Pakatan Rakyat is facing its first crisis of confidence among members, supporters and well-wishers since its formation after the March 8 political tsunami last year.
I had made a short comment to reporters on the theme of the speech of the PAS President, Datuk Seri Hadi Awang after the opening ceremony of the 55th PAS Muktamar in Stadium Melawati, Shah Alam on Friday.
I said that the theme Hadi had chosen for his opening speech, “Islam Memimpin Perubahan”, would be a great challenge for PAS to become a national party capable of representing the rights and interests of all citizens in plural Malaysia at a historic moment in the nation’s history undergoing unprecedented political change.
Some of the speeches of PAS leaders and resolutions at the 55th PAS Muktamar like the focus on Umno-PAS “unity talks” and the call for the ban of Sisters-in-Islam have however an opposite effect, creating a crisis of confidence in the Pakatan Rakyat among members, supporters and well-wishers.
UMNO Youth leader, Khairy Jamaluddin and other UMNO leaders are trying to press home the advantage of using the Umno-PAS “unity talks” to split Pakatan Rakyat and undermine public confidence in Pakatan Rakyat.
This is a test of the wisdom and capability of DAP, PKR and PAS leaders to measure up to the expectations of the people as expressed in the March general election last year to advance the cause of Pakatan Rakyat.
It is good to trash it out in the open and solve small problems now.
Keep quiet….it will be misunderstood…twisted to be something else.
One pro UMNO lecturer twisted it…and it’s headline news in Straits Times!! Now Deputy in a University….sure to be Dean of a university soon..with a title.
Hadi Awang has always been playing religion politics against UMNO… to win votes. Furthermore…I think PAS do not treat individuals like Hadi and Nik speeches representing the party…but spoken to represent themselves. In short…..they are respected…no more that powerful.
Will BN lose power in the next general elections?
The answer is dependent on a complex mix of interrelated factors of which PAS is just one. Please read my article at Hornbill Unleashed which comes in 3 parts.
http://hornbillunleashed.wordpress.com/
Wow Mr LKS … a crisis of confidence stated without fiery words. Amazing! You are a true politician. Your son’s statement is more fiery and he makes a clear stand. You can bark at BN non stop but when it comes to your own gang, you dare not bark as loud. Come on … Mr Politician …
What will you say if your wife were to say she wanna go have talks with her x bf to see maybe they can get together again? This is what PAS is doing to you ok.
Not to forget what is happening in Penang too. Your partners such as PAS and PKR are all idiots, they are selfish. Time you wake up la.
SpeakUp,
For the sake of the stability of PR, LKS is wise not to roar at PAS which would make Umno jump with glee. However you should also direct your comments at MCA which seems to be unusually quiet over this issue.
SpeakUp seemed angry but i’m sure u can be more gracious by giving a better analogue, afterall this is politics.
PAS lacks political maturity! When carried away by its religious it favor its loses its sense of direction, forgets the existence of non-Malays and their contribution towards PAS success on Mar 8, and even its sense of morality.
Why on earth may I ask should a religious based party would want to do anything with UMNO with in short is morally bankrupt, corrupted and even godless.
Why join forces with the followers of Lucifer unless PAS is a fake religious party.
OK, join UMNO and set up your Islamic state and see how the country goes down the drain.
“……morally bankrupt, corrupted and even godless….” -DAP man Today at 11: 45.21 (57 minutes ago)
Many would look to God for the Hereafter, but for now it is the Money God for which BN has an altar! Don’t decry the ‘ Money God’, a word coined by American novelist, J.D. Salinger in “The Catcher in the Rye”, a classic tale of adolescent isolation, confusion and nascent cynicism. Whilst obsession with money is worldwide, including here, this mud-raking search for wealth is not just for power, self aggrandizement and pride. Sometimes, you need it, and plenty of it, to do the honourable thing – just like the adolescent protagonist in that tale. He originally turns his back on money; he thinks avarice a great evil fostered by prevailing ideology of Capitalism, he does not care about a steady job, he turns down one after another – until his girl friend whom he loves gets pregnant, he has to marry her and provide for their child, and that’s when he returns to the pursuit of the Money God, to do the “honourable” thing. To turn one’s back to the Money God, is, according to him, to abjure Life itself and its limitless possibilities including the possibilities to do the honourable and good thing! It is when the help of Money God is required to do the honourable thing (which to many people, to provide a better life for their family and children, and not really to hurt others, that the Money God catches them by the *b…lls. :) Maybe some of the pious people, whether of cloth or serbans, have an awakening in the evening of their lives and seek to worship a little more of the Money God with whom power, especially political power and connection, is ancillary.
Crisis is always there when he coalition does not and cannot give an image that they are on the same ground or direction! – HUMAN RIGHTS!
Any practical political party should Head For Human Rights!
They should lay-out the way & steps, how this can be achieved.
They should have a frame work or organize people how to get the work done.
For example,
1. A LAW PROMOTING Unit!
To promote Human Rights and to give the transparency of how the Government should work.
2. A Government MONITORING unit!
So, anything like PKFZ could be monitored during the process and not until it becomes a can of worms!
3. A COMPLAINT Unit!
To let People monitor or voice their grievances. The basic mechanism of Human Rights.
Is Penang under DAP working in this direction?
or Selangor?
TELL PEOPLE the Facts that if PK cannot have 2/3 of the Parliament seats, the Constitution cannot be changed to get Human Rights clearly stated. To put Monitoring and Judiciary independent. At least a Two Houses systems instead of ONE?Parliament. ……
If any grievance posted continuously in a Party Website cannot be attended, the Crisis for the sustain of the Party already started. The position of a Party is not only to get Power to Govern a country. But, its ability to tell People their Rights and to learn and act upon the complaints or grievance of the People!!
NOTHING CAN MOVE FORWARDS WITHOUT CLEARING THE BACKYARD!!
IF THE PROBLEMS OF PKFZ cannot be IDENTIFIED, even if PK get hold of the Federal Government in next GE, can they perform? Same goes for the many many Land problems in ALL STATES when those cronies of BN had reaped the benefits, seeded all the Loopholes for years to come!
when the Policy AND Operation of any Party is clear and benefiting the People, People will surely swift over. Something that can show and prove the differences are most important!
PAS was part of UMNO until 1951. For the past 58 years, UMNO accepted that Malaya comprises people of different races, and it needed the cooperation of all races to convince the British to grant independence. As Tunku was from the royal family who had the noble character to honour his promises, Malaya and later Malaysia had a peaceful society until Syed Albar started his racist violence in 1964 resulting later in the separation of Singapore. Since Razak effectively took over in 1969, he made UMNO Malaysia and vice versa. PAS was also part of BN in the 1970s until conflict of interests forced them part. Since then PAS has been competing with UMNO in championing the Islamic religion. UMNO found it easier to tell their followers to wear tudung than to forgo corrupt practices. UMNO believes in observing the forms, and the outward appearance of religious leaning serves to cover up all the wrong doings unacceptable to the Islamic religion. Though the country follows mainly common law there is a leader who chose to swear in the mosque rather than have his name cleared by the only way to dispel doubts.
PAS state government of Kelantan with Nik Aziz as MB proved that he was guided by the teaching of Islam, and people of all races there are treated equal and with respect. Terengganu government under Hadi Awang proved to have the worst of both UMNO characteristics, and the use of religion for politics. Hadi Awang managed only one term in Terengganu.
Nik Aziz and Hadi Awang hold different views about the future of Malaysia. Hadi Awang wants to be both a race and religious champion, and is considered a true extremist by non-Malays, and possibly some enlightened Malays too. Hadi Awang is too old to change, since he could not be said to have been misguided; in fact his is using his position to guide his follows towards a Malay Islamic Malaysia. However he might explain his stand, what stay deep in his bone marrows will produce the same type of blood, and if he has his way, he would not have non-Malays in Malaysia. It is good that Hadi Awang is the President of PAS now so that he can decide to take PAS to be a subsidiary of UMNO. Obviously when he formed unity government with UMNO, PKR and DAP will not be led by the nose.
The GE 13 will not be called until two years later. It might be possible that Hadi Awang would hand over Kedah to UMNO, now that Perak is as good as gone. But the opposition never had so many state governments since independence, and where they have been in control, they had uncovered the excesses under BN. That should be a plus when they face election next.
If PAS joins UMNO, there will be PAS members who detested UMNO and choose to join PKR, if not DAP. The memberships of PKR and DAP might be less without the numbers in PAS, but they can work out better electro understanding come the next election. PAS members would have either to compete with UMNO before or after the candidates have been decided. Non-Malays will now clearly tell that a vote for UMNO is the same as voting PAS. Certainly PKR will have to evaluate their candidates more carefully.
The declaration by Hadi Awang is a blessing in disguise. Let us wish that PAS and UMNO would be merged. Nik Aziz can always be advisor to PKR and DAP.
“What will you say if your wife were to say she wanna go have talks with her x bf to see maybe they can get together again? This is what PAS is doing to you ok.” SpeakUp commented Today at 11: 05.31 (2 hours ago)
I guess, what the husband will say depends ultimately – on character of wife and circumstances of family.
It matters not that the marriage was not originally a love one but one of convenience.
Many marriages of our grandparents were arranged out of convenience, and after a period of adjustment, they had accommodated and turned up happy whilst the marriages of love and individual choice turn bad, as contemporary divorce statistics show…
More important is the character of the spouse, whether she evinces the potential to adapt and change over time for the common weal and goal…
If she were recalcitrant – one tracked mind, incompatible and inconsiderate of you, and the family – and you could do anything about it because your children were young, then you have to grit your teeth and bear your uphappy circumstances as stoically as you could.
However: if your children were grown up and independent of parental –ie duo parental attention – then if your wife “wanna go and have talks with her x bf to see maybe they can get together again – that will be a consummation devoutly to be wished for! You can then start a fresh with a more compatible partner and have a “second chance” so to speak!
What you should be more worried about is that your incompatible wife, who cannot change or moderate her behaviour except superficially when it is expedient for her to portray so or leverage some benefit from the marriage, is infernally sticking around and not going, and the reason that she is not going has nothing to do with her adoration or compatibility with your character or principles – and neither can you, by persuasion or example, change her recalcitrant character to a more moderate and acceptable one.
The marriages of two individuals or political parties whether originally based on convenience or otherwise have some resemblances.
Ooops “…. and you could NOT do anything about it because your children were young…”
Speed in any PR action provides the element of surprise that will deny BeEnd the advantage of time to react to PR strategy.
Sun Tzu said, “Speed is the essence of war. Capitalise on the unpreparedness of the competitor; travel by the unexpected routes; and attack those places where he does not take precautions.”
I think PAS must behave itself in PR and stop making rhetoric statement to maintain it’s ground among it’s extremists.Why is PAS afraid of SIS ? Why want to ban SIS ?. I think SIS is doing the right thing for muslim women according the Islamic teaching. Should a ban be imposed,PAS should be banned because it’s an extreme and fanatic islamic party. The hudud laws for example is outdated and gone.How these guys be so cruel to chop chop people’s hands and limbs in this modern age for committing small crime?. PAS should be reminded that it’s once been kicked out by Umno. PAS’s behaviour is like an adulterer who’s partner is PR and wants to sleep with Umno.PAS leaders are using Islam and Allah to scare people to submission especially the fairer sex .It’s better PAS leave PR.DAP will benefit much more without PAS.
CRISIS OF CONFIDENCE. That is the right word.
The disclosure by Pesuruhjaya Pas Perak Ahmad Awang that top leader from PAS central office had phoned him to form government with Umno in Perak after GE12 speaks for itself.
In Selangor, Nasharudin admitted before that talks held with Umno to form state government after 308 results.
The facts speak for itself.
YK Leong,
Barisan Nasional ‘s strategists/advisers also resort to Sun Tzu’s ‘Art of War’. The principles of unity of command, tactical maneuver, pitting resources against the weakest parts to divide and fragment, all the time conducted with stealth and secrecy and remaining invisible until last minute have all been deployed in the naked usurpation of state govt power in the silver state of Perak – and now in driving a wedge in PR by extending olive branch to certain segments of PAS, already has its desired effects even though at the end of the day there is really no promise BN would give any significant concession to the Unity Talk faction within PAS. So if PR resorts to Sun Tzu, its political opponent would pre-empt its every move – because that, believe me, you, is their bible. Maybe should try something different like principles of Atilla the Hun, used in defeating the moribund Roman Empire; or maybe Genghis Khan’s principles, which Tun Dr Mahathir (disciple of Niccolo Machiavelli’s The Prince) once asked Anwar whether he had read – worse come to worse, maybe resort to Sun Tzu’s European (Prussian) counterpart, Carl von Clausewitz’s principles of war…. :)
Gathering from the events unfolded at the 55th PAS Muktamar in Stadium Melawati, Shah Alam , it is obvious, there are still many
thorny issues need careful studying and be resolved by the PR Alliance…before the next GE. At least this is democracy in action practised by PR.
Can we say the same for UMNO-BN coalition…the component beggar parties are seen and not heard…only the arrogant and egoistic UMNO masters make all the moves.
Unity Govt with a UMNO…a devil in disguise…huh!…PAS may look stupid, talk stupid but, certainly are not stupid and unworry….
“PAS’s behaviour is like an adulterer who’s partner is PR and wants to sleep with Umno” – frankyapp
But to sleep with does not mean engaging in adultery or sin as in having sex with another. If it is for testing one’s “celibacy control”, so the argument goes, one retains purity of noble purpose.
[In his book “The Sexual Teachings of the White Tigress: Secrets of the Female Taoist Masters”, its author Hsi Lai writes that Mahatma Gandhi “periodically slept between two twelve-year-old female virgins. He didn’t do this for the purpose of actual sexual contact, but as an ancient practice of rejuvenating his male energy. . . . Taoists called this method ‘using the ultimate yin to replenish the yang.]
So sleeping with Umno is to test one’s spiritual control against blandishment of corruption and greed – as well as national unity, that’s why “Unity Talk”.
Now what is pas hoping to achieve? Two aims. 1. To lead the country by having a pas prime minister. 2. To turn the country into an islamic country. With their enlarged support base they saw it advantageous to court umno. Lets rate their success. Slim. I would say. In fact very slim. Would umno let pas leader take over and be pm? Not a chance. Would non muslims in the country support an islamic country? Again not a chance.
Now one final question. Would pas be happy if the unification resulted in pas playing the role of a minor in the unified party? I dont think they are that silly. They might as well remain in opposition. And I dont think they didnt realise that the enlargement of the support base is due to a combination of factors and not purely by reason of increased support for the party. Anti-umno votes and solidarity (for the pakatan front) votes are also important factors. And not forgetting the Anwar element. And can pas accept umno’s excessively corrupt ways? I dont know. But I dont think they can! So in the end sense will return them to pakatan.
That would be good on the whole. And that is what political freedom is all about. This is a period of adjustment. A new platform had been raised after 308 and the recent run of by-elections and now both the country and the political parties are feeling the ground of that new platform to anchor themselves. Umno and its outdated ways would turn out too slow in doing so. Pakatan with the more open ways would be able to adjust faster.
In any case, najib is as good as gone. The MV UMNO is as good as sunk.
After all, I feel that Barisan Nasional is still better than a party headed by a leader who was once jailed 6 years for corruption (Anwar Ibrahim) and with a pack who act like hooligans with blooming petals of hatred, intimidation and defamation…More http://margeemar.blogspot.com/2009/06/tenets-of-pakatan-rakyat-intimidation.html#links
I think taiking is right that it is very unlikely for PAS to fulfil its two aims (as spelled out by taiking) if it join forces with UMNO.
If Hadi, Nasha and their supporters were aware of this (could it be that their greed for power has blinded them to this?), why did they still push for the ‘unity talk’?
Let’s suppose they are aware of this. The talk about ‘unity talk’ could be driven by one of the following motives:
(1) it wants a greater say in PR (this is unlikely if they have made rational calculation, which will yield that PKR and DAP are unlikely to be held hostage to PAS’ threat to join forces with BN if it is not given a more prominent role in PR. Why? Because PKR and DAP are aware of the kind of reasoning put forward by taiking: they judge that PAS is aware that their recent electoral success depends on Anwar, anti-UMNO/BN sentiment, and strong Chinese support which is attributed to a desire to oust UMNO/BN rather than a change of heart with regard to Islamic state).
Or
(2) It hopes to hold on to federal government with UMNO by gerrymandering (i.e. rearranging the boundaries of constituencies) after it has jumped ship.
Many non-Muslim PR supporters argue that we should not be afraid to vote for PAS as a matter of strategy (rather than genuine support for their agendas) because it is rather unlikely for them to gain sufficient seats to implement their Islamic agendas. This is a fair point. But what if they join forces with UMNO? Suppose they join BN now. Even if MCA, Gerakan, and MIC pull out of BN, the new BN will still be able to hold on to the federal government if PBB and other Sarawak and Sabah parties stay in BN. PAS may count on the new BN to gerrymander so as to increase the number of Malay majority seats and reduce the number of mixed seats (many of which were created by UMNO’s gerrymandering after it had lost many Malay seats in the wake of the Reformasi movement). This will ensure that the new BN will hold on to power in the next general election. Of course, there will still be some Chinese-majority seats that are hard to gerrymander – DAP will still gain some seats. But I think they could gerrymander in such a way to ensure continuous electoral victory for UMNO-PAS (in coalition with some East Malaysian parties, especially Muslim ones).
PAS may be reasoning in the following way:
If we remain in PR, the terms of equal partnership with PKR and DAP means that we cannot push for our Islamic state agendas without getting a consensus. The chance of getting DAP to agree is slim. Also, we’ll have to bear with non-Malay dominated state governments such as the one in Perak, where DAP state assemblymen dominate.
If we go solo, we can perhaps retain Kelantan, but will probably lose many grounds we gained in the parliament and state legislative assemblies.
If we join BN now, Chinese and Indian voters may desert us in droves. But this is not a problem as long as the new BN can hold onto the federal government until 2013. By then the loss of Chinese and Indian voters will no longer be a problem if we can do some gerrymandering. With SPR on our sides, this is not a problem at all.
As for our status in BN, we could begin as an equal partner with UMNO and request for an equal share of parliamentary seats to contest in. Why would UMNO want to do this? Because UMNO is aware that BN may well lose power if we remain in PR.
Gerrymandering is the key trick. But we (PAS) is the key determinant of whether this trick works. If we stay in PR and co-operate with PKR and DAP, no amount of gerrymandering can save UMNO-BN. If they gerrymander to substantially increase the mixed constituencies, PR (largely through PKR) will win. If they gerrymander to substantially increase the Malay seats, PR (largely through PAS) will win. But if we jump ship to BN, the trick will work – increasing the Malay seats will ensure an UMNO-PAS dominance in Malaysian politics.
oops… But we (PAS) ARE…
Mareemar
After all, I feel that Barisan Nasional is still better than a party headed by a leader who was once jailed 6 years …..
——————————————————–
Not so much better when you have an UMNO PM who was linked to the murder of a Mongolian beauty and needed to hide behind the tainted judiciary and the Royal mata mat.
This so called the nation CEO has no principle, corrupted to the core, lying even to his Maker…definitely, no much for you to shout about, is’nt it!
You make Nagis tong rosak a good mess boy, polish his shoes every day, obedient sicko!
‘I think taiking is right that it is very unlikely for PAS to fulfil its two aims (as spelled out by taiking) if it join forces with UMNO’
should have been
‘I think taiking MAY BE right that it is very unlikely for PAS to fulfil its two aims (as spelled out by taiking) if it join forces with UMNO, IF WE ONLY TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE KIND OF CONSIDERATIONS HE PROVIDES IN HIS POSTING’.
oops… if it JOINS forces with UMNO…’
Sorry!
No matter what it is, the country is seriously in need of two-party system to have check and balance.
Hadi Awang should be wise enough to be awared of this.
BN has ruled this nation for too long. Scandals after scandals being treated like a joke to the men on the street with zero action taken. Billions of nation wealth been siphoned under broad day light and no action been taken against the law breakers.
Rakyat are being taken for a ride even after 308.
Still want to talk about unity with the corrupt?!
It is no good for the nation.
Allow PR to take over and rule for few terms.
Too long PR might follow BN foot steps. Same old same old.
So no matter what, the country will still need PR and BN to have check and balance.
Gerrymandering is “the key trick” per PAS (or a certain segment of PAS) / UMNO/BN collaboration in terms of longer term maintenance of political hegemony (after rather than before tie up or next GE).
Speculating on the likely shorter run considerations running up to next GE from angle of those promoting PAS/UMNO/BN tie up, of which Unity Talk is just prelude:
1. Maybe promise of office/positions/power – with it the lollies – no different from motivations of other kataks when they jump;to stay on is to have to fight the Nik Aziz/younger Erdogan/professional faction, who ill be silenced when and if PAS could be persuaded to be brought within BN’s fold.
2. A perception that even if PR wins next GE, PKR/Anwar & DAP will not play ball and submit to PAS’s leaders being allocated and holding key positions in Govt, and that whatever positions allocated to PAS’s leaders then in PR’s victory will not be better than 1. above (which has benefit of immediacy as well as UMNO in weaker bargaining position presently, facing such an economy, vis-à-vis PKR/DAP in position of electoral triumph then);
3. More fundamentally, their sense that Anwar (or maybe even other PR’s leaders) will be politically neutralized (whether by repressive tactics or otherwise) by next GE – and, PR being like a headless chicken could not make it to next election with the same organizational resources (notwithstanding growing Rakyat’s support, which may be neutralised by tricks that BERSIH complains of);
4. Ideological gap between UMNO’s Islamic nation and PAS’s theocratic state will be easier to bridge and meet at middle point than the gap between PAS’s political ideology and PKR’s or DAP’s pluralistic and other inclusivist ideas. The difference on issues of race can be bridged by Malay Unity/Constitutional special rights imperatives based on arguments that unless the majority constituency is united and stable, and hence confident, minority interests cannot be genuinely served. (This consideration is more to carry their constituencies and supporters with them).
Canvassing various considerations above, 1. and 3. may be key.
if all the within-PR ‘conflicts’ (or i will rather say difference of views) are (could be) resolved, then what make PR different than BN?
are we, the people, is looking for reconciliation of views? it is simply not possible in our context. A multi-diversity country needs a multi-diversity government. celebrate the difference!
you may ask: is this what BN is doing now? yes but too bad, bn’s umno is dominating the control and ‘conflicting’ (un-umno) views within BN is suppressed.
to PR: DO NOT FOLLOW THE SAME PATH (that will lead BN to fall soon)! difference views must be allowed (and discussed) within a democratic system.
Many PR supporters think that the PR coalition works, at least for the purpose of toppling BN in the next general election. This is because they believe that despite some fundamentally incompatible ideologies between PAS and DAP, the need to survive and make advances in the current political scene will still bring PR component parties together.
However, as the recent PAS general meeting has indicated, and if the kinds of considerations provided by Jeffrey and myself in an earlier posting are anything to go by, PAS may judge that the most advantageous move for themselves is to join forces with UMNO.
By the way, I heard the following in a seminar at the National University of Singapore: Back in 2004, when Abdullah decided to release Anwar, there was a deal according to which Anwar would return to UMNO. Anwar was away for treatment and took up visiting professorships for a while to allow Abdullah to pave the way for his return. However, the plan did not go down well with others in UMNO and thus did not work out. As a result Anwar carried on with PKR.
The story about Anwar and Abdullah was related by an Associate Professor of NUS.
Just a point of observation in passing, Najib is of course no Abdullah, the key difference is that the former not only has greater resources but also greater reservoir (various tiers) of professional political advisers from whom he could draw on for advice and political strategies, and more important a willingness to listen to them (than just confined to small coterie of immediate family members). This (asset) is something PR must take cognizance of.
However, it has also to be admitted that when it comes to different options and advices and courses of action placed before a person to navigate and decide – especially when issues are complex with all kinds of dilemmas, risks and problems implicated in which ever course taken, the wisdom and correctness or otherwise folly of choice to be taken – which of course will only be proven in hindsight will depend not just on creative competence of advisers and array of advices but ultimately the wisdom (or rather the wise instinct and gut feel), character and moral compass (whether good for himself only or the nation’s and others) of the decision maker/leader, whose task or burden it is to take the difficult decision and carry others with him. Of this second part I make no comment/comparison, at this juncture, except that Pak Lah is a ‘live and let live’ (in cantonese, “chin chai” guy).
So if the story about Anwar and Abdullah as related by an Associate Professor of NUS were true, Abdullah probably thought it was alright to give Anwar a second chance in way that Abdullah thought was best, without giving much further thought whether Anwar (upon re-joining UMNO would be a rivalling him for power as he was widely perceived doing as as deputy against TDM, causing the stronger willed latter to react drastically).
Later it was to be proven that his old allies/war lords turned against him and edge him to early retirement.
Thus when I said “this (asset) is something PR must take cognizance of” I mean when dealing with BN helmed by Najib, it is not a BN helmed by Pak Lah where PR could make an easier run leading to the political tsunamy of March 8 2008. The same political tactics carrying PR’s momentum to March 8 2008 and after till March 2009 may not be as effective now as they then were (even if opposite political rival is (seemingly) using same communal strategies and indulging in same sheninegans, it is however a different animal (in character and resources) one is dealing with now, and the sooner that is grasped, the better. :)
Hadi is up to his old tricks again. Many talk of PAS as if it is a single entity. But lets not forget that Nik Aziz is openly opposed to unity talk with UMNO.
It shows you the difference in characters between Hadi and Nik Aziz. How can one claim to be working for the benefit of Islam when one negotiates with leaders involved in massive corruption and even murder cases? Would God be happy that one allow murderers and thieves to get off scott free in exchange for having an Islamic government? What sort of Islamic government would that be?
Nik Aziz trully believes in upholding the principles of Islam. Hadi only wants an Islamic country where HE alone rules.
Hence the Constitutional crisis in Perak – and the Pakatan Rakyat facing crisis of confidence now. It may be naive to think that present crisis (precipitated in no small part by PAS’s 55th Muktamar) is due entirely to a hardline/conservative splinter group within PAS fighting Erdogan/professional faction and authority of Nik Aziz – and nothing to do with the Sun Tzu strategies of the otherside to attack determinedly and vigorously PR’s weakest link and having comparatively abundant resources to bear on the equation and outcome (much more than before under Pak Lah’s administration).
So now the consummate spinmeister understands that it was all engineered by the Oxford graduate to drive a wedge within PR. Thank goodness Kit understands this, or we will all have jumped from our balconies.
Although I have to concede that the spinmeister was led on by the small and vocal splinter group within PAS who covet the riches offered by BN.
And lets not forget that Malay’s only constitute about 65% of the population in Malaysia. With their votes split between PKR,PAS and UMNO, PAS and UMNO alone would have a tough time getting enough seats to form a government.
They’d still need votes from non Malay parties to put them in comfortably. And in the past, non-Malays have laways voted for BN because UMNO was seen as a lesser eveil. With a party consisting of PAS+UMNO, only the most ignorant and dumb non Malay would vote for it.
Lets Look at the 2008 election results.
PAS – 23 parliament seats
UMNO – 79
Only 102 seats, not enough to even form a government.
But lets add the East Malaysian BN seats: 40
142 Seats. Enough for a simple majority but only 2 seats more than what BN has right now.
Even if Hadi wanted to join UMNO, i doubt UMNO would bother accepting them. It would probably do more damage to them. In fact, i would love to see PAS crossover to join BN. Lets see what happens to BN. I daresay such an event would destroy both PAS and BN.
BN would loose it’s non Malay support and PAS would loose the support of decent honest Malays who can’t tolerate the corruption and other crimes commited by UMNO. It would be a match made in heaven for PR.
As Jeffrey has rightly pointed out, both factions within the PAS share the same ultimate goal of establishing an Islamic theocracy in Malaysia. The only difference lies in approach – whereas the cleric faction thinks that the best way is through Malay unity, the Erdorgan faction thinks that it is through PR.
PR supporters can only hope that the Erdorgan faction does not change its mind after taking into account those considerations suggested by Jeffrey and myself in an earlir posting.
///Would God be happy that one allow murderers and thieves to get off scott free in exchange for having an Islamic government?/// – Katdog
Why Not??? The other point of view is that He will be happy – when you, as first step, use murderers and thieves to come to power to establish His State, after consolidation of power, you then next thereafter deal with the murderers and thieves by decapitating murderers’ heads and amputating thieves’ hands.
There is no objection (based on ethical standpoint from such a viewpoint) to use guile (‘taqqiya’, LW Yen would say) and then later betray those who helped you when those who helped you are, according to your example, murderers and thieves. They deserve their fate, anyway, one can well rationalise it this way.
If I were not mistaken, look at how even “secular” Harry Lee/PAP climbed to power with earlier characters from trade unions like Lim Chin Siong, Fong Swee Suan and James Puthucheary espousing the virtues of the international and Chinese socialist movement (read communist), and later incarcerated them (after using them) on charges of being involved in subversive activities, and with them turn the island republic into a bastion of Capitalism it is today.
What is important is an unswerving consistency driving to the ultimate destination whether it be a capitalistic or Islamic theocratic state: in betwen in the long a tortuous journey to one’s ultimate destination, detours to side roads are OK because if you don’t take them you’ll never in due course reach your ultimate destination…
So as long as one is consistent in pursuing ultimate goal, the end will justify all means, and interim and intermediate inconsistencies are allowed, tolerable and even praiseworthy for so long it brings you just a kilometre nearer to the ultimate destination, and if one insists on consistencies for the sake of them to thwart reaching the final goal, that is viewed petty, and foolish. This how they think.
b
Katdog is right that 142 is not a very good idea for both PAS and UMNO in the long run.
But as I write in an earlier posting, they may be thinking of gerrymandering.
If redistributing constituencies requires 2/3 majority in parliament, UMNO may be thinking of some ways to blackmail the current component parties into staying on in BN while accepting PAS into its fold. If this happens they will have 2/3 majority to gerrymander.
Talking about Erdorgan rivalling the other faction, you can also guess whether amongst the Erdogan’s leaders how many are original PAS’s adherents, really believing in a different approach to reach the theocratic state, and how many really are “embedded” sleepers/trojan houses from PKR/Anwar side to monitor and influence PAS to come under influence of PKR, when it comes to the crunch.
The interesting part of this duplicituous political game in boleh land is that each side has planted their “sleepers”/trojan horses in the other camp waiting for the “D Day” so to speak like the allies planted spies in German side to pave the way in the way for the D Day landing, no different from Japanese planting their toursits and businessmen in Malaya before the invasion, or the Germans in UK before Hitler’s blitzkerg – except possibly DAP, very hard too conceive, “straight joe” DAP has planted any “sleeper” in other parties or vice versa, though I don’t know that as a fact. :)
The example of PAP isn’t suitable because unlike PAS, PAP never campaigned solely on moral or ethical grounds, whereas PAS with its Islamic platform campaigns precisely on morality to its grassroots supporters.
It may be able to sell working together with the devil to some of its supporters but i don’t think that it would be able to convince all its supporters that working with thieves just for the start can be the Islamic thing to do.
Katdog is right that the Malays make up only 65% of the population in Malaysia. However, this statistics says nothing about the chances of PAS-UMNO forming the federal government, precisely because gerrymandering has been practised in Malaysia.
Without gerrymandering, it is indeed hard for UMNO-PAS to ignore the non-Malays.
Sadly, gerrymandering in Malaysia is not a figment of our imagination.
According to ‘Elections in Malaysia’ (aliran.com):
‘…It[BN] again won the November 29, 1999 general election, garnering some 56% of the popular votes but 148 out of the 193 parliamentary seats, that is, some 77% of the seats…’
By gerrymandering, you can get a three-quarters majority in parliament though you only manage to garner slightly more than half of the votes.
In the same article:
‘SUARAM and many other observers have pointed out as well that unfair constituency delineation or gerrymandering has also made a mockery of the one-person one-vote democracy that is fundamental in any electoral system that claims to be democratic:
“For the one-person one-vote system to function, the disparity in numbers of voters between constituencies (whether at state or parliamentary level) must be controlled. The original 1957 Federal Constitution provided such guarantees – it said that the disparity shall not exceed fifteen percent (15 %). However these fundamental guarantees have been removed by constitutional amendments. Today, opposition-supporting parliamentary constituencies in Kuala Lumpur have up to 100,000 voters whilst the smallest parliamentary constituencies may have about 20,000 to 25,000 voters. The difference intended originally to be limited to 15 % has now become 400 – 500 %! In 1990 for example, while Penang (which has traditionally been an opposition bastion) had an average of about 50,838 voters per constituency, Perlis had an average of 33,032 voters per constituency. Further gerrymandering occurs in the provision of state seats within parliamentary constituencies.
In the 1995 elections, while every parliamentary constituency in Selangor was allocated three state seats, the Opposition held constituencies of Klang and Petaling Jaya were allocated only two state constituencies. Such gerrymandering means that the opposition parties whilst obtaining the support of a substantial portion of the electorate will only still obtain a small number of seats in Parliament. ‘
MCA has long told its supporters that the Chinese community needs their people in the government to ‘facilitate things’.
If PR has a good chance of winning the next general election, the Chinese will vote for PR. So MCA can’t use this to fish for votes at present.
But if PAS joins BN, MCA will have a good pretext to stay on in BN. They will tell the Chinese community that, given that PR (DAP-PKR) can no longer win the next general election, the Chinese community must support MCA, since they need their people in the government to ‘facilitate things’.
The Chinese may still give substantial support for DAP to provide a check and balance. But MCA may not do as bad as it did in 2008. At any rate, this provides MCA a pretext to stay on in BN. So UMNO may not even need to blackmail MCA into staying on.
Katdog may be right that PAP is different from PAS, given the latter’s emphasis on morality.
But Jeffrey has pointed out an important consideration which is relevant to this issue: for some Muslims (usually the conservatives), taqiyya (deceit used in holy war against physical or spiritual enemies of Islam) is part and parcel of Islamic morality.
It all depends on whether PAS belong to this category. It seems that the general outlook of PAS is quite conservative.
oops…’…PAS BELONGS to…’
“In fact, i would love to see PAS crossover to join BN.” – Katdog Today at 20: 11.09 (38 minutes ago). I do associate with such a sentiment expressed by Katdog. I won’t say “love”, but I won’t cry over it.
It is not just the balance of parliamentary power based ontne arithmetic 142 being not a very good idea for both PAS and UMNO as elucidated by Lee Wang Yen.
In the longer run it will be good for the politics – and future – of this country that existing alignment of political parties between two major coalition be re-aligned – so that one side have the parties and polticians who really believe and sincere in running the country on inclusivist, pluralistic and non communal )(and even if not secular, at least not on theocratic and religious basis) whilst those who believe or don’t care a hoot otherwise can go over to the other side for majority of Malaysians to choose, on the principle that we get the governbment that we deserve….At least we not have misalignment/mismatch of hypocrites on one side where their true politics values and ideologies rightly belong (in broad sense) more to the other side and vice versa………
(Ideally) let the crossovers from one side to the other (both ways) dictated by their true leanings than convenience and expedience happen. Better earlier than late.
And lets not
In every political party there will always be a few who dance to a different tune – just as every amateur choir has to suffer a couple of off-key members. In PKR we have Zul Noordin and the two spineless Perak frogs; in DAP we had the horrible-natured and avaricious creature Hee Yit Foong; and in PAS there are Hadi Awang, Nasharudin Mat Isa and Hassan Ali – who can’t accept Anwar Ibrahim’s leadership and seem more concerned about their own positions within the old racially compartmentalized political paradigm. Of course, the other Pakatan members will have to make it patently clear to Hadi and Nasharudin that
PAS itself will split into two factions if they persist in playing their myopic and ethnocentric games.
Antares
“Wow Mr LKS … a crisis of confidence stated without fiery word” Speakup
——–
Speakup:
I think you are a damn immature and naive big mouth. You belong to the era of the wild wild West where you shoot first without thinking of the consequences.
You, as an independent commentor, can open your big mouth and spew out all types of venom and it would not hurt even a fly. But to be in LKS’s position, one must have the maturity and judgement of when to open one’s mouth. Just don’t think that because LKS does not react with lightning speed with some fiery shots that he is not doing anything. Any wrong move and he would be picking up the pieces. To you you think a leader must be fiery and reckless in his statement to score political points. LKS has been in politics for a long time to realise that a loose tongue would cause considerable damage. Yes LKS is a more mature politician than when he was 30 years ago.
Speakup, the blame must be laid at your feet too. You have been in the comfort zone for so long thinking that everything would remain rosy forever. It is because of selfish people like you who finds that when your “comfort zone” bubble has bust, you want quick solutions – like the wild, wild West type of solution. My friend, this country has been damaged irreparably and it would take at least, conservatively, 10-15 years to correct. If you don’t see this, go and bark at every tree and ask for the moon and you would still not get the solution you want.
Go and read Sun Tzu’s ‘Art of War’ and see whether you can find any leader with a loose tongue who can win a war.
“….this country has been damaged irreparably ….”
There are those who write long postings telling us that the cure is worse than the disease.
These are the people who speculate endlessly about what the cure might be in “undeniably eloquent English”.
“As Jeffrey has rightly pointed out, both factions within the PAS share the same ultimate goal of establishing an Islamic theocracy in Malaysia. The only difference lies in approach – whereas the cleric faction thinks that the best way is through Malay unity, the Erdorgan faction thinks that it is through PR.
PR supporters can only hope that the Erdorgan faction does not change its mind after taking into account those considerations suggested by Jeffrey and myself in an earlir posting.” (Lee Wang Yen)
While Dr. Lee Wang Yen’s assumption that “both factions within the PAS share the same ultimate goal of establishing an Islamic theocracy in Malaysia” may hold true, there is no sign indicating that the Erdorgan faction will change its mind in the near future in order to come up with a compromise with the cleric faction for acceding to the formation of a UMNO-PAS Unity Government.
Not every God-fearing political leader, whether he is from PAS or from MCA, will want to give a serious consideration to the proposal of UMNO-PAS Unity Government. The reasons are as follow:
1) Some God-fearing political leaders from PAS, such as Nik Aziz and Husam Musa, may be forward-looking and they may just want to focus their attention on preaching Islam to the non-Muslims. They will reject the proposal of forming a UMNO-PAS Unity Government if such a proposal is solely based on racism, which will not be justifiable by the Islamic doctrine. They will probably hold the viewpoint that the acceptance of rationale for doing something simply based on racism will eventually make them fail God. This is because racism helps nothing much to bring more non-believers to come to know the beauty of Islam and make them wanting to convert to Islam.
2) If the cleric faction of PAS just wants to form a Unity Government with UMNO due to racism, then some conscientious leaders of MCA may reject the inclusion of PAS as a member in the coalition of Barisan Nasional. If Najib eventually insists on the acceptance of the membership application of PAS into the Barisan Nasional, then a New Barisan Nasional with only 1/2 MCA will appear. The other one half of MCA will most likely be disintegrated and join either PKR or DAP. That MCA’s partial disintegration will finally help Pakatan Rakyat to win much more seats in the 13th General Election.
Hi Jeffrey,You know pretty well that we are not dicussing about honourable men and women.When crooks,criminals,gamblers,drinkers hypocrites and the likes are sleeping together,don’t you think they will not have sex ?. Surely all the PAS and Umno guys and gals are not impotence,right Jeffrey !
Frank, “celibacy control” is just putting “sleeping together” on a very high moral platform/pedestal just so in order to provide a hypocritical cover for the gratification of the basic instinct, without others knowing or criticising such a gratification since they are conned to thinking its for a higher mystical expression of using Yin to rejuvenate Yang. :)
YB.LKS,we are very disappointed with PAS esp.wth awang and nas guy.my friends had always maintained PAS can never be trusted,and now i m beginning to be convinced.telling u,my family f 4 give our votes to pas not because we trust pas,but no choice but to give pkr a chance.but with those arrogant pas around,we won.t hesitate to vote otherwise or don’t vote the next ge.PAS says bn played them out but we feel that we r being played out by PAS in a bigger way.In fact,they are telling us,we don’t need non malays votes now.we r now a national party.we can always go back to umno to form a unity govnt.
YB Kit,
This test of confidence among the members of Pakatan Rakyat clearly shows that BN has already launched a plot of hatred seed planting through the massive onslaught attempt by the mainstream media in order to play a double crossing game with PR.
If PR leaders continue to show impatient and intolerance among themselves against one member and another, sooner or later the noble dream and aspiration of Pakatan Rakyat to champion the small men of Malaysia for purpose of overthrowing the BN government and taking over the mandate from BN to form the next Federal Government by the 13th General Election will just be reduced into an impossibility and be turned into a laughing stock of the enemy of PR.
I plea that all PR members do exercise a reasonable degree of self-restraint and self-contain in order to lay path for a cool-off period for everyone in the PR now! A biblical story tells us that King Saul became the King when he had gotten the mandate from God. However, when King Saul defied God by refusing to obey the instruction of God by his carrying out a purposeful annihilation of a people (the Gibeonites) that was supposed to receive protection from God, God later changed His mind. God finally made King Saul’s enemies come back and then King Saul was forced to commit suicide when he had been suffocated by his enemies.
I believe that PR will be given the mandate by God to take over the duty of forming the Federal Government from BN by the 13th General Election. Let’s obey God and not let God be let down by some disobedient people like Hadi Awang.
In Bible, there are dozens of Scriptural instances in which whole families bear the guilt of sins committed by their head. Achan is an example. And let’s not forget Adam!
Take another example, generational sin is usually cited by many as the reasons of the wrath of God, regarding the justification for the death of the sons of King Saul.
A writer, Jaime, found that the consequence of disobedience to God may also be found in the words of the Gibeonites:
‘QUOTE
2 Samuel 21:5-6
5 They answered the king, “As for the man who destroyed us and plotted against us so that we have been decimated and have no place anywhere in Israel,
6 let seven of his male descendants be given to us to be killed and exposed before the LORD at Gibeah of Saul—the Lord ‘s chosen one.”
So the king said, “I will give them to you.”
It is great evil to carry out a purposeful annihilation of a people that is supposed to receive protection from God. True, the Gibeonites created a ruse so that they would be spared. But the ruse was because of their fear of Israel, and the God of Israel. They had great fear and faith that God would destroy them, but they could also be spared if they could just have an oath saying just that from God’s chosen nation. It took a lot of humility and wisdom for the Gibeonites to do it, because they could have chosen to be like the other accursed tribes in using the power of its military force to fight Israel.
Such fear of Israel’s God was still in the hearts of their descendants. They honored King Saul as God’s chosen one, though he did them a very great wrong. It was a breaking of a pledge. They humbly knew their limitations as foreigners in Israel (v. 4). They could not put anyone to death, nor could they ask for monetary/material compensation from Saul’s family. Hence, it is not surprising that King David asked what their request was. All they asked was justice be done.
The pain of one’s own bloodline being destroyed to near-extinction by God’s own people cannot be equalled, even more so if there was sincere faith that God would protect that bloodline. Perhaps when we get into how the Gibeonites might have felt as they saw their own loved ones being slaughtered, we can understand that their faith in God and His people being tarnished by the massacre, is one possible reason why God took it a serious offense for King Saul to carry out their annihilation.
The lack of mention of what Saul did to Gibeonite bloodline can very well be a strong warning from God that all is not forgotten by Him, even if many things are not recorded as significant by men. The famine shows that it was King David’s responsibility to do something about the great injustice forgotten by his own people, and that forgetfulness alone does not exempt anyone in Israel from receiving God’s chastisement.
Was it justified that Saul’s sons were killed? Why not just forgive and forget, and let bygones be bygones? The problem I find is this: like the attitude of Achan’s family about his sin, Saul’s own family did not think much of what he did to the Gibeonites as something so heinous. For if any of them did care about what happened, something should have already been done to exalt God’s justice and grace, especially since He did have His laws that provided protection for the foreigners welcomed among the Israelites.
But the massacre was actually forgotten. This uncaring attitude by Saul’s own family towards the Gibeonites stands in stark contrast to the attitude of Joshua and the Israelites towards the same people. Joshua and his brethren actually feared to break an oath to spare them, because they made the oath in God’s name. I think that the integrity of Joshua to honor God’s name in such an important pledge, just further compounded Saul’s sin, and the sin of his own family. For callously destroying what God has graciously spared, Saul and his family must pay. I would say that is the same kind of justice God had inflicted on Babylon and her children, as payment for her arrogance to seek the destruction of Israel.
By Jaime’
The above comment by Jaime has given us a revelation about the will of God. I believe that the will of God reveals to us that God wants to spare and protect Pakatan Rakyat just like God wanted to protect the Gibeonites from going extinction on earth! Anyone who attempts to destroy Pakatan Rakyat will certainly see some kind of justice to be inflicted upon him/her, as payment for his/her arrogance to seek the destruction of Pakatan Rakyat!
The number of Chinese majority constituencies in Malaysia is very limited. Also, many of the MCA seats are mixed constituencies.
Thus, even if half of MCA gets into PR, it is unlikely to significantly increase PR’s seats in the next general election. The malay and Muslim bumiputra front still has a very good chance of obtaining 2/3 majority seats in the parliament come that election.
As a normal human being, we do mistakes. When we do mistakes, then comes sorry and forgiveness. As a normal human being also, are we going to be arrogant for not forgive others? Leader also is not perfect. My point is DS Hadi may be wrong, may be his opinion is a mistake, whatever. But, have we the grass-root level ever thought to listen to what he is thinking and we can correct him if we think he is wrong.
I was there during Muktamar PAS in Shah Alam. I saw YB Kit also sitting in between YB Wan Azizah and MB Selangor. I listened to Hadi’s speech. I know there will be another bomb will be landed to Pakatan Rakyat. Many PAS leaders pointed out their opinions and majority of them OPPOSED the proposal of UG. The UG proposal is never ever being agreed by PAS grass-root level including myself.
I quote some speech from PAS leaders (translated to English):
Shah Alam, YB Ir Khalid Samad – “It is rather to talk about unity in Pakatan Rakyat rather to talk about unity with UMNO, our enemy”
Dewan Pemuda PAS Pusat – Sdr Zulkifli – “If PAS leaders want to see cracked (perpecahan) within PAS, just go ahead with the proposal”
Ust Nasruddin Hassan at-Tantawi – “I object the proposal of UG, but we never reject any UMNO members to see the beauty of Islam.”
Just 2 cents from me. Trust me, we PAS supporter do not support the proposal. If our leader do something wrong, it’s our right to correct him for our own organization, not just blaming. I do hope all the commenters, please forgive Ust Hadi. Mustapha Ali, one of PAS leader has already made his point clear, please read this URL.
http://www.harakahdaily.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=021238&Itemid=85
-Nurul-
UMNO has behaved as thought the country belongs only to Malay. With or without PAS included in BN or as part of UMNO, the policy of Ketuanan Melayu will not change. UMNO has gone from bad to worse, and they will not change.
PAS is now under the Presidency of a person who has combined the worse of racism and religious fanaticism. It would be good if he will bring all his followers over to UMNO, so that the balance in PAS, whether remaining as half a party, or joining PKR would still get non-Malays’ support.
UMNO will do gerrymandering whenever there is a chance to draw up new election boundaries. UMNO has shown that it did not require to obtain 2/3 majority of its own to rule as it pleases. With UMNO’s record, whether decorated with multiracial presentation or not, only fools among non-Malays will ever vote BN. DAP had no choice but to take enemies’ enemies as friends until they prove to be direct enemies. Even so, they cannot be a larger enemy than UMNO.
MCA is in dilemma. If it leaves BN, then it cannot claim to be a historical ally with the governing party. Gerakan claimed that they got into the government to rectify government excess. But in the process, Gerakan was modified to be a weaker form of MCA. Gerakan has lasted this long because UMNO was cunning to give them Penang to act on behalf of UMNO. With Penang remains in Pakatan, Gerakan will not survive the next election. Wisdom of hindsight has perfect vision. Gerakan should have remained in the opposition after May 13. The history of the federation would have been different.
PAS was a splinter group of UMNO. Those who are opposed to the BN policies of all the bad-isms have no choice but to vote for PAS when they are in the opposition. PAS is the lesser of two evil because UMNO has squandered the goodwill and it has to be removed from governing before it will ever change.
Gerrymandering is the key trick. Prior to 8 March 2008, UMNO gerrymandered to increase mixed seats. In those days, mixed seats were told to be unwinnable by the position, given that most Malays wouldn’t vote for DAP and most Chinese wouldn’t vote for PAS. But this came to an end on 8/3. BN lost a large number of mixed seats.
The current situation is such that PAS is the key determinant of whether this trick works. If PAS stays in PR and co-operate with PKR and DAP, no amount of gerrymandering can save UMNO-BN. If they gerrymander to substantially increase the mixed constituencies, PR (largely through PKR) will win. If they gerrymander to substantially increase the Malay seats, PR (largely through PAS) will win. But if PAS jumps ship to BN, the trick will work – increasing the Malay seats will ensure an UMNO-PAS dominance in Malaysian politics.
oops… were THOUGHT to be unwinnable…’
sorry