majority. It does not mean that just because the constitution as it is endorses a secular state, PAS cannot and should be stopped from having the ambition of an Islamic State so long as it plans to achieve that ambition through the democratic process and subject to the constraints set by the Constitution. That much we have to accept if we are proclaiming democracy.
For the DAP, as I have said in an earlier comment, it has to plan to block PAS’ endeavours and such must be done within the framework of the democratic process. Declaring and arguing your stand, even the extent of distancing the DAP from PAS is one thing, those are your democratic rights, but there is a political reality that has to be taken into account.
The reality is that we must not allow the BN to once again rear its ugly head and impose its brand of racism and corruption. We have in a big way made inroads into the demolition of the BN after a long struggle of a few decades. We are now in a political position to reverse the overall destruction of the country. We must not destroy this opportunity to arrest the rot, reverse the damage and heal the wound and pain.
As matter stands now, DAP can only carry out this national nursing in partnership with PKR and PAS. Of course, in the enthusiasm to do that, DAP must not forget, compromise or abandon its political ideal of a secular Malaysian Malaysia. But political reality and expediency require DAP to keep silent for the moment.
What DAP should do is to use this momentum created by this euphoria of victory and the enthusiasm for change to build itself further by increasing its membership and public support. In the process, it should plan and carry out the plan to, by the democratic process, make it more and more difficult to turn this country into a an Islamic State without having to put itself at loggerhead with its political partners whom they cannot do without unless they are contented to once again be reduced to become an opposition party able only to bark and bark.
Already, DAP is able in Perak to grant more than a million new villagers their land entitlements. That by itself is a monumental achievement and DAP could do that not by itself but through its partnership with PKR and PAS. DAP is now able to walk into the public offices in Penang and Selangor and unravel land scams, irregularities and participate in governmant and impose its objectives and policies. It is already phenomenal and the wildest dream come true. And DAP is able to do that only with the partnership. Step back and savour the moment and appreciate the opportunity, preserve the status quo to be able to do much more for the people.
As said, I am not asking the DAP to abandon its secular Malaysian Malaysia political agenda, leave alone agreeing with PAS’ Islamic State. What I am saying is this – agree that PAS has the democratic right to aspire for an Islamic State, be clear that DAP is not agreeable to an Islamic State, plan and carry out the plan to convince more and more, especially non-Chinese, to subscribe to its ideology, cease all words and actions which would make them appear to be chauvinistic in favour of one race and at the right time, constitutionally entrench further the secularity of Malaysia.
We play by the constitutitonal rules and to change the rules by the rules instead of being emotional and getting everyone to become frenzied in the emotion of taking position, shouting at and abusing each other early in the morning even before the Sun shines on the new Malaysia. This opportunity for change does not come everyday.
I see the spectre of the Pakatan and the nation breaking up again so soon after I see that glimmer of hope. I jubilate then very quickly I sigh in sadness and resignation again. Why can’t we all be more politically astute and wait for the right moment. Why can’t we allow PAS its democratic right to aspire for an Islamic State while we carry out our democratic right to hamper that aspiration without having to destroy this opportunity to make this country great again. This country will be great again without the BN and our first mission now is to wipe out the BN, not to be at loggerhead with PAS.
syncbasher83, with the mindset like you, i wont give any chance at all to the party who would like to make malaysia become a islamic state. To LKS, quit from PR. Invite PRK to comes out together. Let the ‘other’ party to talk to himself.
HB Lim, totally agreed!
Why everyone feels that ‘sensitive’ issues must be discuss behind the scene? Are we not voting for a more transparent leadership? Do we not have enough of those ‘closed door’ discussions adopted by BN? Kit Siang is right to be open with his stand. Or would you rather it be discussed in the parliment instead? I say we should iron out the differences openly so that all of us is aware of waht is going on and what to expect.
Absolute tolerance is impossible. Acceptance of any system entails the rejection of some other system(s). If we accept the rule of law, we cannot accept anarchism. But we can choose a system that is more tolerant than others. While secular pluralist democracy cannot be absolutely tolerant, it is more tolerant than PAS’ version of Islamic state.
06 April, 2008 12:50 PM
Nik Aziz Selar Kenyataan Karpal Singh Perlekeh Usaha Bangunkan Islam
KOTA BAHARU, 6 April (Bernama) — Mursyidul Am PAS Datuk Nik Abdul Aziz Nik Mat menganggap kenyataan Pengerusi DAP Karpal Singh meminta agar PAS tidak memasang angan-angan untuk menunjangi Pakatan Rakyat kerana khuatir ia akan menegakkan negara Islam, sebagai memperlecehkan usaha membangunkan Islam oleh kerajaan Kelantan.
Nik Aziz yang juga Menteri Besar Kelantan meminta Karpal Singh memberikan bukti di mana kelemahan PAS yang telah mentadbir Kelantan mengikut acuan Islam selama 18 tahun itu.
“Saya nak tahu apa tak kena Islam dan apa lagi yang dia (Karpal Singh) tak setuju Islam. Semua masyarakat bukan Islam gembira berada di bawah kami (PAS),” katanya kepada pemberita selepas menerima lawatan Duta Besar Jepun ke Malaysia, Masahiko Horie di pejabatnya di sini, hari ini.
Minggu lalu, Timbalan Menteri Besar Kelantan Datuk Ahmad Yaakob berkata PAS wajar menjadi tunjang kepada Pakatan Rakyat yang dibentuk oleh parti- parti pembangkang sekiranya ia mahu merealisasikan impian menubuhkan sebuah negara Islam.
Ahmad berkata impian itu akan hanya tercapai akhirnya jika semua pihak memahami dan menerima konsep Islam yang sebenar, yang merupakan agama untuk semua umat manusia.
Nik Aziz menjemput Karpal Singh melawat Kelantan dan melihat sendiri pembangunan di negeri itu yang dibangunkan mengikut acuan Islam.
“Saya tanggung kos penginapan hotel. Tak payah jumpa saya pun tidak apa, jumpalah masyarakat bukan Islam di Kelantan dan lepas itu beritahu apa yang tidak baik dengan Islam ini,” katanya.
Nik Aziz berkata sistem kewangan Islam yang diterapkan kerajaan Kelantan juga telah diikitraf oleh pakar-pakar ekonomi seluruh dunia dan sejak Kelantan di perintah PAS banyak penambahbaikan telah dilakukan termasuk penghapusan riba dan mewujudkan pajak gadai Islam.
“Bukan itu sahaja, masyarakat bukan Islam juga diberi hak dengan dilantik sebagai penyelia masyarakat dan saya nak tanya dimana tidak baiknya apa yang kami buat ini,” katanya.
Beliau berkata masyarakat bukan Islam juga tidak pernah dipaksa untuk memeluk agama Islam dan sejak penerapan nilai Islam oleh PAS itulah menyebabkan kaum lain merasa selesa di bawah pemerintahan PAS.
Mengulas kunjungan Masahiko itu, Nik Aziz berkata duta itu tertarik dengan kerajinan wanita Kelantan mencari nafkah yang berbeza di tempat lain.
“Saya jemput duta itu untuk melawat Pasar Besar Siti Khadijah dan Pasar Borong Wakaf Che Yeh untuk melawat dari dekat kerajinan wanita Kelantan ini,” katanya.
— BERNAMA
syncbasher,
Well, I think it is only fair to see how PAS goes about governing states like Perak where half the population are non-Muslims.
One thing we can agree on with PAS is we all want to see an end to the misdeed and corruption of the BN government.
In the past many non-Malays supported the BN government, and closed one eye to their misdeed, as the perception is that BN is a more moderate and fair to all institution. However, it have seems to proven otherwise with rising extremism amongst their ranks, especially UMNO and the rest of the component parties are but reduced to “running dogs”, instead of partners.
Now let’s see how PAS will perform if given the chance. I think we can at least be fair on this point.
The moment we find something amiss, we can always vote them out again. Therefore,denying any parties a 2/3 majority in parliament is a must, be it BN or Pakatan Rakyat.
Power to the Rakyat of all-race and religion, and not any one race or religion !!
Lee Wang Yen,
and the 10% on the other side says the other way around…
well said
The Star:
Sunday April 6, 2008
Dr M responsible for poor state of judiciary: PM
KUALA LUMPUR: Prime Minister Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi said he holds his predecessor Tun Dr Mahathir Mohamad responsible for the poor state of the judiciary and lack of press freedom in the country.
He was speaking Sunday at a press conference after attending a briefing session with Umno’s information machinery at the Putra World Trade Centre here.
He also said that Gua Musang Umno division chief Tengku Razaleigh Hamzah is responsible for the Barisan Nasional’s losses in Kelantan.
Yeah, let the blaming game begin!
petestop,
well said.
why bother shouting on principle that the other half dislike right?
liveleas Says:
Today at 14: 13.01 (42 minutes ago)
Why everyone feels that ’sensitive’ issues must be discuss behind the scene? Are we not voting for a more transparent leadership? Do we not have enough of those ‘closed door’ discussions adopted by BN? Kit Siang is right to be open with his stand. Or would you rather it be discussed in the parliment instead? I say we should iron out the differences openly so that all of us is aware of waht is going on and what to expect
——————————
Sure. Iron out the differences openly, let everyone know every detail, get everyone into the debate – this creates a conducive environment where differences can be effectively ironed out. And once ironed out by the leaders, everyone is happy with the outcome. :)
Sometimes it is poised to be a big question mark whether Pakatan Rakyat could achieve its’ goal with all these bickering and misunderstanding. Though we know the top leadership is very determined to work together, differing views especially from PAS could be very obstructing to the common agenda of PR.
It is no point in setting up Islamic State in Malaysia which will certainly create uneasiness among non-Muslims. What PAS could do on the other hand is to promote the universal values that found in Islam which non-Muslims could adapt (if they want to) without feeing any pressure. PAS and other Muslims should understand all non-Muslims want is religion not be forced even in the name of Islamic State.
I sincerely hope the upcoming national conference that to be held soon by PKR-DAP-PAS would be able to resolve the many issues PR is facing currently and DAP and PKR must take all necessary steps to make the points to our PAS friends.
Mr. Lim Kit Siang & Mr. Karpal Singh,
To me, both DAP and PAS are the most ‘misunderstood’ political parties in Malaysia.
While DAP was misconstrued as a Chinese chauvinist party by the Malays, PAS was misunderstood as a fanatic Islamic party by Chinese. To me, these mis-perception were unfortunate because of propaganda of the unfair reporting of the mainstream media (MSM).
So, in order to have a solid Pakatan Rakyat, both DAP and PAS need to understand each other well, not through MSM, but through personal contacts among leaders of both side. In fact, Nik Aziz invites Mr. Karpal Singh to visit Kelantan as reported here http://lagiberita.blogspot.com/2008/04/datuk-nik-aziz-hasrat-belanja.html
and I am of the view that, Mr. Karpal Singh will accept his invitation.
As for issue regarding Islamic State, Mr. Hadi Awang already confirmed that an Islamic State will not be formed by PAS if non-Muslim disagree to it in other states of Malaysia. I believe Pakatan Rakyat can trash out this issue ultimately. Just understand each other well.
Another point is that, if PAS want to govern Kelantan based on Islamic concept, so long it does not infringe non-Muslim rights and overall Kelantanese agree to this, so be it. After all, the Kelantanese have choosen PAS to rule the state. If PAS’s way of ruling was not good, then logically, Kelantanese will vote them out. But, instead, PAS rules Kelantan for 18 years now.
So, I hope Mr. Karpal Singh will accept Nik Aziz invitation.
To understand the’ Medical’ Perspective on Why the BN Lost in the Recent Elections , please visit http://chin118.blogspot.com .
HB Lim says that comments have veered away into a dangerous course and discourse. Let’s see what’s everyone arguing about and whether they have verred. It started because YB Kit has made a public statement in this blog thread. Kit basically made a public statement that the rakyat (both Malays and Non Malays) voted resoundingly for the Opposition on March 8th “ based on mandate for justice, freedom, democracy and good governance and not for Islamic state and hudud laws”. Kit goes on to say that whilst “DAP’s respects PAS for its ideological position on the Islamic State”, however, DAP must beg to hold a different stand – that it believes that an “Islamic State concept is not a practical or feasible proposition or option for Malaysia which is a “modern, multi-racial and multi-religious society where non-Muslims comprise some 40 per cent of the population, and where it is not only non-Malays but Malays who oppose the establishment of an Islamic State” as well.
Debate & comments started because Godfather took him to task for giving in “to the extremist faction in DAP by openly calling for PAS to concede that its Islamic State concept is not a practical or feasible proposition or option for Malaysia”, and that Kit should have resolved matters behind closed door (so as not to jeopardize Pakatan Rakyat’s collaboration to rid the BN from power).
The debate in this thread emanates from this basic issue – whether Kit should have reaffirmed publicly DAP’s secular premise and rejection of Islamic State concept, and even go further by reciting “the reasons why DAP had to pull out of Barisan Alternative in 2001” which insinuates that if PAS persists in pursuing its agenda via the common opposition front, then it is conceivable that the DAP would stand firm and would be forced to withdraw from the Opposition front as it did in 2001. Godfather questions whether it is right for Kit to “draw the line in the stand” publicly (meaning giving no room for further manoeuverity on this difference in position in jeopardy of the fledging collaboration of PR).
These are the issues debated here – whether Kit should have done what he did.
PAS did mention the concept of Islamic State every now and then. I am not sure to what extent or degree of an Islamic State would PAS establish if they are to opt for it.
IMO, theocracy or any religious state,, is ‘not recommended’ because it has the potential that can lead to a non-negotiable dead end when it is hijacked by extremists. As for Islamic State, note the extreme end of Afghanistan’s Taliban and on average, are the repressives government in the middle east. The danger of an Islamic State is it’s potentiality to suddenly shift to the extremist end. How?
The most critical elements of theology (especially abrahamic) is centred and driven by the primal fear of death. The majority of religious followers are not even aware that they are in a state like a drowning person ‘clinging to a twig in the middle of pond for their life’.
This life-saving ‘twig’ is provided in the verses of the holy book. The verses are the infallible words from god and require total and absolute obedience to guarantee eternal life to gain eternal life and other heavenly rewards.
The problem arises when these verses contain violent elements, e.g. condemning or killing non-believers, convert everyone else, and anything that only favor their own religion. e.g.
<>
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html
It is argued that these violent verses should not be taken literally or should be read in the correct context. In reality, the minority and psycho(s) do not give a damm about such requirements when driven by madness.
The unfortunate thing is that, it is natural and inherent for any group of humans to have a minority (10- 20%) of psycho(s), mentally sick, and the depressed who do not value an earthly life. Some of the mentally deranged can be very smart and intelligent. Ted Bundy, Jim Jones, cult leaders, etc. Many highly ‘spiritual’ people had brain damage due to temporal epilepsy and some can be negative.
When psycho(s) take control over any religion or cult, they will obey all verses in their holy book literally in the mistaken belief that they are carrying out god’s order. This is the ‘opium’ that soothe their immediate psychological pains and their expected promise of eternal life, heaven and other rewards. The misguided bombers of 911 were intelligent people whose minds were focussed on heavenly rewards without a care of the innocents (even of their own kind).
PKR and DAP should work with PAS, but as PAS is theological based, one need to be informed and cautious of the inherent negative potential mentioned above.
If PAS is ever hijacked by extremists, i don’t think Nizar or the current leaders can do about that tsunami!
What we need is a ‘Humane State’ with democracy, freedom of speech (with responsibility) and where humans are encouraged to be active in continuous improvement in every aspect of their life.
At the same time we need to be aware and be prepared to face planetary problems threatening the human specie. Theology (esp. those with violent verses) is too kindergarten to handle this major problem of humanity.
Btw, I am not insisting that we say NO! absolutely to this or that, but there is nothing to lose to be well informed of all possibilities.
PS. I voted against BN not for other party.
Kit,
When you make a pact with someone, you have the rights to further your interests within the coalition. But don’t forget, your partner(s) equally have the rights to further their interests. As long as what your partner(s) do is NOT extreme or going overboard, you have to accept it. MODERATION from your partner(s) and TOLERATION from your side are the key to keep the pact in place.
Jeffrey has condensed the discussions in this thread very nicely, but allow me to elaborate further.
There are many views expressed here, but generally the positions can be summarised into the following:
1. Those who say “over my dead body” in cooperation with PAS – and therefore are in favour of rejecting Pakatan Rakyat, and giving up the state governments of Perak and Selangor altogether. Lee Wang Yen and Dawsheng are such examples.
2. Those who say that Kit should remain vigilant, should never compromise, but not leave Pakatan Rakyat. Limkamput is recommending this strategy.
3. Those who say that everyone has the right to agree to disagree, and therefore we should carry on with the mandate given by the people. No fighting in public. HB Lim and I are in this category.
4. Those who say that DAP has no right to protest against PAS’ Islamic state comments because a secular state is a no-no. Syncbasher 83 is promoting this view.
If you are a new reader of this thread, what category are you ?
I am of the view Kit is fully entitled. To recap : if PAS was a party to Manifesto excluding its agenda of Islamic state and have benefited from DAP’s collaboration and also votes in last election from those opposed to Islamic State based on its pre-election representation that this agenda had, by its omission in the Manifesto, being put in backburner, then PAS in the time immediately post election should not have revived publicly this agenda (via statements of its Deputy MB of Kelantan and press secretary to PAS’s President), for to do so is to engage in deceptive misrepresentation of DAP as well as those opposed to Islamic State who voted for its candidates being misled otherwise. PAS should not be rewarded by such behaviour by DAP’s and our keeping quiet – or working behind the scenes (just like the way MCA/Gerakan have to make requests or implorings to UMNO behind closed doors without transparency and disclosure to public).
My position stated above does not imply at all DAP to withdraw from the Pakatan Rakyat front or to not help the common cause of dislodging the BN. Like I said before if PAS were the party that had done wrong and had reneged or engaged in deceptive behaviour, why can’t it withdraw- why must it be DAP?
I must just saying that this is a situation (provoked by PAS) and Kit is right and having regard to the circumstances of what Deputy MB of Kelantan and press secretary to PAS’s President provocatively said, even timely for Kit to publicly tell PAS off and reaffirm the stand that DAP will not waver in its view that our secular constitutional premises still apply and will not appease, cooperate or compromise with PAS if it tries to reassert its agenda. Otherwise there is no problem in cooperating for common goals of good governance and democracy.
What I am surprised is the tendency of some commenters here who are blind to the right and wrong of the issues, and fearing the common effort to dislodge the moribund BN may be set back, are prepared to take Kit to task readily rather than PAS that has engaged in deceptive behaviour and by so doing show that they are prepared to subserviently compromise with all blandishment and deceptive behaviour on PAS’s part just so that the common object of ejecting BN is not compromised!
Jeffrey, there is nothing wrong for Kit to state or reiterate his and DAP’s stand vis-a-vis Islamic State. As I have said, DAP should state its stand against an Islamic State in no uncertain terms on the one hand but have to acknowledge and respect the democratic rights of PAS on the other.
But the comments thereafter developed into bashings of Islam, Islamic principles, Islamic administration which to my mind are veering away emotionally from what should be discussed dispassionately i.e. what should DAP do now in the matter of the threat of the installing of an Islamic State in the light of PAS’ declaration or lingering commitment to that end.
My view is that we have to do things within a democratic context or framework. Granting that the present Constitution expressly or impliedly sanctions a secular state, that alone does not mean that PAS cannot aspire to form an Islamic State via the democratic and constitutional process. We have to respect that right.
The next logical question is – how do we politically and astutely thwart that desire or attempt to set up the generally dreaded Islamic State? Not by bashing Islam or PAS for wanting an Islamic State but by the same democratic or constitutional political process.
The comments were to my mind veering dangerously in the direction of unrestrained bashings which undeniably are no good for anyone.
What should be done by the DAP henceforth? Shall we stick to that issue, enough having been said about our disapproval of an Islamic State? I disapprove it just as much.
To my mind, to start off, there are two alternatives for the DAP – stay in the Pakatan or get out. Either way, they still have to have a plan to thwart an Islamic State and at the same time respecting PAS’ aspirations and democratic rights for aspiring an an Islamic State. I am saying that it will be better for the DAP to stay in the Pakatan to be able to do much more for the people.
If DAP is to stay in the Pakatan, then PAS and Islam bashing by DAP supporters has to be ameliorated or restrained or at least kept away behind closed doors. What need to be known by the people is that DAP is strictly against the setting up of an Islamic State. There is no need for non-Muslim scholars to shout to us the evils of Islam and annoying our political partners.
Constitutionally, I think it is very evident that we want a separation of State and Religion. But I am saying that for the sake of harmonious integration and living together, non-Muslims should be knowledgeable about things Islam so that we can draw ourselves closer to understand and be with our Muslim brothers. Whether they reciprocate or not is not the issue. If they do, so much the better. To even begin that integration, we have to stop bashing the other. We have to begin with respect, first maybe unilaterally but later mutually.
I am not discounting the possibility that DAP should opt out of the Pakatan should the going on with PAS becomes really intolerable but I am saying that there is a different season for different things. We have to work on a plan and a strategy to thawrt the Islamic State plan, not by just shouting down or against that plan. In the meanwhile, we should just make our stand clear and go on to serve the people in the best way we can.
There is the problem of the interpretation of the effect of “silence” in the Manifesto with regard to the issue of an Islamic State.
By being quiet about an Islamic State in the manifesto, does it mean or was it the situation or should it be interpreted that PAS has agreed to abandon its aspiration for an Islamic State?
Could it be that DAP, in its desire to make use of PAS to gain an advantage in the election, decided not to press the issue and knowingly let the flame burn in the backburner?
I tend to think that in the inability to resolve this intractable problem, both parties decided to agree to disagree and not to mention anything to do with an Islamic State in the manifesto until after the fruits of the election has been obtained in hand. Nothing wrong with that but if that is the case, it would be wrong, in fact unprincipled, to put the blame wholly on PAS.
Whatever it is, I think we should just get on with carrying out the people’s mandate instead of quarrelling with each other. It is a matter of political moves and strategies, not some high strung roadside arguments and disputations. to resolve this Islamic State issue.
It is all good to work with PAS for the common goal of good governance and democracy – I have nothing against such common effort per se – but if there were a deal in the Manifesto not to bring up Islamic state, then stick to it…..When PAS reneges, tell it off publicly because there should be no appeasement of any party to the other, and where one is wrong it should be told so. It is the appeasement – and deference – by Gerakan MIC and MCA of UMNO and what it pushed that had resulted in the interests that Gerakan MIC and MCA were supposed to represent, being sacrificed and marginalized.
Real collaboration for longer term comes from equal standing and respect and that includes telling the other party off publicly when it is wrong.
There is no basis to assume that PAS has less interest in collaborating with DAP than DAP with PAS on common goals, is there for DAP to give way or seek quiet consultations when the other is wrong or breaks faith?
Appeasement and deference to the other side when it is wrong does not serve the Common Cause – it only emboldens the defaulting party to be more assertive and aggressive to push its own agenda that you have not agreed to, and my marginal gains step by step erode you until you have no platform to stand on.
My thinking is that Kit should stand firm and put his foot down every time the other partner commits a material transgression. To give in is interpreted as weakness on DAP’s part, it means you need PAS more than it needs you for the common cause and that is why you have to think of its feelings and sensitivities more than the other party, yours.
I guess my main point of difference with Godfather is I don’t like his approach that, rightly or wrongly, I interpret as appeasement and encouragement of PAS and its agenda, which I also don’t think help the common cause of Pakatan Rakyat in the longer term.
I don’t think that there is any appeasement or encouragement of what the PAS duo have said. Kit was right to make or reaffirm his stand. All of us who are opposed to an Islamic State should do likewise, in public if necessary. But for the sake of cooperation towards achieving common objectives, we must not be seen or heard to be bashing each other in an unrestrained way. Kit would not have done that. For that matter, Jeffrey whose sharp and analytical mind and impeccable command of English and erudition of political thoughts hold my greatest respect, would not do that either.
I think Godfather is not an advocate of an Islamic State either. But some of the commentators seem to have veered dangerously in the direction of commenting on the intricacies of Islam which would open up further unrestrained, uncalled for remarks and comments and which directly or indirectly would affect the good works of Pakatan which are now beginning to gain momentum by annoying the followers of Islam and by tainting DAP as anti-Islam rather than just anti-Islamic State.
As propagandists of freedom of religion and religious beliefs, we must not be even seen to be belittling any religion. Of course, neither DAP nor Kit nor Jeffrey has that tendency but we must be wary of the veering into that dangerous direction by the commentators.
DAP wants a secular state whereas PAS wants an Islamic state. They have their rights to hold on to their ideologists. This is what democracy is all about. Whatever policies made by PR, it must be accepatable by its supporters irrespective of their races and faith.
It will be very good if all leaders pay a state visit to Kelantan and see how the state has been run that even after so many years, the people of Kelantan still prefer PAS to govern rather than BN. There must be something which draws the support of the people.
DAP & PKR can sent some leaders privately to Kota Bahru to ascertain whether the non Muslims are living comfortably there and see whether PAS had forced things onto them.
There again, PAS must listen to majority of people in Perak and Selangor and Kedah that the people voted not becuz PAS is very good but becuz BN is so DAMN bad. Your votes gathered are nore of protest votes of BN rahter than the pull PAS have. The same goes to DAP & PKR.
Do not allow the victories go to your head and start destroying all that the people had given you. Otherwise, you will then be the worst among the evils and BN be the less of all evils.
Be LIBERAL and think macro for the rakyat rather than your own personal agendas which here is more of your party’s ideology. It has shown that now, rakyat can trenscend across all borders and give their votes to any party except for BN.
Keep and safeguard this trust and chance and you shall be the government of us all for a long long time.
Appeasement ? Did I not say that I disagree with the rather inflammatory comments of PAS Youth ? We must also understand that the Muslims do things differently from the non-Muslims. In this particular case, PAS leaders do not publicly condone or condemn the words of PAS Youth but it does not mean that Nik Aziz or Hadi did nothing behind the scenes. What is needed is behind the scenes “table-thumping” as one commentator said. Jeffrey also questioned why Anwar didn’t condemn the words of PAS Youth. Why should he do so publicly ?
I’m glad that HB Lim and others have said that PAS has every right to promote its Islamic ideals. To demand a retraction from PAS is childish, outdated and ignorant – it is akin to asking for the impossible.
This is a historic opportunity for us to show that we can do better than the imploding BN – we can either seize the opportunity now or forever remain in Opposition and watch the BN have another 50 years of stealing from the taxpayers. Make up your mind.
Saudara LKS,
As the iron is still hot just after the GE, we would like to see some more ceramahs…big size ones….to introdcue your newly elected MPs & ADUNs and we want to hear from them their full committment towards working for the rakyat.
You can use this opportunity to explain DAPs stand on Pakatan Rakyat and allow us the rakyat to know more of what had happened since March 8.
We want more….TQ
Even a person like Syncbasher83,who is clearly against any proclamation that Bolehland is secular, is prepared to accept that we go with neither a secular nor an Islamic definition, and instead let the interpretation of the federal constitution prevail on a case-by-case basis.
Do you see a Chinese Mentri Besar dressed in Malay baju, Malay sampin and the tengkolok and Malay keris raising both hands to his forehead to the Sultan in a symbolic gesture of deference and display of undivided loyalty to king and country?
I don’t.
Very difficult situation…
Even if PAS openly declare tat it will drop its islamic state agenda, there will be backlash from its supporters as well.
But if they don’t do it, the situation might get worse.
Dear uncle kit, please try to resolve this issue as peaceful as possible. I’m sure that the PAS leaders are rational and considerate. Let’s tolerate and come up with a mutual solution.
Thanks and good luck!
PAS has every rights to fight for an Islamic State and I have every rights to defend the constitution of Malaysia so the country remains as secular state with Islam as her official religion.
Dawsheng:
Try and have the judiciary reformed first before you worry about your rights under the Constitution. If you now say that PAS has every right to fight for an Islamic state, then why did you demand that PAS must retract its Islamic state agenda in various threads ? Did you not say that you would rather have Perak and Selangor revert to BN rule if PAS does not retract its Islamic agenda ?
The next crisis will come when Anwar delivers his 30+ defections from BN to form the next federal government, and then both PAS and DAP start to throw spanners into the works.
Sigh. I guess we are not ready to govern.
If UMNO, MCA and MIC are a marriage of convenience, what is it about the PKR, DAP and PAS that makes it different but for the fact that Indian representation is spread thin in two of them and that Malay representation has been increased, and that there is now two Malay parties (though one only predominantly Malay in membership but is unlikely to remain so in the long run) with one that makes no apologies for being openly Islamic?
Do you think you or your children and they and their children will live to see Article 3 of the Federal Constitution 1957 being deleted along with other constitutional provisions that refer to religion?
I don’t.
President of PAS, Abdul Hadi bin Awang, made it clear in today’s China Press that PAS would not raise the issue of Islamic state and Hudud laws in its co-operation with DAP and PKR lest it causes a split within PR. Although it is true that PAS political ideology is to establish an Islamic state, yet political reality would not permit such ideology to be materialized. Abdul Hadi bin Awang wanted to have sincere and close co-operation with DAP and PKR.
He also said that strengthening of Islamic concepts and principles for a particular state would depend on the situation in that state. For example, the major population in Kedah are Muslims and PAS would not rule out bringing gambling under control among the Muslims (such action would not apply to non-Muslims). The situation in Perak, however, is different, PAS would not control gambling and nightlife in that state.
He said in order to establish an Islamic state, one has to do it through the democratic process and through amending the country’s constitution. PAS will only establish an Islamic state with the support of the people – that is no simple task! Kelantan already had the Islamic laws and Hudud laws passed but the federal government did not accept them.
He said the Chinese communities need not worry about Islamic state and Hudud laws as the two are only targeted at Muslims.
He said the meeting held by DAP, PKR and PAS two weeks ago had unanimously agreed that PR would be collectively led by the three parties and for this reason, PAS would not be the chief party or “Big Brother” within the PR coalition.
Abdul Hadi bin Awang would advise PAS grassroots and leaders not to raise issues that could split the PR coalition or issues that make non-Muslims worry, or they (grassroots and leaders) will be disciplined. He pointed out that the recent remarks on “Islamic government”, made by Kelantan’s deputy MB, represented the latter’s personal view – it was merely a misunderstanding.
I think DAP should give itself a minimum level of trust in its co-operation PAS. Pulling out of PR will not help DAP to achieve much politically – DAP, PKR and PAS need one another to fight its common foe.
Nik Aziz Selar Kenyataan Karpal Singh Perlekeh Usaha Bangunkan Islam
Posted on Sunday, April 06 @ 15:31:14 MYT by greenboc
Mursyidul Am PAS Datuk Nik Abdul Aziz Nik Mat menganggap kenyataan Pengerusi DAP Karpal Singh meminta agar PAS tidak memasang angan-angan untuk menunjangi Pakatan Rakyat kerana khuatir ia akan menegakkan negara Islam, sebagai memperlecehkan usaha membangunkan Islam oleh kerajaan Kelantan.
Nik Aziz yang juga Menteri Besar Kelantan meminta Karpal Singh memberikan bukti di mana kelemahan PAS yang telah mentadbir Kelantan mengikut acuan Islam selama 18 tahun itu.
“Saya nak tahu apa tak kena Islam dan apa lagi yang dia (Karpal Singh) tak setuju Islam. Semua masyarakat bukan Islam gembira berada di bawah kami (PAS),” katanya kepada pemberita selepas menerima lawatan Duta Besar Jepun ke Malaysia, Masahiko Horie di pejabatnya di sini, hari ini.
Minggu lalu, Timbalan Menteri Besar Kelantan Datuk Ahmad Yaakob berkata PAS wajar menjadi tunjang kepada Pakatan Rakyat yang dibentuk oleh parti- parti pembangkang sekiranya ia mahu merealisasikan impian menubuhkan sebuah negara Islam.
Ahmad berkata impian itu akan hanya tercapai akhirnya jika semua pihak memahami dan menerima konsep Islam yang sebenar, yang merupakan agama untuk semua umat manusia.
Nik Aziz menjemput Karpal Singh melawat Kelantan dan melihat sendiri pembangunan di negeri itu yang dibangunkan mengikut acuan Islam.
“Saya tanggung kos penginapan hotel. Tak payah jumpa saya pun tidak apa, jumpalah masyarakat bukan Islam di Kelantan dan lepas itu beritahu apa yang tidak baik dengan Islam ini,” katanya.
Nik Aziz berkata sistem kewangan Islam yang diterapkan kerajaan Kelantan juga telah diikitraf oleh pakar-pakar ekonomi seluruh dunia dan sejak Kelantan di perintah PAS banyak penambahbaikan telah dilakukan termasuk penghapusan riba dan mewujudkan pajak gadai Islam.
“Bukan itu sahaja, masyarakat bukan Islam juga diberi hak dengan dilantik sebagai penyelia masyarakat dan saya nak tanya dimana tidak baiknya apa yang kami buat ini,” katanya.
Beliau berkata masyarakat bukan Islam juga tidak pernah dipaksa untuk memeluk agama Islam dan sejak penerapan nilai Islam oleh PAS itulah menyebabkan kaum lain merasa selesa di bawah pemerintahan PAS.
Mengulas kunjungan Masahiko itu, Nik Aziz berkata duta itu tertarik dengan kerajinan wanita Kelantan mencari nafkah yang berbeza di tempat lain.
“Saya jemput duta itu untuk melawat Pasar Besar Siti Khadijah dan Pasar Borong Wakaf Che Yeh untuk melawat dari dekat kerajinan wanita Kelantan ini,” katanya.
— BERNAMA
“Try and have the judiciary reformed first before you worry about your rights under the Constitution. If you now say that PAS has every right to fight for an Islamic state, then why did you demand that PAS must retract its Islamic state agenda in various threads ? Did you not say that you would rather have Perak and Selangor revert to BN rule if PAS does not retract its Islamic agenda ?”
Godfather, as I said I have every rights to defend the Constitution of Malaysia and I am all for judiciary reform. For those who are interested in what I wrote about PAS in various threads can scroll back and read, I have provided the same answers for the same questions numerous time. Thank you.
This is what I see.
I see Malays now divided, but will re-unite to be even stronger. Opinions differ as to how long that process of healing will take. But eventually they will get there.
There is a new name to the political game. The old game known as race-based politics is given a new lease of life and is now known as race-based politics.
Do you see any difference? I don’t.
Kit, I suggest before you make any statement, feel free to post question first. In the past during the war, the General say “Attack!” based on his experience and his bravery. But it is not working today not because the General no longer brave, because the playing field is unleveled! Always use the technology to your advantage. We trust your decision and leadership only when the situation is equal across all parties. Thanks.
On the one had I agree with HB Lim on allowing PAS to promote their Islamic values. On the other I can also understand, and support, Kit takes a stand on their political view point on this issue. It is true that the rakyat has voted for Pakatan Rakyat for a change. But I think many non-malays did not expect Pakatan Rakyat to have won big at the state level. So I think it is only right for Kit to openly declare his stand on this, so that voters, including Muslims, who have given votes to Pakatan Rakyat do not feel threatened by potential agenda from PAS on Islamic state issues, or feel ill represented by their parties, with “mis-informed” information received before election. I definitely would like to give Pakatan Rakyat a chance prove themselves as a viable alternative to BN. And I’m not afraid of PAS agenda as long as we have a democratic process in place, at the state level as well. So my view is it is not prudent for PAS to denounce its Islamic state aim at this stage, if they ever will. Even in PAS-ruled state like Kedah, I would like to see public consultation on whether people want their state to be run like Kelantan. Lastly, I really enjoy reading debates on this thread, particularly coming from HB Lim and Jeoffrey, among others. Isn’t it great to have open civil debates about important issues?
Good to see some voice of moderation coming into this blog. :)
I suspect the majority who read and say nothing are largely moderates. This bodes well for the coalition for they can then focus on swimming with the tide that is sweeping us to a NEW MALAYSIA.
Correct thinking, correct speech, and correct action can only lead us to the DAWN OF A NEW MALAYSIA :D
to all, why must be afraid of so called hudud if you did not do anything wrong…all this islamicphobia is nonsense, i as a malay muslim will stand firm to islam tenet but we are also a rationale,tolarable people,pls see the larger picture.what happen was all the misinformation about the islam are due to Umno not practising the true islam.
taken from Kickdefella blog
2008 Tahun Merawat UMNO
April 6, 2008 · 3 Comments
Ku Li, di tuduh penyebab kekalahan UMNO
Abdullah Ahmad Badawi melemparkan tuduhan bahawa Tengku Razaleigh Hamzah adalah punca utama kekalahan teruk UMNO di Kelantan. Mungkin Abdullah perlu mengeluarkan bukti dan bukan sekadar melempar tuduhan.
Selepas perletakkan jawatan Tun Dr. Mahathir Mohamed, Tengku Razaleigh telah disisih terus dari percaturan politik UMNO Kelantan. Tengku Razaleigh telah menerima hakikat tersebut. Teraju UMNO Kelantan di sandang oleh Annuar Musa dan menjelang pilihanranya, nama Bekas Bakal Menteri Besar Kelantan, Awang ‘Mr. Cohiba’ Adek di julang-julang ke pucuk sana. Tengku Razaleigh tidak lagi kelihatan di majlis-majlis penting di Kelantan seperti di Majlis Pelancaran ECER peringkat Kelantan, sedangkan jasa Tengku Razaleigh amat besar kepada UMNO Kelantan dan juga kepada Petronas. Ini adalah jelas menunjukkan usaha menyingkirkan Ku Li semakin ketara.
Tetapi apa yang tidak jelas ialah bagaimana Tengku Razaleigh berperanan untuk memastikan kekalahan teruk UMNO di Kelantan?
Ku Li tidak punya kuasa dan tidak terlibat didalam pergerakan wang dan jentera kempen UMNO Kelantan untuk beliau sabotaj peluang UMNO. Ku Li juga tidak pernah membuat sebarang kenyataan yang boleh menyebabkan penyokong UMNO membelakangkan UMNO. Oleh yang demikian, sebagai Ketua Bahagian UMNO Gua Musang, Tengku hanya melakukan apa yang diamanahkan kepadanya, iaitu pertahankan kerusi Parlimen Gua Musang. Tengku menunaikan amanah itu walaupun turut tercedera akibat tsunami politik yang meratah hampir separuh majoriti yang diperolehinya pada tahun 2004.
Tuduhan Abdullah jelas membuktikan Abdullah masih kaki tidur yang tidak sedar diri dan tidak pernah mahu mengaku salah. Prinsip politik Abdullah ialah, semua orang buat salah melainkan Abdullah sendiri. Kalau difikirkan, logik juga percaturan politik Abdullah ini, kerana dia asyik tidur jadi orang yang tidur tidak mungkin buat salah sebab dia tidak membuat apa-apa melainkan tidur.
Kekalahan teruk UMNO Kelantan sudah diramalkan oleh pemerhati bebas yang menumpukan perhatian kepada suasana politik di Kelantan. Sebelum penamaan calon, pemerhati bebas meramalkan PAS akan menang 30 daripada 45 kerusi Dewan Undangan Negeri Kelantan. Ini diperkukuhkan lagi apabila senarai calon-calon BN diumumkan oleh Annuar Musa yang menyaksikan calon-calon DUN diisi oleh pemimpin-pemimpin simpanan manakala pemimin besar bertempiaran melarikan diri ke Parlimen termasuk Jeneralnya sendiri.
Selepas penamaan calon, bagaimanapun, kegusaran mula melanda apabila jentera BN dilihat lembab dan tidak berfungsi dengan sempurna walaupun disuntik dengan semangat baru dengan perletakkan banting-banting Awang Adek, sebagai Bakal Menteri Besar Kelantan di setiap tiang-tiang letrik di Kelantan.
Siapakah yang memilih Awang Adek? Adakah Tengku Razaleigh yang memilih Awang Adek dan seterusnya tindakkan memalu gendang mengumumkan Awang Adek sebagai Bakal Menteri Besar baru mengakibatkan UMNO kalah teruk di Kelantan? Atau Awang Adek adalah pilihan yang dibuat oleh Abdullah atas nasihat Dato’ Seri Panglima Annuar Musa?
Menjelang hari pembuangan undi, pemerhati bebas dan Global Media Channel berkongsi ramalan dengan pihak media massa yang membuat liputan di Kelantan dengan menunjukkan statistik bahawa PAS akan menang di 32 kerusi DUN, tambahan 2 kerusi DUN berbanding ramalan sebelum penamaan calon.
Tiga bekas Exco PAS Kelantan
32 kerusi DUN ini adalah hasil kerja keras Jawatankuasa Pilihanraya Negeri (JPN) yang di ketuai oleh “Abang Tah”, bekas Ahli Parlimen Rantau Panjang bersama anak-anak buahnya yang bertungkus lumus selama hampir 4 tahun dan jentera pilihanraya di peringkat peti-peti undi.
JPN telah memain peranan penting didalam membersihkan senarai pemilih setiap kali ianya diedarkan. JPN juga telah bertungkus lumus mendaftar pemilih baru dan mendapatkan segala maklumat-maklumat tentang pemilih diperingkat DUN. Selain itu, disaat-saat akhir, JPN telah memainkan peranan penting menyelesaikan isu-isu yang belum selesai di beberana DUN yang bermasalah.
Masalah bagi UMNO Kelantan sebenarnya berkurangan selepas PAS mengumumkan senarai calon-calonnya kerana sekurang-kurangnya 4 DUN yang dimenangi PAS pada 2004 diwakili oleh calon-calon yang boleh menjadi liabiliti dalam PRU12. Bagaimanapun UMNO gagal untuk mengguna-pakai permasalahan ini sehingga ke saat akhir.
Dato’ Takiyuddin bersama Ustaz Mohd Amar, yang hangat disebut sebagai pengganti Tok Guru
Tsunami Politik hanya menyumbangkan 7 kerusi kepada pakatan PAS-PKR bagi DUN di Kelantan. Tsunami Politik ini di bawa menerusi beratus-ratus buah bas sewa khas dan beribu-ribu buah kenderaan yang di taja oleh Pemuda BN menerusi kempen “Pade Doh” mereka. Usaha besar-besaran membawa pulang pengundi-pengundi yang bermaustautin di luar Kelantan ini jelas memberi kesan negatif kepada UMNO Kelantan. Kepulangan mereka hanya menambah derita UMNO Kelantan.
Saya masih ingat apabila Dato’ Husam melahirkan kegusarannya kepada saya tentang perancangan BN untuk membawa pengundi-pengundi yang bermastautin di luar Kelantan. Saya bersyukur kerana jawapan saya dua minggu sebelum pembubaran Dewan Rakyat itu terbukti benar seperti analisa saya.
Husam, menurut Media Massa hampir diketepikan akibat ‘pergolakan’ dalaman
Saya melihat dua faktor utama berhubung sentimen pengundi-pengundi yang dimaksudkan ini, pertama, mereka ini yang bermastautin di bandaraya-bandaraya besar adalah mangsa paling kejam rejim ekonomi Pak Lah dan mempunyai lebih sebab untuk tidak mengundi BN dari pengundi yang sedia menetap di Kelantan.
Faktor kedua adalah, kebanyakan pengundi yang bermastautin di bandaraya-bandaraya besar ini lebih celik IT dan mempunyai akses kepada media alternatif. Media alternatif telah dijuarai oleh barisan Pembangkang dan barisan anti Pak Lah. Jadi, mereka ini lebih matang didalam penilaian mereka berbanding pengundi tempatan yang bergantung kepada media arus perdana.
Berdasarkan analisa ini adalah sukar untuk menelan tuduhan Pak Lah bahawa UMNO Kelantan kecundang kerana permainan politik Tengku Razaliegh. Sebaliknya, sehari sebelum hari pembuangan ini, saya di maklumkan oleh seorang kenalan media. Bahawa Ku Li sendiri menyatakan kegusarannya bahawa BN akan tewas besar di Kelantan. Ku Li berkata, BN akan hanya dapat tidak lebih dari 6 kerusi di Kelantan. Ramalan Ku Li ini bukan berdasarkan kerjanya untuk sabotaj UMNO Kelantan tetapi berdasarkan pengamatannya dan sensitivitinya terhadap keadaan semasa yang melampaui batas fanatik ahli parti.
Sebahagian dari pengundi yang pulang dengan ehsan BN
Tuduhan Pak Lah ternyata membuktikan dia masih gagal bangkit dari lenanya. Pak Lah masih memikirkan bahawa dia menerima mandat ‘besar’ walau ‘sedikit’ kurang dari 2/3 dan terlupa bahawa dia kehilangan negerinya bersama 3 negeri lainnya kepada Pembangkang.
Kalau Najib pernah mengumumkan bahawa tahun 2008 adalah Tahun Merawat Kelantan, nampaknya sekarang Najib harus umumkan kepada Pak Lah bahawa Tahun 2008 adalah tahun merawat UMNO.
Ahli-ahli UMNO dan kepimpinan UMNO perlu menilai semula kesetiaan mereka kepada UMNO atau kepada Pak Lah. Permasalahan besar di dalam UMNO ialah yang pertamanya, masalah kepimpinan yang lemah. Kedua masalah ketiadaan pemimpim pelapis yang dipercayai oleh rakyat dan yang ketiganya, masalah Pak Lah yang terlalu mempercayai menantunya. Pak Lah ternyata seorang yang bodoh, jadi senanglah dia mempercayai menantunya yang lulusan Oxford itu. Tetapi adakah barisan ahli UMNO juga sama tidak pandai dengan Pak Lah?
UMNO ada masa tidak lebih 60 hari untuk merawat dirinya sementara mereka masih menerajui kerajaan Malaysia. Menjelang pertengahan tahun, UMNO akan berdepan dengan pemilihan peringkat cawangan, disusuli dengan Bahagian dan akhirnya pemilihan pucuk pimpinan di peringkat pusat. Ternyata, berdasarkan pengalaman lalu, tempoh enam bulan terakhir 2008 adalah tempoh di mana pemimpin UMNO tidak akan berfungsi sebagai pemerintah negara dengan baik kerana masing-masing terlalu komitted mempertahankan kedudukan masing-masing dan menghabiskan mungkin puluhan juta untuk tujuan tersebut.
Sekiranya UMNO gagal merawati diri mereka di dalam 60 hari ini, maka, rakyat Malaysia perlu menerima hakikat bahawa Negara Malaysia akan di pimpin secara kawalan jauh oleh pemimpin-pemimpin UMNO yang sibuk dengan kecamukan politik dalaman dan perjuangan menyelamatkan masa depan politik masing-masing.
Walau apapun pandangan massa, UMNO perlu diberi pengiktirafan untuk merawat diri nya, cuma persoalannya, haruskah UMNO dirawat dari dalam Kerajaan atau di luar Kerajaan? Hanya senario politik semasa yang akan menentukannya. Dan ianya tertakluk kepada angka 30 di Dewan Rakyat
If by “new” you mean “different” then I’m sorry I’ll have to part company, my friend.
Since 8th March, I have had occasion to mention to two PAS MPs that they should not mistake votes for PAS by Chinese and Indians at the 12th GE as a vote of support for PAS.
The majority of non-Malays, and a great many Malays, especially in the urban constituencies, voted for PAS because they had simply had it with BN.
That is not a vote of support.
I had said to those two PAS MPs that if PAS wanted to turn those ‘protest’ votes into ’support’ votes, PAS needed to do much work to allay concerns about their Islamic state agenda that still troubles many in civil society.
Today, NST reports that Pas Youth head Musaddak Ahmad had said that Pas should become the backbone of Pakatan Rakyat to realise the objective of forming an Islamic state.
To this, the same report has it that PKR vice-president Mohamad Azmin Ali said that Pas had the right to express these views.
Yes, PAS has the right to express its views.
So do the rakyat.
We did on 8th March and we can do it again.
http://harismibrahim.wordpress.com/
And what’s the way to “do it”, Dawsheng ? Let Perak and Selangor revert to BN rule, as you have suggested elsewhere ? Let Pakatan Rakyat fail in its infancy ?
DAP must also understand that many votes from Muslims and others that gave them those seats do not represent support for the DAP. They were anti-BN votes as well.
However, there are many of us who were pleasantly surprised that the anti-BN voters could give rise to unprecedented opposition rule in a number of states, and we dared believe that this is the opportunity to get to the next level – the wresting of control of federal government from the BN.
Perhaps our optimism was misplaced. Pakatan Rakyat is not ready to rule. Perhaps we had gone overboard in our anti-BN sentiment.
HB Lim says: “This country will be great again without the BN and our first mission now is to wipe out the BN, not to be at loggerhead with PAS.”
I don’t think so. We hated BN, but no matter what, we need BN to be around for a long long time and if needed, be restored to power if PR can’t manage. We must assume the possibilities that BN can reform itself and PR can turn bad some time in the future.
At loggerhead we must if PAS continues with its insistence for Islamic state. Why take such a risk? Can anybody show me how Islamic state works? Where is the successful empirical evidence? Which country has become developed and successful through the Islamic path? Please don’t come back quoting me experiences in the 6th, 7th or 8th centuries. I want some recent examples, say the last three four hundred years. I just want to reiterate that we are NOT bashing Islam, far from it. We just want some assurance how Islamic state works? Please don’t for a minute assume that the moment some political parties carry with them religious credentials, they must be holier, more humane, and cleaner. No way. All political parties are subjected to abuse, corruption and misdeeds.
Much as the cooperation between DAP & PAS is desired, there are some practical limitations to this, going forward from what yhsiew said. I would like you all to consider the following realities.
For example, “Abdul Hadi bin Awang, made it clear in today’s China Press that PAS would not raise the issue of Islamic state and Hudud laws” but by actions “Kelantan already had the Islamic laws and Hudud laws passed but the federal government did not accept them” – yhsiew
Now is the DAP going to be neutral or support BN’s federal government’s non acceptance of Islamic laws and Hudud laws passed in Kelantan against its own coalition partner PAS??? Based on DAP’s defense of secular constitution it ought logically to support BN’s federal government’s non acceptance of Islamic laws and Hudud laws passed in Kelantan. Can DAP afford to be silent and ambivalent on such an issue?
The problem lies in Hadi’s approach. He keeps on saying that the strengthening of Islamic concepts and principles for a particular state would depend on the situation in that state – meaning the demographic composition whether majority are muslims.
By his logic, PAS would not rule out bringing gambling under control or extension of hudud among the Muslims in (say) Kedah or even Terengganu (in the event that the latter comes under Opposition’s control).
This is problematic for DAP (in terms of collaboration) because of two reasons.
First even though Hadi does not by words talk about the Islamic state, however by actions and deeds, he does intensify islamisation by curbing gambling, nightlife in the state and introducing hudud in the state controlled by Opposition, and it is actions that count not words, and it is no comfort that he achieves the Islamic state backdoor by action by not describing the action as part of Islamic state initiatives – what is the stand DAP going to take if this becomes a public issue and BN Federal government does not support Hadi’s moves ? Who would DAP side?
Secondly, Hadi’s premise that whether or not PAS would strengthen Islamic concepts and principles (controlling gambling, night life and even promulgating Hudud) for a particular state controlled by Opposition depends on whether that state has Muslims as majority basically misses the point that it is DAP’s position that these initiatives consistent with the Islamic state or inconsistent with the secular premises of our constitution should not be embarked upon in any state – independent of, separate from and irrelevant to the issue of its demographic composition, whether populated by majority Muslims or majority non Muslims.
It is DAP’s position, as I understand it, that such pro Islamic state initiatives like Hudud or curbing of night life etc are not consistent with modern and pluralistic Malaysia and not suitable for all Malaysians including Muslim Malay Malaysians. It has never been DAP’s position that strengthening Islamic concepts and principles al Islamic theocratic style is OK or not OK depending on the demographics of the state concerned whether muslim or non muslim majority.
If Hadi takes this line then it is straining the collaboration because the selective application of PAS ideology (by deeds even if words don’t describe them) on a state by state basis depending on its demographics is NOT something the DAP has agreed to.
And if this becomes a public issue in which BN at Federal level takes a stand contrary to PAS/Hadi, what is DAP to do and whom DAP will have to side? Surely for DAP’s credibility, it cannot keep silent hoping not to be drawn to take a position.
What happens to the Pakatan Rakyat collaboration then if PAS/Hadi proceeds on ‘back door’ efforts to work towards the Islamic state, beginning in selective basis as above discussed???
I think it will impose a tremendous strain on the Opposition’s collaboration.
Godfather says: “Those who say that everyone has the right to agree to disagree, and therefore we should carry on with the mandate given by the people. No fighting in public. HB Lim and I are in this category.”
May I know how does PR carry out the mandate of the people when the parties concerned have the right to agree to disagree. Whose policy gets carry out? Sdr Lim has the right to confront and resolve the statements made by PAS recently, more so we have a PAS MB in Perak which has only 6 state assembly members.
Godfather Says: “Even a person like Syncbasher83,who is clearly against any proclamation that Bolehland is secular, is prepared to accept that we go with neither a secular nor an Islamic definition, and instead let the interpretation of the federal constitution prevail on a case-by-case basis.
Yes on a case by case basis, and may I know where it has led us to so far? Surely you must have heard creeping Islamisation. It is natural for us to feel euphoric and benign in the aftermath of March 8. But the hard reality of politics is never benign and will never be like that, pre or post March 8.
Whose policy ? PAS MB ? We are still fixated over race and individual party, aren’t we ? Why can’t we have a PR policy, a PR MB ? If we can’t get there after rounds of negotiations, threats, table-thumping – all in private – then we go our individual ways.
Why can’t you drop the scare-mongering tactics and the “what if” scenarios ?
Perakman,
Your use of the word “tolerable” is what makes it intolerable.
All this talk about PAS and the Islamic state is really talk about the same issue which is the role of religion (read: Islam) in the life of this ‘nation” which all along has been thought to have a secular constitution until a struggling politician in the twilight of his political career took us along a different direction with his ‘declaration’ about Malaysia being an Islamic state. He himself is a moderate Muslim. Of course, PAS is never a real threat. They are not about to take control of our lives but Islam and Islamic fundamentalism is.
Fifty years is too short in the life of a country and people as a “nation”. We are still no more than a toddler learning to take the first few awkward steps. We are not yet a “nation” but a loose conglomeration of whatever people we choose to call ourselves. We will fall but we will then get back up as all toddlers do when they are learning to walk.
What frightens the non-Malays and non-Muslims most is the direction which a country hitherto regarded as a secular “nation” has been taking recently. Perhaps it is all perception but politics is about perception.
Creeping Islamisation ? If it is wanted by the majority, then it will happen. In 20 years, when the Muslim to non-Muslim ratio moves from the current 65:35 to 80:20, that is already by definition creeping Islamisation. Is reality such a bad thing ?
perakman says: “what happen was all the misinformation about the islam are due to Umno not practising the true islam.”
Yes UMNO not practising true Islam. Tell me who practises true Islam, PAS? PR? who?
You are repeating godfather. Who is telling you that if Muslim is 80% majority, they in fact want Islamic state. Please read Jeffrey’s well articulated piece above, Jeffrey Says: Today at 20: 11.57 (16 minutes ago)
All this aggressive posturing about who is practising true Islam, and who is not, especially coming from a non-Muslim, is unhelpful – even inflammatory.
Limkamput says: “Who is telling you that if Muslim is 80% majority, they in fact want Islamic state. ”
You are telling them they can’t have an Islamic state. I am not saying that they will want one.
godfather, please don’t talk nonsense. If someone can say UMNO is not practising true Islam, I can’t ask who is practising it, including those from PAS, Iran, Iraq etc. What inflammatory?
limkamput,
im so sorry but u have been very silly.
1. would u dare to accept my challenge to list out for us what are the EMPIRICAL EVIDENCES that a secular state is better than an islamic state?
2. would u dare to accept my challenge for the very fact, by giving out an example of a secular-championed nation which outdo and outperform other nations on earth regarding ppl rights, economy achievements, social justice, clean governing etc?
3. would u even dare to accept my challenge to list out for us the EMPIRICAL EVIDENCES that a PAS Kelantan state government has violated its minority rights, suppressing minority beliefs, enforcing so called cruel and injustice laws forced against nonmuslims, political selectiveness, killing ppl, chopping heads and hands, cutting off ppl neck for eating bakuteh or drinking tiger beer, making alot of human bones soup and so on…?
and of course i would say that u will continue to spread all those ‘ifs’, ‘unproven theories’, ‘looks good on paper only secular’ and ‘hawkish anti-islamic state stance’, speculative lies, self-portrait righteousness! u will continue on telling lies and deceit, a never ending fairy tale story for all to hear! Would u even care to ‘jantan’ly accept my challenge and not ‘macam lembu dicucuk teloqnya’ according to Kg Attap ppl. Got balls meh?
Godfather says: “You are telling them they can’t have an Islamic state. I am not saying that they will want one.”
Godfather says: “You are telling them they can’t have an Islamic state. I am not saying that they will want one.”
I am saying secularism should be given the same opportunity from the very beginning when we achieved independence. What I am saying there must be free contest of idea between secularism and Islamic state. Do you think the game being played now is level playing field? This country would have been open, dynamic, cosmopolitan, and progressive. Look at us today, (and we are not even full Islamic yet).
I think LKS has put it very explicitlt -” to bring about changes in the country to restore justice, freedom, democracy and good governance”
PAS has its own political agenda but it is the responsibility of DAP in particular to ensure it is not allowed to hijack the agenda set by the rakyat.
The worst aspect of the Islamic state issue is that the BN[is it UMNO now?] government has declared we are an Islamic nation.
Dear all & good day
I was introduced to this blog a week after PR12 and I found it a nice and fair place. After long reading, I need to express my opinion on this matter where I am a Malay Muslim and a supporter of PAS until now. At least consider my opinion as how a young PAS supporter seen this issue. There are two things in concerns :
1 – Most Non- Muslim (and Muslim) doesn’t know what Islamic State futured by PAS and most Muslim doesn’t know what is democratic socialist Malaysian Malaysia aimed by DAP..
even by the statement below which rise again in the article:
” DAP respects PAS for its ideological position on the Islamic State, but in a modern, multi-racial and multi-religious society where non-Muslims comprise some 40 per cent of the population, and where it is not only non-Malays but Malays who oppose the establishment of an Islamic State, is PAS prepared to be realistic and concede that its Islamic State concept is not a practical or feasible proposition or option for Malaysia? ” LKS, 30 June 01
The statement shows clearly that Islamic State was not understood. The pure first Islamic state Madinah/Medina was formed more than 1400 years ago in a multiracial ( more than 40 race and tribes) and multireligion (Muslim just < 10%) and establish as the beginning of Islamic empire. This original Islamic State is pursue by PAS. This fact itself denies that the concept is not a practical or feasible proposition or option for Malaysia. More to discuss on this matter but this is what PAS belief.
The hudud is only what Muslim must and need to obey as much as other religion need to obey their religion rules and regulation. If DAP in power, do DAP support the FREEDOM of any religion to practice the content of the religion. If true DAP is not carry a vission to oppose any religion practice, the let PAS implement hudud to Muslim as hudud is a major practice of Islam and considered God revealation.
2 – True ideology
For me, it is no wrong at all for PAS keep refreshing the aim of Islamic state as it also no wrong for DAP keep struggling for Malaysian Malaysia because this is the original dreams of the party. If for the sake of PR PAS has to set down the main ideology of Islamic State, me and Pas supporter will not support PAS and there is no more PAS… AND same goes to DAP, if democratic socialist Malaysian Malaysia idea is left behind by DAP, there is no more DAP. This things is the roots of the parties. Both parties seek equalities,rights, many common goals that are far better than BN can give. Working together to overthrow corrupted BN government should not make both party to forget the true roots. DAP should not insist on PAS to left behind Islamic state and same goes for PAS, should not abandon democratic socialist Malaysian Malaysia ideology.
For 18 years with heavy pressure in term of financial aid and other support from federal government, Kelantan PAS Islamic governance method has prooven the fairness to the non-Muslim minority in terms of human rights, equality, social and economic justice as DAP visioned even overall practiced of Islamic state cannot be implemented due to Federal obstruction. Yet Islamic State is proven working idea.
DAP has 5 years to prove the idea of Malaysian Malaysia is working in Penang where Muslim is not as minority as Non Muslim minority in Kelantan. The job is easier than Kelantan since Penang has better source of income than Kelantan. So this is the time to prove the idea.
So for now, people should not forsake the race identity, religion identity and party identity where all aims for good in their own view.
me… proud for being malay, proud for being Muslim, proud for being Malaysian and hope PR will continue the journey
limkamput,
im so sorry but u have been very silly.
1. would u dare to accept my challenge to list out for us what are the EMPIRICAL EVIDENCES that a secular state is better than an islamic state?
2. would u dare to accept my challenge for the very fact, by giving out an example of a secular-championed nation which outdo and outperform other nations on earth regarding ppl rights, economy achievements, social justice, clean governing etc?
3. would u even dare to accept my challenge to list out for us the EMPIRICAL EVIDENCES that a PAS Kelantan state government has violated its minority rights, suppressing minority beliefs, enforcing so called cruel and injustice laws forced against nonmuslims, political selectiveness, killing ppl, chopping heads and hands, cutting off ppl neck for eating bakuteh or drinking tiger beer, making alot of human bones soup and so on…?
and of course i would say that u will continue to spread all those ‘ifs’, ‘unproven theories’, ‘looks good on paper only secular’ and ‘hawkish anti-islamic state stance’, speculative lies, self-portrait righteousness! u will continue on telling lies and deceit, a never ending fairy tale story for all to hear! Would u even care to ‘jantan’ly accept my challenge and not ‘macam lembu dicucuk teloqnya’ according to Kg Attap ppl. Got balls meh?
dont turn blind on my remark here! READ IT!
Yes, Sdr Lim needs that window of opportunity in PR to restore justice, freedom, democracy and good governance for Malaysia. Once this is achieved, secular Malaysian Malaysia will take root and Islamic state will die a natural death.
so many DAP Putras here, narrow minded and fanatic
“Some men see things as they are and say why.
I dream things that never were and say why not.”
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/ekennedytributetorfk.html
syncbasher83
I think the country has violated the basic rights of ppl for religious freedom.
Muslims cannot convert out but non-muslims can convert into muslim.
Is it fair to force a belief to someone who doesn’t believe? And then send them to some funny centres where brainwashing etc is done?
secular against islamic state?
A lot of differences!
One obvious advantage of a secular state is,
Secular state: Anyone can lead
Islamic state: Mostly only Muslims can lead
Reason? Because only Muslims are generally good in Islamic culture whereas, non-Muslims have to learn about Islamic culture to lead.
Enforcing an Islamic state means that one particular religion(race) is mightier than other religions(race).
And if this happens, take a look at Rwanda history yea?
Btw, I think Mahathir declared this country as an Islamic state although by constitution, we are secular.
Because of this, malays start taking out their keris, trying to erase the contributions of the non-malays, ketuanan melayu, (U Must Never Oppose), (Never Ending Policy)
Oh yea, one day if the non-malays have a chance to rule the country, syncbasher83 will come out and object claiming that this country belongs to the malays…etc
If this country is an Islamic state, chances are, we (non-malays) wouldn’t feel that we are belong to this country.
Try thinking in other ppl’s shoes, what if this country is made a christian state, chinese state or indian state?
We are a MULTI RACIAL country and this country belongs to EVERYONE. I thought Islam promotes equality???…or ketuanan Melayu? THINK AGAIN
Sorry if the comments above are disturbing.
Sorry, syncbasher83, watching football now, owah, MID nearly scored against MU again. Saya tak larat lagi lah nak bincang same du. Kamu ini tak paham pun apa itu secularism. Contoh Kelantan sebagai “negara” Islam sangat aneh lah. You think Kelantan very great meh? Apa pencapaian ada? Apa perubahan minda ada? Mundur lah Kelantan.
ric23_my
define fanatic, narrow minded; and
how did you know there are many DAP putras here?
because of one, you wanna punish everyone?
syncbasher83, MID baru score lah, i am happy, Chelsea got chance now.
“Once this is achieved, secular Malaysian Malaysia will take root and Islamic state will die a natural death.”
Yes, how could anybody ignore such prophesy from the new old prophet of Malaysian Malaysia!
Guys, There seem to be many suggestions/views regarding this topic.I am a Malay.What makes you guys/gals think that the silent Malay majority like to have an Islamic state and have Syariah laws for the Muslims.If that happens then the Melays will be THIRD class citizens as we would be told THIS cannot do, THAT cannot do.Go back to the caves.
politicalopinion says: “because of one, you wanna punish everyone?”
may i know who is dap putra?
kickbutt says: “Yes, how could anybody ignore such prophesy from the new old prophet of Malaysian Malaysia!”
kickbutt, my wishful thinking only lah, just like many here, wishing PR partners will work together in harmony.
Observer53,
“What makes you guys/gals think that the silent Malay majority like to have an Islamic state and have Syariah laws for the Muslims.”
They don’t. They disagree about the intrusion of Islamic values into their private lives as non-Muslims. They disagree about the erosion of their fundamental liberties as protected by the country’s constitution.
limkamput,
yg termakan cili lah yg terasa pedasnye wahahaa
Secular or Islamic State is in the vote of future generations. Doesn’t matter if PAS or DAP announce from the top of Petronas Twin Tower, their goal of an Islamic State or Secular State respectively, their relevence to Malaysian society is ultimately what the majority of Malaysians will vote for in the future.
For now, we have voted for them to clean up and if necessary replace the BN system of government.
Now is not the time for them to speculate on each others ulterior motive.
If Malaysia were to be an Islamic State in the future, then DAP will have to find a way to stay relevent in Malaysia in the future. The same applies to PAS. If Malaysians want to remain secular, they will have to find a way to remain relevent to Malaysia.
Such is Democracy, majority rules. Please stop the bickering and get to work.
They don’t. They disagree about the intrusion of Islamic values into their private lives as non-Muslims. They disagree about the erosion of their fundamental liberties as protected by the country’s constitution.
You forget that PAS is not the only Islamic party. The other is UMNO.
qoute:
# Lee Wang Yen Says:
Absolute tolerance is impossible. Acceptance of any system entails the rejection of some other system(s). If we accept the rule of law, we cannot accept anarchism. But we can choose a system that is more tolerant than others. While secular pluralist democracy cannot be absolutely tolerant, it is more tolerant than PAS’ version of Islamic state.
—-for a moment i thought it was true,untill i read further….
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/dward/classes/Anarchy/finalprojects/flores/anarchy.html
and with further research on the subject,and after reading more of Michael Bakunin’s work, i am not so sure.
however, modern, civilised idea of democracy offers a “protection from the tyrany of the majority” and that,…is what we all need to look into,and uphold,and defend if needs to be.
A person who support blindly and against blindly … can considered as DAP Putra …
As an example … if Teresa Kok ask them whether she look like Britney Spear, they will say YES … coz they are blind … they dont look into the matter rationally …
secular state everybody can rule?
common really fairy tale lah.
secular state of course secularist only can rule.
those islamist opposition must jail them, they r terorist, let them die naturally inside jail (gotta use this words since one DAP putra use it)
nobody can specifically pray onto God they believe specifically in the public
wearing scarf? tell them to built their own school!
her ex-husband didnt gave her nafkah? its okay just go to civil court like everyone else. no need to ask for fasakh. no good.must b secular.
I am being sarcastic with this group of wishful thinking people. If you read my earlier posting, we are already feeling lousy even the country is not half Islamic. I just can’t imagine the wishes of this group of naive fellows becomes reality.
sorry, we are already feeling lousy even the country is half Islamic….
as a Muslim elaborate:
malay is not muslim and muslim is not malay, that for sure. Keris, Ketuanan Melayu nothing to do with muslim, not a single word in Holy verse Quran state the word malay..
For start, when a person decide firmly with fully understand to enter a group, society, religion, nation they must adhere to the rule of the group. It is very wrong to enter the group, did wrong according to the law of the group then escaped from punishment according the group’s law by entering another group. Same logic appliy. Can we as a citizen of Malaysia proven guilty as drug dealer escape death by apllying to changes citizenship to US or other where no death penalty. Same goes to Islam, is is clear before converts to islam this rule of murtad,.. it is the choice of people to convert or not but once convert, the islamic rule apply..
as I understand
I do not share the optimism that runs through this thread. The Malays are now divided but will unite and become a stronger force.
Charleston Heston who played Moses died this morning. Malaysia’s Moses will emerge to open up the sea but instead of leading his people to the Promised Land, he paves the way for his enemies to go through to other lands.
Over the course of the next fifty years the trickle of non-Malays now opting for a better life abroad and in foreign lands will grow to a wave. Kit’s generation will fade away, taking their values with them.
Well, for you, the glass is half empty, for others it is still half full. For a long time I shared your view. May be March 8 has given me some hope, but I am at least not as fanatical as some here.
Just bought my copy of SinChew this morning.
Breaking news with the interview Saudara Hadi Awang.
True enough PAS have never let go the vision or more accurate words- mission to form Islamic state! Kindly refer to my article on Pakatan Rakyat posted yesterday.
Will not elaborate more on this but personally I salute Saudara Hadi for his courage to explain the inner parts of PAS vision.
Is good for PAS to clear the feeling of non-Muslim of Rakyat Malaysia as Islamic state formation is against the current secular constitutional. Certainly it needs 2/3 majority to amend.
However from the scenario of 12th GE parliament result is unlikely in the near future to have single party that will hold dominant numbers.
Malaysia is most likely moving toward mature politic as in Europe. Left wing or Right wing.
As for non-Muslim, they need have more understanding how Malaysian constitutional works.
More details, kindly visit
http://tabletalks-susuteh.blogspot.com/
quoted for nonsence:
# limkamput Says:
Well, for you, the glass is half empty, for others it is still half full. For a long time I shared your view. May be March 8 has given me some hope, but I am at least not as fanatical as some here.
—the glass has always been full,half full of air, half full of water. air and water are not nothing-ness.
One question, for the case of Lina Joy, she is considered an apostate, and what is the punishment for “murtad”, under Islamic Law ?
Does she really have a choice, since she was born to a Muslim family, the only time she made a choice based on her on conscience, she is subjected to criminal punishment under Syariah Law.
What what is the punishment for “murtad” under Syariah Law, I might ask ?
Do we want Malaysian (ex-Muslim) to have to mengadu nasib overseas, just because her own country is unable to accept her choice of religion ?
Will a PAS version of Islamic State be as open minded to the freedom of religion, as in the case of an apostasy ?
kickbutt,
do u really think the malaysians overseas r having a good life?
they can’t find good job cos ppl r racist there.it is the same, no promotion etc.
i rather give it a try here in my own mother land.
islamic land? we are standing on it, perak rules, only muslim can be menteri besar, how ridiculous. and wtf is equality in muslim rules. same thing, u think a black man can be a president in USA. even obama is half white.
and now if pas MB can’t do a proper job, the next election, they will be out forever.
i think we r not being optimism, we r just hoping for the best. wat choice do we have?
we just have to keep trying and trying. maybe persistency will pay off one day.
mmm as I know death penalty and i don’t think Islamic State pursue by Pas will tolerate this case.. correct me PAS leader is I’m wrong.. just to be sincere
born Muslim.. nothing can be done according to Islamic law…
just like born malay.. cannot be not malay, born chinese cannot be not chinese.. just there is no such apostasy law in malay race or chinese race….
Not that I want to dwell with “what ifs” for their own sake but not too long down the road it is well nigh possible that the following situation could happen – supposing Hadi/PAS continue(s) to say, no Islamic state (unless the people in Malaysia democratically want it) but meanwhile for a muslim majority state like Kedah controlled by Opposition, in which state exco is predominantly PAS’s representatives, we (PAS) would like to consider implementing the following Islamic concepts and principles for Muslims in the state only:-
1. imposition of hudud (whether or not BN’s Federal government supports);
2. social justice like that once proposed by Nik Aziz that “less beautiful” women should be hired as civil servants, since a beautiful woman has been blessed to be able to get a rich husband”;
3. sex-segregated queues sexes in supermarket or in movies, segregation of audiences into different cinema halls for different sexes;
4. form morality auxiliary police to scour the parks for khalwat amongst muslim persons.
Just a simple hypothetical case, if this happens, what ought to be DAP’s appropriate response within the framework of Pakatan Rakyat collaboration ? (To oppose or to go along or to keep quiet???)
Will the Pakatan Rakyat support amendment of article 121(1) A of Constitution? What is its common position on whether Lina Joy should be punished as an apostate or should be allowed to go free unpunished based on freedom of religion? Can DAP within Pakatan Rakyat avoid taking positions on public issues like these, and what is PAS’s views within Pakatan Rakyat – will there be consensus and common position?
Hi Kit,
About time to move on? I think you have got enough feed back… ;)
“……secular Malaysian Malaysia will take root and Islamic state will die a natural death.” That is not only wishful thinking on Limkaput’s part, it is also the death of the DAP as a party with any relevance in future elections.
Why should you, Limkaput, seek to “kill” off the Islamic state ? Why should you make sweeping inferences that Islamic states are backward (“all developed countries are secular” and “Which country has become developed and successful through the Islamic path?”) or why should you deny Muslims the option of voting for an Islamic state ?
You are the classic example of Chinese chauvinism. Classic DAP right wing extremist.
DAP Putra i added.
as he the one who makan the cili, and he who terasa kepedasannya.
telling others are extremist somemore!
Another example of the DAP right wing twisting and turning in their words:
Limkamput said:
“godfather, please don’t talk nonsense. If someone can say UMNO is not practising true Islam, I can’t ask who is practising it, including those from PAS, Iran, Iraq etc. What inflammatory?”
Earlier he said:
“Yes UMNO not practising true Islam. Tell me who practises true Islam, PAS? PR? who?”
The inference here is that Limkaput, a Chinaman, thinks that no one practises true Islam. And then he goes on to say that he is not bashing Islam. He said: “I just want to reiterate that we are NOT bashing Islam, far from it.”
He wants a level playing field to discuss secular vs Islamic state but he lets slip that his starting position is the death of the Islamic state.
I support YB Kit. Can you guys here please wise up & see the big picture… In the 50+ years where PAS is in existence in Malaysia, they have never given up on Islamic State. Suddenly, barely 3 months before the 2008 GE, they kept quiet & change their cause & manifesto to a ‘Welfare State’.
Wise up, Wake up!!!!! I bet Islamic rules will crop up within 4 yrs which will make Kedah much more Islamic & will definitely restrict the freedom of non-Muslims to some extent. Trust me, we the regular Chinese 4D punters will be one of the first.
Why I support YB Kit in this blog. If PAS is 50+ years old, YB Kit is also of the same age. I respect the elderly as they are wiser… I know what he thinks. I say YB Karpal Singh also has the same idea.
We young bloggers here only want to go against BN. I agree to that, but not to the extent of potentially sacrificing our own rights & freedom to a component party which is very likely to spread wahabbi Islamic teachings to all!
I DO NOT agree to DAP joining the Pakatan Rakyat.. YB Kit is smart to forsee problems with PAS & wirte this blog.
I will vote for MCA/Gerakan if DAP do join P.R. in the next GE.
politicalopinions SayS:
I think the country has violated the basic rights of ppl for religious freedom.
Muslims cannot convert out but non-muslims can convert into muslim.
one simple question: any other religion has law regarding apostasy??no!!! only islam do have, bcoz islam is not something that you can main-main,hari nie masuk besok keluar macam yb DAP.
islam never paksa orang masuk kedalamnya, but once you sudah declare u masuk islam you have to follow the teaching laa..
To All My Friends – Non Muslim,
I’m very confused, what’s wrong with Islamic Law? Do you fully understand and finish research about Islamic Law?
Islamic Law is Justice, Freedom, and Respect. Why we afraid about this law if it can help us to minimize criminal case in our country? the one who should afraid of Islamic Law is Terrorist and Criminal, not for good citizen. Believe me my friend, I love DAP as I love PAS. We already proved that we can sit together to remove UMNO from government.
Godfather,
I kinda don’t buy your argument, if so, why not Penang become a Buddhist State, since the majority are Chinese Buddhist.
Why deny the majority Chinese Buddhist Penangites the option of voting for a Buddhist State ?
If you cannot accept another religion as the state religion, don’t shove one onto others.
All we’re seeking is the neutral path, that is secularism, that is politics devoid of religion.
When it comes to religion, every religion has its dogma… try to work a “Pakatan” or “collective decisions” around these dogmas…
The very reason why religion should be separated from politics, to avoid manipulation by men.
The reality is that a state based on religion has all but been tested and proven unstable, recall the “dark ages” of Europe, before the Rakyat comes to their senses and consigned Religion and Feudal Hierarchy to just constitutional role and politics is returned to the Rakyat in the form of Democracy.
Politics changes with the tide and time to encompass the reality and practically of the era. Religious dogmas however does not.
Therefore, let’s keep religion and politics separate.
petestop:
What is a Buddhist state ?
petestop:
what is a buddist state???china? taiwan?japan?tibet?
Oh yes, where was I? Just got back from Church.
Malaysia’s Moses will emerge to open up the sea but instead of leading his people to the Promised Land, he paves the way for idol-worshippers (not American Idol) to go through to other lands.
Over the course of the next fifty years the trickle of non-Malays now opting for a better life abroad and in foreign lands will grow to a wave. Kit’s generation will fade away, taking their values with them.
Jeffery would have been disbarred and would have his QC stripped away. Godfather would have lost his Godly status.
Someone asked me earlier about why I thought that, when Bolehland becomes 80 pct Muslim, the Muslims would want an Islamic state. The Muslims may NOT want an Islamic state; in fact, the protection for the 20 pct non-Muslims is that there will be a proportion of Muslims who do NOT want an Islamic state, and hopefully this will tilt the balance against any drastic changes to the federal constitution.
Instead of engaging our Muslim brothers to ensure that we have a sufficient number of Muslims to support our cause for the future, we are driving them away with our hardline stance. We are driving them away with insults about their religion, their practices.
50 years from now, the Muslims will form 90 pct of the population. PAS can wait. So can UMNO.
kickbutt:
So the concept of Islamic state becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and they would bar me from using the first 3 letters of my name ?
As mentioned, too many DAP Putras here …
If suddently uncle Lim urges that malaysia should be an islamic country … i think these DAP Putras will change the mind and support it also …
petestop,
penang a majority chinese buddhist state? izit? really?
if so, is it persatuan buddhist semalaysia, a political party, aspiring for a buddhist state?
DAP even a secular party can NEVER has enough mandate to rule the state alone, which mandate r u saying aspirate for a buddhist state?
another very different story in the east coast!
PAS with its Islamic state aim had been given mandate to rule the state since 1990. Now DAP with no mandate gonna tell PAS to drop its Islamic state aim?
who is actually turning blind on democracy? PAS or DAP?
ric23_my,
until now, i agreed, too many DAP Putras hehe
The reality is, this is ONE of the biggest reason why majority non-Muslims have always voted for BN, which is above 60% for both Chinese and Indian.
Last election saw a swing of 60+% towards the Pakatan Rakyat.
If BN comes to its senses and goes back to the old give-n-take attitude of the founding fathers, based on a Secular State with Islam as official religion, instead of shoving Islam Hadhari down our throat, body-snatching, Lina Joy, Revathi, Hindu temple demolish, I think BN will rule Malaysia for decades to come. UMNO, wake up, are you listening ?
Don’t get all wrap up in your Ketuanan Melayu, the world is a much bigger place, don’t confine Melayu to Bolehland only. Once you demonstrate what kind of stupidity you can do in the name of religion, you lost all your loyal supporters from the Chinese and Indian community, except for those who could’nt give shit about religion or racial equality, but just in it for the money, like the remainder of MCA and MIC.
If Pakatan Rakyat cannot come to their senses, then you lost both my votes and would rather settle for BN with their corruptions.
Pakatan Rakyat still have not proven able to rule, without throwing things like Islamic State spanners into the works.
If that is chauvinistic, then say that to the 60% non-Muslims who will swing between the lesser of two evils. Sure you can argue to kingdom come that PAS version is much better, but politics is about perception, and this will not change given issues like Revathi and Lina Joy where the sanctity of the highest court, the Civil Court is violated by the Syariah Court.
Let’s not forget DAP almost got wipe out back in PRU-10 due to involvement with PAS with its Islamic State manifesto.
The people have spoken and will speak again comes PRU-13.
leeann says
“You think a black man can be a president in USA. Even Obama is half white.”
Obama is not half white. He’s half black – and he’ll be President.
syncbasher83,
now only u realize about these DAP Putras? U argue with them is similar to u argue with UMNO Putra about DEP policy … they will twist here and there …
i suggest u better save the energy … may be go and watch pirated vcd is more meaningful …
“So the concept of Islamic state becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and they would bar me from using the first 3 letters of my name ?” Godfather
First three letters? God does not have a father. He is the Father.
Oh, so if we mentioned Buddhist State, then you jump !!
That is just hypothetical and you already crying for blood.
But it is OK for you to call for a Islamic State, and expect us to sit quietly ?
I’m Christian by the way, and in no way would I want a religious government.
Just the very fact due to those who talk religion always get stuck with their dogmas, nothing to discuss, they are always right and they can quote passages from religious books to proof their point that they have the mandate from God.
Godfather,
Please don’t twist and turn my words.
I am not denying the Muslims from living in an Islamic state. I am fighting and preventing many who do not want an Islamic state. Got it?
I did not try to “kill” anything. Malaysian First secularism is now suffering a lingering death because there is no level playing field. What I was saying is this: if given the opportunity and the freedom, Malaysian First secularism can anytime challenge any philosophy in Malaysia. If I am a Chinese chauvinist for saying all these, then you are the naïve grand uncle of Islamic state that you know nothing about.
petestop,
precisely, we are talking with a group of fanatic who never really read the postings of others and yet want to talk so much.
YB Kit says that the not only non-Malays and non-Muslims but also the Malays and Muslims voted solidly (for Opposition) on March 8 for justice, freedom, democracy and good governance.
That is the rakyat’s mandate. So lets sharpen the clarity of what “justice, freedom, democracy and good governance” in the mandate exactly refer to?
They mean opposing BN in all its ways and policies that are opposite of all these “justice, freedom, democracy and good governance” eg corruption, executive interference in judiciary, abuse of power etc .
So this means that if the status quo needs to be changed in any of the states won by collaborative effort of all 3 opposition parties (DAP, PKR & PAS), then that change has to be a reversal of whatever BN does which is contrary to “justice, freedom, democracy and good governance” in the sense above outlined.
This would exclude imposition of hudud, appointing “less beautiful” women as civil servants, sex-segregated queues sexes in supermarket or in movies, and the reason for the exclusion is because the BN is not at the present moment doing all these or accused of misgoverning in ways contrary to “justice, freedom, democracy and good governance” due to any of these religious policies.
Of course nobody stops PAS from its right to pursue all these measures on its own as part of its agenda but they should not be pursued by PAS via the common platform of Pakatan Rakyat and implemented in states won through the collaborative effort of Pakatan Rakyat.
The rakyat’s mandate of the March 8th election is for the Pakatan Rakyat to change the status quo as far as BN policies are concerned in so far as these policies are not consistent with “justice, freedom, democracy and good governance” – the mandate is not to change the status quo of BN’s policies where they are not considered by mainstream as inconsistent with “justice, freedom, democracy and good governance” and these policies not considered as inconsistent (fo0r which there is no justification for change of status quo per rakyat’s mandate) will include BN’s existing policies of not imposing hudud, not preferring “less beautiful” women than beautiful women as civil servants, and not segregating the sexes in supermarket or in movies.
On this understanding the collaboration by the three Opposition parties may move forward. Agree???
ric23_my,
Are you UMNO cybertrooper ? It seems so from your past postings on this blog.
What is DAP Putra ? Can you explain ?
I’m not even a DAP member, but I am a supporter, and expressing my views freely here. Obviously it is my personal views, nothing related to DAP.
But I am a Rakyat, and am just expressing my views, as in a democracy.
If you cannot agree with our views, just say so and give your points, why go about accusing people of this and that ?
Lack of points or lack of ideas ? Or simply plain lazy, if so, please go back to watching your illegal VCDs.
petestop,
very obvious, u r DAP Putra,
see my comments here, and try to figure out wat i want to say …
http://my2cents2u.blogspot.com/
It is sad we are not moving forward. PAS is still playing to the religious gallery. Nik Aziz should understand that Islam has nothing unique to offer. How do PAS Islamic values differ to that of Christian values, Hindu Values , Bhuddist values or Secular moral values?
If there is no difference then PAS in this Pakatan should not harp on about Islamic values because it only creates division. We really need a ‘Pakatan Interfaith dialogue’ so that there is clarity on what the religious aims of the coalition are.
Why not call it ‘Pakatan Religious values’ ?
Prior to March 8, 2008 every body is talking about 50 years is enough and fully focussed on breaking the stranglehold of the incumbent administration. Now that the coalition has managed to deny BN 2/3 majority and we stand a real chance of even forming the next federal government, look at what people here are bickering about…
So fearful of this thing called Islamic State…
Fear is generated by your own mind…
We lose focus out of fear and our mind is scattered everywhere…
Chasing after thousands of illusions…
We fail to see the opportunity right in front of us: AN OPPORTUNITY TO BE FREE OF THE INCUMBENT ADMINISTRATION!
We are fast loosing that advantage: the euphoric momentum caused by the best showing in 50 years. The powerful positive energy that will ensure our success.
Where is your faith in yourself?
Where is your trust in yourself that you will be able to handle what comes your way?
Where is the TRUST IN YOURSELF THAT WILL DISSOLVE YOUR FEARS AND REGRET?
Wake up my friends… ;)
Yesterday, it was reported in Malaysiakini that Azmin Ali, Anwar Ibrahim’s sidekick commented ” ….even the non-Malays – the Chinese, Indians, Ibans and Kadazans – accept the fact that the leader has to be a Malay Muslim, but at the same time, that particular person has to be accepted by the other communities. In this context, they feel the best person is Anwar Ibrahim”.
I find the above statement a betrayal of the spirit of ‘Makal Sakthi’ , Bangsa Malaysia where each Malaysian irrespective of colour or creed has equal worth under the Malaysian sun. Isn’t Azmin Ali advocating ‘Ketuanan Melayu, Ketuanan Islam’ all over again? Malaysians came together to fight this wicked supremacist ideology in the recently concluded elections. I did not anticipate the betrayal by PAS and PKR would begin so soon.
DAP really has to be careful about formalising this ‘Pakatan Rakyat’ or shortened to PkR. I truly hope DAP will redouble its efforts to engage the East Malaysians. It would appear it is only the DAP which can safeguard the dignity and religious rights of all Malaysians.
ric23_my,
Oh, so you are one of Teng’s supporter who wants to crown him Deputy MB of Selangor….
Oh boy, I think you are the DAP Putra lah for putting self before the party… or perhaps UMNO Putra disguising as DAP Putra to try split the solidarity of DAP… now further fanning the fire int he hope of breaking up the Pakatan Rakyat…
You are so obvious, I think you don’t need to try putting on the sheepskin.
As I understood it Mr Teng was really not in the favor of the Selangor royalty, due to his “then” insistence of not comforming to the state dress code that requires one to wear a songkok.
Since then, I heard he already changed his position, as it was a different fight on different issue at that point of time. Well, good for him and perhaps if PR won PRU-13, maybe he will get his chance.
Go over to RPK’s site Malaysia Today and see his piece on Teng.
“Storm in a Songkok”
Oh boy, so, bcoz Teng did’nt get an exco post, you are crying foul that DAP is practising cronyism, nepotism…
How shallow can you get…
“Where is your faith in yourself? Where is your trust …” lkt-56
The only trust I have is in the power of my check book. Even then I cannot be sure because my bank sometimes makes errors and returns my checks.
petestop,
for another time, u shows that u r DAP Putra ..
it is not about teng, dont be narrow minded and try to see the point … not towards the individual … teng is just an example …
how about Fong in batu gajah and this guy (if u can read mandarin)
http://merdekareview.com/news.php?n=6419
kickbutt Says:
“Where is your faith in yourself? Where is your trust …” lkt-56
The only trust I have is in the power of my check book. Even then I cannot be sure because my bank sometimes makes errors and returns my checks.
:D :D :D
Pakatan press statement says –
“With the results of the recent elections, the state governments of Kelantan, Kedah, Pulau Pinang, Perak and Selangor will be known as Pakatan Rakyat state governments. The policies of these governments will be conducted in accordance with the policies of Pakatan Rakyat.”
Jeffrey, we do not have to go that far to consider the answer to your hypothetical question concerning Kedah.
Kelantan is also to be known as a Pakatan Rakyat state government and the policies of Kelantan will be conducted in accordance with the policies of Pakatan Rakyat.
Are the Islamic policies already implemented in the administration of Kelantan the policies of the Pakatan?
If not, when will the Islamic policies and practices in Kelantan be dismantled?
If so, why would the DAP be bothered about the Islamisation of Kedah or for that matter, Malaysia since Islamic policies are also Pakatan’s policies?
petestop,
The DAP leader have done quite a lots of good job from the past till now … and hopefully they can do more as they have chance to participate in state goverment now …
However, there are still some issues that they did not handle in a good manner … and when we critics and make noise about this … we are labelled as Anti-DAP …
Think in a rational way, if cant accept critics and always think urself is good … doesnt sound like UMNO Putra?
Pakatan Rakyat is different from BN … but they are same in these 2 aspects …. (1) They are human and (2) They are politician …
wat is the weakness of human and politician? it is power and money …
so when we see something wrong, we have the right to critics them to ensure that they dont follow the steps like BN … fair?
lkt-56,
I think you don’t get it. Why did we fight so hard which culminated in the landslide victory in March 8? In addition to corruption and mismanagement, we want to see the equation changed. We want to see bigotry, racial dominance, creeping Islamisation, and ketuanan Melayu precipitately removed. Hardly a month after the victory, we are seeing the reemergence of all these nonsense again and you are asking DAP to stomach it and move along. In no time DAP will end up exactly like one of the component party in BN dominated by UMNO. I say no way. It is better to confront and be upright from the very beginning. You give in an inch; it will soon be a mile. Always remember please, fighting for Malaysian First secularism is not fanatical, is not chauvinistic, and is not exclusive. The concept does not infringe on the right of anybody. Islamic state, on the other hand, infringes on the rights and way of life of non Muslims.
Uncle Lim.. I know you have “dendam” with former PM, but please forget it at this time for the sake if Pakatan Rakyat. He is attacking PakLah and his greedy son in law right now (the person who can make destroy our country and make it worst than Indonesia), so please try to ignore this former PM at least at this crucial time as we have the same target right now. Your comment that our former PM should be put in trial for his previous leadership can give Umno Paklah and his son in law an opportunity to hide their own weaknesses and corruption.
One more thing, why don´t PR try to get newspaper permit in Malaysia to provide daily news to Malaysian citizen? Its not the political newspaper, just ordinary newspaper for us to get daily news about in or inside Malaysia. By having this kind of newspaper, PR citizens can avoid utusan, bharian, the star etc…
limkamput, please remember that without Malay voters, PR will never gain power. Never ever. Why? Because Malaysia is originally Malay country. That the true fact that you or DAP cannot ignore. So please, don´t be too greedy with your ambition. What Pakatan Rakyat should be is political parties that can be fair to all races but at the same time preserve the Malay rights. This is not impossible, I don’t think Chinese people should be care too much about Kesultanan Melayu, Islamic state etc while at the same time they can have rich and happy live in this country (PR should also care about Indian economic situation). Unless limkamput has an intention to make Malaysia like Singapore where gambling, night clubs and social party are everwhere at that country, then limkamput should care about removing Islamic country status from Malaysia.
My opinion:
An Islamic state is not better than a secular state and vice versa.They are merely different systems of running a government.
PAS has the right to pursue an Islamic state just as DAP has the right to pursue a secular state. DAP should not insist that PAS gives up the right to pursue an Islamic state.
In the end, we the people have the right to decide how our country is run. If we don’t want an Islamic state than don’t vote PR (because of PAS). If we don’t want a secular state then don’t vote PR (because of DAP).
Note, ONLY 57% of malays support the idea of an Islamic state. Therefore, on average, the majority of Malaysians probably DON’T support an Islamic state.
In the end, DAP and PAS should learn to handle these things diplomatically. Tough job to reconcile the secular state and islamic state, but if PR is to work, they better sort these things out.
I just realised that in Foochow we use the word Pakat, which is actually used for PAKATan Rakyat. I never realised that it is from Malay, foochowrized by us.
Goodness. This word has a bad meaning. That is, we pakat with others only when we try to bully others or trying to do something bad!
HB Lim,
Thanks for you very good and challenging questions posted by you at 01:10.52 to test the consistencies of what I earlier said. :) Let’s take a look if what I earlier said could still stand….
Kelantan is different from Kedah, the difference being their status quo before 8th March. Kelantan (unlike Kedah) was prior to 8th March one that already had PAS’s policies (hudud, sex-segregated queues sexes in supermarket or in movies etc) in place. There should therefore be no change of status quo in Kelantan post 8th March.
You will recall I said that “rakyat’s mandate of the March 8th election is for the Pakatan Rakyat to change the status quo as far as BN policies are concerned in so far as these policies are not consistent with “justice, freedom, democracy and good governance” – the operative words being “change the status quo as far as BN policies are concerned in so far as these policies are not consistent with “justice, freedom, democracy and good governance”.
The rakyat mandate was not to change the status quo AS FAR AS PAS’s POLICIES are concerned in so far as these policies (already in place before 8th March) are not consistent with “justice, freedom, democracy and good governance”.
Although after collaboration of Pakatan Rakyat, PAS did improve even further its performance in Kelantan, I however basically consider Kelantan a PAS state because all along, before the political Tsunami of 8th March, Kelantan had been one (for some time).
The people of Kelantan had chosen PAS on the merits of its theocratic agenda even before Pakatan Rakyat joint collaboration in 12th G election and likely would have done so even if there were no such collaboration based on common manifesto on March 8th.
It would not be fair then to PAS to say that post 8th March, PAS has to put an end to its theocratic agenda in Kelantan.
You will recall that I earlier said “nobody stops PAS from its right to pursue all these measures on its own as part of its agenda but they should not be pursued by PAS via the common platform of Pakatan Rakyat and implemented in states won through the collaborative effort of Pakatan Rakyat”.
I guess I consider Kelantan as won more by PAS than the “collaborative effort of Pakatan Rakyat” since Kelantan had all the while before 8th March been with PAS.
For DAP/PKR to interfere with what PAS is doing and has all along been doing in Kelantan (the status quo) is to cross the line and interfere with PAS’s right to its own agenda.
PAS has won over Kelantanese with its theocratic agenda all this while (even before 8th March). It is not like other Pakatan Rakyat states recently won (Kedah, Selangor or Perak) in which victories and acceptance of the Opposition by their electorates were purchased on the back of a manifesto jointly endorsed by all 3 Opposition parties to the exclusion of Islamic state in the manifesto. I don’t therefore treat Kelantan as same position as the other 3 Pakatan Rakyat’s newly won states.
So how does that sound??? :)
Sorry typo – …” Thanks for YOUR very good and challenging questions…”
So HB, in the premises above and in answer to your questions:
I. Islamic policies already implemented in the administration of Kelantan are not, in my view, the policies of the Pakatan Rakyat (“PR”);
II. Hence Islamic policies and practices in Kelantan should not be dismantled by PR; and
III. DAP has right to be bothered about the Islamisation of Kedah because it was won by joint collaboration with DAP based on manifesto excluding Islamic state, where status quo of Kedah pre 8th March was one free of Islamic policies and practices of a nature imposed by PAS in Kelantan.
I. above is in spite of PR’s press statement otherwise that Kelantan is “pakatan state”.
It is – but not in context of our discussion of where to draw the line between PAS’s rights and DAP’s rights in relation to their respective ideologies competing within Pakatan Rakyat’s framework.
Why Chinese afraid of the term “Islamic state”? If for malays, non Islamic state mean they can drink alcohol wherever they want, have sex with everybody they want, gambling without fears, Drink and eat during Ramadan, go to night club without feeling guilty to their own Muslim society, wear sexy clothes etc…
WHILE Islamic state mean they live in the country where it is illegal for muslim to do or perform anything against the religion rule like the things I have said before
AND at the same time non muslim people respect (not illegal, just respect) this rule by trying not to do this things openly in the muslim area (non muslim stall can have their own night club, restaurant, bar etc).
So, is it so scary to live in Islamic state??? (ask your Chinese friends who live in Kelantan).
Emm…Didnt anyone reallise how PAS orriginally get Kelantan?Semangat 46.Doesnt ring a bell?In fact during the 11th GE,PAS nearly lost it…If not for their reform to be more moderate,in which lots of its deputy president and vice president of conservative ideologies are replaced.
I also cannot reason the argument made by syncbasher83 in which he thinks Islamic states is the best in the world.I mean….where did he get the idea?Or did he assume Japan,USA,Germany…etc is actually an islamic state?
we can say the laws in China are sometime harsher than the Hudud.There,you could get death sentence just for bribery and corruption.
Harsher punishment never really make a difference in terms of crime rate.Its just the crime are more unlikely to go public as the people that would become the wittness might symphatize with the wrongdoers and thus keeping it quiet.Humans will be human no matter what.Only through education they will change.Take Japan for example,has the lowest crime index in the world,the scandinavian had the lowest case of corruption ..etc
In truth,the choice made by the majority migh not really be the best.If society teach you that killing is the norm and is generally accepted,does that make it right?
We all know,in this world the number of people which are not so smart outnumbered the smart person.But does it make the less smart more quallified to make dicision?In the end the person that really make the difference is the intelectual(sometime genious)ones.Otherwise we would still be in a cave playing rocks………which is why education is important,more so than any punishment.Like disease,its better to prevent it rather than treating it.
What makes hudud more gruesome in this modern age is that it involves primitive appliances such as sword and stones.Really why use that,when you can use gun?
intent to write genius..sorry.
This site is now declared
http://www.talkingcock.com/
Dear Mr. Kit,
Is not wise to tell all the malays and muslims that supported you to oppose islamic state…
PAS and DAP should think more about people’s welfare than the political agenda
Islamic state, on the other hand, infringes on the rights and way of life of non Muslims.-another speculative lies.
I also cannot reason the argument made by syncbasher83 in which he thinks Islamic states is the best in the world-which sycbasher83 are u talking about? I never said that! Oh u mean, secular is the best thing out of all? really? that one i never said, its one of the DAP Putra yang seperti ‘Lembu dicucuk teloqnya according to Kg Attap ppl’ said so! I was just asking for his EMPIRICAL EVIDENCES to prove so. and of course at the end of the day, that guy doesnt have balls at all…
These are the quotable quotes of the all-knowing Mr Limkaput in this thread (so far):
“I think most voters did not get rid of UMNO and BN in March 8 in order to be replaced by a PAS led PR which is behaving like UMNO.”
““Yes UMNO not practising true Islam. Tell me who practises true Islam, PAS? PR? who?”
“……secular Malaysian Malaysia will take root and Islamic state will die a natural death.”
”…all developed countries are secular”
“Which country has become developed and successful through the Islamic path?”
Belittling people and religion is Malaysian First ? Sounds like Badawi when he said “I am fair, I will always be fair….”
The main reason so important for PAS to be in Pakatan Rakyat is to maintain the electoral pact it has with PKR and now formally with DAP. The two party system consisting of PAS in PR and and UMNO in BN is nothing but a mockery towards democracy, when they should belong to each other.
I would have more respect for this guy if he had the guts to say:
Yes, I am drawing a line in the sand now, and DAP is on one side, and PAS is on the other side. No cooperation, no Pakatan. DAP withdraws from the state legislatures in Perak and Selangor. BN is the lesser of the two evils.
Instead, he says no compromise, must fight to the very end, you give an inch and it will soon be a mile.
Then, the clincher: Kit, you must not leave Pakatan.
If you want to stand on the ground of principle, then shed the hypocrisy lah.
it is obvious you don’t know what the heck you are talking about. Go read again, if you don’t understand, read again till you get it. There is no need to resort to all these out of context accusations when you can’t win an arguement, the naive grand uncle of islamic state, that you know nothing about. Anyway, i got no time now, need to work today.
Mr Know-it-all says he is misunderstood. He says I don’t know anything about the Islamic state. Sounds more and more like Badawi.
Resorting to name-calling, making sweeping statements like “you don’t know what the heck you are talking about” – if this is the attitude of the DAP right wing fanatics, then I really feel sorry for you.
Dear All,
This is something all Msians should be aware and would also apply to all elected Pakatan members so as not to follow the path of BN’d demise.
It’s about the the Medical Perspective on Why the BN Lost in the Recent Elections Saturday, 29 March 2008:-
With the thrashing that they got in the 12th.GE, the BN is now in ICU and they are doing a postmortem to find out what happened.
To help BN with this task, the following medical report has been prepared to identify the diseases/illnesses that have been plaguing it and how these ailments have caused this sickening organization to become so sick that major surgery is now being considered.
DIAGNOSIS:-
Overeating – gorged themselves and ate too much of the people’s money
Heart failure – did not have a heart to really care about the rakyat
Rectal cancer and constipation – did not expel all the shit from the system
Diabetes – fondness for sweet things, i.e. saying sweet things to try and con the rakyat ( in plain English, lying)
Stroke – stroked too much of their own ego and became too arrogant
Overworking – too busy running here and there cutting deals for own benefit
Alzheimer’s – forgot to play the proper role of an elected representative
Obsessive-compulsive neurosis – obsession with cleaning, especially sweeping things under the carpet
HP6 – a mutation of the deadly H5N1 ( bird flu) virus which manifests itself in the form of idiocy or semi-idiocy, thus the descriptor ” half past six ( HP6)”. Many members of the BN are infected.
VD – Very Deaf. Did not listen to the grievances of the rakyat and did not heed the healthy advice and feedback from bloggers.
Color Blind – a form of visual impairment which is directly the opposite of being color blind. There is a fixation on color and everything must always be discussed in terms of “color” – Malay, Chinese, Indian etc.
Liver problems – failure to de-Liver on promises
“Inverted Cerebranus ” – a new form of disease where the cerebrum and anus are transposed causing highly irrational and objectionable behaviour, like brandishing ancient weapons and ranting racial slurs and threats
Prognosis
Not good and definitely a terminal case.
Chances of recovery are 1 in a gadzillion, about the same odds as Osama converting to the Jewish faith and becoming a messenger of world peace.
Cure
No known cure. Euthanasia recommended.
Suggest to drink lacquer – at least it will ensure a beautiful finish.
PAS should leave PR and pursue its Islamic state agenda.
LimKamPut says:
In no time DAP will end up exactly like one of the component party in BN dominated by UMNO.
Not quite sure this will happen. I mean when I see the Kit’s fiery passion in parliament, he is certainly no push over. ;)
LimKamPut says:
Always remember please, fighting for Malaysian First secularism is not fanatical, is not chauvinistic, and is not exclusive.
Telling somebody that they cannot hold on to their aspiration IS.
INCLUSIVE MEANS ALL EMBRACING. A GOOD EXAMPLE IS MOTHER EARTH, SHE NURTURES ALL. NO ONE IS EXCLUDED.
TIME…. IT DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE: SOON THE CHRISTIAN, THE MUSLIM, THE TAOIST, THE BUDDHIST, THE HINDU, THE JEW, …. THEY ALL DIE. THAT IS INCLUSIVE.
DO WE STILL THINK OUR ASPIRATIONS ALONE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANYBODY ELSE’S? ;)
Nik Aziz asks DAP leaders why they cannot accept Pas’s struggle to set up Islamic state
By : Sulaiman Jaafar
KOTA BARU, SUN:
Menteri Besar Datuk Nik Aziz Nik Mat asked DAP leaders why they cannot accept Pas’s struggle to set up an Islamic state in Malaysia and invited them to Kelantan to see things for themselves.
Nik Aziz, who is also Pas’ spiritual adviser, said he could not understand why they were so afraid over the setting-up of an Islamic state when most non-Muslims in Kelantan were comfortable living under its administration.
“I really want to know what they do not agree. It they were speaking about it 10 or 15 years ago (when we not in power), it might be true but we have administered the State without problem despite doing it the Islamic way.
“We do not force non-Muslims to convert to Islam and this has led to many of them supporting us as we also appointed Chinese, Thais and Orangs Asli as headman and supervisors to represent their race,” he told reporters after a courtesy call by Japanese ambassador to Malaysia Masahiko Horie yesterday.
Nik Aziz was commenting on a statement by DAP chairman Karpal Singh that Pas should not dream of spearheading the Pakatan Rakyat to realise its struggle of setting-up an Islamic state in the country.
The veteran opposition leader said Pas should be realistic that it was impossible for it to realise its ambition.
“How can Pas form an Islamic State alone as they cannot even get the majority to form the Government?” said Karpal.
————————————————————-
PAS HAS NOT abandoned its desire and ambition to set up an Islamic State.
If political party has enough budget and sponsor, definitely there will be independent. People will then be able to choose whether to choose “Islamic State” (PAS) or “Democratic State” (DAP) or “Fair State” (PKR)
In Johor, contractors who sponsored or sympathesize opposition were blacklisted. This deny the rakyat to have more choices of independent political party.
Dear Nik Aziz,
It is gender bias, male are more dominant than female. Female need to cover themselves, soon non muslim as well.
Female are been deprived from their rights to make friend or mate with non muslim.
There will soon no economic progress, becos all economic progress create social problems, some may against Islamic teaching mean it is forbidden.
Since everyone should be content to live moderate, we shouldn’t have 1st class facilities such as college, education, bus station, air port, sea port, clinic, hospital, shopping complex, and etc. No improvement is required.
dawsheng Says:
Yesterday at 18: 54.46
” For those who are interested in what I wrote about PAS in various threads can scroll back and read, I have provided the same answers for the same questions numerous time. Thank you”
—————
Ah but you also asked voters to vote for the opposition including PAS. See below. It may be hard for other readers to follow but the salient points being
1. You did not deny that you are Teng Chang Khim. Not that it matters to me but I find it strange that a fairly high ranking member of the DAP is playing an active hand in underminding the alliance right after the election.
2. You were providing some rather slippery answers as to why you are undermining the alliance.
Again, I really do not care if DAP is in the alliance or not. If it is part of a team, then work as a team. Otherwise, get out. Either is fine. What is not ok is being part of the team and then undermining the team publicly.
Recap of previous entries below
————————-
cto Says:
March 16th, 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 13: 55.12
Old Geezer Says:
Today at 07: 20.52 (6 hours ago)
Dawsheng, are you Teng Chang Khim?
—————————
I hope not. Cos’ two weeks ago, just prior to the election, this is what Dawsheng wrote in another thread found in this blog (see below). Clearly, he was calling chinese voters to vote for the opposition which includes PAS.
Is this what they might call divide and conquer strategy? Or is this dishonesty, plain and simple?
—————
cto Says:
March 16th, 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 15: 56.40
dawsheng Says:
Today at 15: 18.40 (27 minutes ago)
“I hope not. Cos’ two weeks ago, just prior to the election, this is what Dawsheng wrote in another thread found in this blog (see below). Clearly, he was calling chinese voters to vote for the opposition which includes PAS.
Is this what they might call divide and conquer strategy? Or is this dishonesty, plain and simple?” Old Geezer
[snip]
My question was and still is, if PAS can override the Sultan when it comes to appointment of Perak MB, would not it do the same with other matters, in particularly issues pertaining to Islamic State where the party is still pursuing aggressively? I also question (in previous thread) the validity of the People’s Declaration all opposition parties has endorsed? In view of this, will there be a meaningful collaboration with PAS?
——————–
Question then to you – Is your public criticism of PAS helping or hurting the collboration with PAS?
I can’t see it helping the collaboration. At best, it does not hurt or help. More likely, it hurts the collaboration in my humble opinion. And if you play an active hand in hurting the collaboration, please do not come back and blame PAS later.
—————–
cto Says:
March 16th, 2008 (4 weeks ago) at 16: 54.07
dawsheng Says:
Today at 16: 32.53 (16 minutes ago)
Whether my public criticisms on PAS will help or hurt the coalition state government depends on how PAS/DAP/PKR evaluate my criticisms, I am honored if they do take note of it.
————————–
Again, well spoken as a politician and your humility impresses me.
Strange coalition, I must say. One where members of the component parties publicly criticise its partners and then hope that the public criticism will be take constuctively.
If I may, I would like to make a simple suggestion that the component parties settle matter privately and show a united front publicly. If one has to be two face about things, I think this one is probably OK.
Godfather Says:
Today at 08: 08.11 (1 hour ago)
Resorting to name-calling, making sweeping statements like “you don’t know what the heck you are talking about” – if this is the attitude of the DAP right wing fanatics, then I really feel sorry for you.
————————————–
You gotta admit that this fella is consistent though. I myself could have predicted the outcome without the help of Prophet Kickbutt. :)
Female need to cover themselves, soon non muslim as well.-another speculative lie, too many lieslah.
why dont u go and eat some bakuteh or drink some tiger beer so that u can come back with less lies, less speculative lah man…
“It is better to confront and be upright from the very beginning.” Another quotable quote from Mr Know-it-all.
Confrontational politics learnt from the days of the Opposition. At least be honourable if you want to play confrontational politics within your own coalition. Be honourable like Dawsheng and Lee Wang Yen who want the DAP to withdraw from states like Perak and Selangor rather than work with PAS. At least these rightists have principles. Mr Know-it-all wants the DAP to fight, to condemn, never to give an inch – and he also wants DAP to stay in the coalition.
cto:
He’s consistent and he’s persistent alright. Consistent in his chauvinistic views and persistent enough to drive a number of fairminded people off this blog, including Undergrad2 and Blackeye.
As to your comment on Prophet Kickbutt, you ought to be careful. You are inviting another tirade from Mr Know-it-all.
How many ppl here are actually DAP members ?
Since there are so many accusation as to DAP right-wing, left-wing, center-wing, chauvinist, etc.
Let’s see, we can’t join PAS, except if we convert to Islam, we can merely join PAS supporter club…. that about sums it all what is wrong with PAS.
Tell me how PAS will react if one day, a Chinese or Indian, Christian , Buddhist or Hindu and God-forbid a Women, someone like Theresa Kok, single, Chinese, Christian is to become PM, will they be crying blood like what they call for with the Wilder Geert videos.
Yet, YB Theresa got the highest majority votes in all Malaysia,
that obviously is not enough mandate to overrule PAS’s mandate from God.
It is such a predictable response that I was wondering when PAS is going to make such comment couple days ago.
Does calling for death sentence on Wilder Geert going to resolve the rising Islamophobia around the world ? In fact, it will only continue to feed it.
Yet, if we continue to debate with them, inevitably they will pull out passages from Koran that justify the death sentence fatwa on Wilder. In which case, there is no need for any more discussion or rational deliberation.
PKR at least have moved away from race-based, religion-based and more in-line with DAP constitution. If that is chauvinistic, then you can accuse PKR of that too.
If push comes to shove, it is my personal opinion (as a Rakyat, a non-DAP member), that it is best DAP leave the Pakatan Rakyat and just work with PKR and leave PAS with their Islamic State agenda to their own device.
Don’t ever become like Gerakan (whose original ideology calls for Malaysian Malaysia), who joined BN and instead of transforming them, got “reinvented” to become a race-based party and reduced to be “running dogs” of UMNO.
Thus it is rightly so, that they got kicked out of Penang.
Well, PAS can claim they want to be the backbone of PR all they want, but they are still have the minority MPs in PR.
As to syncbasher asking for empirical proof that Secular countries are better.
Well, let’s take the G8: Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia, UK, US.
All of them secular, all of them is the most developed nation in the world, in terms of economic strength, contributation to mankind in science and technology and in reality their policies have much impact in the world, including to Malaysia.
My challenge now to syncbasher, is to provide empirical proof of which Islamic State have that kind of influence in the world ??
Godfather Says:
Today at 09: 44.57 (1 hour ago)
cto:
He’s consistent and he’s persistent alright. Consistent in his chauvinistic views and persistent enough to drive a number of fairminded people off this blog, including Undergrad2 and Blackeye.
As to your comment on Prophet Kickbutt, you ought to be careful. You are inviting another tirade from Mr Know-it-all.
—————————–
Yes, I ought to be careful cos’ I can see the adminstrator springing to action within 3 days. Prophet Kickbutt, do you have a better more accurate crystal ball? Pray tell us if you do.
syncbasher83 Says:
Female need to cover themselves, soon non muslim as well.-another speculative lie, too many lieslah.
Read more books, read more news, look at other countries.
You are clearly uneducated, being an UMNO cybertrooper(or probably nuisance) trying to stir up things, hasty at giving opinions.
I wonder, does any of your thoughts go through your brain?
Ever heard of a cascade of events? Find out!
First its the special rights, then the NEP, then keris (shall be filled with non-muslim blood), then ketuanan Melayu, what’s next?
We come out with speculations (what if) because we don’t know what happens in the future.
Your mentality is clearly—> let it happen first before we act.
Take some time and read biographies of world leaders ok? You will perhaps learn more and be mature in your thoughts.
—————————————————————
(comment against perakman’s pervious comment)
Perakman said that if you convert to Islam, you must follow the teachings. (a comment against my previous comment)
What if the person is born a muslim but doesn’t have faith in Islam? What if the person marries a muslim and is FORCED to convert to Islam?
What if the person convert into Muslim but in the end realise that the teachings doesn’t suit him and did some soul searching and found that another religion is what he wants?
These are not mere speculations and there have been cases in Malaysia.
—————————————————————-
Why not religious freedom? Since we are a multiracial country, why not a secular country?
Take your religion as a base to build up yourself to be a good leader.
I am sure, if this country is declared to be a chinese state (hypothetically) or indian state(hypothetically), the muslims will be enraged….am i right or wrong?
So stop being selfish, and accept equality to everyone.
Special rights? NEP? Ketuanan Melayu? Please take them away.
Meritocracy is the best way. It promotes competition. You can still be a rich and successful person if you work hard.
Don’t start giving excuses that only the strong and established corporates dominate the free market (PAK LAH, read this plz).
I know stories about ppl who has been sleeping in the streets becoming millionairex because they are hardworking, persistent, consistent and are brave in taking risk too. As usual, read more, PAK LAH!!!
This is my last comment here. I am lazy to argue with syncbasher83 and his fellow men. I say only once. If you decide to go around twisting my thoughts, go ahead. It would be like you trying to twist a simple verse from the holy books to suit your needs.
A simple statement sometimes got twisted beyond imagination. And that’s what syncbasher83 and his fellow men are here for.
Cheers to your efforts!
Petestop:
We all have to be very careful in what we say here, particularly on generalisations about religion. We don’t have to revisit issues that are already constitutionally enshrined like having a non-muslim as a PM. Hence the example of Teresa Kok as a possible PM should never have been brought up. If you say that the long term objective is to change the constitution to allow for a non-Muslim PM, then PAS can counter that they also have the right to fight for a change of the constitution to allow for an Islamic state.
The arguments about whether secular is better or Islamic is better should also be avoided. The country that is going to be a real superpower is China, and it is neither secular nor Islamic. And no track record of success in the past does not mean that there will be no success in the future.
I see that you have taken a principled stand – which is for the DAP to leave Pakatan. This principled stand is better than the hypocrisy proposed by certain people who wants to go on fighting to the end in public – but still remain within Pakatan, ostensibly to retain power.