By Farish A. Noor
Civil society, and the actors who occupy that public domain, exists for a number of reasons and one of the reasons is to keep all politicians and political parties in check. It would appear that the work of civil society actors in Malaysia today has been cut out thanks to the murky goings-on within and between the political parties of Malaysia on both sides of the political fence.
Hardly three months have passed since the landmark results of the 8th March Federal elections and already we see Malaysia transformed as never before: Despite winning 79 Parliamentary seats the UMNO party that has been in power for more than half a century is showing signs of internal division and fragmenting before our very eyes; bringing with its collapse the very real possibility of change in the mindset of millions of ordinary Malaysian citizens who were told for so long that the sun of the Barisan Nasional would never set. Well, with BN MPs running helter-skelter in all directions at the moment, it would appear as if that claim is about to be tested in no uncertain terms.
What is worrying, however, is the fact that the Pakatan Rakyat coalition is still in its infant stages and does not have the luxury of time on its side. Should the BN government fall, and that prospect seems more likely by the day, the PR should be ready to assume office at a moment’s notice. This can only be done if and when the PR gets its act together and all component parties of the PR agree once and for all that they will abide by the terms they had set for themselves; which includes the PR manifesto and the standards of the People’s Declaration which they had all assented to.
Now the problem that faces the PR is that for too long the component parties have grown accustomed to their own version of narrow communitarian based politics, identifying specific and exclusive racial and religious communities as their target constituencies and primary vote base. What is even more worrying is the tendency for some of the leaders of the PR component parties to continue operating on the basis of the idea that their primary political constituency has remained unchanged; thereby making the fatal assumption that the Malaysian public and the Malaysian electorate hasn’t evolved over the years. Now the last time a right-wing politician worked on such a silly assumption he did something even sillier: namely take out a keris in public and started waffling about racial dominance and the special status of his ethnic-religious constituency. And see what happened: the same politician’s party was thumped at the polls and lost every single Malay-majority urban seat on the West coast, thereby proving that the Malays were no longer susceptible to this sort of juvenile antics and emotional manipulation. Padan Muka.
Looking at the Pakatan Rakyat coalition today, we sadly see rather similar tactics being used by some leaders of the PR, and in particular by some of the leaders of PAS. First came the claim that the PR in Selangor should start ‘Islamising’ the public space of Selangor and promoting faith and piety among the Muslims of the state, which begs the question: Since when did the PR become a missionary pietist movement and who said that PAS leaders of the PR in Selangor were voted to become our religious mentors and moral guardians?
Now it would appear that there have been calls by some of the leaders of the Youth Wing of PAS for the PR to start Islamising the five states whose assemblies are under the control of the PR, with Kelantan to serve as the model.
Now let us repeat this again for the umpteenth time: The vote for the PR at the recent elections was not a vote for an Islamic state, or an endorsement for any kind of communitarian or sectarian politics, be it on religious or ethnic grounds. The Malaysian public – who remain the real power brokers in Malaysia today – have signalled their utter disgust and frustration with the slow pace of reform that was meant to be the starting point of the Badawi administration but which ended with pointless projects such as an Islamic theme park and crystal mosque instead.
Nor is there any indication that the Muslims of Malaysia have called for any form of theocratic governance in the country, for their rejection of the state’s Islam Hadari project may actually suggest that many of them are fed up with the politicisation of religion by this stage.
So when is PAS – or rather some of the more vocal and hot-headed leaders of PAS – going to realise that for it to become a truly national party with national ambitions, it has to adapt to the reality of a plural, multicultural and multireligious Malaysia where there are not only differences between Muslims and non-Muslims, but also – crucially – differences among Muslims as well? Who and what gave these PAS leaders the licence to assume that all Muslims in Malaysia want an Islamic state, and more importantly their version of an Islamic state? What on earth makes them think that the rest of Malaysia wants to be like Kelantan?
Whenever any leader or any party in the PR makes demands like these, it goes against the collective spirit of the PR, narrows the universalist scope of the PR manifesto and betrays the spirit of the People’s Declaration – which, need we remind them, they all signed and agreed to. The negative consequences of such unilateralism are manifold, and can be summed up thus:
Firstly, it reinforces the BN’s claim that the PR is at best an instrumental coalition that will break apart because there will never be any real compromise and co-operation between PAS and the other parties;
Secondly, it sends shivers down the spines of many non-Muslim Malaysians who – for better or worse – have their own misgivings about the idea of any religious state (Islamic or otherwise) in what they hope to see evolve into a secular, democratic, free and equal Malaysia;
Thirdly, it also alienates Malaysian Muslims who – this writer included – also have deep misgivings about the abuse of religion for political ends and who do not want to live in an Islamic state where our personal lives, private space and right of speech and thought on religious matters are decided by Islamist politicians from a party we are not even members of;
Fourthly, it will provide ample materiel for Malaysia-bashers who would jump at the opportunity to rubbish the PR government (if it comes to power) and to make outlandish claims that Malaysia has fallen under the heels of PAS and is about to be transformed into some Iranian-like theocracy;
Fifth, – and perhaps this is the most dangerous consequence of all – such unilateral moves on the part of this handful of PAS leaders will pave the way for UMNO to open its doors to PAS, and to invite PAS to abandon the PR and opt for joining the BN instead, ostensibly for the sake of ensuring Malay-Muslim unity, and more importantly Malay-Muslim dominance.
Now of all the worst-case scenarios to contemplate, this is the most worrisome. During the election campaign of March 2008, UMNO’s posters in Trengganu were already paving the way for a PAS cross-over to the BN, with slogans like ‘If you want to really promote Islam, then join the BN/UMNO’. Since March there has been speculation about PAS leaders who have been in negotiations with UMNO, a fact that some of them have admitted; and talk about a PAS hop-over to UMNO/BN should the PR be successful in winning over more MPs from East Malaysia or the non-Malay component parties of the BN.
Now if this were to indeed happen, then we would be left with two political coalitions: The PR that is more pluralist but with a significantly small Malay-Muslim component, and a BN that is less pluralist but with a strong Malay-Muslim component. This may suit the needs and interests of some of the more religiously conservative and racially-minded members of the PR, but it would spell disaster for the country as Malaysia would, for all intents and purposes, be split along both racial and religious lines: the teleological conclusion to five decades of divisive racial and religious politics finally playing itself out in the fragmentation of the nation as a whole. In such a situation, the PR would indeed break apart, but the highest cost (both political and ethical) will be incurred on PAS – that would henceforth be seen and justly condemned for betraying the People’ Declaration and selling themselves to serve their own short-sighted sectarian ends.
Tuan Guru Nik Aziz Nik Mat – who knows better for he was one of those who entered the BN in the 1970s when PAS was brought into the coalition by Asri Muda – is right when he reminds the members and leaders of his own party not to fall into the trap of the BN/UMNO, and to abide by the terms and agenda of the PR. Nik Aziz remembers how PAS was sold short, betrayed and ultimately hung to dry by UMNO; and how it took the party 12 years to put itself back together before they finally regained control of Kelantan in 1990.
The ‘Young Turks’ of PAS today would do well to listen to the wise counsel of the man who is, after all, their spiritual leader and guide, for Nik Aziz knows what he is talking about on this matter. Should PAS’s leaders continue to make such unilateral demands, they will only be helping UMNO/BN weaken the collective resolve and accommodative spirit that brought the Pakatan Rakyat together in the first place, and by doing so be helping further UMNO/BN’s objective of maintaining its hegemonic grip on the country. And so for all our sakes – the Malaysian people’s and for PAS’s sake as well – do rein in these wild horses and keep the PR convoy in line. The road to a plural, democratic, inclusive and equal Malaysia is and can only be a long one, and we don’t need hot-headed unilateralists to take us off track. The March 2008 elections was an election for a new Malaysia, and not a theocratic sectarian state, be it in the communitarian mould of UMNO or PAS.
I will never come the day where PKR, PAS and DAP can form a permanent government on a common platform. Each one has got their own different agenda and we shall see how it cripples one day. PAS will find the offer from UMNO difficult to reject as DAP does not want them in PR. On the other hand PKR will not compromise with DAP on the policies when it comes to race sensitive issues. Even Anwar boasts that PR will take over the government on 16 Sept, one can see BN be back in power no longer than 2 months if that really happens.
I guess it is certainly more effective and acceptable if Muslim Malays could come forward to highlight the pointless projects such as the Islamic theme park and crystal mosque. But how many Muslim Malays are able and willing to criticise when the projects are mosque and Islamic theme park even though they know the benefits largely go to a few contractors.
As far as I can see, the politicisation of religion will go on so long as it benefits and satisfies the Malay-Muslim hegemony. It does not matter many Malays are neither subscribing to Islam Hadari of UMNO nor a more fundamental Islam of Pas.
Finally you mentioned how Nik Aziz remembered PAS was sold short, betrayed and hung dry by UMNO, suggesting his “moderating” influence on the Young Turks to be wary of UMNO’s present ploy. If you can, I wish to know in what ways Nik Aziz felt PAS was sold short, betrayed and hung dry by UMNO? Was it because he felt UMNO was too “Islamic” or was it because he felt UMNO was too “inclusive” and compromised too much at that time.
PR Selangor/Penang state governments not supporting Islam Hadari is a measure of PAS’s influence within PR and its effort to islamise the five states in PR’s control. I have never for a moment doubted PAS would abandon its theocratic agenda. It has merely down played the theocratic agenda and with the newer professionals help within project a “softer” face in the time running up to 8th March election to forge a temporary unity with DAP within PKR for purposes of dislodging common foe BN before reinstating this agenda when PR gets into power. PAS would rate its chances good. This is because it is arguably better-organised political party of the 3 Opposition parties. In terms of popular votes in last GE, PAS popular votes increased but marginally from about 1.1 million to 1.14 million as compared to DAP from 708,173 to 1,118,025 and PKR from 578,481 in 2004 to 1,509,080 in 2008 (almost 3 x) and yet it is PAS that reaps most benefits disproportionate to its marginal gains by effectively controlling 2 states (Kelantan & Kedah) and two more Mentris Besar in Kedah/Perak. Episode in Perak showed how prepared PAS was : it fielded credible Malay to beat PKR/DAP to take the MB post in line with state constitution. Its state of preparedness and better organisational skills – including organising demoinstrations- is but just one out of the four advantages. The second is its absolute bet on religion being part of the Malays’ cultural identity and their wilingnmess to shift political allegiance to unite around the purity of PAS’s religious agenda as a better alternative than UMNO’s appeal to race debunked by blatant rent seking. And the third is on the chameleon record of DSAI, his Islamic credentials past links with ABIM, betting that when the crunch comes, DSAI would for the PM’s position, side PAS against DAP with PAS pulling the strings behind in newly formed PR Govt. The fourth least favoured card, when all else fails is the alternative of collaborationg with UMNO or certain factions within to advance the theocratic agenda – Nik Aziz’s objections notwithstanding, since he is not expected to stay long in political arena.
If PAS wants to rule the country it must abandon the whole idea of Islam.The country should be secular.Islam should become personal and private.The non Muslims have learnt to live with Muslims in this country.They have adapted well.They respect the religion.That is what Islam wants.Any idea of bringing in Syariah laws will see the doom of PAS.Only Kelantan could be ruled by PAS as the Muslims make the majority.They cannot change the mindset of the Kelantanese as they have leant to live with both laws.If the Federal government were to to allow Kelantan to be run by syriah laws(after the required amendment) the next election will see their exit.It is a fact that because of the divergent law enforcement that divorces and family breakups are rampant in Kelantan.The number of Kelantanese visiting the Thai boarder for prostitution cannot be denied.It is because of the secular laws that the freedom of thoughts exists.The Kelantanese want PAS because it suits to their mindset but it has its limit.If PR and any other coalition parties want to survive they should have secularism in their mind.Anything less will be discarded.PAS should play the game well as our society is filled with young people and they have no time for religion.At the present they leave it to the elders.If imposed they will fight back at the ballot.
From the above, it is obvious that main power broker with advantages within the PR is apparently and seemingly PAS. I say “apparently and seemingly” because the real power broker upon whose game the fate of nation reposes is actually DSAI in conjunction with the Malaysian mainstream. Whilst PAS thinks that they can use DSAI as buffer with DAP, tame him and ride to power in realisation of its theocratic agenda through the political machinery of PR he forges, it may well turn out the other way around….
PAS’s apple cart may be upset because they grossly underestimate the man. DSAI knows that at least at this moment mainstream Malaysia of all races will not support PAS’s aspirations. Why would DSAI allowed himself to be played as PAS’s puppet when PKR resurrected from mere 578,481 popular votes in 2004 to garner 1,509,080 on March 8th 2008 ?? It clearly shows the direction of where the mainstream support is – and it is not towards PAS or its agenda!
As I have opportunity to speculate this in previous threads in this blog, the man would have, with experience, thought deep that his ambition to be PM & leader of Malaysia will be better served when Pakatan Rakyat canvasses support and draws its legitimacy to rule from a wider pluralistic base, diluting PAS 1 in 3 present dominant position within PR to smaller fractional part thereof by bringing in other political stakeholders – from BN’s component parties. Otherwise how to rule with significant majority? We can’t be changing govt every 6 months due to cross overs and reverse cross overs!
DSAI had made repeated claims of crossovers by BN parliamentarians, especially those in Sabah. His latest claims as reported by Malaysiakini is : “I can safely say that several MCA MPs will join us soon,” he told journalists yesterday, after opening a service centre in Bayan Baru, Penang.
Now we can think he is bluffing – or it can be for real. I ask why would he intentionally bluff to diminish his own credibility?
He has been running around having discreet meetings in Hong Kong, Manila and Singapore, stitching the deal of cross overs. Who else will join when the crunch comes?
Maybe some from UMNO, others from Gerakan & Sarawak parties, we’ll never know. However it is not impossible because many Malaysian politicians are opportunists looking for positions and power and they will scent where the direction of the wind and switch if they think Pakatan Rakyat is where the action and power soon are.
It is not difficult for “Lallang” and “frogs” to decide which is wining side of the future. The political tsunamy of 8th March has already delivered the crippling blow that has left BN limping and confused. With the clumpsy handling of Petroleum hike and inflation effects affecting bread and butter concerns, the end does seem near – all is needed is a catalyst, whaever form it may take.
The only issue is : will the supporters of PR support in principle the solicitation by Anwar of opportunist politicians from BN’s side to secure power of rule???
They would acquiesce; I argue that they should.
The reason is plain : it is the naïve to think that Pakatan Rakyat’s agenda is panacea of all ills in the country and for this reason their politicians are pristine.
PR’s politicians are not tested as to their claims of probity and other ideals. Any one can make claims whilst in Opposition – whether the majority of them are any different from BN’s politicians is subject to proof, not talk and, pardon by cynicism, my sense is that in terms of seeking power for self aggrandizement, they or the majority cannot be all that different…For it is harder for me to contemplate and believe the opposite – the rhetoric that politicians in Opposition Camp are mostly in the game for altruistic cause of serving the public and nation.
Yet even if human nature is constant in greed, any change of government from a proven failed one is arguably a good thing, it will come with different packaging, things will be a notch better, even if other things lapse back to some bad habits before, as the group coming to power will always seek to show that it has learnt the mistakes of and is better than the last one to justify their legitimacy to rule, which is part of political evolution process of incremental improvement by every change…
We will have young turks in every party trying to grab the limelight just to show their existence. Look at that Kerismuddin in the youth wing of UMNO. The only regret is their display of immaturity and disrespect for others in the coalition.
This deputy of the PAS youth wing instantly portray to us the making of an ineffective leader. I can only conclude that he got where he is by aping the style of the UMNO kerisman.
And by the way I forgot to mention that I do associate with mostly of what Iisahbiazhar posted. :)
There should not be a thought, a talk and an action of trying to control every Tom, Dic and Harry and expect everyone to be robots.
The question is therefore not whether PAS will fall into UMNO’s trap but DSAI’s trap. The PAS – UMNO Malay unity talk is one part of equation but not the bigger part which is the growing importance of the role of Malaysian middle-class (including the Malay middle class & the Young) showing by their voting in last election an inclination towards a more open multiracial concept and approach, eschewing the two extremes of PAS’s religiousity and UMNO’s rent seeking . This is DSAI’s target market! If he succeeds he will knock out UMNO’s 50 year hegemony and marginalise PAS’s roole within PR in the process. He will be assisted in no small way by that which he politically condemns – political opportunism on the part of defecting BN’s politicians. If the BN Titanic were perceived to have hit iceberg and at the last stage of slithering below the waves is there any doubt that significant groups of individuals in BN will not scramble out of it and switch camps on principle of early bird catches the worm? If they were there for the positions that power confers, so they will switch based on the same considerations and whatever misgivings one may have, their defection, en masse if possible, are imperative for a change of government. Against the opportunity is balanced this threat – will certain die hards in UMNO/BN allow this democratic and peaceful to happen or will they not instigate trouble in last ditch effort to preserve power at all costs? It is not as if Pakatan Rakyat had promised to give a general amnesty for corrupt acts and the shredder cannot eliminate all records….If anythingh the Pakatan state governments have been perceived as not above going for a witch hunt of who did what, and this is where the problem lies. A BN politician does not mind losing power especially when he has made enough but he is not going to acept the risk of being investigated and sent to jail – which is precisely what PR has not given the assurance – indeed it has evinced the reverse – and that will be the reason why a peaceful change of power is not something we can assume will naturally take place as a matter of course. Even a small kitten when cornered by a Pitbull will fight back with tooth and claws against all odds. Pakatan Rakyat’s leaders should bear this in mind.
Typo omission – “will certain die hards in UMNO/BN allow this democratic and peaceful change and transition to happen or will they not instigate trouble in last ditch effort to preserve power at all costs?”
the “turks” want to climb the leadership ladder and they are doing what mamak and the uputras are doing, dragging in sensational items whilst delivering little. In all rather shallow of them – in the understanding of religion and unity among races
Ideally, in any healthy democratic country, state and religion should be kept separate and this is enshrined in our constitution where we allow for the freedom of religious worship and belief. By implication, even atheists who believe in a materialistic world have a right to their beliefs as long as they do not harm others and themselves.
For the PAS youth leader to proclaim and presume that all muslims subscribe to hudud laws is similar to the situation where, for instance, the Catholics in Malaysia were to make it a law that all Christians, including Prostestants, wear the cross. While I am sure any power-wielding Catholic party is not so foolish as to do such a thing, I am using this as an example to show the tremendous problems of making religious values into laws for everyone.
Based on the above discussion on PAS revealing its true colours,
I think the best strategy is to counter a religious premise (hudud laws) ith another religious premise (the secular law respected and accepted by Christians or Buddhists or Hindus).
Here is the deep deception which religious fanatics are trying to deceive all faithful Malaysian citizens: that the acceptance of secular law is an acceptance of godless laws, i.e a system of justice without god in the centre of judgement. This is false and against the spirit if not the letter of the constitution. We have to obey traffic laws abd law of commerce but if you as a member of your religious fraternity wish to conduct business according to Syariah principles, well and good. Nobody is stopping you until you impose your principles on other people (who may be even more spiritual than you.)
In conclusion, the DAP and Keadilan has to engage PAS in this crucial debate. And we have to deal with the root of it, which is not so much about secuar versus religion. Don’t let PAS frame the debate. It is about religion imposed on the religious versus religious as the freewill of the individual, whatever race or creed.
PAS is a danger for Bangsa Malaysia. You cannot mix religion or race with politics in true democratic society. When PAS allowed people like Ibrahim Ali to stand under PAS ticket and allow him to insult senior leaders like Karpal in Parliament that speaks volume of the character of PAS. Would PAS allowed anyone who stood under DAP’s ticket and insult Nik Aziz.? That’s the difference between tolerent, civilised and educated people.
PAS is behaving as if they won the election by their own. Have they forgotten how they got wiped out in Trengannu. Keep up with you agenda and we will make sure after UMNO no racist or religious parties exist in Malaysia. We want Bangsa Malaysia. We want 1957 constitution.
PAS, DAP and PKR should not permit any of its soldiers and underlings to make ‘policy announcements’ that do not reflect those of their parties.
The statement by the PAS Yourh deputy chief is one such example. he should be admonished accordingly.
PAS will be backtracking on reforms if it comes with the statements on propagating and expansion of ideas of an Islamic state.
The party can be deemed to be dumb it forgets the fact that a vast majority of its seats were secured through non-Muslim support.
And non-Muslim detest any rhetoric on the setting up of a theocratic state.
“Yet even if human nature is constant in greed, any change of government from a proven failed one is arguably a good thing, it will come with a different packaging, things will be a notch better,even if other things lapse back to some bad habits before, as the group coming tp power will always seek to show that it has learnt the mistakes of and is better than the last one to justify their legitimacy to rule,which is part of political evolution process of incremental imoprovementby every change.”. Jeffrey.
An excellent argument for change and very persuasive at that.It is hoped that voters should quickly come to realise the biggest mistake made is to allow BN to rule for 50 years continuously or for that matter any party. How dump can that be!
WE hope you have sown the seed that it is imperative for this country to always have an alternate party to take over a rotting current governing party.
Is PR able to run the country? This is the question that has been playing up in majority of ordinary Malaysians’ mind. PR needs to do their housekeeping and come to one mind before the rakyat are confident in them. It is sad to note that their still bark at each other.
let hudud laws be enacted…..gone will be those criminals….gone will be those snatch thieves….gone will be those gangs…..PAS i support your hudud laws……
Heal the whole….make it a better place…..for you and me and the entire universe….
All religion are crazy
– Bill Maher
lextcs,
I think you should stop talking rubbish and nonsense here. China executes those involved in bribery. Is corruption there any better than other places? We execute drug traffickers. Is drug trafficking any better here than elsewhere. You are just a one track a**.
Before March 8th PAS did not raise the Islamic state agenda. It knew it was a divisive issue with other members of Opposition pact, principally DAP. The common pact of PKR, DAP and PAS was the pursuit of the welfare state and reinstating democracy and good governance and ending corruption. The rub is, to DAP and many in PKR, the common agenda of welfare state and reinstating democracy and good governance is just that – welfare, democracy and good governance in the context of everyday parlance and the secular way they are commonly understood anywhere in the English speaking world but to PAS, their members reconcile references to welfare, democracy and good governance as they understood in Islamic discourse, and therefore consistent with precepts of Islamic state. PAS is behaving like Humpty Dumpty in Lewis Caroll’s Alice in Wonderland. In that fable, Humpty Dumpty (“HD”) sought to lecture Alice on semantics. Humpty Dumpty told her “There’s glory for you”, Alice said, “I don’t know what you mean by ‘glory’ and Humpty Dumpty smiled and said, “of course you don’t – till I tell you”. “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty continued in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.” “The question is,” protested Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things” to which Humpty Dumpty retorted, “the question is which is to be master – that’s all”.
PAS is waiting for the day PR takes over the government in which they can be the master.
Who is being reasonable or unreasonable here? Whilst I can understand theocracy is PAS’s raison de etre, I suggest this strategy of deception without ‘good faith’ to political partners is not right. PKR & DAP have been induced to extend collaboration to counter common foe BN on PAS’s express and implied representation (upon which they relied) that PAS would put its agenda, unacceptable to the other two, in back burner. Having made political gains in the aftermath of 8th March attributed substantially to this representation of no Islamic State, PAS should not, with alacrity, try to re-assert the Islamisation of 5 pakatan controlled states. This is attempted even before victory in Federal level: imagine what happens thereafter?
I don’t buy the argument that young turks in PAS’s youth wing are pursuing their own unilateral wet dream. Their public statements to islamise 5 PR states were made with tacit acquiescence of their top leaders. Which is very much part of over all strategy of “Tayiya” -deception, infiltration and disguise- introduced into this blog’s lexicon by Lee Wang Yang – a game where second tier leaders Islamic agenda alive by periodic statements to test waters, the first tier leaders keeping silent, as if they don’t approve, until the opportune moment of power seizure.
Whilst PAS has every right to pursue its own dream, do it on its own dime, do not implicate others’ credit into a grand scheme based on misrepresentation and deception where others rely on a common understanding only to find later that there is no common understanding – or common language – because PAS, like Humpty Dumpty, chooses words to mean different from what the others understand them to mean.
PAS is VERY calculative…..everyday they use their little “Hamas and Hezbollah” to test the Peace. Their Ideology have not changed. But what we need to know is Why have the DAP “Hamas and Hezbollah” youth so toothless and not know how to play this Political game?…want me to show how??
Just start a news conference and say “Lina Joy should be free to choose her religion and PKR and PAS Agrees”…..
or “Apostasy Law should be Abolish as we from Pakatan Barisan Rakyat have agreed in the People’s Declaration”!!
or “Tun Dr. M good Friend, Mugabe must be Condemn for his acts of atrocities and crime against humanity”….
or “OIC needs tougher actions against Sudan Dafur Crime against Humanity”
or “OPEC need to help more poor nations”
Its not about trap…its about he who talk most sets the agenda!!!…..Get Going DAP..
Pray for Mugabe Death
Sorry: “…where second tier leaders Islamic KEEP agenda alive…”
916 WILL BE A HISTORICAL FEAT IN HISTORY OF MALAYSIA
Pls mark ur calendar. It is Yang Di Pertuan Negeri Sabah birthday and also the death of BN. Birth and Death!
DAP/PKR cannot play the same game of “Apostasy should be abolished & Lina Joy should be free to choose her religion” as suggested and PKR and PAS Agrees” as suggested by bumi-non-malay because (1) such statements on religion are sensitive and will alienate supporters of Islamic faith but more importantly (2) they base, and rightly so, Pakatan Rakyat’s approach on pluralistic approach of keeping religion out of the equation of governance; relegating its influence more to the private sphere of indivdual conscience and freedom of choice than the public sphere of the government, whether actively for or against any particular religion…..If PKR/DAP were to actively take public positions on religious issues like this, they forfeit their moral right to tell PAS to shut up when it does so.
or “Apostasy Law should be Abolish
bumi-non-malay
PAS can’t tell a lie and UMNO can’t tell the truth, so how could any alliance be possible ? Lextcs want hudud law, but Kasim Amat aka RealWorld can’t live without their Bentleys and cigars, so how can any Islamic alliance survive ?
Check and balance is the correct phrase, and the only understanding that UMNO has on this phrase relates to their bank account.
Stealing is a hard habit to break. Ask Kasim Amat aka RealWorld.
Thanks to umno, the standard of living of ordinary people has regressed by 20 years
http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Tuesday/National/2269524/Article/index_html
To all young turks of PAS… Don,t do to others what you don,t want others to do unto you.Remember all religions teaches the followers to do good.It is we humans who corrupt the religion for our own good.
This is POLITICS all about..SAMY VELLU the great said in todays NST papers..Tun Dr M had never help the Indians at all when Tun Dr M was the PM.
SAMY VELLU WINS HANDS DOWN TO BE IN THE MALAYSIAN BOOK OF RECORDS FOR BEING THE BEST BALL CARRIER EVER.
Anything can happen in politics. If PAS crosses over to UMNO, then PR won’t be achieving its dreams.But with MCA joinind DAP, GERAKAN going to PKR, and other parties from East Msia joining PR, it will create a stalemate.
Everything back to square one. Racist politics. My hope of a Malaysian Msia remains a hope. The country continues to be plundered. Our rights trampled. Wow! Another Pakistan in the making.
PAS can’t tell a lie and UMNO can’t tell the truth, so how could any alliance be possible ? Lextcs want hudud law, but Kasim Amat aka RealWorld can’t live without their Bentleys and cigars, so how can any Islamic alliance survive ? godfather.
I don’t know whether you are saying jest. Please don’t always say that PAS can’t tell lies and is abhorrent to Bentleys and cigar, and even women and songs. There are no universal principles in all these. If you say it many times, people may start to believe in it.
What’s the main universal principle ? That stealing is universally addictive ? That stealing is a hard habit to break ?
If members of PR could unite themselves with one aim and one vision, UMNO, the country’s political juggernaut, which is supposedly hegemonic and invincible, will see its days numbered!
“If anythingh the Pakatan state governments have been perceived as not above going for a witch hunt of who did what, and this is where the problem lies. A BN politician does not mind losing power especially when he has made enough but he is not going to acept the risk of being investigated and sent to jail – which is precisely what PR has not given the assurance – indeed it has evinced the….” – Jeffrey
Why should PR, if it ever takes over the reigns of power forego any prosecution of wrong doers and just close the books on them?
Wouldn’t that set a precedent for members of their own coalition to commit the very misdeeds that brought down the BN in the first place?
Would you or any other right thinking Malaysians live with the the reality of the national wealth being squandered away by our so called “leaders” at least for the past quarter of a century?
Is any wonder the the miscreants in this country are thumbing their noses at us?
If nothing is done to bring the miscreants to account, then you can be sure that others will follow them and believe in their impunity. And justifiably so!
Would you like to live in a country where the “leaders” are forever lining their pockets at your expense?
Shouldn’t a stop be put to it no matter what’s the cost?
We must start somewhere to have a clean government like Singapore.
I believe the Lee Kuan Yew faced the same threats but he plowed ahead regardless. And look where Singapore is now!!
Has it ever occurred to any Malaysian political party to simply be the people’s party, practice good governance by being fair to all races, responsible, and eliminate corruption? This way, that single political party can be our government for eternity and have no need of any other component political parties.
But, alas, I don’t see that happening in Malaysia for some time to come. But then, I believe most of our people are not YET ready for such governance as it entails all Malaysians to accept each and every one of us as Malaysians in every sense of the word. Malaysians, and not by any other racial, religious, and creed divides!
Damocles, going by reasoning, your objections are more than valid but if you were on the BN side would you not do everything within your power, including all possible fabrication and mischief, to stop the transfer of power by constitutional means? S’pore is not a perfect example because from day one corruption was prohibited, whereas here is under a political culture sanctioning rent seeking justified under transfer of wealth from have to have not…..and everyone within system has put finger in the pie, thinking it is natural order of things ro say one thing and do another when allied to the right side extending political protection.
If Malaysia was managed by Lee Kuan Yew from day one,our GDP will be 10 times more !! Guaranteed !!!
Dr. Farish Noor, you have put it nicely: PAS- Don’t fall into UMNO’s trap!Sadly, PAS is still running on the old cyclinder and singing the same tune which brought havoc to Barisan Alternatif. If it does not learn its past mistakes, it is condemned to make the same mistakes and will be condemned to be confined to Kelantan.
The new coalition of PKR-DAP-PAS is a new one and is rather fragile. The leaders of the three Parties must work on COMMON platforms and for the COMMON GOOD of ALL people; playing on sectarian, religious issues will get them nowhere. I remember very clearly the euphoria of PAS when it captured Trengganu: the victory went to its head; and it started thinking of the FEDERAL Government! And DAP and PKR lost quite a lot of support in their next election; and Trengganu went back to BN! This LESSON of loss has yet to sunk in among some PAS members. The sooner it learns its lesson, the better it will be for Pakatan Rakyat.. Otherwise, in the next round, it will soundly defeated; and it will back to SQUARE ONE! So, PAS must not think of GRANDIOS PLANS; and that it ALONE coudl rule the nation! It is a PIPE dream! It needs the support of DAP and PKR, without whose support, it would not be having MBs in Kedah and Perak!
Time is running short; and the Federal Government of BN may collapse any time now. The writing is on the wall: the BN component parties in West Malaysia were beaten out of shape— MCA lost 16 seats and won 15, GERAKAN won only 2; MIC, three; PPP, none; UMNO lost its strongholds in KL; and the Opposition made inroads in State seats of Negri Sembilan. Then, the vociferous calls from Sabah and Sarawak for more Cabinet positions, increase in oil royalty; development in the two States; and now the increase in petrol price by 41% ( from RM1.92 to RM2.70) is a BIG jump, causing price inccreases in food, transport, etc .These are very TRYING times for the COMMON man; and people are not keeping quiet: they are protesting. And using TEAR GAS and WATER cannons to douse protestors is the a very STUPID way of doing things. The Government is NOT listening to the woes of the ORDINARY peopel. What is worse is that the PM announced taht it is reducing the Ministers’ ENTERTAINMENT allowance by 10% ! Why not 41
It is high time that PAS looks back and rethink its strategy. Islamisation is the LEAST attractive option and it is not going to win votes for itself ; nor for the other two partners in the Alliance. RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE is important in a MULTI-religious , multi-cultural society in Malaysia. The MALAYSIAN ECONOMIC AGENDA is the RIGHT approach : help ALL who NEED help; help the HANDICAPPED; help the POOR PEOPLE; help the BRILLIANT students by giving them scholarships; help single mothers; help the BLIND, the DEAF, the DUMB. Do not be BLIND and DEAF to their CRIES for help. If you do, you are indeed DUMB!
It looks like some people in PAS are getting dumber and dumber by the day. Face REALITIES. There is nothing wrong promoting the Malaysian Economic Agenda; in fact, it is a BRILLIANT idea. GO FOR IT!!!
S.H. Huang
This diagram should be converted into stickers and displayed throughout the country to shame BN
http://kickdefella.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/oil_production_globe4.jpg?w=510&h=477
Which party do you think will form the next government of Malaysia ?
Express yourself at votingmalaysia.blogspot.com
lextcs Says:
Today at 10: 25.54 (10 hours ago)
let hudud laws be enacted…..gone will be those criminals….gone will be those snatch thieves….gone will be those gangs…..PAS i support your hudud laws……
lextcs,
the problem is that PAS won’t stop at hudud laws, they will also want gender segregation, dress code for females, banning of alcohol and entertainment outlets, etc.
Should PAS join Umno, it may not be a disaster. A major irritant is removed from PR while BN with Umno-PAS will be destined for the biggest political whipping of its life.
It is a fallacy to think that PAS’ vote bank will add to Umno’s vote bank. The reality is that Umno-PAS will appeal only to voters whose acceptance intersect with both PAS and Umno ideology. But their numbers will be few.
PAS joining Umno can only be perceived by the general public as an agreement with Umno to project their political objectives at the Federal level, in other words an Islamic State.
How many Umno loyalists will still vote for Umno knowing that an Islamic State is on the way? There are many moderate Malays who prefer to practise their religion under a secular state. What about Muslim females who fear PAS parochial attitude to women?
How many Malays who voted for PAS on its Islamic credentials will still vote for PAS in an alliance with BN whom they regard as the father and mother of corruption and patronage?
Meanwhile the non-Malays will vote en mass for Pakatan Rakyat. With stakes that high, there is no other way they will vote.
The result will be a political whipping for BN while PR romps home to a 2/3 majority!
So PAS joining BN is not the most dangerous consequence as Farish A. Noor fears. The biggest fear is that PAS throws its religious tantrums in PR and cause voters to desert the coalition as what happened in Barisan Alternatif.
PAS must realize that reverting to its former radical stance does no favours for its partners or itself. The end result will be that BN continues to rule.
If PAS join UMNO, that’s a match made in heaven.
I agree PAS should join UMNO.
PAS Malay must learn how to appreciate fashion and trend, and should be positive and supportive when a woman dress sexily.
Hello Malaysians and Muslim Brothers & Sisters,
I read with great interest about the forthcoming change of PM leadership between Pak Lah and Najib agenda, whereas Anwar is chasing after his dream as a PM coming soon in Malaysia. The world is watching with PM competition here with great interest than Euro Cup 2008 now.
The subject, PAS, Dont fall into UMNO’s trap is less important on who to gain or loss in their political battles. Most important is Malaysians have fallen into the inflation trap triggered by few rotten leaders who delivered wrong fiscal policies and poor decision making for the people of Malaysia.
I recalled my Islam religious teacher, Ustaz Salahuddin Al-Mahadi quoted in his summon:
“You dont expect two rotten apples in the same basket to taste good, any apple choosen is bad for health. The best method is to change both rotten apples with a fresh orange for healthy way of life, so it is time for people to think positive in changing the taste of new fruit in the nation basket.”
Yes, your past PM, Tun Dr had a good vision in his mind and brain. He congratulated and praised a new Northern leader, YAB Lim Guan Eng for his austeriy drives and CAT policy government in Penang. Today, the CAT government is celebrating its 100th days of achieving good results for Penangites to enjoy windfall goodies from a new government.
Penangites choosed a fresh orange leader in the 12th GE for better economic health and dumped away the rotten apples with smelly worms into the sea. Now Perakians, Selangorians, Kedahans and Kelantanese have joined the Penang CAT government for more changes in their states admin and also dumped their rotten apples away in fire and seas and replaced many fresh oranges in their administration of good governance for brighter future because the new CAT governments work hard, work smart and work clean in CAT system.
Last but not least, YAB Mr Lim Guan Eng denied the Datukship and any self-proclaimed reward titles is an excellent good leadership by example. Big applauded to plain “MR LIM”.
Congratulations from Rakyat Malaysia.
Yes, MR LIM said:-
“We can manage on our own but without the Federal funding promised us, it will make things tougher. But when the going gets tough, the tough get going. We will find a way.”
Do Malaysians have a new orange PM leader who have a good mentality, high vision, CAT brain, work HARD+SMART+CLEAN, high moral and people interest in heart for current and next generation in Malaysia?
Apple and Orange are good vitamin providers of good health if both Federal government and State government are able to work hard, work smart and work clean for Ketuanan Rakyat (not only for Ketuanan Single Race played by rotten politicians).
” IN ALLAH WE TRUST ” FOREVER, INSYALLAH !!
Regards,
Al-Sheikh Ahmeed Al-Malmudi Fuad
(Retired) Senior Fuel Engineer & Analyst
A CONCERNED PR MALAYSIAN
Mr Godfather, what i was saying is please don’t always say that PAS can’t tell lies and is abhorrent to Bentleys and cigar, and even women and songs. If you keep saying this, people may believe it is true that PAS can’t tell lies. Lying, love for Bentley and cigar and women and songs are quite universal, including those from PAS. That was what i said.
In the long run a way must be found to separate mosque (read: religion) from state or at least to incorporate new provisions within the Federal Constitution (when PR takes over) to prevent the politicization of Islam. How? It is going to be very difficult. When state funds are allowed to be used to fund religious (read: Islamic) institutions, education etc it is very difficult. The other constitutional provisions relate to the proselytization of Malays and Muslims. That represents no real and lasting problem if it is not politicized and such provisions are interpreted narrowly by our courts.
Should we expect Anwar Ibrahim, a Muslim with liberal ideas today, to spearhead the move? If he were to do that he would incur the wrath of Malay conservative Muslims in both his Party and those in UMNO and inevitably sow the seeds of his political demise.
I’m glad to see the anti-Islamic-state and anti-Islamisation (which do not mean anti-Islam) sentiment among DAP supporters.
By the way,
http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/84635
BN desertion to begin tomorrow?
K Kabilan | Jun 17, 08 11:18pm
Speculations are rife that a Barisan Nasional component party will be making an important announcement tomorrow that would leave Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi’s government hanging in a balance.
Party has two MPs
PBS leader quits in protest
Dollah was riding in his limousine when he saw two men along the roadside eating grass.
Disturbed, he ordered his driver to stop and he got out to investigate.
He asked one man, ‘Why are you eating grass?’
‘We don’t have any money for food after the price hike,’ the poor man replied. ‘We have to eat grass.’
‘Well, then, you can come with me to my house and I’ll feed you’, Dollah said.
‘But sir, I have a wife and two children with me. They are over there, under that tree’.
‘No problem, bring them along,’ Dollah replied.
Turning to the other poor man he stated, ‘You come with us also.’
The second man, in a pitiful voice then said, ‘But sir, I also have a wife and six children with me!’
‘Bring them all, as well,’ the lawyer answered.
They all entered the car, which was no easy task,even for a car as large as the limousine was.
Once underway, one of the poor-fellows turned to Dollah and said, ‘Sir, you are too kind. Thank you for taking all of us with you.’
The PM replied, ‘Glad to do it. You’ll really love my place; the grass is almost 1 metre high!’
IF Datuk Yong Teck Lee & Sabah Progressive Party don’t recoil and proceed to make the announcement today it will open the way for other Sabah dissidents – as well as others in Sarawak & Peninsular – to follow suit. I am awaiting to hear news from the MCA front.
If you ask me it is sheer waste of resources and lack of focus to employ cyber trooper from ranks of unemployed (graduated from US with reasonable English) merely to “distract and to divert attention from the issues at hand” or worse still act as “agent provocateur” to incite sensitive issues disrupting harmony.
Not being able to counter the truth is one thing, trying to preach to the converted without being armed with facts, logic and balance of discourse is counter productive to reinforce detractors negative perception deeper.
The better course is to shed the hypocrisy and come out open to admit one’s credential as a ‘sincere’ cyber communicator – this builds up a modicum of trust amongst those addressed – the mission of which is to engage Malaysians in a 2 way dialogue of government’s position, articulating the government’s position in cogent manner based on whatever facts and data made available by the government, collecting feed back for dissemination back to it for deliberation on how to improve governance and correct the negative stance of detractors. Never defend the indefensible as that erodes credibility of one’s message.
Sorry – the above inadvertantly posted in wrong thread.
Report Card on BN Government for the past 51 Years
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c13/howsy/bedol100days.jpg
If you ask PAS to put its Islamic Agenda secondary basically forever, their response would be how can they since its their party ideology? Can we ask PSM to give up its socialist stance or MCA from its Chinese interest?
PAS Youth like UMNO Youth does not know how to change because they are incapable of breaking real new grounds in idea and philosophy. Selling spiritual drug or pork barrel politics is an addiction as much for the seller as the buyer.
Frankly, i have no problem with PAS Youth selling their spiritual drug but the problem is they want to change the rules of commerce to say buyers have to buy the drug or that if the druggie and pusher causes any harm, its OK. Fine, they can sell their drug but anyone else should be able to sell medicine or stay away from it.
I refer to Front page news (The Star of 18th June) on Sultan of Selangor’s outrage at the protest of PAS Youth and its threat to stage a demonstration at Shah Alam stadium against performance of rock queen Ella and Dangdut singer MAS Idayu on July 6th.
YB, it is significant that PAS memorandum was submitted by PAS Youth Chief Sallehan Mokhyi to the Selangor Mentri Besar’s Office which is perceived as in furtherance of the earlier call by National PAS Youth vice chief Azman Shapawi that the party PAS wanted all the Pakatan Rakyat states to implement shariah laws!
My Question : did we vote Pakatan Rakyat into the state of Selangor and Perak or even Kedah so that they can become another Kelantan? Are supporting the Pakatan Rakyat to come to power to turn Malysia into an Islamic state ala PAS’s vision as slowly implemented in Kelantan?
Such threat by PAS to stage demonstration against local artiste delivered through the office of Selangor MB who keeps silent is unprecedented.
As an important component party in Pakatan Rakyat I call on you and the DAP to tell PAS off.
If this statement (that Pakatan Rakyat states implement shariah laws) were unauthorized, it behooves the PAS national leadership to contradict it, which it didn’t.
And why is either Selangor MB and DSAI quiet on this? IF Selangor MB has not tyhe spine to tell PAS off, what are the DAP state councillors doing having no guts to tell Khalid off for his non committal and cowardly stance of silence?
It is joke that you guys are thinking of cross overs to take over the government from defecting BN component parties and personages because if I were them I would take an aboutface turn to remain in the BN if your agenda is to allow PAS to use the Pakatan Rakyat to turn our country into an Islamic state!
If the DAP has no political will to take a public stand on this and has to pathetically leave it to His Royal Highness the Sultan of Selangor to resist PAS’s unjustified and unlawful encroachment (in context of the Pakatan Rakyat’s Manifesto agreed by all), I would suggest to DAP to cross over to the BN instead!
Sory for typo omission recitifed in capitals : “Are WE supporting the Pakatan Rakyat to come to power to turn Malysia into an Islamic state ala PAS’s vision as slowly implemented in Kelantan?”
At the critical moment of other BN compent parties & personages crossing over to enable Pakatan Rakyat to cross the threshold to form the government, it is surely important for Datukk Seri Anwar to realise that his stand on PAS’s initiatives to use Pakatan Rakyat to further its Islamic state agenda can no more be prevaricating because it bears on the important question whether the alternative government structured by the defacto head deserves the continued support of Mainstream Malaysia – when on the eve of crossing the Rubicon you evince the very lack of spine to do and tell right in the face of what is wrong in the same manner you accuse you the leader of your political oponent of sleep and keeping elegant silent on matters that are in principle wrong done right before your face!
I see UNMO is getting worried – about all the crimes it had committed while in power. After losing Govt, all their dirt will be for all to see on how they raped the country.
Kasim Amat was the user killer. I was wondering what had happened to this user. However, to ban this user would akin to be like BN – dirty dirty dirty….
One more thing to add to Dr Farish’s writtings. All Muslim in Malaysia should NOT perceive the rejection of PAS as synonymous to rejection of Islam. It is two separate matter. Its like rejection of a Marigold full cream milk i.e. not that I reject milk, but I merely feel that I prefer some other milk e.g. low fat, skim, etc. or even rejected it because I don’t feel like having it now. Reamplified, DON’T FALL FOR UMNO’S TRAP!
Clap clap clap, where is Lee (the Cambridge guy) and Godfather? Let’s hear more on this lingering issue. I think Farish Noor must also answer some of the questions posed on him. He seemed to praise Tok Guru Nik Aziz a lot. May I know what is his motivation for doing that? May I know whether I will get the answer from the question I asked earlier in the thread.
This gradual Islamisation and Islamic state thing are just too protracted. Are we not spending valuable time and resources debating over and over again this “good for nothing” issue. Why is it so important for one to impose his/her way on others. Why must one impose his/her belief to others? How do we conclusively prove that our way, our belief and our religion are the right one? Are not all these are mere bigotry and jingoism? Why can’t we live happily together without imposing on others? PAS must be made to understand that others are all going for inclusiveness, only PAS is going for exclusiveness. If you want to pray, to fast, to only watch religious programmes or sing religious hymns, no body is stopping you. But if others prefer to do something else (so long as not legally or morally wrong) why must you impose your way on others. What divine right have you got, PAS? Your belief is true according to your faith, not others, don’t forget that.
Yes, PK must resolve this issue once for all. My goodness, this is Selangor. Who is this PAS youth to impose on others? Certainly the majority who voted for PK do not want to exchange racism with religious bigotry.
I think it is better for BN MPs contemplating to cross over to ponder far and deep first.
To Godfather, I don’t mind letting the stealing and plundering to go on for a little while longer. I am not prepared yet to embark on another odyssey. All these PAS people really got nothing better to do. Hello PAS, show me one idea how to better manage Malaysia other than telling us what to wear, what to eat, and what to watch and what to see.
YB,
This is not a case of PAS Youth pedaling, in Big Joe’s words, “spiritual drug” on their own and up to “consumers” whether, caveat emptor, want to buy it.
There are four things here of significance:
1. They are delivering the threat of a protest demonstration via a memorandum delivered to the Selangor Menteri Besar’s Office, implicating the entire Pakatan Rakyat State Government why it acquieces with it by not thrwing it out or even making a statement or advice against!
2. State PAS Youth chief Sallehen Mokhyi’s threat to stage a demonstration at the Shah Alam Stadium came on the heels of a statement by national PAS Youth vice-chief Azman Shapawi that “THE PARTY” wanted all the Pakatan Rakyat states to implement Syariah laws, a “party” implyiong the national leadership of PAS and not just the Youtyh Wing’s unilateral wet dream of it about which to date the national leadership of paS has issued no statement to contradict it.
3. Nor did the national leadership of DAP & PKR for and on behalf of Pakatn Rakyat. HRH the Sultan of Selangor who is the head of Islam was reported to be outraged describing PAS’s protest as “hypocritical” and “trivial”, and it sems strange to me that if the Head of Islam could feel such outrage, the champions of secular and plural government within Pakatan Rakyat do not not feel such as to deem it appropraite to whispher a word!
4. At the important threshhold of Pakatan Rakyat’s ‘Crossing the Rubicon’, so to speak, to form the government with the assistance of defections from BN, all Malaysians – including the “to be defectors” – will want to know if the defacto head of PR (DSAI) is taking us to cross over to the embrace of the Islamic state.
And for PR’s leaders to keep silent so as not to upset the momentum in the face of such a blatant challenge friom PAS at such a sensitive and critical moment in our nation’s history of an unprecedented change of government is, in my opinion, cowardly and shirking of duty, and placing expedience entirely over the critical principles upon which Pakatan Rakyat including PAS through the manifesto have held out to the people and won their support on that basis, but now seem contradicted and back pedalled!
I apologise for several typos in the above.
For link to story today of the Sultan’s outrage –
http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2008/6/18/nation/21582000&sec=nation
PAS is potrying itself as a trojan horse. Is there anyone there who can see the big picture? What is more important? To stand united and work for the well-being of the rakyat? Or chose your own agenda and pick on nitty gritty issues? Shouldn’t there be a council within PR to discuss on matters like these (NOT THAT IT IS WORTH TO BE DISCUSSED AT ANYWAY)? Having such demonstration is literally waste of time, waste of resources, waste of effort! If PAS is like what the youth wing has portrayed, it will be a curse to PR.
Those PAS really……no words to describe them..If any reason PR falls, one of the MAIN reason will be them!!
I share Jeffrey’s and limkamput’s sentiment: as much as we (DAP supporters) would like to see BN losing power, we see PAS’s agenda of Islamic state and Islamisation as the greater evil.
I’m pleasantly surprised by the fact that most commentators here basically share a very similar reservation about PAS. I used to post a lot on this issue because at that time only Jeffrey, limkamput, and Dawsheng shared my view to a considerable extent. But it seems that I no longer need to do so. I hope DAP and PKR leaders will take our concern seriously.
I still remember when Sdr Lim called for the boycott of swearing of Perak Exco (on ground of PAS’ candidate being appointed as MB), he was almost castrated by the bloggers here. But now with this idiotic incident in Selangor, may I know what happened to the them, particularly Godfather? I am still waiting for your response, seriously. I am not trying to pick a quarrel here. I just want to hear your view on this.
I hope to see the keris wielding MOE jobless. Then, he can wave his keris at the night markets….I’m a teacher(LOL).
Malaysia is doomed. Why DAP & PKR have to work with Talibans like PAS? If that is how PAS is behaving, it is better for DAP & PKR to work with UMNO. Too bad one is racist and another is religious fanatics.
Component parties in BN should get out of BN to join Pakatan Rakyat while Pakatan Rakyat should kick out PAS from the coalition. Let the fanatical PAS members work with the racist UMNOputras.
MCA and UMNO are benefiting from PAS’ stupidity and foolishness. Everywhere I walk in KL today I could see posters put up by The Stars “SULTAN OF SELANGOR IS ANGRY WITH PAS.”
Much ado about nothing. PAS Youth is to be expected to make such stupid statements because that’s how they have been brought up. That’s their style of indoctrination. They will never openly denounce their Islamic agenda. Let’s wait for Nik Aziz and other senior PAS officials to make a statement on the Selangor Sultan’s outburst. Trust me – PAS Youth will be admonished behind the scenes, and there will be no further trouble.
No need to make a mountain out of a molehill. That’s what UMNO and its subservient coalition members want.
Will Yong Teck Lee be arrested under the isa?
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific/view/354887/1/.html
Part of political process, not considered security threat under ISA. Don’t think Yong Teck Lee/ SAPP will make move public like that unless they believe DSAI that more defections to come, way exceeding 30, either before Monday or on Monday itself by BN votes in support of motion. We should be ready for anything to happen good or bad.
DSAI if you want to take over the govt., make very certain that your 2/3rd majority is without PAS otherwise you’re in real trouble. In no time your govt. will thrown off by the BN.
To completely deny that Islamophobia continues to be an issue among non-Muslims is to deny the experience of the last 50 years and the opposition to religious extremism among not just non-Malays but Malay Muslims.
Though PAS has moved somewhat to the center, religious ideology still is the major motivating factor of their leaders. What is different is that PAS leadership today comprises of members of the Malay intelligentsia who are less radical, not afraid to reason and to compromise. They do not seem to be as ideologically oriented as their predecessors and are more pragmatic.
All this talk about a possible Islamic state is a manifestation of that Islamophobia which has taken a new lease of life post 9/11 and the preoccupation of some politicians with an issue they think would unite or divide depending on which side of the political divide they see themselves.
There will never be and can never be an Islamic state in Malaysia as the term ‘Islamic state’ is understood today – as is the case in countries like Pakistan.
My 2-cents.
Never say never. It could become reality maybe in another 50 – 100 years when the population mix alters drastically from what it is today.
Hence my reference and emphasis to “today”.
When Mahathir suddenly declared that Malaysia is, a view which later morphed into Malaysia has always been an Islamic state, there seems to be a divergence in views as to what is an Islamic state.
It is safe to interpret “today” as in “our life time” – even in our children’s lifetime some would maintain, until demographics change like you say it would over 50 to 100 years.
And I don’t think we need to wonder why the MSM gave such prominence to those “islamisation’ statements by the PAS young turks.
Will PAS fall into UMNO’s trap?
For the sake of our nation, I hope not!!
Over 100 years through a policy of attrition, non-Malays would have migrated to other countries. Those that remain will exist on the fringe of a predominantly Muslim society, a permanent underclass without representation in the country’s institutions. I am counting on your children and your children’s childen and mine will not be among those.
Highly unlikely that my children will treat this country as nothing more than a second home or holiday home. Their skills will be much more welcomed and rewarded in places like London, Singapore or Hong Kong, so why bother with Bolehland ?
Just look at Michelle Yeoh. She makes her fortune in Hong Kong and Hollywood, gets a datukship, and gets a pat on the back (or was it her shoulder?) by Badawi.
Wait until more member parties from BN, such as MCA, SAPP to jump ship, PR can kiss goodbye to PAS forever. PAS thinks PKR and DAP are beholden to them? Only they have their own agenda and other two parties don’t? The are slowly showing their true colors and it is total change from what they preached before GE. If the days come who care if PAS is in PR or not?
“There will never be and can never be an Islamic state in Malaysia as the term ‘Islamic State’ is understood today- as is the case in countries like Pakistan.”. undergrad 2.
Well that’s a pretty confident stance you make there. I hope you are right but for me I still have my doubts especially here in a country where the Muslims are a dominant group with not a few fundamentalists amongst the group.One would only have to look at Europe.Although there is no possibility of islamic states being formed there as yet they have made their presence felt in a few places and in some cases emphatically so.
I see the debates here are full of contradiction. First, there will never be Islamic state now. Then Islamic state will be the reality in the future.
So many assumptions here are simply unfounded. If they can’t attain Islamic state now, how will they attain it in the future? Are you saying all Muslims are supportive of Islamic state? To me it is a contest of ideas which we have to start now. The non-Malays and those Muslim who are not supportive of Islamic state must speak up now or keep our peace forever. It does not matter whether the population is 90% or even 100% Muslim in the future. The country can still be a non Islamic state, got it?
The aim and purpose of an Islamic state is the establishment, maintenance and development of those virtues which the Creator wishes human life to be enriched by the prevention and eradication of those evils in human lifewhich He finds abhorrent.Islam places a high ideal before such a state which it must use all the means at its disposal to achieve.If you ask Lee Wan yen he will say that deception is definitely one of the methods in the “all the means at its disposal to achieve such a state.”.
Just tell me which country with 100% Muslims is not an islamic state, limkamput?
The pace of transition from present to future (fast or slow) is a function of how much PAS is resisted at every stage.
The strategy – and challenge – of PAS is that it does not expect overnight change; it is patient & prepared for protracted struggle. It believes that it has eternity to struggle and prevail eventually to accomplish the Almighty’s objectives. It will assert its policy step by step, each by itself is insignificant, ambiguous and marginal (which people like us sometimes just don’t put up a fight against such an advance of PAS’s agenda precisely because it is “marginal” as weighed and balanced against greater picture of “hope” in PR’s unity etc abject frustration with BN) which PAS takes advantage of; because it also knows that when we’re not fighting over each marginal advance, the aggregate of all marginal advances over time will, in totality, represent a significant paradigm shift in position and gain of acceptance of its ideology. It is the “boiling the frog” syndrome that it is subjecting us, if you know what I mean….When we trivialise each move as ‘much ado about nothing’, they already got us squarely in where they want to place us.
“The aim and purpose of an Islamic state is the establishment, maintenance and development of those virtues which the Creator wishes human life to be enriched by the prevention and eradication of those evils in human lifewhich He finds abhorrent.”
Ah Pek, first you find me the country you described above.
The aim and purpose of an Islamic state …………………..Therefore can’t anybody name an Islamic country.Most of the OIC countries are true Islamic states.So where is the problem?
The point is you make a statement amounting to saying that it doesn’t matter whether a country 100% Muslims it can be non Islamic state. Sure it is your that it could be so but then what is in the real world is not so.The difference with what ought to be and what it really is is a world apart.That’s my point.
Should be “Sure you believe that it could so but then…………………..”.
I am not very sure we precisely understand each other. So let me say again what I was trying to say:
1. If we have Islamic states as you described, i.e… “is the establishment, maintenance and development of those virtues which the Creator wishes human life to be enriched by the prevention and eradication of those evils in human lifewhich He finds abhorrent.”, then I have no problem.
2. The reality is there is no such an Islamic state as you described.
3. The Islamic states you mentioned like OICs are not Islamic states. They are theocratic or bigotry states which many Muslims themselves may not agree but they have choice.
4. I want Malaysia to have a choice, at least when we still have the opportunity to do so.
5. Someday when Malaysia has 90% population who are Muslims, the country can still remain secular. that is my point. My question is: must a country with 90% Muslim population become theocratic?
“My question is: must a country with 90% Muslim population become theocratic?” limkamput
Nobody in this thread or in other threads has ever said that it has to be.
“…I still have my doubts especially here in a country where the Muslims are a dominant group with not a few fundamentalists amongst the group.One would only have to look at Europe.Although there is no possibility of islamic states being formed there as yet they have made their presence felt …” Ahpek
Correct me if I’m wrong. It is your belief that Malaysia is on track to becoming an Islamic state if it is not already one now – much like Marx’s dialectical materialism, an air of inevitability. May we know the foundation for that belief?
You seem to have merged the issue of an Islamic state and the influence that Islamic religious fanaticism or extremism or values have on government policies. Rather than engaged in the semantics of what is an Islamic state, it is more useful to dwell on the issue of the growing influence of Islamic values in the lives of ordinary Malaysians. It is a fact that Islamic values have intruded into the private lives of its citizens today more so than it was in the 60s. And it started with Anwar Ibrahim in the mid 70s, the Prime Minister-in-Waiting today! Let’s not forget that.
In the United States the influence of Christian evangelicalism over the country’s foreign policy has interesting ramifications and you may want to read “The Family” by Jeff Sharlett – released this year, and already a New York best seller.
What is happening in Europe for some years now is the migration (legal and illegal) of Muslims from Eastern Europe, West Asia and the Middle East. You are right about the likelihood of an Islamic state emerging in Europe right now. Right now these migrants are living on the fringes of society in Western Europe and U.K. with high unemployment rates reported among them and substandard housing, lack of health care etc. Their increasing numbers today mean the governments can no longer ignore them. With the current higher birth rates reported among them and with a low birth rate and an aging population among Caucasians, who knows where the fast changing demographics will lead over the course of centuries? A Muslim Europe is not an impossibility given the fact that Islam is growing at a much higher and faster rate than all other religions.
Limkamput asked:
““My question is: must a country with 90% Muslim population become theocratic?”
The answer is simple: It is possible, but not probable.
The issue of theocratic state vs secular state goes beyond what the law in a particular state prescribes. It is HOW that law is applied and upheld that decides whether we can term a state theocratic or secular. A classic example is Indonesia. The constitution never defines it as a theocratic state. Just because the constitution allows freedom to practice one’s religious beliefs makes people point to Indonesia as a secular country. Is it really secular ? When there is a riot, who takes the brunt of the riots ? Churches get burnt down, Chinese shops get torched. Has anyone in Indonesia been convicted (or even indicted) of causing hurt or damage to property or even murder in a riot in Indonesia ? What are the chances of a dispute between Indonesians of different faiths being really settled outside the ambit of religious pressure ?
Remember – just because a country has protection for minorities doesn’t mean it is secular. Every country with an absolute majority in one religion has a theocratic bent.
‘Theocratic bent’ as in theocracy has special meaning, the statement ‘every country with an absolute majority in one religion has a theocratic bent’ is not true if the word religion refers generally to (say) Christianity or Hinduism ; if it refers to “Islam”, may generally look that way though not true in all cases as for eg the case of Turkey which has Muslim majority but not theocratic as yet, and even in the case of Indonesia acts of riot cited are likely more motivated by race than religion. A theocratic state is defined to large extent by the prominence given to Sharia.
However the statements that a country with secular laws (as Malaysia) is not necessarily a secular state (secular as we understand the term); that determination of a theocratic bent from just the law but how that law is applied as well as “just because a country has protection for minorities doesn’t mean it is secular” are fair statements.
Lastly a state not secular may not be necessarily be the other extreme – theocratic but may by all counts be ‘hybrid’ having both characteristics.
Oops – “…determination of a theocratic bent from NOT just the law but how that law is applied…”
A useful starting point if I may suggest when it comes to what exactly is a theocractic state would be Wikipedia’s statement on the concept of a theocratic state.
“Theocracy should be distinguished from other secular forms of government that have a state religion, or are merely influenced by theological or moral concepts, and monarchies held “By the Grace of God”.
That’s why I say that it is possible, but not probable, for Bolehland to be a truly secular state when its population mix reaches 90 pct Muslim. And I don’t think my children and their children will want to hang around to find out.
Malaysia is a secular form of government with Islam as its official religion – hardly a theocratic or Islamic state. Is she on the slippery slopes towards becoming an Islamic state. Take a shot!
“And I don’t think my children and their children will want to hang around to find out.” Godfather
No. I am out!
…and they are out too!
“The reality is there is no such an islamic state as you described.”. limkamput.
An islamic state follows the tenets of islam and these tenets are the virtues the Creator wishes human life to have so as to eradicate evils.To mantain such an ideal they (islamic states) have the syariah law.
This is what all islamic states are doing but whether they are achieving virtuous life or not, I’ve no comment.Perhaps to some they haven’t but to islamic states they are likely to say yes.
It is much like a group of serious students whose aim is to achieve straight As but whether they will or not has a range of possibilities.
“My question is: must a country with 90% Muslim population become theocratic?” limkamput
Nobody in this thread or in other threads has ever said that it has to be. undergrad2
Please read what you both have posted earlier and those posted a few minutes ago.
Ah Pek, they can try to achieve whatever. But it is a one way street, that I wish is not at the expense of those who do not subscribe to such a way of life. My contention is while we still can fight for a more inclusive Malaysia, we should rightly do so. We must all be careful whether we talking about ideal or reality. To argue or even support Islamic based on its ideals is to me highly dangerous and represents misrepresentation of the reality. There will NEVER be ideal Islamic state. It will only be theocratic states.
If u go Turkey, or any of the Islamic countries, they don’t implement the so called Islam into their countries law.
If u go Mecca, the traders there don’t even lock their boutique, jus a plain cloth to cover it to tell the customer that the owner went to rest.
Religion dun blend into law – misconcept by many ppl.
AhPek Says:
Today at 01: 36.21 (8 hours ago)
………….
Just tell me which country with 100% Muslims is not an islamic state, limkamput?
Yes, at least 1 countries, i.e. TURKEY, nearly 100% muslim, but religion don’t mix with politics there. Non Muslim are not disturbed / limited in practising their believe.
“To argue or even support Islamic based on its ideals is to me highly dangerous and represents misrepresentation of the reality.There will Never be ideal Islamic state.’. limkamput
That’s what you the Kafir is saying.You are the Kafir according to the Muslims and would you say there is no such thing.
What is reality to you is of no importance to the Muslims. Muslims are interested in following the tenets of their religion.
Godfather, shouldn’t each country try to uphold its law and constitution? Isn’t that the basis of government? How can one argue that it does not matter what the law and constitution say, it is how the majority of the people choose to live. I think you have open another front which frankly I can not handle.
Malaysia has a choice now, and we should exercise it. No theocratic state. What we decide now and hopefully entrenched and solidified in our constitution will also ensure that in the future the country will remain free and secular even at that time the population may be 90% Muslims. What you see in Indonesia today is the combination of many factors – ignorance, tribalism, poverty, racism, inequality, social and economic depravation. It is not just religion. I believe as Malaysia continues to develop, through proper inculcation and open dynamism (which we must continue to fight for and preserve), the country can remain open, liberal and inclusive even though the population at at some point may be 90% Muslims. You and your friends may want to go elsewhere but my children and I are not going anywhere. But we want to continue to live in a country that is open, liberal and inclusive.
Ah Pek, precisely, I am a kafir. What we believe is based on our faith. Has it ever occurred to you that if I am a kafir to them, they are kafirs to me? But do I go around imposing and insisting that they follow my way? That is the basis of my argument. Take Selangor recent case as an example: if you choose not to watch Ella (sorry, spelling not sure) and instead want to pray, fast and watch religious programmes and sing religious hymns, what divine right have you got to tell others not to watch. Of course, may be your religion says so, but your religion is NOT my religion. So why must I follow your way? I think some of us never realise we are talking about dominance and subservience here.
Nobody in this thread or in other threads has ever said that it has to be. undergrad2
“Please read what you both have posted earlier and those posted a few minutes ago.” limkamput
I read mine and it was after you made the statement.
“My question is: must a country with 90% Muslim population become theocratic?” limkamput
Please point out to me when I even suggested that it has to be – as in must be? It is unfortunate for the rest of us, at least for me that you’re fond of making your own assumptions about what you think others are saying and then moving from there to make your argument!
Laws are made by people’s representatives. Any constitution can be changed by the people. Laws are supposed to be upheld by the government, but the government is also elected by the people (save for communism).
Limkamput, let me give you a dose of reality. Let’s say in 50 years’ time your descendants have a piece of land in Kg Attap, and the religious authorities want to build a surau on it. Your descendants object because it is the ancestral property, and you have incurred sweat and blood to earn it. In short, your descendants think it is “priceless”. You seriously think you can win in a court of law then ? You seriously think that a court will rule in your favour based on the concept of no willing seller ? You think the state will not invoke compulsory acquisition in favour of the religious department ? You think you will gain sympathy in the court of public opinion if you try to publicise it ?
You know why we have to remove this corrupt government ? It is precisely that this government’s policies have widened the gap between the rich and the poor. And when the poor is mainly from one race, you are merely inviting the inevitable to occur in the future – rebellion with religious overtones. The poor will have nothing to cling on except for their religious beliefs and when they become giddy with religion, nothing is going to get in the way, especially if their percentage keeps increasing.
UMNO knows this, but they don’t care because they already have plans for their children in London, Perth, Singapore, etc. If you really want your children to have a fair shot for the future, we have to get rid of UMNO and their thieving ways.
If secularism is to have a chance, we have to narrow the gap between the rich and the poor. UMNO can’t reform itself, so we must force the issue and get them out of government. Hopefully once they are out of government, they can come out with true leaders who don’t have to wave the keris, or shout slogans to survive. If the PR we elect can’t do it, then we have to elect others who can at the next GE.
Limkamput,
Let me re-word what I just wrote in more stronger terms.
It is a waste of space and everybody’s time to in effect indulge in arguments with yourself, after attributing remarks said to have been made by others when no such remarks were made. It calls for unnecessary rebuttals followed by re-rebuttals on your part, more often than not abrasive in nature and distracting to many of us.
Cheng On Soo,
Please check your facts before making a factual statement. There are less than a handfull of nations with 100% Muslims (and not 99.99999%) and all of them are Islamic states or if you prefer theocratic states.And TURKEY IS NOT ONE OF THEM!!!!
Godfather, what you are saying is that it is inevitable that the trend will move toward Islamic/theocratic (as Muslim population increases). My position is with proper inculcation and open dynamism (which we must start now), it is not necessary so. So 50 years from now, my land in Kg Attap will remain mine. Even if they want it for development, they will request so with civility and respect for the law and constitution. And if the judiciary is called to arbitrate, it will do so with professionalism and respect for diversity and individual rights.
If you and I are alive by then, I will buy you bak-kut-teh in Raja Laut. Provided that our teeth are still intact.
undergrad2, i have no desire to engage with you. You put up whatever you need to put up, i will do so with mine. Let others read and judge. I need not explain everything i understand or misunderstand. Even if I misunderstand, it could be you not able to write properly. I have already said so, go back and read line by line what you wrote and see whether one can imply what I implied. I do not want to proceed further with you. Where is Bernadette today?
talking about teeth, i am suffering these few days, went to see dentist 4 times already, but ths discomfort is still there. yes i still want to see bakkutteh around even though i can only drink the soup.
Talking about Turkey (and I don’t mean Kasim Amat’s master in Putrajaya), there have been attempts to push the constitution more towards a theocratic state in recent years. So far the courts have been ruling against all these attempts, and so far the parties pushing for the Islamic agenda have not dared push them to the point of requiring a nationwide referendum. Turkey’s inflation is now running over 20 pct, and the gap between the rich and the poor is widening. The EU is worried, and this is one of the reasons for not wanting to admit Turkey into the EU despite the years of application by the Turkish government.
I would say that the chances of Turkey going more and more Islamic are greater than ever before.
Come on Ahpek !
I said nearly 100 % (88% or more) muslim. If U insist to find country with 100 % (not 99.99999 %) muslim, I think U cannot find one in this globalized world.
Want to talk fact? ok 99.99999 %, means only 1 out of 10 million is not in the group intended. where to find, even can find, still cannot meet yr requirement??
“undergrad2, i have no desire to engage with you.” limkamput
You just did.
“..go back and read line by line what you wrote and see whether one can imply what I implied.”
Please quote to me which part of what I wrote that a reasonable person would imply the way you did.
“I do not want to proceed further with you. Where is Bernadette today?” limkamput
How convenient! And who may I ask is Benardete?
Sorry, your response was so fast, i miss one of your posting. The fight for for a more open and liberal society i was talking about would certainly include change in government if needed.
“My question is: must a country with 90% Muslim population become theocratic?” limkamput
Please point out to me when I even suggested that it has to be – as in must be? It is unfortunate for the rest of us, at least for me that you’re fond of making your own assumptions about what you think others are saying and then moving from there to make your argument!
You’re free of course to give it a pass! And we know why.
Here, let me re-post what I posted earlier.
“…I still have my doubts especially here in a country where the Muslims are a dominant group with not a few fundamentalists amongst the group.One would only have to look at Europe.Although there is no possibility of islamic states being formed there as yet they have made their presence felt …” Ahpek
Correct me if I’m wrong. It is your belief that Malaysia is on track to becoming an Islamic state if it is not already one now – much like Marx’s dialectical materialism, an air of inevitability. May we know the foundation for that belief?
You seem to have merged the issue of an Islamic state and the influence that Islamic religious fanaticism or extremism or values have on government policies. Rather than engaged in the semantics of what is an Islamic state, it is more useful to dwell on the issue of the growing influence of Islamic values in the lives of ordinary Malaysians. It is a fact that Islamic values have intruded into the private lives of its citizens today more so than it was in the 60s. And it started with Anwar Ibrahim in the mid 70s, the Prime Minister-in-Waiting today! Let’s not forget that.
In the United States the influence of Christian evangelicalism over the country’s foreign policy has interesting ramifications and you may want to read “The Family” by Jeff Sharlett – released this year, and already a New York best seller.
What is happening in Europe for some years now is the migration (legal and illegal) of Muslims from Eastern Europe, West Asia and the Middle East. You are right about the likelihood of an Islamic state emerging in Europe right now. Right now these migrants are living on the fringes of society in Western Europe and U.K. with high unemployment rates reported among them and substandard housing, lack of health care etc. Their increasing numbers today mean the governments can no longer ignore them. With the current higher birth rates reported among them and with a low birth rate and an aging population among Caucasians, who knows where the fast changing demographics will lead over the course of centuries? A Muslim Europe is not an impossibility given the fact that Islam is growing at a much higher and faster rate than all other religions.
So where in what I wrote is there even the slightest reference to Malaysia likely to be a theocratic state once the Muslim population reaches 90??
…i.e. 90%
Now if you insist: read here,
There will never be and can never be an Islamic state in Malaysia as the term ‘Islamic state’ is understood today – as is the case in countries like Pakistan. Undergrad2
Never say never. It could become reality maybe in another 50 – 100 years when the population mix alters drastically from what it is today. godfather
Hence my reference and emphasis to “today”. Undergrad2
It is safe to interpret “today” as in “our life time” – even in our children’s lifetime some would maintain, until demographics change like you say it would over 50 to 100 years.
Over 100 years through a policy of attrition, non-Malays would have migrated to other countries. Those that remain will exist on the fringe of a predominantly Muslim society, a permanent underclass without representation in the country’s institutions. I am counting on your children and your children’s childen and mine will not be among those.
Didn’t you both imply that Islamic/theocratic state is inevitable (at least almost inevitable)? And the assumption both of you used was Muslim population. That per se determines Islamic/theocratic state. Now, I disagree with that. I said we still have a choice, and we must exercise the choice now, not later. Once the country has become theocratic, there is now way to reverse it. What we need is to contest and to challenge whose idea is better (even though the majority of the population are Muslim now and in the future) – to go for open liberal society or a closed theocratic state. If we do not fight, we lose by default.
…and this is what I wrote earlier:
“There will never be and can never be an Islamic state in Malaysia as the term ‘Islamic state’ is understood today – as is the case in countries like Pakistan.
My 2-cents.”
…which you have conveniently omitted so you could make your argument! That is typical.
If this is not clear enough I don’t know what is:
“There will never be and can never be an Islamic state in Malaysia …”
Good night!
Please read what I have just posted, undergrad2. I think you tacitly agreed with godfather as you went along. That was how I interpret. If I have misunderstood you, so be it.
Folks, we have bigger fish to fry, so I suggest that you guys adopt the Beatles’ “Let It Be”.
Cheng On Soo,
I ask the question to limkamput ‘Name me a country with 100% muslims that is not an Islamic state. You came in to say you can by naming Turkey.Nearly 100% you said and now you say 88%.I did not pose those questions.I pose a question pertaining to countries with 100% Muslim population.
Now you come out with another erroneos statement …there is no country with 100% Muslim population.This is something that is factual and one cannot argue to win over a factual statement.Only in a subjectives can one argue and win if one is persuasive enough with the use of logic and evidence.
When, one quote the population of a country is nearly 100% this or that. Nearly 100% can means anything from 85% to 99.9% depend in how one interprete it. It is an approximation. When a person say 100%, he usually mean 99% to 100% (unless that person emphasize it, like U)..
Said what U want. I maintained that there is no one country ( country, not city, village, district, area, community, province etc) in this world that have 100 % (in strict sense, 99.99999 % is not good enough, following your definition) muslim.
Even if U quote data from any sources that say 100%, (they still means not more than 99.99999% which stlll fail by your definition). muslim in any country (even well known, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, Iraq, Bahrain, Qatar, Yemen, Oman, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Libya, Turkey, Tunisia, Morocco, Algeria, Mauritania, Senegal, Sudan, Somali, Maldives, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Kirgizstan, Uzbekistan, etc)
None lah 1
We all know, I am sure about creative accounting but I am now beginning to realise there are also creative debaters arriving in our midst in Unkle Lim’s blog!
“Correct me if I am wrong.It is believed that Malaysia’s is on track to become an Islamic state if it is not already one now-much like Marx’s dialectical materialism, an air of inevitability.May we know the foundation of that belief?”.
First I’ll start by saying that my starting remarks have no referance whatsoever to you.I find in you a learned man ever careful in choosing words carefully and most of your arguments are pretty persuasive and forceful.
Whilst I cast doubt on your assertion that Malaysia is never (that’s a pretty strong word) going to be an Islamic State,it does not immediately suggest that I am asserting the opposite direction ie Malaysia will certainly become an Islamic State although I must add that I am not disinclined to object to the possibility that Malaysia could become one in the future.Becoming an Islamic State or a communist state for that matter is a number game.If enough people root for it, it will become.Islam Religion is always for the establishment of an Islamic state and it will advocate any means to achieve that ie whether by incremental steps or by deception (come what may). Lee Wan Yan has written about this at length and Jeffrey’s ‘ boiling the frog’ syndrome.Their arguments certainly have great impact on us to envisage such a possibility.It may not happen in 20 years time but who is to tell it won’t in 50 years time.
This is where you and I differ, undergrad 2.You haven’t succeeded in persuading me that Malaysia will NEVER BE AND CAN NEVER BE AN ISLAMIC STATE.
In this fast changing world, when one talks about says, 30 years from now, anything can happen, so don’t be so sure to state that Malaysia will NEVER BE AND CAN NEVER BE AN ISLAMIC STATE.
“This is where you and I differ, undergrad 2.You haven’t succeeded in persuading me that Malaysia will NEVER BE AND CAN NEVER BE AN ISLAMIC STATE.” AhPek
That’s right! Please tell the resident gatekeeper that was what I said and in unequivocal terms too! It is just a bare assertion, however, on my part and is not meant to be anything more than that. It is not meant to convince anybody.
Like I said earlier, time is better spent in dealing with the current problems rather than speculate on what is to come say in the next five decades – especially when that helps to avoid the semantics of what is really an Islamic state etc. Allowing for the possibility of an Islamic state of whatever strain or form replacing the present secular government with its state religion (personally I prefer the term ‘official’ religion as I think the term ‘state’ would put it one notch higher than it really is) in the immediate foreseeable future or not so immediate foreseeable future, the fact that Islamic values have for years now permeated and are permeating almost every aspect of the lives of non-Muslims today is enough to convince many of us Malaysians to get out and stay out. It is that intrusive socially compared to the 1960s – we are not dealing with the political and the economic yet.
I do not know if we have anything that we could call Malaysia’s foreign policy but if we do then the influence of Islamic values, would leave no small mark. There is a marked increase in anti U.S. sentiment since the invasion of Iraq. I used the case of Christian evangelicalism and its influence over U.S. foreign policy as an example of how religion could exert its influence in an area commonly regarded as secular.
Yes, you’re right. It is hardly a convincing argument that Malaysia will not become an Islamic whatever that is. In my opinion, time is better spent in discussing the influence Islam has over government policies today. Let’s not wait for the coming of the Islamic state. Some may say it is already here i.e. Malaysia is already half an Islamic state and a full Islamic state with shariah law replacing the secular civil law based on the English common law, is impossible because of the sizeable non-Muslim minority.
Non-Muslims non-Malays are packing up, making plans for a life elsewhere as we speak if they’ve not already done so.
Godfather Says:
Today at 12: 24.32 (6 hours ago)
Folks, we have bigger fish to fry, so I suggest that you guys adopt the Beatles’ “Let It Be”.
I am here to share my thoughts with others and hope in the exchange we all could learn something new each day. It is very distracting when someone insists on putting words into your mouth, deliberately manipulating your remarks to suit his needs so he could go on his usual tirade. If I were to keep quiet then it will stick.
We do not need to go further than to ask this question:
What sort of person is he who chooses to rely on what is purportedly implied when there are clear written expressions to the contrary?
Someone with a TOEFL score of 250?
More like an IQ of 70.
Before the GE, I see everybody wanting to ‘team-up’ voting for PAS, saying that PAS is still OK to vote…. no problem with Islam, no problem as PAS is not into it’s Islamic agenda.
But I see PAS is still the Islamic Tiger in sheepskin. I voiced out strongly in this blog against PAS’s hidden agenda & for DAP & PKR to go alone or even DAP to go solo!
Now 100 days after the GE, you see what I said is true!!!
Now in this blog everybody lashing out at PAS!
Dear Farish,
I refer to your statement that said UMNO lost all Malay majority areas in West Coast of Peninsular Malaysia. With due respect to you, please do some fact finding first.
Need I remind you that UMNO won in many Malay majority areas such as Sepang, Kubang Pasu, Pasir Salak, Lenggong, Kepala Batas, Larut, Padang Rengas, Kuala Pilah, and many others.
The truth is that the political party that you really cherish , DAP, has been playing with racial sentiments by scaring away non Malays with regards to Keris issue. I saw the speech by Hishamuddin. At no time, he tried to intimidate non Malays or playing to the gallery.
May I humbly remind you of what Raja Muda of Perak said 2 days ago in Kuala Kangsar. I mean no disrespect but I found that you are not being fair no UMNO.
As for Alenath, religion and race are 2 potent forces. Perhaps you will know what PAS is all about. In the previous election, PAS openly distributed “risalah” reminding Muslims that it is haram to vote for non Muslim candidate. Yes Sir. It happened in the constituent where the current Menteri Besar of Perak won. His opponent is from MIC.
PAS talks about Islamic state. But its actions is nothing but Islamic.