Leaders of DAP, PKR and PAS met in Petaling Jaya today and took the logical next step of the March 8 political tsunami – proposing the establishment of a new front of the three political parties to be tentatively known as PAKATAN RAKYAT.
A joint statement issued after the meeting reads:
The leaders of KeADILan, DAP and PAS met today in furtherance of the meeting held on the 18th of March 2008.
Today’s meeting was attended by, among others, Dato’ Seri Anwar Ibrahim, YB Lim Kit Siang, YB Dato’ Seri Tuan Guru Haji Abdul Hadi Awang and YB Datin Seri Wan Azizah Wan Ismail.
In today’s meeting, we have proposed to consolidate the cooperation between the three parties under the name “PAKATAN RAKYAT”. This name has been proposed pending confirmation by the respective parties.
Pakatan Rakyat pledges to uphold the rights and interests of all Malaysians, regardless of religion or race, as enshrined in the Constitution.
With the results of the recent elections, the state governments of Kelantan, Kedah, Pulau Pinang, Perak and Selangor will be known as Pakatan Rakyat state governments. The policies of these governments will be conducted in accordance with the policies of Pakatan Rakyat.
To further mutual understanding regarding such policies, a convention of all Pakatan Rakyat elected representatives of Parliament and State Assemblies will be held on the 27th of April 2008.
We have developed and strengthened the structure of Pakatan Rakyat by creating under the Leadership Council, consisting of the leaders of the three parties, a Joint Secretariat consisting of three leaders from each of the three parties. This joint Secretariat will be tasked with building the foundation and framework of the Pakatan Rakyat for ratification by the Leadership Council.
Uncle Kit,
Cheers to DAP! Cheers to PKR! Cheers to PAS! Cheers to Pakatan Rakyat that we have been waiting all along.
uncle Lim,
the selangor exco issue, still no updates?
haiz … why before election, all the politicians have sweet smiles, sweet until can get diabetes … but after election, want to complain also not entertain …
This is excellent. With Pakatan Rakyat, all opposition parties can now speak in one language avoiding misunderstanding among one another. This also can be regarded as strategic alternative party to BN.
I am confident with this new understanding Pakatan Rakyat is not far away from ruling federal government.
Congrats to all our leaders.
PKR and DAP is part of the pact, please ensure that the country remained secular, fair, progressive and take into account the multicultural nature of the country or else…
Greetings,
A small step by malaysians, a giant leap for malaysians politics…
The recent commotion in Ipoh should be an eye-opener on how the Pakatan Rakyat should move. Its true and accepted that we should steer clear of racial politics; with candidated for party or government chosen on merit and not on fixed quotas.
Things did not turn out too well for the moment, as the DAP candidate involved was shortsighted and failed to recognize the consequences of his act to the party, the Proposed Pakatan and the state government. The sloganeering for a Malaysian Malaysia has fallen on deaf ears; the need for time to heal the 50 years of racial divide.
The formation of Pakatan Rakyat will be well recieved, a word of caution though; let not the Pakatan be dominated by one party, however big it would grow to be. There should be an understanding of equal partnership with equal opportunities for all irrespective of race,religion,caste, creed or gender.
I personally would have preferred “Barisan Rakyat” the cause for which we so earnestly advocated during the last elections.
Uncle Lim,
This has the potential to be exploited by BN.
DAP+PKR+PAS = PAKATAN RAKYAT = ISLAMIC STATE?
Dear Uncle Kit,
Congrats to all 3 parties within Pakatan Rakyat or the People’s Alliance for reaching this agreement (pending approval by respective parties). The next thing PR should do is form a cabinet in waiting to mirror the performance of all the cabinet ministers in BN…:)
Cheers YB Lim!
That’s the way to go.
If there are any diagreements among partners,please keep it private.
And solve it in within the 4 walls of the Pakatan.
Please stay united.
Today 5,tomorrow Malaysia.
In-between, you can have Sarawak for supper!
2 years down the road is just like the blink of an eye.
LETS DO IT!
Thats a wise move. Whatever name it is…it brings us towards a new era in Malaysian politics.
Chinese no longer fear the PAS so much as they are now moving along moderation lines. Malays are openly supporting and voting for DAP. Indians are united now vis-a-vis Hindraf and are solidly behing PR now.
Even the stupid Buntong ADUn case will not derail this pakatan.
However, I propose that all elected reps be it ADUNs or MPs must undergo a Public Relations training with the main emphasis on emotion control and service with a smile.
The recent emotional outburst by some elected reps including you, LKS are examples of uncontrolled emotions. Train yourself to better handle all kinds of situation.
We must move along in a more professional way and ensure all reps are well trained in all aspects of life and this will definitely help to ensure quality reps who are trully willing to serve the rakyat.
We should never be too old to learn. LKS yourself should also set the example by attending such courses.
Belive me….it will help all 3 parties in PR tremendously.
Go for it.
Good name. Better than Barisan Alternatif as that smacks of part of the tainted name of the other Barisan. PR sounds good too. A breakaway from the racial politics of “barisans”.
Hello,
A united PR is critical for its’ success….no racial based politic aah
The Perak fiasco nearly torn the front apart with selfish request.
Requests should be made under it’s own party preview and results in unanimuous decision. Do not let individual demand break the unity and let’s ensure cooperation and selflessness move the united front.
Congrats to the 3 parties for formalising the electoral pact. Together it will be possible to compete seriously to form the next federal administration.
One suggestion I would offer to the states of Penang, Perak and Selangor is to set up a central purchasing office as if this run properly, costs of supplies can be reduced by 10 to 15%.
ric_23,
I think we are too naive. Now that they have won. Those questions that they don’t know how to answer they will not entertain us. I just hope Pakatan Rakyat will not end up like BN. Being too arrogant will pay it’s price!
Great visionary strategies….PAKATAN RAKYAT will definitely led the way…
“The policies of these governments will be conducted in accordance with the policies of Pakatan Rakyat”.
Set a bye-law for any MP or Assemblyman who goes against it to be remove for not championing this policy’s. Then ask them to visit
eyeyogacentre.com to get their vision improve.
Well done and keep the good work..PAKATAN RAKYAT..untuk warga Malaysia
saubing, wat to do, business as usual, except it will takes longer and harder now to heal. The next election is 5 yrs from now, we will need to educate those young voters who will be voting that who they should vote for right from the beginning.
This is something that I have been waiting for. A 2-party system bidding and contesting to run the country. At the moment, the quality of candidates/people from certain parties seem a bit lacking.
Ever bickering over personal issues and threatening to resign. These people should not be put as candidates in the next GE. Another 5 years is enough to vet any prospects.
UMNO is very subdued, very quiet. Dunno whether any keris will be kissed this time around. If he keeps kissing the keris, I keep voting for PR. MCA should give up BN. PR seems a logical choice and more viable.
Way to go guys.. At least the Rakyat will have more confidence in the “” Government in waiting”
I think you must treat a political party like a company.
If one owns a few shares one cannot expect the CEO to give a weekly or monthly report on how the operations are being run.
You need to attend the AGM and ask questions there. For a political party, one needs to see how they perform and how they answer queries closer to the next elections.
Better still, go and join the party and contribute your ideas there.
Now i started to worry … Pakatan Rakyat sound very convincing … but how about the formation of the leaders?
i think this one should discuss now at the very beginning, else will create chaos later … similar to selangor exco formation …
Will Anwar Ibrahim, Lim Kit Siang, Lim Guan Eng, Hadid Awang, Chong Eng ARE SIDELINED in the formation? Since achievements, capability and experience are no longer a consideration (from wat happen in selangor exco)?
Logically, Pakatan Rakyat should also uphold the constitution that Malaysia is a secular state with Islam as her official religion.
Now begins the glorious days for Malaysia.
I like that name.
Now lets work on a logo.
I would prefer one with an open palm, with two more superimposed on the first one and all in the same direction. No criss crossing.
Congratulation Pakatan Rakyat!
Congratulation to all Malaysians!
Lets pray for wisdom & understanding in the formation of the shadow cabinet or the next Federal cabinet, which ever come first.
lots of T.A.R.O. at work. :)
We are on the right track. No worry for those who are worried about PAS islamic state. Everyone who really want a true Malaysia for ALL MALAYSIAN ON EQUAL STANDING will know what they can and cannot do.
Now Pakatan Rakyat (PR) will have to come out with a common platform to work on. All elected rep will have to take the same common stand, that is no race base politics but to serve all Malaysians.
GE 13 – No matter what, we must ensure that umno bn do not regain the power like they had for the past fifty years.
Pakatan Rakyat (PAKAT)? Sounds like merely a “pact” to me. Or maybe you are all out to “pocket” the rakyat? It just does not have the right “ring” to it.
Why don’t you call yourselves PERIKATAN RAKYAT (PERAK) – the Peoples’ Alliance? Sounds nicer with brilliant “silver” lining.
Even though you may have all formed this “Pakatan”, the bottom line remains the credibility of the leadership. Many of your leaders are suspect with dubious qualifications and experience.
[deleted Speculation incorrect – Admin]
Alot of the Pakatan MPs and SAs are unknown personalities. We do not know much about their background, experience and qualifications. One big problem in setting up the various state governments had been the lack of qualified people and their dubious qualifications.
I for one would really like to know more about many of them so that I can be confident of them. Would the Pakatan members care to share with us the profiles of all their elected MPs and SAs? These can be easily uploaded on the internet for all of us to see. Any doubts that we many have will then be either confirmed or erased. Its about Transparency, Integrity and Accountability together with Responsibility.
How about the DAP starting the ball rolling?
I hope that the new coalition keep to their principles at time of forming.
Remember it is the rakyat that put all these parties to power.
Make sure that the common agenda is kept and not each individual’s. Like PAS, I hope they do not propound formationof Islamic state half way thru’.
We the rakyat are wary of such tricks!!!!
If we are fooled . that is the end. It would be back to BN.
I’m looking forward to have one website to unify the 3 parties, Pakatan Rakyat. We should also have a mass celebration, to recruit all new members to serve the rakyat.
ric_23,
I think we will never get answer from the Selangor EXCO issue cause no transparency there. I used to be very enthuisiastic about what opposition party can do to our country. but after GE 12, i feel that some of the opposition MP or SA also look at their own benefits first before they even start to serve the Rakyat. So i reallly don expect much from BN or PR
when can we have a non malay prime minister? When will the coloured barriers be broken down? Why are we waiting for DSAI? Now is the time to rise up YB Lim! Be a Malaysian for all Malaysians! Its time to say goodbye to feudalism and embrace TRUE democracy!
Before the election, I tell all non-Muslim that there is nothing to fear about PAS for a very simple reason: Even without saying so, BN were already making this into an Islamic country by their court action. And action (of BN) speaks louder than words (of PAS).
Why are we (DAP) playing 2nd fiddle all the time? I think we must be bold enough to declare that we are here to lead and to heal the great divided between the races. We are here to lend a helping hand. We are here to enrich, empower and to share responsiblity in bring economic, social and spiritual prosperity to all.
Gosh I am so Happy lah!!! congratulation Uncle Lim!!! Hope Pakatan Rakyat will be a great start for us MALAYSIAN!
p/s: Dont worry lah.. PAS is not Taliban… i’m sure they also know the enviroment of malaysia that consist of multiracial people… and they also know what is ‘wasatiah (kesederhanaan)’ means… if PAS are so fundimental…. sudah lama Kelantanese Chinese had gone to other state… UMNO keep telling non Malays that PAS are anti non muslim… and at the end… UMNO are anti non muslim… and some people still belive it!
….TAK KENAL MAKA TAK CINTA….
Sorry, this might not sing along well in this topic, but YB, is there anything the new Pakatan Rakyat can do, like give the people an alternative news avenue apart from ST*R and the likes….because I find it they are still messing around with their biased reporting, they are lying like there is no tomorrow, I have boycotted them but I feel many people are still being taken for a ride…save them to save Malaysia!
Anyway, cheers to PAKATAN RAKYAT!!!
Ada Pakatan Rakyat!
Ada Suara Rakyat!
pr long a waited for all malaysian, a new hope for malaysian we no longer vote for only bn, hopefully pr will win the next GE and catch all [ correct ap klang palace keris many many more!!!!!!!!!!!
Congratulations to PAKATAN RAKYAT !
While the name itself says Rakyat..lets hope Rakyats are remembered always by the Pakatan!….no rakyat no pakatan!!!
Had enough of BN…its time for PR to lead ! I am 100% with you all.
Just a tiny reminder from my Guru ‘ karma is not fate..for man acts with free will, creating his own destiny.The Vedas (Hindu Holy Scripture) tells us : if we sow goodness, we will reap goodness ; if we sow evil, we will reap evil’.
Lets join hands in good spirits for a better Malaysia – corruption free;human rights upheld. ……………makkal sakthi forever !
what are the consequences if there are mass crossovers from the east side? Can the parliment be dissolved again to pave way for a fresher mandate? I suppose we the rakyat are the real losers while you politicians squabble over power grabbing. Can we for once get down to seriously looking into the plight of the rakyats in your own constituencies?
Why are people saying….there must be certain number of Indian, certain number of Chinese and certain number of Malay in the EXCO? This is back to old racial line of politic that’s the NO.1 fault of BN. So do we still want more of the same?
If the Chinese & Indian wanted to be treated as equal to the Malay etc, then stop thinking like a Chinese or Indian. Everyone should now start thinking…”I am a Malaysian”.
BTW, I will never ever vote for that A Sivasubramaniam in Perak who sleep, eat, think, action along the same old racial line. Ever!
Hi lextcs,
first or second doesn’t matter, becoz we can learn from everybody and everybody can learn from us. We enrich ourselves just like a modern society should be, we serve in order to lead…politics is politics, some things can’t be change because we are not there yet…just not yet, just as we are sceptical about PAS’s ideology so are PAS sceptical about other parties’ ideology.
Malaysia just need some more time
All good and nice. Can it last? I am a Sarawakian and one vote for pakatan rakyat, the next round. If only if, all those ‘non-malay ceilings’ can be taken away from the constitutions at both the federal and state levels. See u round the next time.
Yeah KKK
I totally agree with you…I find it very annoying that they go public with their comments of quitting and all…it just give the enemy something to rhyme on. Case of the Batu Gajah MP also should not have happened, every elected reps should serve according to parties policies and not make a particular constituency their own little country!
Hi dudes
Congratulations dudes for the formation of PAKATAN RAKYAT !
First of all, would like to comment on few issues surrounding the 5 states that we have. I hope no power hunting by our fellow assemblymen and I hope Pakatan Rakyat can be the stepping stone to answer the the difficult situations that arises among the parties.
Again, HIDUP PAKATAN RAKYAT!!!! and wish our dream comes true for a fairer regime in Malaysia.
I just wonder when can we learn. Just look at our neighbur Singapore. Their Government and their MSM will not promote non-chinese or chinese theory. Even their elected President is an Indian. But they are known as Singaporean. they are “one people, one nation, one Singapore”. Hope we can become a malaysian malaysia soon…..
Dear Pakatan Rakyat,
While it is good to have DAP, PKR and PAS unified under one name, please don’t forget to promote the name “Pakatan Rakyat” among the people and youngsters, who are indifferent to politics. If they don’t know what “Pakatan Rakyat” is and what they stand for, how you expect them to vote for you!
Distributing caps, pencils and student pocket-files printed with the “Pakatan Rakyat” label to school children, and organizing painting competitions and quizzes in a supermarket under the name “Pakatan Rakyat” are workable ways to tell people such a party exists.
The rakyat has been deprived 50 yrs, the Malay looks like getting the benefit but it is not e.g. the 5% Bumiputra discount this Bumiputra is meant Malaysian (ultimately the major benefit are UMNO putra) the rich is getting richer and the poor will continue to be burden by ricing fuel prices, ricing food prices, and soon all the poor will have to take bus because unable to own a decent transport. When that happen don’t worry Khairy already make Rapid Buses for those who can’t afford to own a car, then Pak Lah son is ready for Scomi monorail expanding to each and every Malaysian. They will continue to exploit all Malaysian, Pak Lah will said “Ubah Gaya!” till you start paying all ur money to use their transportation. They are using Rakyat money to build then robe from them. Rapid Penang and Rapid KL all money from Rakyat, but is controlled and manipulated by Khairy. The cronies controlled the television, radio and press, whereas the opposition “Pakatan Rakyat” has just pave the foundation in these 5 states. It takes the Federal Govt. more than a week to settle the MB issues, but it only take 3 days for DAP to resolve the matter, which party is better?
saubing,
Singapore cannot be used as example lah .. as already explained be4 …
http://my2cents2u.blogspot.com/
Congratulations to all – DAP, PKR and PAS!
Finally, a step in the right direction. Yeah, a great leap for Malaysian politics.
Hope this union strengthens the bond and brings out the best in everyone, creating better, firmer understanding, trust and sincerity between parties concerned.
Hidup Malaysia!
March 8th was the “tipping point” that brought about sweeping changes in the political landscape of Malaysia. April 1st, with the formation of Pakatan Rakyat has become the “point of inflection”, from which going forward we can expect the direction of malaysian politics to take a course that is based on a two party system, with equality of all peoples irrespective of race, religion or political ideology being the basis for its democratic principle.
A suggestion is that the Pakatan Rakyat need to quickly establish mechanisms to gather continuous inputs/feedback from the people on their progress so that the voice of the people continue to be heard and seen to be heard by the people’s government.
when can saubing & ric23_my stop harping on the old Selangor issue of EXCOs? If you are so adamant to the changes, then just ignore this blog site lah. Simple isnt it? Even Teng (whom I supported to be an EXCO) has voiced out his views to serve the rakyat esp Sg Pinang people. What to talk somemore???
We are now looking forward and its a very important thing that DAP, PKR & PAS are finally together to form a coalition. Isnt that exciting? We must look forward and be positive but must also not hold our hopes too high becuz its all a motly crew and this requires time to cement the coalition into a strong ONE force.
Of course there will be backstabbers (hope the 2 of you don’t be one) and lots of detractors like the dumb dumb Sivasubramaniam and others who may derail the coalition with their selfish demands and their own gains for power.
Nevertheless, we should give our support to PR just as we have given to “BR” during the GE. This is indeed a serious move which warrants our support and make sure that BN shall be dead not only in the 5 states but in the whole of Malaysia.
Malaysia Bolih
Pakatan Rakyat Bolih
chanjoe,
No matter how nice the name of party coalition is … or how nice the logo of the colliation is …
it is useless as long as they did not stick back to their ideology during the election campaign …
at the end, it will just be another brand of BeeAnn …
that’s why must make noise … instead of you all just living in fantasy … similar to UMMNO Putra …
I really do not care who is the PM , be he Anwar or Lim Kit Siang or Karpal Singh or Hadi . As long as they can deliver and free from corruption, we should give them the support.
BN has proven to be very terrible. Let us hope BR can do better!!!
http://www.harakahdaily.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13643&Itemid=28
Demi ketuanan Melayu, sanggupkah Adun Umno Perak sertai PAS?
Mat Zain Mat Isa
Tue | Apr 01, 08 | 12:01:58 pm MYT
….
Soalnya, apakah mereka sanggup berbuat begitu demi ketuanan Melayu? Rasanya?payah la sikit kot.?Maka mahu tidak mahu buat masa ini semua pihak, terutama golongan yang terlalu mendewakan soal ketuanan Melayu di Perak perlu menerima hakikat yang ada. ?
Penyelesaian lebih baik mungkin akan datang dalam masa empat atau lima tahun akan datang. Cukuplah beri undi kepada calon-calon Umno. Jika benar-benar mahu jumlah Adun Melayu di pihak pemerintah di Perak bertambah, pastikan semua calon PAS menang. ?
Umno pula jangan menjadi batu penghalang kepada agenda PAS meramaikan Adun Melayu, jika ia benar-benar mahu ketuanan Melayu di Perak dipulihkan. – lanh
Pakatan Rakyat = Makhal Sakhti = Power of One
BN is even more shaky now.
Syabas to one for all and all for one. The way towards the formation of a Bangsa Malaysia Truly Asia.
Make sure also that this new PR has got proper PR to answer all emails sent to them. Worse still, some Aduns don’t even have email. Jangan bikin tak serupa cakap.
These three have become the founding members of this “new political party”. They are in “near equal strength”. Let there be respect and the status quo maintained. New political groups may want to join the group later. The road ahead is not going to be smooth, but with a clear vision and determination the goal can be achieved. Congratulations to PAS, DAP and PKR.
ric23_my….if you so tak suka what this great thing about the Pakatan Rakyat, then you are entitled to your own views and in fact you can withdraw your support for the 3 parties.
No one is tying your hands or forcing you to support PR. Its our suka to support PR and if we don’t allow them the chance to perform, then why don’t you go back to support BeeAnn?
We SHOULD support them so mthat they have the mandate to perform. They need time too ok? Let time prove to us and if they are no good as what you said they are. then just vote them out lah…simple as that…..nothing to get so worked up about.
Time will prove everything but it will definitely not 100%. Sometimes when there are only 2 evils to chose, which will you chose? We sure chose the less of the 2 evils right.
So if you don’t want to support, then go to the Toyol blog lah….let us loyal supporter continue here ok? After all Toyol blog needs people like you to help support his cause to fight for the UMNO youth head. Sorry no harm meant. just being realistic.
They are not there to read email, they are there to serve the ppl, and i don’t mind if they don’t reply me, as long as they shows result by pin pointing the fraud done in the previous administration.
Long live Kit Siang!
Long live DAP!
Long live Pakatan Rakyat!
chanjoe,
Use your eyes to see, and use your ears to listen … instead of acting like UMMNO Putra …
ppl support, but dont blindly support. Give some positive comments if we see wrong … If Terasa Kok ask u whether she look like britney spear, i guess u will say YES?
Coalition should get back to their ideology before have the plan to form a federal government …
(1) Shout so loud about malaysian malaysia
– After election, argue for allocation of seats by race quota. Race for deputy mentri besar post also
– Some even worse, widthdraw due to owen race not represent the quota that they expected
(2) Shout so loud about anti-corruption
– But the selangor exco do not want to declare their own asset, due to “family problem”
if like that also cannot comment … then there is no difference if compare to BeeAnn …
Alamak…I realized I am trying to pacify a fanatic….well…its no point trying to clear your head.
If the 3 parties stick to their own ideology, then sorry lah….no PR will materialise. We might as well go back to fighting each other and allow your BeeAnn to cont rule lah.
I rest my case on you…so hopeless and just hope you will get a clear head one day….pity pity pity.
chanjoe said: “…if you so tak suka…” Hmmm, where have I heard that before?
My father always said, with the Malays at least “boleh bawak bincang”, but with the Chinese, “hampas pun tak dapat”.
The acid test will be how the “pakatan” treats requests and demands from various groups like Dong Jiao Zhong (which I am sure they will couch it as equal opportunity for all) or GPMS (which would want to invoke Article 153).
Either way I am reverting back to the struggles of HINDRAF. Its clear, concise and no nonsense.
chanjoe,
i guess most of the ppl will agree for these 2 COMMON ideology, right?
(1) Malaysian Malaysia
(2) Anti-Corruption
If these 2 ideologies also cannot stand firm to implement/practice it … then how want to convince ppl to trust on the new form of coalition?
Arguments on allocation of seat by race quota and relunctant to declare selangor exco assets …. is it my own view? Or is it a truth that happened out there?
chanjoe,
for ur statement “…if you so tak suka…” …. doenst sound similar to voice from UMMNO as well like this?
“You kalao tak suka, then you balik cina …”
This shows that u only want to hear good thing, DAP will going to die soon if got more and more DAP Putra like you …
I am delighted that finally we have a Pakatan Pakyat(PR). I strongly believe that soon, I mean real soon PR will be forming the next Federal Govt. Why? Because PR is harnessing this wind of change into a momentum that BN will find it hard to stop. Already, the BN’s Titanic thought to be unsunkerble is showing signs of distress with cracks forming within its ranks. Members are still licking their wound. Many are losts. Mutineers are calling for ABadawi to step down. Soon, factional leaders, disillusion, in this sinking Titanic do not get what they want will have to lead their members to find safe havens. Where else can they find such safe havens except PR. Why again? because no man’s an island.
PAKAT does not sound good in Hockkien ,it indicates cronyism ,nepotism ,jangan pakat -pakat ah :))
Has PAS abandoned its ideology of setting up an Islamic State in Malaysia?
According to the Chinese version of Malaysiakini, which provides free full-text news reports,
http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/80685
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????????
What Hadi Awang says is rather revealing. Firstly, he says that the PRIORITY is to push for principles agreed by all three parties. (i.e. While PAS’ own agenda is not the priority now, it has not been abandoned). Secondly, he declines to comment on whether PAS has abandoned its agenda of Islamic state when asked. However, his roundabout answer is pretty revealing: ‘What matters is not the label. What matters is what we aim at and what we do.’
I take it this way: ‘What matters is not whether the label “Islamic State” is still explicit in our public discourse. What matters is that …is still what we aim at and what we…’
Congratulations!
However, have we forgotten our East Malaysian brothers and sisters?
Maybe, it is a good start, but always remember our fellow brothers across the South China Sea.
Malaysians should welcome a two party system! [At least, we are miles ahead of Singapore in this area.] It gives the electorate an alternative and it keeps the ruling party on its toes, while holding office.
When the Conservatives fail to perform, the Labour sweeps in. When the Republicans invade another nation on questionable grounds, the Democrats capitalise on it and take over.
Can these three parties come to a common understanding? I say, “Yes!”
It is still Malay dominant, with a strong Islam emphasis and representation, with a Chinese dominant DAP, looking after the rest.
PKR should grow to be a Malay dominant multiracial party, while DAP grow to be a Chinese predominant multiracial party. PAS remains PAS, while we look forward to the Sabahans and Sarawakians to make the move for an alternate representation, something they are experts at.
Will BN be restored? It is possible that a great comeback is being planned.
Stay around till 2012, for the next bout…..BN vs PR. Either camp can sweep past the other, depending on what happens from now till then.
Change has arrived….. in the political atmosphere
…in the maturity of the electorate….in the choices available….hopefully …for the better.
Uncle Lim, Congratulation to Pakatan Rakyat!!! A new history chapter is made today in Malaysia. Looking forward for a better ,prosperous and peaceful Malaysia for all Malaysians!!!.
CONGRATULATIONS TO PAKATAN RAKYAT !!!
jame-sai, you seem to be pouring cold water whenever some thing good appears. Why are you so short sighted? You appear to be suspicious of others’ motives and actions. How often do you look into the mirror and ask yourself, how sincere are you to the other people?
HJ Angus’s suggestion is very practical and will certainly save the 5 states plenty by doing so. Yes, apply some modern management technique to differentiate P.R. from those shysters of BN!!
Based on BN’s past practices, saving could easily be over 200% for each project or purchase.
3 CHEERS for the new PAKATAN RAKYAT!!!!
In order for PR to work, avoid the issue of race and religion at all cost.
Well done DAP/PKR/PAS!!! We have never been so proud standing tall once again calling ourselves Rakyat Malaysia for the remarkable achievements since 8 March 2008. Never again we shall be living under oppression by so called ruling party aka corruption and power abuse tainted Barisan Nasional. We, rakyat Malaysia have succeeded in showing the doggies what’s the meaning of people’s power.
Carry on the good works guys! Never let small hick up like bickering of personal or race based agendas to break the coalition. Everyone in Pakatan Rakyat should be dispensable ie if YB Lim or DSAI or Hadi Awang or so and so MP retired or resigned next day, the coalition will still stand strong to carry out serving the rakyat and country. Wish to see Pakatan Rakyat doing great job in cleaning up the mess left over by BN starting from the town councils. That affects every rakyat and people will slowly have more confidence with PR. Slowly build your unity and strength then fight a good fight for the rakyat in the Parliament. We Rakyat Malaysia will ensure coming 13th General Election Pakatan Rakyat will take over the country and send those UMNO/MCA/MIC doggies/robbers/liars into criminal house. Yes, We Rakyat Malaysia will let Pakatan Rakyat to rule the nation one day; in 5 years time to be precise.
The name is BARISAN RAKYAT!
And I appeal to all here, stop pressuring PAS to abandon their central Islam based idelology. It is inclusive enough for all. Forcing the word “secular” down their throats will alienate substantial support needed to make the new coalition viable. You have been warned!
Pakatan Rakyat or People’s Alliance is same cancept as Barisan Nasional. Very fast PKR-DAP-PAS adopt BN concept.
I heard one DAP Exco in Klang also learn something from old BN Exco where his thanks giving dinner is sponsor by some wealthy businessman and whole night all the people eat and drink for free (150 tables in chinese restaurant). barely 2 weeks only, he start to practice what DAP always condemn when they r in opposition side.
Every body know what this businessman will get from this DAO EXCO in return. DAP should watch out for this Exco and dont repeat the mistakes make by BN Exco.
We hope DAP can clarify on this matter.
YB Lim,
Congratulations to all Malaysians!
Congratulations to you and your team for making this very bold step. It is a move in the right direction. You will fall and you will make mistakes along the way as this is unprecedented and never been attempted before. But with strong principled guidance established throughout the years, I think Malaysians will have faith in you, the team and PAKATAN RAKYAT.
In 5 years time, we want to see PAKATAN RAKYAT take back Malaysia for all Malaysians. May I suggest that all the people in this PAKATAN should sign a solemn pledge to put “Malaysians” first above all racesto ensure that such embarassing situations like the one in Perak does not recur – one minute resign, next minute retract – all in the name of ethnicity. I thi nk we had enough of that.
Again, congratulations and good luck for the long journey ahead to PKR, PAS and DAP – the new PAKATAN RAKYAT.
Oh, yeah! Get a new logo for this new alliance too!
Fantastic! Finally the three main parties of the Opposition in Malaysia have come up with a fresh name to portray their combined strength. ‘People’s Partnership” it is. The dreaded ‘barisan’ has been dropped for good. Let it die with the Barisan Nasional.
Hope the coalition is a real partnership and not a lop-sided one. Hopefully whichever party has the highest number in parliament does not start using the “whip” to brand its hagemony over the others.
Let the ‘whip’ which was frequently wielded by Nazri be thrown away by the wayside. In an equal partnership there is no need to publicly chastise any member for whatever perceived misdemeanour.
For the partnership to work amicably and cohesively, it should not make any slip for the UMNOputras to capitalize on it and try their ‘divide and rule’ tactics.
Elected representatives should bear in mind that they represent all the voters irrespective of race or religion. They should not try to arm-twist the party leadership to gain higher positions in the party or state legislatures. Such naivete may be misconstrued for political immaturity or worse as being a racist.
Anyway it personifies a political frog.
Hope the seniors guide the young MPs and ADUNs to be more responsible and work for the rakyat.
let us just forget whether its secular or islamic state…
muslims cannot accept a secular state…
nonmuslim oso hesitate to accept an islamic state…
why bother trying to impose something that the other half dislike?
what matters most is the one that ALL fighted for all this while…
PAKATAN RAKYAT for rakyat, justice, no cronism, no nepotism…
hear me?
Let Us Live Happily Together In Malaysia
Link: http://www.kingsmary.blogspot.com/
The reality of the political scenario is that neither of the three parties, by itself can take on the BN. So, to formalised their ties in the Pakatan Rakyat is a logical step.
I sincerely hope they will be able to work together to herald the beginnings of a more civil and democractic society which so many of us have hoped will eveolve after BN loses that 2/3 majority.
Don’t know if you guys know that “to pakat” means “to conspire” – the question here I suppose is, are we talking about the conspiracy of the many against the few or of the few against the many?
For those who are still worry about PAS of the hidden agenda if any, please talk to any Kelatanese Chinese or Indians to find out more about PAS past performance. You be surprised how PAS out-performed BN putting BN to utter shame. You be surprised to hear more disgusting incidents in Sekolah Kebangsaan Kepong than Sekolah Kebangsaan Kelantan. How ridiculous some school teachers/principles in Sekolah Kebangsaan Kepong, segregating races and forcing religion to the throat till you can’t believe your ears!
Have you heard of piggies running in some kampungs in Kelantan in the 80′ resided by both Malays and Chinese (though not recommended in today’s culture)? Have you heard Malays drivers helping to catch and send the piggies to slaughter house in Kelantan? Have you heard all races living/eating/dining under one roof in Kelantan? Please talk to some Kelantanese to find out more. You have been brainwashed by BN for too long.
But of course we rakyat will continue to observe and ensure all three parties PKR/DAP/PAS practice moderation, fairness and justice irrespective of race, give constructive criticism when necessary so that the leaders of Pakatan Rakyat will make right judgement and decision for the good of all in the country. DAP has signed the agreement to form the coalition with a condition attached. That should solve one major worry at least.
Lee Wang Yen of the UK:
Since almost everyone writing in this thread has expressed support for Pakatan Rakyat, what would you do now ? Regurgitate all the anti-PAS (and anti-Islam) articles from the internet and wikipaedia ?
I hear you, syncbasher, and totally agree!
In relation to “Pakatan Rakyat”, Malaysiakini reported on April 1st : “Despite repeated questioning, neither Hadi, Lim nor Anwar could confirm if PAS would abandon its ambition to form an Islamic state. Anwar stressed that the Islamic state issue has not been raised by PAS for several years now…“Why harp on the issue and provoke them to respond?” he asked. Lim (Kit Siang) said the emphasis is to focus on “common principles among the three parties”.
Ok so we don’t for the moment talk about PAS in relation to the Islamic state but what about the “uncommon principles” bearing on important public issues?
For example, PAS had urged Muslims worldwide to boycott Dutch products to protest against the 17-minute film ‘Fitna’ by far-right Dutch lawmaker Geert Wilders. Does Pakatan Rakyat have a common position to call for nationwide and world wide boycott of Dutch Products because of the film of one Dutch lawmaker Geert Wilders – or is Pakatan Rakyat going to keep silent??
Another example is the call for the release of Hindraf’s leaders from ISA detention after 8th March 2008. Do PKR and DAP support the call, and if so, does PAS also support such (bearing in mind PAS has slammed Hindraf for extremism in the past)?? Does Pakatan Rakyat have a common position on the release of Hindraf’s leaders or is it going to keep silent???
Jeffrey:
Has PAS called for a boycott of Dutch products, or was it Mahathir’s call in the international press ? Should MAS stop flying to Amsterdam ? Should we evict all the Dutch banks like ING and ABN-Amro ? Should we stop our children taking Dutch Lady milk, never mind that this is actually packaged in Malaysia ?
My point is that is that if it is of national interest, why press the issue on Pakatan Rakyat alone ? Why not press the federal government ?
The Hindraf issue is more pertinent, and to the extent that one of the 5 detained is a Pakatan Rakyat MP, then we should expect the call for their release to be accepted by the leadership of Pakatan Rakyat.
We should not be worried about PAS’ talk of islamic state even in the future. PAS alone could not garner 2/3 majority in Parliament to change the Constitution. In the recently concluded GE 2008, PAS only contested 60 seats. How are they going to change the Constitution where you will need at least 148 seats to do that. Stop becoming the victims of BN’s propaganda machinery.
Based on news reports, PAS had called for a boycott of Dutch products.
“…PAS alone could not garner 2/3 majority in Parliament to change the Constitution..” – Devilmaster. True at this time. Also the statement assumes fundamentally that PAS and UMNO will never tie up to share power.
Jeffrey, your statement about PAS and UMNO tying up to share power assumes fundamentally that UMNO will abandon its right to steal. Tough for thieves to give up their right to steal.
Do you punish the whole nation just because one person just happens to make a personal statement? Are we to boycott all Dutch products even the ones produced in the country just because one Dutch lawmaker Geert Wilder shows his intolerance towards Islam?
It is well and good to call for a total boycott. It is vindictiveness in the extreme.
On a parallel note would the international community be justified to boycott all Malaysian products because they are of the view that Malaysia, especially the BN government is negligent of human rights as it still oppresses its citizens using the ISA for its own political reasons?
Here again there is only one culprit – the Home Affairs Minister. He is the sole authority for the detention of any citizen under the ISA. He is not answerable to the courts as he need not press charges in any court of law of the country. In other words he puts on the mantle of jury, judge and executioner.
So, where is the justice in our democratic system? Before we project a holier than thou attitude, do some soul-searching.
It is just like the KJ fellow who whipped up the emotions of the UMNO youth to stage a demonstration against the Mynmar junta for using brutal force on the monks who had protested against the high cost of essential goods.
But when the Hindraf held a peaceful demonstration for being marginalised, their leaders are incarcerated at the Kamunting detention centre.
Why the double standard? Where is justice?
How is it that everyone has missed the obvious. Since the MCA, the MIC and the Gerakan had lost the support of the Chinese and the Indians, since they represent only that part of the population anyway, they should all abdicate enmasse and join the DAP or the Pakatan Rakyat. They should realised and made to understand that Makkal Sakthi is what it is really all about. Simple as that. So why are they so obstinate and all this talk about rejuvenation, reenginneering, restructuring and you can ‘re’ until the cow come home and it would be all a futile exercise. Can you get a Leopard to change its spot or a Zebra it stripes?
Ong Ka Ting, Sami Vellu and those in the Gerakan camp like Koh Hsu Koon and the Keng Siak guy should be humble enough and admit defeat. Although they did admit defeat after the GE12 I mean that is not what I mean if you get the gist of my meaning. I mean admit that all is lost, kaput!
Who say that they still have a chance in future. No way. In the future the Malaysian Rakyat and of course that means the Malays, the Chinese and the Indian will be even more educated, more modernistic in their thinking , more anti-establishment. Not easily cowed, coerced, threatened, bullied or flim-flammed.
Moreover the Pakatan will not make many mistakes because it is obvious they will be on their toes as everyone is under the microscope so to speak. They can only do the right thing and no wrongs as it would be too costly to fail, not to say embarrassing. Now would’nt it be embarrassing to lose back the five states in the next election? So they have to ‘pump iron’ hard, right?
With the new development and under the new political scenario, its is right for the BR loose coalition to come together under one banner now. It’s the natural progress under such circumstances.
One can envisage it is going to be a friction-laden relationship, full of ideological arguments, fights for positions, posturing for publicity, display of anger and indignation (real and feigned), loud proclamations of misconstrued actions and misinterpreted statements, and last but not least, outrageous ‘antics’ to attract attention.
These are normal behaviours expected of politicians, but, on the other hand, there are serious work to be done. Wise women and men are required to tackle the many issues, they need to apply rational and reasonable thinking to iron out these issues. To come out with acceptable and workable framework and policies, extreme care and sensitivity need to be exercised. Egos and tempers have to be held under rein. Participants have to conduct themselves with civility and good manners. The tendency to resort to ‘one-upmanship’ should be discouraged. Respect for the others’ point of view must guide all discussions of policies. Members must not threaten or intimidate others. All participants should not lose sight of the overall purpose why they are coming together. This vision of building an united country should be clearly seen and totally accepted!
It’s not going to be an easy task, for even now, there are, already, supporters of the parties involved, clamouring for their leaders to fight for the more prominent leadership positions. Many will insist the leaders to stand firm on their ideological positions. The leaders will be walking on a very tight rope. The leaders should stay committed to the sole purpose of building a united Malaysia!
National interests must be the priority, they must not be allowed to be override by narrow ideological demands. PR leaders must be able to make this distinction and not cave in to unreasonable demands, only then, does the nation has hope of steering away itself from race-based politics!
A brave act on March 8, has given us a serendipitous reward, capitalize on it and turn it into the second Merdeka !
Even thougher for thieves to worry about the risks of having their hands chopped off for theft.
I mean “tougher”…
Seriously, there will be that 10 pct of UMNO who will lean towards cooperation with PAS to gain power, just like there is that 10 pct of DAP who will adopt the “never-in-my-life” approach towards cooperation with PAS. As long as these factions are in the minority, we should be OK.
Pakatan Rakyat cannot be formed without PAS. Without Pakatan Rakyat, UMNO will continue to rule, and come next election will again retain 2/3 majority. After that they will have NNEP, and continue to rule for another 50 years. During that time, another two million non-Malays will leave this land. That is the price to pay by insisting now that PAS should openly denounce Islamic state, even if they might be reconsidering the issue.
I support Pakatan Rakyat, in whatever final name it takes.
Congratulation to Kit and Pakatan Rakyat. I think this is the real model for unity especially in multiracial country like Malaysia. UMNO/Malay supremacy is no more relevent. To those who are still prejudice with PAS, please read the interview with Perak MB in Sinchew http://www.mysinchew.com/taxonomy/term/35
If Pakatan Rakyat is viable, governing in transparency, integrity and fair play, Malaysia will be a beacon for all countries in the region. God shine His Light on you Malaysia. Greatness is trust only for one moment in time and its leaders must use this trust for the greater good of all malaysians and not for self. And he, that self will be a light to others. So show thyself Good leaders unto all malaysians and we will include you in our prayers. God bless you, God bless Malaysia.
///Jeffrey, your statement about PAS and UMNO tying up to share power assumes fundamentally that UMNO will abandon its right to steal. Tough for thieves to give up their right to steal///- Godfather.
No. It may assume that PAS may want to share power to learn to steal. :)
PR is a risk for the parties involved but it is good for the country. The pace for change has increased. What the country will be we have more influence to shape it than any other time. Action will and intention will shape our common future.
Some commentators repeatedly equate rejection of PAS’s agenda of Islamic state in a multi-racial country with anti-Islam. The malicious intent to discredit one who criticises PAS as a blanket Islam basher is obvious.
However, it should be rather obvious that
1. Rejection of PAS’s medieval brand of fundamentalistic Islam DOES NOT IMPLY a rejection of Islam.
2. Rejection of PAS’s agenda of Islamic state in a multi-racial country DOES NOT IMPLY a rejection of Islam or even Islamic state itself.
cheer to pakatan rakyat
it sound good.
‘pakatan rakyat’ can be shortform as ‘PAKAR’
yess!! to show all of them are very expert to bring a new harmony malaysia with thier smart thinking and clean personality.
CONGRATULATIONS !!!
Next, forming Federal Government by Pakatan Rakyat,…sooner or later.
I hope is sooner.
BRAVO! THAT IS THE WAY TO GO……………
whether it is PARTI PAKATAN RAKYAT OR PARTI MUAFAKAT RAKYAT,
it is indeed a good development.
Glad to know that we are on the right track towards 2 alternative party/groups of parties which are capable to govern the country. I hope this will weed out cronysm, nepotisme, power-abusing and mediocrities that plagued our country administrative system.
This is a good development towards achieving our vision 2020 .
Welcome to an era of ‘good governance, transparency, fair for all, meritocracy, competency, quality’ Malaysia!’
Time to take this country back……to Pakatan Rakyat ….congratulations….and remember ….no more MYKADS and PR for Indonesians……..The BN used the Indons and Filipinos to kick out Chinese, Indians, Kadazans, etc out of this country……take back that country that all of us won in 1957 from these BN morons……
Formation of Pakatan Rakyat
What news to read on April Fools’! I must admit that I am filled with scepticism but I do hope that DAP, PKR and PAS can really work thru their differences to make the Pakatan Rakyat a success.
Compromise and community! The two Cs that Pakatan Rakyat must bear in mind – if DAP, PKR and PAS truly wish to be for the Rakyat, then they must be ready to let go of their egos. I hope the MB-type problems/disputes were a one-off.
Hopefully, 5 years down the road Pakatan Rakyat would become a strong and stable opposition or even government-candidate; Don’t let it become a Party of Fools.
The Appetiser has been served on Mar 8th
The Main Course has been chosen today Apr 1st
I shall now await for this Main Dish to be serve in due course
the main concern of every rakyat now is the constant plundering by the BN goons. First priority is to kick them out b4 the whole nation crumbles in massive debts and ZERO in the kitty. By that time, whether PAS wanna make Msia Islamic also nothing to fear liao. There wont be any country left.
Just put PR in govt and put all those corrupted idiots to jail. Anything less than this is UNACCEPTABLE. We want heads to roll…the more the merrier!
Uncle Lim, kindly remind your DAP members who
have newly won as an ADUN, to really take actions
to nicely serve the community. Some of them are very
young and they really got many things to learn,
including having the right attitudes & manners.
Hope that these new candidates will not
upset rakyat in their constituency!
Pakatan Rakyat: For PKR you have all the letters there. For PAS you don’t have the “S”. “S” deficiency. For DAP it is the “D” defiency. It is the “SD” party deficiency.
It is for sure PKR is the ruling collision.
See what is correct in another 10 yrs time.
Hope for the best.
Hmmm does Perikatan Rakyat sound better?
Not that the name matters anyway. Congrats!!
This is the logical step forward.
It’s about time Malaysia had a 2-Party System. This is what “Real Democracy” is.
Now the Pakatan Rakyat must show the Rakyat (the real bosses) if they really deserve to form the Government one day.
All the best & God Bless!
I think many Chinese/Indians will not buy this idea of Pakatan Rakyat if DAP will eventually be a ‘yes-man’ to PKR or even PAS… akin to MCA’s position relative to UMNO in BN.
When you are independent, you are strong and can say/do anything openly & independently regardless of a higher level’s policy.
Clearly, PKR is in the lead & joining Pakatan Rakyat will eventually erode some rights of DAP in its ‘solo voicing’. What if PAS go ahead to subtly induce Islamic policies in Kedah like banning gambling, slowly restricting beer, enforcing more close-up clothes for non-Muslim women etc and ‘pakat’ with PKR to agree…… What will DAP do in this “Pakatan Rakyat” then??? What is DAP’s position? Will DAP go ahead & oppose PAS/PKR in ‘close-door meetings’ like MCA? or openly make a opposing statement in the media, which will eventually shame the “Pakatan Rakyat”? Will Anwar Ibrahim allow that???
With this, I think DAP will again lose out in the next GE like the days Barisan Alternatif is formed with PAS in the alliance.
One way to succeed is PAS & overzealous Hadi shuts-up & close their eyes on Toto,4D,Karaoke,Pubs etc… Talk is not enough – they have to show it. Duration = 4 yrs.
When PAS president Abdul Hadi Awang announced a new opposition coalition encompassing his Islamic party, PKR and DAP at a massive gathering of 25,000 supporters in Shah Alam’s Stadium Melawati (last night), he said that that the ‘Barisan Rakyat’ coalition would open its arms to “colleagues” in the ruling Barisan Nasional coalition, in particular elected representatives from Umno, MCA, MIC and Gerakan. He said that they can join the new coalition either as “individuals” or “en bloc” – source Malaysiakini’s report, 1st April.
In short, Hadi is welcoming defections.
But aren’t defections (now canvassed) tantamount to an opportunistic political betrayal of the people’s confidence, and inconsistent with YB’s stand at one time to introduce a private member’s bill with title “Members of Parliament [Prevention of Defection] Act 1978” to ensure political integrity of Members of Parliament) ?
See blog thread at http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/03/24/a-law-to-prevent-defections/
I just came back fr Macau. In a small small most populated country in the world with virtually no room for natural resources, industries(factory) or even international trade & <30 sq km of land, they turn to Casinos…
I don’t know whether gambling places (casino license) are issued under State or Federal in Malaysia.
S’pore is opening 2 casinos.
Penang can be very successful & even more successful than Phuket if we build just 1 casino in Penang!!!
DAP – just change it!!!
It’s not just what you’re called
But what you all can do together
It’s time after the durians falled
Problems are solved and burdens become light as feather
(C) Samuel Goh Kim Eng – 010408
http://MotivationInMotion.blogspot.com
http://msi.Rocky101.com
Tue. 1st April 2008.
Jeff,
I think we all do not like defections…
I also think DAP supporters will not like DAP to join a coalition where DAP may lose its rights to freely voice opinions & protests with the presence of other heavyweights like PKR & PAS around.
I feel the DAP supporters will always prefer DAP to go solo. DAP has failed to gain votes when it joined the Barisan Alternatif in 1998.
If DAP goes ahead, I can bet DAP will lose many votes in the next GE – for 2 simple reasons :
1. PAS is there (they are hiding their hardline Islamic card to play it when the time is ripe – wolf in sheep’s clothing).
2. DAP will become like MCA in BN (A ‘yes-man’ to UMNO)
Trust me…
Mr Lee Wang Yen, im so sorry to say that ur understanding on Islam is deficient and totally misleading. Im not blaming u but im here to help u to understand more rite :-)
1. Rejection of PAS’s medieval brand of fundamentalistic Islam DOES NOT IMPLY a rejection of Islam.
PAS’s so called ‘medieval brand of fundamentalistic Islam’ is not actually another version of Islam but its the true form of Islam meaning which includes all cycle of life, economy, laws, lifestyle etc. As ppl do hear about ‘liberal Islam’, ‘hadhari Islam’ etc these are another incomplete versions of Islam which is not the true Islam. It only focuses on certain part of Islam and does not accept Islam as a whole. So by definition, its not Islam. As such, i would like to state that ur statement above is totally the other way around…
2. Rejection of PAS’s agenda of Islamic state in a multi-racial country DOES NOT IMPLY a rejection of Islam or even Islamic state itself.
Rejection of PAS’s Islamic state DOES imply a rejection of Islam. Islam constitutes a nation which comprises majority of muslim must practises Islamic state principle as any rejection of any part of Islam is deemed as NOT Islam.
However, i would like to say this…
let us just forget whether its a secular or islamic state…
muslims cannot accept a secular state…
nonmuslim oso hesitate to accept an islamic state…
why bother trying to impose something that the other half dislike?
what matters most is the one that ALL fighted for all this while…
PAKATAN RAKYAT for rakyat, justice, no cronism, no nepotism…
hear me?
People, I’m a supporter of the PKR-DAP-PAS pact during the recent election, voting in Batu Gajah seat. And I hope for them do good things during this term.
However, we must be realistic. Pls do not forget the lessons of history.
In 2004, BN won big. The people expect a better government. They didn’t get it.
In Philippine, the people there voted Joseph Estrada with his slogan “Erap para sa Mahirap” (Erap for the poor) in 1998 as their president. He ended up swindling the people’s money.
Many other cases of new government, new hope all over the world. Not many succeed.
I’ve read it somewhere that the most important component of any successful government lies in having a vibrant economy.
Issues such as whether PAS still wanting to establish an Islamic state is not much of a big deal. With such a high percentage of non-Muslims & moderate Muslims in Malaysia, it’s hard to force it through. & PAS is not extreme like JI or Arqam.
It’s hard work ahead, Pakatan Rakyat.
Hidup DAP…!
Suara Rakyat Suara Keramat…!
The following is taken from Channel News Asia:
“This coalition will work and we will disappoint the ruling Barisan Nasional coalition. There are no junior and senior partners among us,” Anwar said. – AFP/ir
Incidentally, Barisan Nasional also had their own meeting in a hotel in PJ at about the same time when the coalition were discussing the next step forward. They discussing how to get rid of their leader while BR is talking about forming “Pakatan Rakyat”.
Continue to move in the right direction and your opponents will self destruct… ;) There are bound to be some turbulence (like the DAP assembly man who resigned and then changed his mind, & fearful individuals who continue to talk about PAS and Islamic State) along the way… but the general direction should be FORWARD TO A NEW MALAYSIA!
SHOW US THE LEAD AND WE ARE READY TO BE ONE PEOPLE… ONE NATION! :D
This has got to go into our history books for the future generations to appreciate. Most of our parents went through many historical significance of their lifes (WWI, WWII, Emergency, Merdeka, May13, Flood, etc) – but this is truly momentous for Malaysia in the 21st century & for current politically minded generation. Even my father who is now in his 70s has never felt so moved/proud with the results of the recent GE & witnessing the change in our political climate. This change can never be too late. Better late than never!
The nucleus of the future Malaysia that should have been was borned under PR. I was waiting for this day, a cohesive structure among the former-opposition parties. Otherwise, BN will attack the weakest part of the chain. Another “check” move for BN to worry about. BN should start planning to be the opposition party after the next GE…or they can continue to squabble whose fault it is for the huge loss & so on until kingdom come.
The newly formed PR should be easily opened to all Malaysian citizens to join…PR will be truly a Malaysian people’s party. Those with Red IC should be encouraged to join as well?? Coming into the next GE, PR should encourage every eligible voters to register now. Don’t depend on post office…always run out of forms or system down. In these day & age, still can’t register on-line properly. Our EC is still living in the past or sleeping/hybernating until next GE.
PR service centers must assist all eligible voters to register. Imagine if every household that voted PR in this GE has ONE additional eligible voter…how many more new voters for PR that can be for next GE. Provided PR don’t be another BN-lah please…
For those who seem to have this extraordinary perception about PAS…just make a trip to Kelantan one day. If you have been, maybe not long enough. Go again. Why do we discriminate a religious party that actually uphold all that is good within Islam. Any different if it was a Hindu, Buddhist or Christian party? It’s like the songkok story that RPK wrote about.
Growing up under the BN propaganda also gave me a certain perception about Kelantan & PAS. My perception has since changed after meeting people from Kelantan & was surprised that they were Chinese living in Kelantan…after all. If they were, & if what BN propaganded was true, why then is the Chinese/Indian people living in Kelantan? able to go on with the lives – without prejudice / discrimination / freedom of religion / etc…otherwise, they could have moved to other states easily. I wouldn’t mind retiring to Kelantan – which by that time, PAS would have enough $$$ from the natural gas & oil royalties, & after paying off the last of the RM 11million owing to FedGov (& the debt was due to BN handling the state before that)…to have proper water system, etc etc that is long overdue to the people of Kelantan. Next – terengganu!
Mr Lee Wang Yen should repeat all his previous postings on “dhimmis” as defined in the wikipaedia. He reckons that we are all dhimmis under the brand of Islam as promoted by PAS.
Like I said in a previous post, this person is part of the 10 pct “extremist” in any party, so we should forgive his opposition to Pakatan Rakyat since the other 90 pct are all in favour.
congratulations!!! That is the way to go and I hope the 3 parties can work well, there will be bumps but that is part and parcel of a relationship.
Pakatan Rakyat is just a name, what is important is that those who are elected must remember to serve to defend and protect us.
Of the people, By the people For the people.
come next election, let’s Tsunami, Great Johor Flood, Typhoon and Earthquake the remainder BN.
Congratulation on setting up the Pakatan Rakyat. This is the right move I fully supported it although a lot of non-muslim had still doubtful on Pas intention on setting up Hudud Law anyywhere let give them a chance. I always here from my Chinese friend from Kelantan that Pas is much more better than UMNO racist. Btw I’m a bit sad to here the news on police investigation of Lim Guan Eng on the NEP issue. I pray to god for his safety why don’t the BN losser gave Pakatan Rakyat a chance.
PAKATAN RAKYAT
in short means- PKR
what are your comments DAP and PAS
Watch this…
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SFQAJt_RwSE
Great start….PKR…..RPK…..PR….
Pakatan Rakyat….
1.Good start…..The TRIO [not triad]…need to come together….and they did.
2. They need to agree…..and they did.
3. They have formed a group….which is good, a coalition…a partnership…..Pakatan Rakyat.
As for all the questions, it can be worked out….
For example, have you not considered that three diverse personalities…the Malays, Chinese and Indians have cohabited and intermarried since before and after Merdeka….100 years of marital relationships…..
Malay men marrying Chinese women
Malay women marrying Chinese men
Malay men marrying Indian women
Malay women marrying Indian men
Chinese man marrying Indian women
Chinese women marrying Indian men….
mix it up with Ibans, Punjabis, Kelabits…I have seen all combinations…
All obstacles, questions can be solved, resolved etc….it is absurd that anyone should be suspicious, worried, afraid….after 50 years being married to one another.
Dear Uncle Lim,
I wish Pakatan Rakyat the best and I know that it will be ruling the country very soon as the BN is disintegrating with its unsustainable racist policies. I would like to add that whilst DAP, PKR, and PAS alliance is the way to go the true test in the end is RESULTS. If you compare Singapore cabinet and Malaysia’s you will see the great discrepancies. Almost everyone of their ministers are either top Lawyers, top Surgeons, top Engineers, President scholars, Successful corporate figures – most certainly the cream of the cream in the country. If you count the number of Indians they have in the cabinet you will realise that RACE count for ZILCH there. I cannot believe that we as a nation with more than 26 MILLIONS strong do not have such capable people in our midst. Pakatan Rakyat just need to look and I am sure we can come up with even more qualified people with more impressive credentials. The problem is they are distributed all over the world now as the NEP has driven a lot of the best brains out of the country. Use this to PR advantage and invite all this high performance individual to return and selflessly serve the country. I suggest the politician play the politics for them but the MOST CAPABLE person and not the best politician be put in important leading administrative positions in the Ministry. I would rather having professional Ministers who can stand its own against anyone in the world rather than a great politician who cannot add or speak properly. If you get the best people to lead, everything will fall into place and things have a tendency turning favourable. It is time for Malaysia to shine again. If we use this same policy which Singapore is using, we will catch up and surpass them in 5-10 years. Remember we have more than 26 millions to draw our talents from while they only have less than 4 million.
Regards.
This guy seems to know all, 10% of this and 90% of that. Wonder where did he get his statistics?
I must take my hat off to Anwar Ibrahim. Without him any collaboration between PAS and DAP was on the lam. If he can be an intermediary spearheading the tripartite parties to a successful coalition of “Pakatan Rakyat” in further enhancing the cause for integrity, accountability, transparency for an effective alliance for the betterment of Malaysians of diversity of races, equally, I can’t see why right-minded Malaysians could not see of him as a pre-eminent leader…
No offence here to anyone – but put it this way, we have to choose the lesser evil here. PR or BN. We all have a choice. Have we all forgotten about PSM? or has PSM merged into DAP-PKR? Every seat counts (precious) at the moment.
….”your statement about PAS and UMNO tying up to share power assumes fundamentally that UMNO will abandon its right to steal. Tough for thieves to give up their right to steal.”
How can one make such an assumption that UMNO will forever steal and by implication PAS will never steal, sigh….
Try to nurture PAS to the strength of UMNO (pre March 8) and we shall see what will happen. The safest way to go is to keep both UMNO and PAS at even keel.
To avoid in fighting among the component parties for leadership and other party positions for the new coalition party during the formation stage, make it a condition that no one can vote their own party members for the posts. This is to ensure that everyone will be forced to look at things not based on their narrow party line and become a true Malaysian Malaysia. Just my thought.
Congrats..it’s a new beginning for Pakatan Rakyat..
limkamput Says:
…The safest way to go is to keep both UMNO and PAS at even keel…
It is all about “Trust”: If you trust no one, no one will trust you. ;)
passerby Says:
To avoid in fighting among the component parties for leadership and other party positions for the new coalition party during the formation stage, make it a condition that no one can vote their own party members for the posts.
This will not guarantee no disagreement within the coalition. ;)
The key is SINCERITY in dealing with one another. Always approach problems with an open mind. More WISDOM less EMOTIONS.
If the joint secretariat can show the way by behaving as one: Pakatan Rakyat and NOT as individuals representing different interest groups, there is no reason why the members of their respective parties will not follow. There is also no reason why the people will be forced to take sides. This is leadership by example. ;)
ARE WE READY TO TAKE OVER AS THE NEXT GOVERNMENT?
Some might say…. Too idealistic!
Maybe…. But do you know of any other way?
Some might say… Too simple
Maybe… But the simplest way is the most profound. ;)
LIFE CAN BE SIMPLE. ONLY WE MAKE IT COMPLICATED FOR OURSELVES. ;)
That poor UMNO leader from Sekichan was been barred for making speech, Tun Dr. Mahathir said ppl shud b brave to stand up against the leader, but on the other hand, those who stand up against him was kicked out from asking a question. Tun Dr. Mahathir is a hypocrites.
hi kit siang,
this was on anwar’s blog
Muafakat tersebut berlandaskan agenda perubahan – negara hukum, keadilan – serta berteraskan prinsip Perlembagaan. Ini bermakna hak dan kebebasan rakyat terjamin dan kedudukan Islam sebagai agama Persekutuan, Bahasa Kebangsaan dan hak keistimewaan Melayu dan Bumiputera tetap dipertahankan.
http://anwaribrahimblog.com/2008/04/02/muafakat-berasaskan-kematangan-hak-rakyat-terjamin/
i think it really contradicts your joint statement above!!!!!!!!!!!
omg what’s going on….
uncle lim,
we give u the power. but u have missused it.. who ask u to join with PAS.
Well done to all the leaders of PKR-DAP-PAS for the formation of Pakatan Rakyat.
Of course to some people especially those from the BN/UMNO they will belittled the efforts that Pakatan Rakyat had made.
I am sure there are many within the Pakatan Rakyat that were not only surprised by the formation of Pakatan Rakyat but may actually oppose the formation and commented that PKR-DAP-PAS had abandoned their principles and policies.
In less than one month after the recent general election, the three parties are moving towards the formation of the Pakatan Rakyat, and I am sure there are many out there looking forward to see the Pakatan Rakyat will grow stronger day by day. Differences are sure to exist, but I believe the benefits out weight the negative aspects. This could yet be translated into another tsunami that are feared by BN/UMNO on particular.
“….just because one Dutch lawmaker Geert Wilder shows his intolerance towards Islam?” mauriyaII
I agree. But understand where that emotion is coming from – and it is not just mere intolerance.
“The maverick politician’s remarks about Islam have become increasingly radical. In February last year he said that if Muslims wanted to stay in the Netherlands, they should tear out half of the Koran and throw it away. In parliament he then called for the Koran and Hitler’s Mein Kampf to be banned, a proposal that was rejected.” Jason Burke, The Observer 1/20/08
Salam Sejahtera,
Saya sebenarnya sudah lama mengikuti blog ni dan selalu membaca komem. Dulu ramai org memandang serong dengan PAS kerana PAS memperjuangkan Islam. Tetapi, so far dah berkurangan, mungkin disebabkan mereka memandang kebolehan Tok Guru Nik Aziz memerintah Kelantan yang mana kerajaan PAS boleh bertahan hingga hari ini. So far, tak de pun Cina Kelantan dipinggirkan, malah ekonomi masyarakat Cini di Kelantan bertambah maju, kalau tak caya try pergi KB Mall, makin ramai masyarakat Cina berniaga. Siapa cakap Islam ni meminggirkan org Cina, India.
Dalam kes ni, saya sedar kenapa org memandang serong ttg Islam, puncanya adalah dari org Islam sendiri yang tak mengamalkannya dan memutar belitkan Islam sendiri. Itulah timbul Islam itu radikal, ganas dan macam-macam lagi persepsi yang buruk terhadap Islam. Saya seorang melayu Kelantan, saya tak rasa bangga pun saya dilahirkan seorang melayu. Apa ketuanan Melayu, semua itu bohong. Banyak nak tulis kalau nak explain kat sini.
Di sini saya ingin cadangkan, apa kata kita buat satu perjumpaan kepada pembaca blog LKS, bolehlah kita bertukar-tukar pandangan. Bolehlah kita mereaslisasikan Malaysian-malaysian (manusia-manusia).
Headmaster:
I had an “A” in statistics in university. Do you ? Maybe you are in the same camp as Badawi when it comes to statistics.
[deleted]
[deleted]
///We have developed and strengthened the structure of Pakatan Rakyat by creating under the Leadership Council, consisting of the leaders of the three parties, a Joint Secretariat consisting of three leaders from each of the three parties/// – YB Lim Kit Siang. The joint-secretariat will work out exact details of the Pakatan Rakyat, how it will work, its vision, its leadership structure.
When asked if the three parties are equal partners within the coalition, Anwar Ibrahim was reported to have said that any problems within the three parties would be ironed out collectively. He dismissed any suggestion that he was the leader of the group, saying he was merely their spokesperson for today’s press conference.
YB, if Anwar said no one person or party would have a greater standing and that it was the rakyat who would be the dominant party, then before the Pakatan Rakyat or its Joint Secretariat adopts any joint policy decision, wouldn’t it be correct to say that it must be prior agreed UNANIMOUSLY by all three parties – PKR, DAP & PAS – and not by simple majority with PKR siding with PAS on any decision or position of which the DAP does not agree????
Are Anwar & Hadi prepared to agree to this???
You have said, that the formation of the Pakatan Rakyat based on the “common principles” amongst the three opposition parties was a “logical step forward” following the opposition’s stunning gains on March the 8th.
We understand that the “logical step forward” is to form a formal opposition coalition not only to take the cause of Malaysian Democracy forward – which Hadi has stated as the common goals of working towards the abolishment of all unjust and discriminatory laws, especially the ISA, UUCA & OSA, implementation of electoral reforms, making ACA independent and restoring public confidence in the judiciary – but also the other part (that is not so expressly stated), to be poised and ready to replace at any time the Barisan Nasional as the alternative government, the first prerequisite of which is not necessarily to wait until the next 13th General Election, but to wait to see if there are sufficient crossovers (at least 35) from BN MPs especially from East Malaysia’s side to command the majority in Dewan Rakyat for a no confidence motion on the present government and take over from it.
This is precisely why PAS president Abdul Hadi Awang told PAS’s 25,000 supporters in Shah Alam’s Stadium Melawati that the Opposition coalition would open its arms to “colleagues” in the ruling Barisan Nasional coalition, in particular elected representatives from Umno, MCA, MIC and Gerakan crossing over either as “individuals” or “en bloc”.
Does this suggest that you and DAP have in principle either effected a turnabout that defections and cross-overs are either (1) no more (to use your past words) “opportunistic political betrayal of the people’s confidence” or (2) that they still are, but it is to be acquiesced with, if not encouraged, for the greater benefit or higher good of the Opposition taking over the government sooner???
[Hadi’s remarks on welcoming defectors were made not of PAS’s but the Pakatan Rakyat’s position, and according to Anwar, policy decisions of Pakatan Rakyat were to be forged collectively by parties of equal standing, which means that I am entitled to assume it means unanimously, with yourself and DAP’s endorsing as well Hadi’s statement welcoming defectors to join Pakatan Rakyat].
YB,
For the moment, it’s anything but Barisan Nasional! The people have awakened from their 50-year slumber to realise that they have been bushwhacked, cheated and steamrolled by BN. But the day of reckoning must also come for Pakatan Rakyat….not just the first 100 days, then the first 6 months, then the annual report.
Rhetoric can only last for a season but PR must deliver or face the people’s wrath too.
I know that PR will be resolute and continue to be sensitive to the pulse of the nation’s needs.
All the best. I think RPK has sounded out a warning of sorts to PR to deliver or be whacked. And I’d never treat RPK’s words likely as the double Muhammad and his ilk have experienced the sharpness of RPK’s razor-sharp keyboard!
politics and politics only.
PLEASE REFRAIN FROM RELIGION AND RACE. otherwise,
pas is for malays ala umno
pkr is mock up multiracial ala gerakan, ppp
dap is for chinese and indians ala mca ,mic
i think HINDRAF has more credibility than all the poltical parties put together. at least they are consistent in stating that the indians were marginalised but remain apolitical.!!
YB LIM ,
congratulations on whatever desicion that you have made in the interest of DAP. i also find you as a PERSON very consistent in your fight against corruption and croynism and power abuse. i hope you will continue this cause of yours. HISTORY will remember you as a great leader. BUT. hopefully your friends in this pakatan are just as consistent as you.
thankyou.
[deleted]
Lets be honest, this is really about Anwar being able to negotiate with Sabah and Sarawak with any real authority. Only if Sabah and Sarawak comes in will Anwar be able to keep this Pakatan going. Otherwise, its no more than a mild threat to BN.
ENDANGERED HORNBILL.
i agreed with you. ym rja petra is also a consistent fighter for the underdogs. he fought for anwar ibrahim with his free anwar campaign, but does anwar remembers raja petra now ?
[deleted]
That is right, did anybody remember YM Raja Petra? I have earlier said to make him the governor of Penang. I think he contributed greatly to PR and now having to face RM4 million bill.
kingkenny, coming in 1st and 2nd does matter and it matter most. No one remember the 2nds. Besides why must one be a 2nd if he is best for the 1st. Go ask DSAI to be 2nd and he’ll kick your butt out. Afterall he is in this for the no 1 spot isnt he? So if we truly want to be a malaysian then all barriers must and should come down. I remember my high school teachers tens of years ago always reminded us that we are future prime ministers of the country. Little did we know that the top post is solely reserved for one coloured race. So where will our future generation stand? What if your child one day come up to you and say that his/her ambition is to become the prime minister? And who are we to kill their desires and ambitions to suit ours? Our time may have passed us by but what about theirs? NOW is their time! Question: Mr Kit, will you and would you and could you be the next prime minister?
On YM Raja Pet, everyone loves RP dont they? But just like us all, we put our masks on daily. No one will ever know his utmost intentions but we are beginning to see glimpses of it. If we want to distinguish a certain tree from a forest all we have to do is to see it from afar. Already we have seen his cousins, uncles, nephews reassesing/reasserting their powers in their light of this turmoil (which is good and bad). Everyone takes sides and lean heavy to which suits them. No exception for RP. Afterall he’s only human! So will the real RP stand up PLEASE!
[deleted]
Lets put an end to personal feuds in this blog – Admin]
I am confused now. I voted for the opposition because they said to be fair to all, regardless of race and religion. But in PKR website, it says hak dan kepenting Melayu tetap dijaga.
Fair to all in what sense, what areas?
Hak dan kepentingan Melayu in what sense, what area?
Can somebody please explain the contradictory remarks above. I am a average salaryman, and I have 3 growing up children. Like any other parent, I also wish my kids to have a level playing ground, and growing up having malays and non-malays friends.
2 immediate issues comes to mind:
1. Public Universities (or overseas), admission policies and scholarships award: full meritocracy or not?
2. Buying of house/property: 7% discounts for bumiputra(irrespective of rich or poor)
I believe these subjects were not touched at all. All that was said for just the superficial “fair to all, regardless of race and religion” to appease the non-bumis, and “hak dan kepentingan Melayu tetap dijaga” to appease the bumis. I don’t think all 3 DAP, PAS, PKR leaders reached a consensus on these issues yet. I would suggest issues that have not been agreed upon, should be played-down, to avoid confusion.
Are we moving forward towards a truly bangsa malaysia? Aren’t we all brothers and sisters created equal in the eyes of God?
Definitely a step forward for a Just and Transparency Malaysia
I read with interest three significant events recently:
1. The formation of PR and of all state government, excos under PR with some minor issues and problematic faced by UMNO in Perlis & Terengganu
2. The mass defection of UMNO members into PAS and PKR. But can anyone give any statistic here. Man! I do hate that subject. The infighting in UMNO
3. One UMNO members was thrown out of a so call forum bcoz of ….wrong questions or statements about DSAI…. I think the forum should be called, “What I want to hear only for my lost in PRU12”. If UMNO still do not change and could not accept other people (even their members) point of view, what of we the outsiders?
These are positives step for PR and for a better Malaysia out of the authoritarian of BN-UMNO. Bear in mind, we do not forget history and need to learn from it. But at the same time, we need to learn to forgive. We are human after all, we make mistake. DSAI said, “We received with open arms the new members without any prejudice”.
A positive and proactive forward will be then:
1. Accept new changes (even made by PAS Islamic stand), accept it at good will and open heart.
2. Accept new members. Continue to strengthen the party machinery
3. Meet our counter part in East M, have dialogues, discussions not only at high level but also at grassroots. PR needs to establish stronger base there. Invite East M based party there to join PR
4. Continue to fulfill the pre-election promises
God willing, PR can be an alternative even before PRU13
I always believed that there is a lot all of us must and should do before needing to turn to religion. This is proof positive to me.
However, I realized living here that to many everything they do begin by thinking of god first whatever their religion is.
So if you ask me, if this Pakatan is going to go forward, sooner or later an inter-faith dialogue need to be convened and DAP need to be ready rather than stand on a simple line of secular state definition.
The constitution of this country says the official religion of this country is Islam although the Reid commision also said Malaysia is meant to be a secular state.
Clearly most of Malaysian feel more comfortable with some state role in religion which is not strict secularism. We also don’t have the liberal traditions for complete separation of religion and state power but recognized the downside of it. So the definition of what is a secular state but the official religion is Islam need to be debated and defined pointing a way forward not only for this nation but the rest of the world.
http://anwaribrahimblog.com/2008/04/02/muafakat-berasaskan-kematangan-hak-rakyat-terjamin/
URGENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SERIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anwar said “……kebebasan rakyat terjamin dan kedudukan Islam sebagai agama Persekutuan, Bahasa Kebangsaan dan hak keistimewaan Melayu dan Bumiputera tetap dipertahankan…….”
What Anwar talking now?
YB Lim, this need to be clarified and announce to us. We did not vote for this?
[deleted – this blog welcomes all views which do not run afoul of the Sedition Act but let us avoid being personal. – Admn]
Generally most Malaysians are very racist and sexist. Our societies, on the whole are make up of very racist and sexist peoples.
When deciding or selecting a Leaders, MP, Exco, Speaker and etc, race and sex after capabilities and knowledge.
Malaysians always said or mentioned that the team of Exco must have representative of certain race or sex, worse still some even demanded to have certain percentage of certain race or sex.
Malaysians did not select the best people to do the job, we choose the most suitable race and sex even though he or she is below average. He or she will be elected as long as the he or she is the desired race or sex to be.
The following are few examples of racist and sexist Malaysians.
“Women, Family and Community Development Minister Datuk Dr Ng Yen Yen said Perak Menteri Besar Mohammad Nizar Jamaluddin had responded “very positively” to her request to appoint a woman state executive councillor. “
“The Wanita MCA chief said she had personally expressed her concern to Nizar to appoint at least one woman state executive councillor.”
“There has never been an Indian speaker in any of the 13 state assemblies since 1957,” DAP national vice-chairman and Ipoh Barat MP M. Kulasegaran said yesterday.
In Malaysian, race and sex is still a very important factor in deciding, electing or selecting a leader.
Wonder by when we can put aside such racist and sexist thinking and be like the Americans, where race and sex had no place in deciding, electing or selecting a leader.
Kit:
Readers can follow the thread above, and find out exactly who is carrying the personal feud. I never go out to disparage someone first, not even if that person behaved irresponsibly towards me with some form of personal vendetta.
It started with me making an innocent comment that those who are against the formation of the Pakatan is in the minority of 10 pct, but that luckily for us, the other 90 pct is all in favour of the formation. What do I get for this comment ?
“This guy seems to know all, 10 pct of this and 90 pct of that. Where did he get his statistics?”
Did I make any provocation ? Why is this individual out to run me off this blog ?
[Godfather, no offence intended when the comment was appended to your earlier posting calling for an end to personal feuding. It was clearly not a reflection that you had provoked it. You and others have contributed to the quality of this blog. Believe all will agree that personal feuding had gone too far in some threads. Do not think any purpose will be served in trying to ascertain the first causes. Let us put an end to such feuding – and this is not directed at Godfather but a general comment. – Admin]
[deleted – Apologies. Shall we let the matter rest and move on? – Admin]
Uncle Lim, sounds good but lets see it work. Whatever you call it, it does not matter. It must be seen to be a workable pact. Still of concern to most people would be how PR handles PAS within its set-up. Will an Islamic state come to fruition eventually or will it be restricted to the states that it rules????
I would strongly suggest that PR continue to tap into the IT world by having a website to receive feedbacks and comments from the public. This would be one way to gauge sentiments and maybe get some useful ideas and at the same time, disseminate information.
Also, PK elected representatives must behave more maturely and not shoot off the gun. The Siva resignation in Perak is a joke! Looks like a David Copperfield act. Now you see him, now you don’t, then you see him.
Needing more Indians in exec roles to serve the community does not make a lot of sense. Sounds like schoolboys fighting over candies. Also sounds like self interest over people’s interest. In that case, PK would be no different from BN. I thought PK is for all races no matter who the rep is.
I trust that all Pakatan reps in the state assemblies and in Parliament have been made to sign resignation forms once they cease to be members of any Pakatan party. The will of the rakyat must be paramount to the whims and fancies of each individual.
[deleted – Shall we move on?- Admin]
if DSAI and PAS play the non malays out, uncle kit u better go to HELL coz u misled us all by co operating with them.
In order to achieve Wawasan 2020, Datuk Seri Anwar Ibrahim must become prime minister. We need cheaper cost of living, and better quality life. Pakatan Rakyat, there should be chinese or indian deputy prime minister in the future.
Good thing to have formed Pakatan Rakyat but could’nt assure it’ll last long.
With PAS all along, not sure whether it is willing to discard some of its “extreme” ideology once the PR gain power?
If not, then it’ll be hell for all of us!
Dear all,
We are all happy to see the alliance.
But can we think deeper? Is DAP ready for this?
DAP cannot ever handle some simple thing, for example:
1. Buntong rep issue.
2. The assignment of Selargor exco member.
We support DAP but not blindly.
LKS, please does something.
Please prove to us DAP X= MCA, DAP X=Gerakan, DAP X= UMNO even after the big victory on 8th March.
Alaneth, I share your concerns. However we’re a minority. Most are exhilarated by concretization of any form of collaboration to take the logic of the last election forward to boot the BN. One recalls that when it comes to voting, if one puts a monkey against the BN candidate, the monkey would get the vote! That is the prevailing sentiment.
Whatever the differences of opinion here, most here are not only DAP’s supporters but also are wishing the country get better.
What is disconcerting here is the issue of defections which Anwar with Hadi’s complicity is pushing for. Indeed as what Bigjoe said, the real logic for formalization of Pakatan Rakyat (PR) is to provide the legitimate and legal platform for crossovers by individuals or en bloc by BN’s MPs. This is the main object of PR – to bring the earlier demise of BN not by elections but by defections and cross overs!
We have no problem with BN being replaced but the method with which it is to be done ought to be by election via ballot box.
For if it were done back door by cross overs and defections, it is not a situation that lends to political stability. Even leaving aside ethical issues whether defectors are political opportunists adulterating and contaminating the political gene pool of oppositionists there are two other issues that don’t contribute to stability in relation to the country when such methods are resorted to : (1) the BN’s chaps will not be happy if they were thrown out midway not by expression of people’s will via losing in election but by crossovers due to the other side’s enticements in whatever form, and this means they will cause trouble. If I were them I would because I am facing all by existing contracts with cronies being aborted and also facing contracts being scrutinized and a witch hunt based on corruption charges the moment I am thrown out. There is no time for amends, no time for covering my tracks, no time for graceful exit with preparations of what to do next in place; (2) crossover game can be played by two once precedence is openly justified. Even if PR wins majority by crossovers, it does not mean crossovers by other players cannot reverse towards BN, and this game when repeatedly played will benefit no one, not the nation but those who are political opportunist.
What is disconcerting is that the two principal leaders/spokesmen (Anwar & Hadi) have openly pushed and endorsed this “culture” of cross overs to which Pakatan Rakyat is supposed to “welcome” without us knowing what is YB LKS’s and DAP’s stand is on this point.
It has all appearances of LKS/DAP being overtaken by events and swept along by the momentum of what the other parties PKR & PAS are desirous of – an immediate takeover of power with the help of such dubious means, never mind the consequences to stability and other reasons.
And yet Anwar said no one person or party with Pakatan Rakyat would have a greater standing and that it was the rakyat who would be the dominant party.
If that were so, what part of Rakyat have agreed to cross overs and defections as a means to evict BN immediately and take power??? I don’t even remember DAP or LKS has explicitly endorsed what both Anwar and Hadi advocated. Amnd yet they said they represented that they spoke for PR. If that were the case do they treat DAP as equal partner or we’re seeing the beginning of the way UMNo treats MCA/Gerakan ?
DAP going to be like MCA
compromising too much
ie
compromised on Ngeh brothers
compromised on Perak MB
compromised on Selangor’s Exco
compromised on Buntong ADUN
Malaysians who love to see the rebirth of democracy in Malaysia are right to celebrate the formation of PR but the equally important equation for this formula to work must not be forgotten.
Malaysians who want to see the emergence of the 2-party parliamentary system, which was given its birth on March 8, must speak out against the unrelenting stream of attacks aimed at UMNO.
The reason is, two parties of equal strength and standing are needed for this system to work. After 50 years of dreaming, wishing, praying, fighting and , finally, voting for it, it must not be allowed to die a premature death. UMNO must be left alone to rebuild itself so that it can lead a strong BN. This is unlikely to happen if the attacks come, each other day, with no time left for UMNO to take a re-look at their failed policies. This is crucial at this juncture.
Mahathir, together with politicians who are aligned to him and politicians who are joining in the chorus for their own political agendas, must place the health of the nation first. Personal agendas, positions and personal interests can wait till the UMNO election in December.
Concerned Malaysians, speak out so that democratic change can take hold. This is important!
Actually PR is a great team, if you observe it wisely, you will notice they are able to solve crisis very fast, and its leader are willing to accept change.
1) MB of Perlis
2) Selangor Exco list
3) Perak Exco list
So pls stop criticizing it, we must move on to new frontier.
Pakatan Rakyat is a Pakatan April Fool formed on 1 April 2008.
It won’t last long….
This is really the emergence of a new political era and a new political landscape in the country with the ushering in of Pakatan Rakyat or People’s Alliance.
More work needs to be done by the PR/PA to consolidate and sustain. Do not allow it to die prematurely after such a long journey. Kudos!
///Mahathir, together with politicians who are aligned to him and politicians who are joining in the chorus for their own political agendas, must place the health of the nation first. ///
TDM played a part in getting UMNO and BN to be at the point where Malaysian voters responded with the March election results. Having achieved that, as part of his strategy to build an empire for his son, the followup actions will not wait. We hope he would fail. AAB might not be as intelligent but he is less dangerous to the nation.
A question was asked if TDM is legally allowed to remove only one person from UMNO, would he choose PM AAB or Khairy, the son-in-law.
Mr.Lim. I hope DAP can play the ‘kingmaker’s role’ and not just as a member of PR. Anwar has issued statements like “mempertahankan hak orang melayu”. What “hak” may I ask?
If PKR has this in mind, it will later turn into another UMNO. If he says protecting the rights of all Malaysians, then it is a different story. I have read and he has uttered the former statement in various sites and reports.
I am still having the mentality of Chinese first, Malaysian second bcos of after so many years of being bullied and marginalised. I hope to change one day and I also hope that every Malaysian would think as a Msian.
Uncle Lim,
Start thinking and acting as a government-in-waiting; there’s no time to lose!
Once Anwar resumes his rightful place in politics, the BN will be history.
Be prepared to take over seamlessly!
Do you know in Penang multi national company (US Based, or European Based) most of the management would preferred chinese candidates, and human resource & operation normally is malay, whereas majority of the factory operator are malay ladies & man. Normally these factory operators earn RM 800-1200 depend on overtime & benefit. The chinese still owned the economy, whereas the Malay non UMNO not from UMNO are suffering. Offcourse, DSAI have the right to help defend their rights. If one day he become Prime Minister, he must also defend the right for all, and everyone. Is there a list of who will be Prime Minister, Deputy Prime Minister, Minster of Defend, Minister of Education, Minister of Health.
Here’s my pick for top 5 post.
1) Prime Minister (PKR)
2) Deputy Prime Minister (DAP)
3) Minister of Defend (PKR)
4) Minister of Health (PAS)
5) Minister of Education (DAP)
lakilompat,
I think you have missed one of the most important portfolio.
Ministry of Finance!
saubing, as usual Prime Minister as DSAI is ex-Finance Minister.
May i know what is ur choice!
Before GE 12, I always thought PR will fight for every Malaysian which is a very healthy sign from 50 years of race based politics in Malaysia. However after GE12, after seeing the fiasco in Selangor Exco and Perak Exco, it is very disappointing that the coalition party wants to fight for the limited Exco places. I belive many will agree with me that we don’t care whether all EXCO members are malays/chinese/indians/male/female AS LONG AS the best has been selected for the job! But what transpired after GE 12 is totally different. It looks like the same old Umno/MCA/MIC/Gerakan fight for allocations and more blantant than the BN government. If our mindset is still on malay quota/female quota then i dont think the best has been selected for the job. although i am a chinese, I really don’t mind the exco is from which party and from what race as long as they can perform. Isn’t that was what we were promised by PR during GE 12? after Buntong Sa made such a statement, I think the rakyat’s wish may take a long time to materialise with such mentalities!
lakilompat,
I feel PR should choose the best person to perform the job before looking at their race or party. (the party quota and race quota is really sickening!) if they can form the federal government
Please buck up DAP! Stop getting frontpage news for the wrong reasons! Fong Po Kuan quits then retract her statement before GE12, LKS said boycott Perak swearing then retract it in the same day, Ngeh told media that he will be Deputy Mb together with an Indian SA from PKR and later it was confirmed that no such provisions for Deputy MB and was instead appointed as Senior Exco, Buntong SA quits at the most crucial moment then retract! Please think before making any statements because it will not only hurt DAP, it also hurts the rakyat for electing such flip flop SA/MP. Please dont simply make u-turn cause we believe in your credibilities!
Takde ke orang kaya dari gologan Melayu, Cina, India, dll? Takde ke orang miskin dari golongan Melayu, Cina, India, dll? Saudara saudari sekalian, janganlan terlalu mementingkan diri sendiri sehingga mahu berjuang untuk bangsa sendiri, kononnya. Itu budaya BN yang lapok.
Apa kata kalau kita tolong saja sesiapa juga yang miskin tanpa kira kaum, bangsa, gender, agama, parti, ideologi, dsb.
Luaran nampak berbeza, asasnya darah kita semerah. Makan nasi, keluar taik. Minum air keluar kencing. Kentut siapa yang wangi? Apa bezanya brothers?
Saubing,
Don’t just say the Selangor and Perak EXCO fiascoes are disgusting. Malaysians too are still being disgusting. As someone rightly pointed out it is so obvious and so evident that race and religion still play central to the minds of most, including many who post in this blog.
At first I responded with hope and enthusiasm for this new Pakatan Rakyat but after reading many comments posted above I must admit my disappointment and seriously question wither such a coalition will ever work.
Stop politicising the Islamic State. PAS is not the Taliban. Otherwise Kelantan would be notorious. It is not. And as posted in another topic, Hudud laws for example are aimed at criminals, not the innocent.
Comments from many here do not help, neither does Karpal Singh saying “We will continue to resist PAS” in todays New Straits Times do as well.
Simple question: You want or you dont want? You want, fine. But have to accept PAS. Dont want, also fine, but can never take the Federal Government.
Just make the choice. And stick with it. If you dont want, just stop the Pakatan Rakyat talks. Make the core supporters happy. Dont waste other peoples time.
Kentut UMNOputra betul2 harum – tanye lah KJ.
Given that Anwar claims that PR’s policies will be based on consensus and that Islamic state is no longer an issue, PR might want to consider making a formal declaration to the effect that PR will not pursue the agendas of Islamic state and Islamisation. This is a perfectly reasonable request that will reassure those who take the secular character of our nation and our Merdeka social contract seriously. PR should have no difficulty making such a formal declaration given that Anwar has claimed that PAS’s Islamic state is no longer an issue.
whats the difference between PR and BN? If we were to examine it on a microscopic level PR is exactly the pirated version of BN. If we are to do away with all these nepotism, cronyism etc… we must disband and unite as one. But each of us have a different agenda so i dont really see much of a difference between PR and BN. BN is corrupted and so will PR be corrupted one day and we will be back to square one. The leaders of PKR are all formerly gloated out of favor UMNO guys. They are as corrupted to the core. Only way to go is for DAP and PAS guys who have not dirty their hands yet to rule.
we have to crawl before we learn to walk. and to walk before we learn to run.
if we look at the facial expression of YB LIM KIT SIANG, it tells a story of a thousand sorrow. but nevetheless, he have to give it a go to ensure that the pakatan works. but i still will remind YB to be wary of his ‘friends’ in pakatan.
PR don’t have Khairy.
BN have Khairy Jamaludin a.k.a. “Kera Jantan”
Mr Lee Wang Yen,
So as to force PAS to declare that it no longer pursuit for Islamic state, DAP also must be forced to declare that it no longer pursuit for Secular state.
Why bother? Maybe u can answer this simple question?
Right on the button, syncbasher.
It would be okay, for example, if DAP talked about equal rights for all State, or Malaysian Malaysia. These are concepts that resonate with all right thinking people.
But to call for a Secular State runs afoul of Muslims, who like it or not are the majority in this country. Islam is important to them and they want it in the public sphere. Thats that.
It is wrong to say that an Islamic State violates equality and rights of non-Muslims. Remember before there were Muslims there were non-Muslims, and Islam would not have 1.2 billion followers today if it was really as repressive as it is made out to be.
Is DAP serious about winning Malay-Muslim support or not?
Remember, where the leaders fail to lead, the people show the way. If Pakatan Rakyat fails like the Barisan Alternatif did, we should not rule out the possibility of moderates from both PAS and DAP combining, and that combination is going to be the one that takes power, as die hard ideologues remain in the fringe, as they always will be.
Luckily, people like Lee Wang Yen are in the absolute minority, otherwise Pakatan Rakyat will be a stillborn baby.
If Pakatan Rakyat has “friends” like Lee Wang Yen, who needs enemies ?
Tim Sng Says:
Today at 00: 20.27 (10 hours ago)
As for all the questions, it can be worked out….
For example, have you not considered that three diverse personalities…the Malays, Chinese and Indians have cohabited and intermarried since before and after Merdeka….100 years of marital relationships…..
Malay men marrying Chinese women
Malay women marrying Chinese men
Malay men marrying Indian women
Malay women marrying Indian men
Chinese man marrying Indian women
Chinese women marrying Indian men….
Tim Sng,
Original and pure are always better than mixed.
In order to achieve a non-racist Malaysians, it is not necessary that we have to be a mixed. Original and pure types also can be turned into a non-racist Malaysians. It can be achieved through education and changes.
Don’t tell me that you have to mix human with animal in order to have animal loving people.
To admin,
Please read care fully…
Learn from history,
The greatest civilization on earth was not born in a day. U.S also took more than 200 years to evolve to where it is right now. Malaysia merdeka in just 50 years and PR was just born in 3 days.
Give PR a chance. It is, and agreed a good step forward. Let us all as Malaysian further improved and fine tune it. Support your respective MPs, each respective PR parties and leaders, give ideas and assist them. We can learn from Malaysia history it selves, so that we do not make the same mistake again.
Start a fresh & start new. More discussion/ bermesyuarah internally & collectively needed, check & balance each other. PR does not have a burden of having to be in what BN was now. Whatever mistake that was done by each party in PR, learn from it. Understand the sensitivity of each race. We have in the past consistently against ISA, OSA, against corruption, to be transparency etc. Used these as the basis of good governance.
Let the future generation look back at 2008 as the important and most significant historical year for Malaysian Malaysia
Well said, Nazryan. Start afresh and start anew. No need to push each other to the wall, and demand this and that. Sensitivity is not a one-way street.
Godfather Says:
Today at 18: 03.52 (1 hour ago)
Luckily, people like Lee Wang Yen are in the absolute minority, otherwise Pakatan Rakyat will be a stillborn baby.
Godfather Says:
Today at 18: 05.33 (1 hour ago)
If Pakatan Rakyat has “friends” like Lee Wang Yen, who needs enemies ?
Agreed.
What use is a philosophical approach to a political issue?
Lee Wang Yen, agreed with your observation. I think PR in due course, (may be it is difficult for PAS to do now) must declare and abandon the Islamic State. The logic is simple: DAP’s and PKR’s philosophies are inclusive while PAS’s is exclusive.
Yes, what matters now is that PR should make that formal declaration.
No one should abandon any programme to set up a secular state in Malaysia, because there is no such programme as Malaysia is a secular state according to the constitution. DAP is certainly not engaged in a process of transforming Malaysia into a secular state, given that Malaysia is a secular state according to the constitution. What DAP has (had) been doing is (was) to prevent the erosion of the secular character of our nation, as agreed upon in our Merdeka social contract. The erosion began when UMNO and PAS got into a race to out-Islam each other in their respective agendas of Islamisation and Islamic state.
According to Dr. Ng Kam Weng in ‘Pluralist Democracy and Islamic State’:
‘It is therefore appropriate to clarify the relationship between religious and political institutions envisaged by the Federal Constitution. Of direct relevance is the clause which states that “Islam is the religion of the Federation, but other religions may be practiced in peace and harmony in any part of the Federation.” The additional Constitutional provisions that empower the government to render assistance to Islam, especially pertaining to education, require lawmakers to be sensitive to the concerns of Islam. But the status of Islam was clarified by our first Prime Minister when he explained that the clause referred to the ceremonial role of Islam at official functions.
To put the matter in historical perspective, we need to recall that the original architects of the Federal Constitution assured the Sabahans and Sarawakians during negotiations for the formation of Malaysia that the clause “does not imply that Malaysia is not a secular state.” Put positively, Malaysia is therefore a secular state. By a secular state is meant a state that adopts religious neutrality in a pluralistic society. Notice that neutrality is far from hostility towards religion. Indeed, a secular state should maintain a benevolent neutrality that respects the integrity and equality of diverse religions of the nation.’
http://www.kairos-malaysia.org/index.cfm?menuid=6
For political expediency, the safest bet is to keep PAS and UMNO at even keel. If we continue to nurture PAS to the strength of UMNO prior to March 8, we will never be sure how they will behave. Now, for the sake of “change, freedom and democracy”, every party with PR is benign and forgiving of its fundamental party principles. I think it is never wrong to be wary in political struggle. A few months or years down the road when the hard realities of power sharing and governing begin to bite, I hope by then we shall all have a more accurate assessment of the motives and agenda of each party within PR. Go along we must, but I think even Sdr Lim is cautious. There is a difference between compromise and appeasement; between cooperation and deferential.
Mr Lee Wang Yen,
PAS with its Islamic identity had been widely accepted proved in the last GE, strengthening its power in Kelantan and taking over power in Kedah. Now this means that its Islamic identity is well accepted not only by most malay muslims but also large chunk of nonmuslim. Then with the mandate given by the rakyat, do u think that ur call so that PAS denounce its Islamic identity deemed rational?
PAS with its Islamic identity received larger mandate from the rakyat and not to forget that DAP with its obvious Secular state call also followed suit. We all do know that Islamic identity and Secular call is squarely nemesis to each other. Politically, consensus was made and PAS had widely agreed to moderation of its Islamic state stance. But when further calls forced it to officially declare that it had abandon its Islamic state aim, rationally should DAP in the same way officially declare its abandonment of Secular state policy in order to respect the rakyat’s mandate?
Why bother to fascistically force the other half to accept what they dislike?
limkamput, PAS has actually tried its best to be inclusive. Remember PAS supporters clubs? Remember one whole MIC branch dissolved to set up one as such?
Now PAS is going to expand these clubs due to the overwhelming support they have recieved
http://www.harakahdaily.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13677&Itemid=28
Lee Wang Yen, if you want to get all historical about it why stop at 1957? Going back a little further we learn from the pre-Independence court case of Ramah v Laton that Islamic law was recognised as not being a foreign law but a law of the land and so the court took judicial notice of it and propounded it. This was a civil court.
And oh yeah, I believe it was RJ Wilkinson who said that “there is no doubt Islamic law would have ended up as the law of Malaya had the British not stepped in to check it”.
Islamic law has always played a role ever since the Malays became Muslims. To ignore this fact would fly in the face of Malaysian history.
And you do know that it was also “agreed” that Malays would have a special status above the other races (ie Article 153) and NEP right? If you’re a believer in that contract, why not just support and vote BN. They represent the position you support.
For the rest of us, who want a fresh, new deal, we’re prepared to negotiate a new social contract, where the Islamic State as well as a Malaysian Malaysia is on the table.
Plus u can say that secular means religious neutrality in a pluralistic society but history shows otherwise. Look what happened in Turkey, Egypt and France. Its secular principles that they practiced and it had caused eradication of muslims’ basic right to practice Islam. This impacted total scare on muslims nationwide.
By the way I think in order for Pakatan Rakyat to work, Lee Wang Yen and limkaput (as well as like minded people) should be kept at even kneel.
I dont think it is wrong to be wary of so-called “friends” amongst us Opposition supporters.
There is a difference between not getting the message of the March 8 polls, and getting it.
The secular character of our nation is enshrined in the constitution, as agreed upon in our Merdeka social contract. What happened before 1957 was irrelevant – unless one thinks that we should go back to the time when Sultans ruled or have a Kapitan appointed in KL or etc.
I have no idea whether the special rights of the Malay are part of the original constitution in 1957.
The secular state of the Merdeka contract should be defended because of its suitability for a muti-ethnic and multi-religious nation. We can of course talk about a new deal or a new social contract. But Islamic state a-la PAS cannot be part of it if we want a Malaysian Malaysia.
Now Mr Lee Wang Yen,
The main point why Pakatan Rakyat even existed is that to serve the rakyat. the rakyat demanded clearly in last GE that it want justice, no nepotism etc. The big picture is Pakatan Rakyat is for rakyat not to appease certain member ie PAS or DAP, so views that rejected either PAS’s image or DAP on the other hand seemed irrational. Similar chunk of voters had accepted PAS’s moderate Islamic image and DAP’s Malaysian Malaysia.
So why bother to force PAS to officially declare its letting go Islamic state aim? To appease DAP or to appease the rakyat? The clear answer was already laid out in GE12. Unless there r certain ppl who only want to appease their feeling and rejected Makkal Sakti
Pakatan Rakyat is Pakatan April Fool. Aim to fool everyone. look at Buntong ADUN. Even Karpal Singh feel a shame to DAP. Too much compromise on this issue
No one is trying to force PAS to abandon its Islamic agenda. There is no need to press PAS or/and PR to make that declaration if DAP does not form an alliance with PAS.
PAS is free to pursue any agenda that it deems fit as long as it is on its own. If it wants to form an alliance with a party which has already promised its supporters that it will not support any form of Islamic state and Islamisation, then its freedom its obviously constrained. But note that PAS is entirely free to choose whether it wants to gets into something that will constrain its freedom. The same applies to DAP.
Of course, DAP is also free to go back on its words and change its position regarding Islamic state and Islamisation.
And DAP’s supporters are free to decide what they think about this new position, if there is one.
Lee Wang Yen, if you dont know then do research (after all you seem to know alot on this secular state thing yet not know that). You’ll find that Article 153 IS part of the 1957 Constutiton, the many amendments notwithstanding.
Islamic State a-la PAS is a state that, hopefully, follow the true tenets of Islam that is not to discriminate, to be respectful of non-Muslims, to do things based on rules and merit etc.
A secular state a-la DAP can never be accepted by Muslims. Such a state would deny Muslims their right to have Islam in the public sphere, be governed by laws proscribed by their religion, and heck they wont even be allowed to dress as they want (ie wear a headscarf) such as what happens in Turkey, France and Singapore all in the name of a secular state.
We fight here for a pluralistic society. In such a society there is tolerance : differences of race, culture, creed, values and opinions are supposed to be tolerated, if not appreciated. No one should be marginalized by any of these factors by themselves. We pin hopes on the Opposition to fight for a more tolerant society, that appreciates and not punish differences or minorities. We cannot begin to do that if we can’t reflect such values of tolerance even here amongst ourselves when discussing issues of public importance or relevance in this blog.
In that context, why should we say “Lee Wang Yen and limkaput (as well as like minded people) should be kept at even kneel. I don’t think it is wrong to be wary of so-called “friends” amongst us Opposition supporters”.
Why ?? Why do we have to express such negativity towards people whose opinions we don’t like or find disagreeable?
The purpose of a forum as this one organized by YB LKS is to canvass a wide range of different opinions – even diametrically opposed view points – where is the clash is celebrated rather than condemned. How do we justify shutting up the minority opinion? Because it is wrong or because we don’t like our pet ideas and preconceived ideas and hopes to be challenged?
Let us not practise tyranny of majority here – by attacking the messenger and not even the message – as we accuse BN of doing.
At last, very much thank you for admitting Mr Lee Wang Yen,
Its free for DAP, PAS or PKR to choose, to be in or out in the coalition called ‘Pakatan Rakyat’. Well we all do know that they all commited to be within the alliance whether it PAS, DAP or PKR. They had reached a political consensus on serving the rakyat.
So thats about end of the story right Mr Lee Wang Yeh?
Surely you know, Jeffrey, that that was posted in response to the suggestion that UMNO and PAS both be kept at kneel. It was a very disrespectful notion in that it belittles two parties a large segment of Malaysian society supports. Not that I support UMNO by the way but to push both down like that somehow suggests of tyranny of the minority, wouldnt you agree?
And since I am on this subject, well it is the first I hear that a secular state a-la DAP proscribes wearing head scarf. Did Kit or DAP ever say such a thing? Malaysia is neither France nor Turkey or Singapore. In Singapore it is not allowed in schools only, it is not a blanket ban.
Thanks for your information about Article 153.
As I said in an earlier post, what matters is that we should retain whatever that is good and appropriate for a multi-religious and multi-ethnic nation in the 1957 constitution. The secular state provision is a good example.
In previous threads, I have already provided excerpts from various sources which indicate that PAS’s agenda of Islamic state is incompatible with the principles of equality.
For example, Dr. Ng Kam Weng says in his ‘PAS Islamic State Document: Critical Comments’:
‘To be sure, the glib answers from PAS officials may persuade some to accept the Islamic state.
At least, PAS has now laid its cards on the table with its manifesto that is sprinkled with the
language of piety. The manifesto even affirms fundamental liberties.
But the people need to be wary—what the bold print giveth, the fine print taketh away. On the
one hand, the PAS document accepts the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. On the other
hand, it specifies that the rights must not contravene the provisions of the Syariah. What can this
mean? Non-Muslims are at liberty to practice their cultural expression, presumably “within the
ambit of the Syariah.” PAS offers such concessions precisely because it is replacing the Federal
Constitution with its version of the Syariah as the supreme law of the land.
The PAS proposal strikes at the foundation of our whole legal system. Hence, we must reject it.
To borrow a phrase from PAS officials, we must defend our fundamental liberties and rights to
equal citizenship enshrined in the current Federal Constitution because they are “immovables”.
The Constitution formulated in 1957 and 1963 was arrived at through the tradition of
musyawarah- muafakat ( consultation and consensus) of the nation’s Founding Fathers to reach a
consensus. It epitomizes a social contract among equal partners that promises equality of all
citizens—regardless of race and religion—in a pluralist democracy.
In contrast, PAS insists on the Ulama (from which non-Muslims are obviously excluded) as the
final interpreter of the laws of the land. In other words, non-Muslims are relegated to a
subservient position.
PAS assures us that their rule will include consultation (Shura) within Parliament. But
unfortunately, without the premise of equal citizenship, and with PAS reserving the right to
make the final decision, such consultation will only be tokenism that provides a veneer of
legitimacy for PAS’ undemocratic rule.
What will happen when PAS replaces the current politics of democratic consensus? Politics of
mutual recognition will then be replaced with a politics of hegemony whe re all Muslim citizens
are ‘more equal’ than others.
2
The PAS document lists out various freedoms that include the right of mother-tongue and
cultural expression. But political scientists and historians often warn us that paper guarantees are
insufficient to protect democratic rights. For example, the 1936 Soviet Constitution (Article
125) guaranteed by law freedom of speech, the press, assembly and even street demonstrations.
It added that “these rights of citizens are ensured by placing them at the disposal of the working
people and their organizations of printing shops, supplies of paper, public buildings, the streets,
means of communication, and other material requisites for the exercise of these rights.” These
promises did not prevent the rise of tyranny.
Rhetoric must be fleshed out in concrete institutions to be credible. In this regard PAS’
document fails to demonstrate how the party will move from pious principles to concrete
policies in the context of establishing just institutions that will preserve the checks and balances
of political power.
PAS appears reluctant to spell out concrete details. Regardless of whatever concessions it
makes, PAS reserves the prerogative to define the limits of the rights of its non-Muslim subjects.
To be sure, the document emphasizes that “the citizens possess all rights to demand transparency
at all levels of leadership.” But sadly, such transparency was not evident when PAS was thrown
the question on kharaj. PAS gave a misleading answer by suggesting that it was merely taxation.
Kharaj may be deemed as merely taxation if it is equally required of all citizens but if it is
imposed on non-Muslims then it can only be a continuation of the historical policy of relegating
non-Muslims to the inferior status of the dhimmi since historically kharaj was considered as
jizyah (protection tax) on their conquered land. PAS evocation and evasion contradicts the
document’s assurance of transparency.
The practice of telling half- truths emphasizes the fragility of political language that is open to
distortion and misinformation. Barisan National politicians who look forward to a field day
attacking PAS and its manifesto ought to take note that their criticisms will have credibility only
if they are not seen as political opportunists, but they are genuinely defending the sanctity of the
Constitution and strengthening our democratic institutions.
I sympathize with my Muslim fellow-citizens when PAS seeks to impale them with a dichotomy
between loyalty to the Constitution and loyalty to God. But surely, the choice between serving
God and our fellow- men is both false and unnecessary.
Indeed, we may argue that religion plays a vital role in promoting a pluralist democracy when its
believers move beyond self- interests to promote the common good and foster social relations of
mutual respect in the context of just institutions.
The real choice for all of us is clear. We must choose either the present Constitution that
preserves justice and equality for all citizens and affirms the importance of religion, or PAS’
document that evidently undermines democratic justice and equality and renders religion
vulnerable to political exploitation.’
http://www.kairos-malaysia.org/index.cfm?menuid=6
That’s not the end of story if what you mean by ‘the end’ is ‘the end of expression of the minority view (as far as this blog is concerned) among DAP supporters on the issue of DAP’s co-operation with PAS’.
If what a commentator says about Article 153 is true, then we all the more need to defend the secular state provision of the 1957 constitution.
If the 1957 constitution with Article 153 is not an entirely fair social contract, we have a greater obligation to defend the good and appropriate elements left in it – the secular state provision – while seeking an opportunity to fix the unfair ones.
Ah, I see. A Christian theologian. Is it fair to quote such a person given his position? Is there not conflicts of interest (not to mention scewed views given the history both religions have with each other) here?
Judge an Islamic State on its own merit, not by reference to just what is good for Christians, but for all non-Muslims.
Here is the appropriate article response to the one posted by Ng Wang Yen above
http://www.ikim.gov.my/v5/index.php?lg=1&opt=com_article&grp=2&sec=&key=1106&cmd=resetall
“For political expediency, the safest bet is to keep PAS and UMNO at even keel” per Lim Kam Put in his posting at 20: 53.46 was made in defence of the secular principle as premise of governance which these two parties are not perceived by him as upholding. I don’t think he meant to be disrespectful of large segment of Malaysian society supporting these two parties. Anyway he is more than capable of defending why he said it that you find exception.
Many people support the DAP that stands for the secular principle.
Does it mean, alistaire, that if you don’t agree with the DAP’s secular principle upheld by it and for that reason say that DAP should be kept at even keel with another party like (say) Gerakan, you’re disrespectful of all supporters of DAP and Gerakan? I sure hope not. We’re supposed to tolerate each other’s differences of opinion regarding what Malaysia should become. All should be welcomed to argue their case and vision.
The name Pakatan Rakyat should be renamed Pakatan Rakyat Malaysia in short PRM. Just because the name Barisan Nasional is made of 2 words, it does not necessary follows that two words for the coalition is favourable.
The formation is just the beginning, and we expect members from the 3 parties will cooperate and work as a team, rather than bashing each other. If this is practiced other parties including those from Barisan Nasional may apply for membership. If everything goes well it will be the government in waiting for the country, and ready to form the next federal government in due course.
You guys should get Lee Wang Yen to re-post the various internet articles and wikipaedia extracts on PAS and Islam. He reckons that we will all be treated as “dhimmis” if PAS ever succeeds in pushing for an Islamic state.
How about it, Lee ? Regurgitate all the posts you made a few weeks ago on this subject ? After all, the minority has a right to be heard.
Dr. Ng’s arguments should not be dismissed simply because he is a Christian.
Anyway, thanks for providing the link. I came across that article recently. I think it is good to let the commentators read both sides of the stories and come to their own conclusion.
Judge one’s arguments on its own merit, not on the basis of whether he is a Christian or Muslim.
Is the kind of inequality mentioned in Dr. Ng’s article a problem only for Christians but not for other non-Muslims? Which of Dr. Ng’s points applies only to Christians but not non-Muslims who are also non-Christians?
We need to be clear that BN lost its two-thirds majority NOT because UMNO declared Bolehland to be an Islamic state. BN lost its two-thirds majority because of abuse over the past 30 years – abuse of power, theft of public funds, cronyism, nepotism. It wasn’t because Najib confirmed UMNO’s position on the Islamic state issue.
As one writer here pointed out, there are some who still haven’t gotten the message of the March 8 results.
A Muslim who holds a fundamentalistic interpretation of Islam will surely disagree with Dr. Ng’s pluralist democracy. But what matters is not whether the pluralist democracy agreed upon in our Merdeka social contract is acceptable to such a Muslim. What matters is whether the pluralist democary agreed upon in our Merdeka social contract is appropriate for a multi-religious nation.
I have talked to Indonesian Islamic scholars who do not share PAS’s interpretation of Islam. They embrace secular pluralist democracy and strongly reject Islamic theocracy. So a rejection of Islamic theocary does not imply a rejection of Islam.
Jeffery, if I did do that (ie suggest DAP and Gerakan be kept at even kneel) it would not only suggest I just disagree with it but also be condescending to those that do, given the large standing both parties have in our society. However, I admit this is just my intepretation. You might not have seen it that way. Others could, though.
Lee Wang Yen, the kind of inequality mentioned in that article is imagined and entirely without basis. Since he is an evangelical (as from what I read there Kairos Research Centre they are an evangelical group) naturally they have interest in restraining the influence of a religion not being their own. This they clearly attempt to do via the promotion of secularism. It is not difficult to see the conflict of interest that exists and since it does indeed exist arguments by that group, scholarly norms dictate they be dismissed.
By the way, acceptance and rejection of Islam depend on the same of the contents of what is in the two foremost sources of the religion, namely the Quran and the Hadith, not the intepretation of Indonesian scholars.
What is interesting is what alistaire said about the “fresh new deal” in his posting at 21: 06.44 – “For the rest of us, who want a fresh, new deal, we’re prepared to negotiate a new social contract, where the Islamic State as well as a Malaysian Malaysia is on the table”.
There is an implicit suggestion here that the Islamic State is reconcilable with a Malaysian Malaysia, which is on the table. I am sure by an “Islamic state” you don’t mean the kind ala Iran or Saudi Arabia kind as many would take it or do you???
If you don’t, may be you could outline broadly how such an Islamic state would be like that accomodates as well a “Malaysian Malaysia”.
According to your principle, an article from IKIM should also be dismissed.
By the way, Dr. Ng’s article is not an academic paper. It is merely a useful resource for our discussion here.
The inequality mentioned is entirely imagined?
I think Lim Kit Siang would disagree. In a speech in 2003, Lim said that…
‘ Speech
– DAP Kulai political seminar
by Lim Kit Siang
——————————————————————————–
(Kulai, Sunday): DAP opposes and rejects the PAS Islamic State blueprint made public by the PAS President Datuk Seri Abdul Hadi Awang on 13th November 2003, and the reasons include:
It violates the 46-year “social contract” of the major communities entrenched in the 1957 Merdeka Constitution, the 1963 Malaysia Agreement and the 1970 Rukunegara that firstly, Malaysia is a democratic, secular and multi-religious nation with Islam as the official religion but not an Islamic state; and secondly, the Federal Constitution is the supreme law of Malaysia as provided in Article 4 and not the syariah law as intended by the PAS Islamic State blueprint;
It violates the 1999 Barisan Alternative common manifesto “Towards a Just Malaysia”, to restore justice, freedom, democracy and good governance with clear commitment by all subscribing parties to uphold the fundamental principles of the Malaysian Constitution, binding PAS not to pursue the establishment of an Islamic State while in the Barisan Alternative;
Incompatibility with democracy in placing the PAS Islamic State concept beyond criticism by equating it with Allah’s injunction;
Incompatibility with human rights – the English text of the blueprint specifies the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), which is totally omitted in the Bahasa Malaysia master text. There is also no elaboration of the qualification in the English text that support for the UDHR is subject to the proviso that it must not contravene the Syariah, by spelling out the human rights in the UDHR which are offensive and unacceptable.
It ratchets up the UMNO-PAS competition to out-Islam each other and to turn Malaysia into an Islamic state to new and unprecedented height and intensity.
Although Hadi had welcomed public views and debate of the PAS Islamic State blueprint, the PAS leadership has not been able to respond to the many issues which had been raised about its Islamic State blueprint in the past 10 days, in particular on pertinent and legitimate questions about the compatibility of the PAS Islamic State blueprint with the “social contract” reached by the major communities on the attainment of national independence, democracy, human rights, women rights, pluralism, social tolerance and modernism…’
http://dapmalaysia.org/all-archive/English/2003/nov03/lks/lks2758.htm
The concerns Lim expresses in this article are very similar to Dr. Ng’s, though Lim clearly does not have a Christian agenda. Thus, the kind of inequality Dr. Ng mentions has bearing on all non-Muslims, not just Christians. I don’t think the problems they worried about were ‘imagined and entirely without basis’.
The point is simply that, given that there are many interpretations of A. To reject one interpretation X of A does not logically imply the rejection of A. But this does not commit one to the interpretation Y of A. There are Z, K, L, M interpretations too that we should consider.
Muslims disagree about how to interpret Quran and Hadith correctly. So things are not as simple as ‘what the Quran and Hadith say’.
A progressive Muslim will say that the fundamentalist has misinterpreted the Quran and Hadith. The fundamentalist will say the same.
erratum: ‘..given that there are many interpretations of A, to reject…’
///DAP opposes and rejects the PAS Islamic State blueprint made public by the PAS President Datuk Seri Abdul Hadi Awang on 13th November 2003/// – attributed to YB LKS (per Lee Wang Yen).
I don’t know whether for the discussion to proceed meaningfully – here there seems to be an argument with alistaire – whether alistaire’s concept of what an Islamic state is, is the same as in all fours with that which YB LKS had in mind, and for that matter whether it is the same as that which the PAS president had in mind on 13th November 2003 or whether it is the same as that which the PAS president still have on his mind post 8th March 2008. You have to recall that, according to Alistaire, his understanding is that the Islamic State as well as a Malaysian Malaysia can co-exist (I take it in the form that they are both reconcilable in principles) which is why it is now “on the table”.
I think it is most interesting if he could (for our collective benefit and kniowledge) show us how.
Haiya what are we discussing about is ‘Pakatan Rakyat-logical next step’
Pakatan Rakyat formed to serve the rakyat, mandated by the rakyat, all for rakyat. It is a mere discussion about it. Its formation is NOT to appease anybody either DAP or PAS, its for the rakyat for God’s sake. Its rooted on calls for good governance, tranparency, justice, equality, no cronysm, no nepotism.
Why bother to shout on principles differing each other?
Why not stand on principles agreed by everybody?
Why must fascistically force others to abolish their principle well accepted by the rakyat in GE12 for the sake to appease one’s feeling?
Hear me?
I addition to Jeffrey’s well articulated comments on my behalf (thank you, you said it much better than I could), I think there is a fundamental difference between PAS’s Islamic state and DAP’s secular Malaysian Malaysia. Malaysian Malaysia (or more recently, Malaysian First) is encompassing and inclusive. The concept has never tried to infringe on the rights of others or mandate a change in value and way of life of others. By adopting Malaysian Malaysia, I do not see anybody’s right violated or curtailed. Muslims will be still entitled to the full practice of their religion and way of life. Islamic state, (as I understand now) is intrusive and imposing. Rightly or wrongly, Islamic state calls for adjustment of non Muslims’ way of life. In the official realm, it is my belief that in an Islamic state, Muslims and Islam will be at least first among equal. Overtime, it is not farfetched to assume that bigotry and jingoistic tendency will dominate. For plural Malaysia, it is best that we take this widow of opportunity to “de-religiousise” and “de-racialise” Malaysian society. Believe in whatever religion or hold on to whatever value you want, but the moment you hold a public office, please leave your race, religion and value at home. That is the Malaysia I want to see it evolves into. America did not go secular for nothing; it is essentially to get rid of centuries of bigotry and racism.
With regard to tyranny of the minority over majority as alluded to by Alistaire, I don’t foresee how it could happen except during apartheid South Africa. But I could see the tyranny of majority over minority everywhere.
Let us hope this is the start of a 2-party system in Msia. The 2 parties will compete each other to show Msian that they can rule Msia beter than the other one! This is the ONLY way for Msia to progress further !
Pakatan Rakyat been new, have to prove itself worthy of rakyat support. but it also needs some time for this.
erratum: the progressive Muslim will say to the fundamentalist, ‘You’ve misinterpreted the Quran and Hadith’. The fundamentalist will say the same to the progressive.
Alistaire says: “….Since he is an evangelical (as from what I read there Kairos Research Centre they are an evangelical group) naturally they have interest in restraining the influence of a religion not being their own. This they clearly attempt to do via the promotion of secularism. ”
What you have just said is very interesting. If you think other religions have a natural tendency to evangelise or to curtail other religions other than their own, why are you not assuming that this principle applies to Islam also? Unless you assume that Islam is more benevolent than other religions, then I would have nothing else to say.
“Why bother to shout on principles differing each other?
Why not stand on principles agreed by everybody?”
After all “Pakatan Rakyat formed to serve the rakyat, mandated by the rakyat, all for rakyat” – syncbasher83
Surely there is also nothing wrong for rakyat as beneficiary to evaluate viability of a union (supposedly intended for their benefit) by weighing their common and complementary principles against differences and incompatibilities that divide them. One cannot be a longer term beneficiary if the union does not work. Talking about the differences that divide to see how they can be bridged is done to iron them out wherever possible to preserve the relationship.
syncbasher83, if you don’t mind a homespun analogy, surely before you solemnize a union as in marriage you don’t only look at the things and aspects that unite you and your to-be-spouse and forget or brush under the carpet the differences that divide (for example differences in religion and under which religion – the husband’s or the wife’s – that you want to bring them up later so that, once this is resolved, you don’t have to quarrel about this issue later and give the beneficiary (children) a night mare. :)
Lee Wang Yen,
u r totally wrong on the view of misinterpretation ‘the Quran and Hadith’. U r like an orator trying to view secular put up by DAP as the only one choice, the best for this nation…
and fascistically u r trying to enforce your view on others who disagreed with u…
i think u should garner more understanding on ‘political consensus’ rather to all the while u r the only one right in all matters while all the others were wrong..
cheers..hopefully YB Lim do get my point, “Pakatan Rakyat is to serve the rakyat, NOT to appease anybody”
Jeffrey,
i didnt mean to brush aside all the differences. I mean try to be compromise, tolerant to each other. If u stand too strong on your ‘greatest in the universe’ principle and not willing to be tolerant, u should not join in any alliance anyway. Ppl are different, we r created different to understand each other, to tolerate each other so that we will be harmonious with each other.
If it is true that some religions have a natural tendency to evangelise or to curtail the rights of other religious believers, the separation of religion from political power in a pluralist democracy is the best we can have in a multi-religious nation to prevent one religion from trying to curtail the rights of other religious believers. Of course, it is not perfect. But it is the best we can have.
There is no such thing as absolute tolerance. Neither should we try to achieve one. If I accept pluralist democracy, I cannot accept Christian theonomy or Islamic theocracy. If I accept the rule of law, I cannot accept anarchism. But some systems are more tolerant than others. So we should opt for pluralist democracy, not because it is the absolutely tolerant system, but because it is more tolerant than any form of theocracy.
Accepting pluralist democracy is in line with the spirit of tolerance. It calls for tolerance towards non-Muslims on the part of Muslims, towards theists on the part of atheists, towards non-Christians on the part of Christians, towards non-Hindus on the part of Hindus etc…Such tolereance is what we need in a multi-religious nation.
Mr Lee Wang Yen,
i beg to differ, history showed that separation of religion from political power in many countries on earth until nowadays had caused many erosions of people rights to practice.
People in power become more inhuman and curtailing other ppl rights does not occur toward the minorities but vast cases among the majorities themselves.
Millions and billions of ppl died, displaced and deprived of their right just as a cause to maintain the ideology of separating religion from politics for the benefits of the elites.
It is not only not perfect, its far from perfect, its the worst thing we ever had. lets think about it.
I have read Md. Asham bin Ahmad’s article “Debunking of Secularism” (posted by Alistaire) in rebuttal of the points made by “Christian Theologian, Ng Kam Weng of Kairos Research Centre” and note that nowhere in Md. Asham bin Ahmad’s article has he made clear what it is meant by “Secularism” as he understood it.
The closest Md. Asham bin Ahmad gets to is to say that “Secularism is by definition antithetical to all religions except those which have been ‘secularized’”.
Secularism is not, by common understanding of the word, antithetical to all religions. It merely means the State is neutral and does not take side to favour any particular religion making it favoured in public domain in a way that affects everbody whether belonging or not belonging to that favoured religion.
You can also look at it from the other side of the coin that the state favours every religion with no particular one more favoured than the rest but it secularism is certainly not “antithetical to all religions”.
Now his further qualification “except those which have been ‘secularized’” does not throw further light on what he understood by “secularism” – it is a tautology – since the word “secularized” is derived from the word Secularism.
syncbasher83, I agree that we should be tolerant and learn to compromise and work at differences (as in marriage) for greater good of the union but as always it depends on how major the differences, the more major they are, the greater the practicality of being open about them at the outset (before formalising the union) and thrashing them out in order to preserve the relationship later on after the solemnisation of the union from a major blow up. Don’t you think that’s wise?
Separation of religion and state does not require that political leaders have no religious beliefs.
Given that I’m merely a layman in politics or even political philosophy, let me quote from Dr. Ng Kam Weng again. In his ‘Pluralistic Democracy or Islamic State’, he explains that the notion of secular state is not inherently anti-religious:
‘The act to remove religious institutions from state sovereignty should not be seen as an act to undermine religion. On the contrary, the act alleviates the status of religion since its institutions become independent public institutions capable of censuring state authorities if it should arrogate for itself the final authority in human affairs. If anything, state authorities are morally held accountable to a higher transcendent authority.
Second, the separation between state and religious institutions is necessary to avoid possible conflicts in the event that some politicians exploit religious sentiments and incite disgruntled citizens to resort to violence. A quick look at Nigeria and the Indian sub-continent should serve as a salutary reminder against the temptation to mix religion and politics. Maintaining the precarious harmony between the various racial communities in Malaysia is already a most difficult task for any government. Confusing the boundaries between religious and political institutions will make matters worse given the conflictive nature of politics.
Some Muslims who are sympathetic towards a progressive and tolerant form of Islam may nonetheless feel obliged to back away from talk of a secular state because of the misconception that to support for a secular state is to betray one’s religion. Indeed, now and then, some Muslim activists accuse those who argue against the establishment of the Islamic state of insulting Islam. In the process, emotional rhetoric ends up forestalling efforts to develop an objective and rational approach towards resolving differences. The status of Malaysia as a secular state in our Constitution cannot be gainsaid. But we should move away from forcing the issue of having to choose either the secular state or the Islamic state. Instead, we should focus instead on the task of building a strong pluralistic democracy in order to avoid unnecessary emotional reactions.
The goal of strengthening pluralist democracy is a positive agenda. Acceptance of plurality is a vital prerequisite for building overlapping consensus among citizens with different ideologies and religious beliefs. In this respect, the goal of a pluralist democracy is to provide manageable platforms for the resolution of differences among citizens. That being the case, there should be a separation between religious and state institutions to ensure that national consensus is one that emerges from grass root interaction rather than one that is imposed from above.
Fundamental to pluralist democracy is the recognition of equal rights of persons regardless of their religious affiliation and their unrestricted participation in civil society. This is based on three democratic principles. First, the libertarian principle or principle of toleration. The state simply recognizes the inalienable right of citizens to practise – or even not to practise – religion. It is therefore inappropriate for state institutions to interfere with this religious freedom.
Second, the equalitarian principle requires impartiality of the state in not favouring a particular religion to the extent that it discriminates against other religions. This principle also demands that public offices should not be restricted exclusively to citizens professing a certain religious affiliation. This principle accepts that there can be different degrees of establishment of religion. Still, it deems the establishment of religion as, in general, an obstacle towards the maturing of democracy.
Third, the neutrality principle says that the state should not favour citizens simply because they are religious. The state must maintain impartiality between the religious and the non-religious, or between citizens of different religions. A pluralist democracy promotes a citizenry that is capable of transcending partisan politics and of exercising rounded judgment and careful weighing of ambiguous alternatives.
Hopefully, the above discussion will help dispel the common and unfair stereotyping of pluralist democracy – or even the secular state – as one that is inherently against religion. More importantly, the call for a pluralist democracy springs from a recognition of the fundamental concrete realities of Malaysian society. Furthermore, only a pluralist democracy is able to mobilize the resources from all citizens to ensure that our nation is able to cope with the unrelenting onslaught of globalization.’
http://www.kairos-malaysia.org/index.cfm?menuid=6
syncbasher83, for our education, can you cite some examples of countries (in history) where “separation of religion from political power” has resulted in “many erosions of people rights to practice (I presume you meant religion)”, “people in power” have “become more inhuman and curtailing other ppl rights” and “millions and billions of ppl died, displaced and deprived of their right just as a cause to maintain the ideology of separating religion from politics for the benefits of the elites”.
Jeffrey,
most muslims cannot accept a secular state
most nonmuslims cannot accept an Islamic state
please tone down your personal opinion for a while and think of my question as if you do not take side…
both PAS and DAP had garnered huge mandate from rakyat…
to call on PAS to officially denounce its Islamic state aim alone without DAP forced to officially denounce its Secular state aim is enough?
as far as im concerned, informed and proved. since 2004 GE, its PAS who had done alot of moderation to its Islamic identity. It is well accepted proved by GE12, mass entry into its Kelab Penyokong Pas, not to forget lately a whole MIC branch disbanded and these 110 nonmuslim Indian entered Islamic PAS Party rather than Secular State.
Politically…
1. Pas had strengthen its support among malay muslims at hometown and elsewhere plus convincingly well accepted by many nonmuslims by its moderate Islamic identity
2. DAP however only enjoys its support among nonmuslim and made no significant gain in convincing malay muslims of their political struggle.
The questions here
1. Isnt DAP who should learn from PAS to moderate its rhetorics made on secular state and hawkish anti-Islamic state stance?
2. Isnt it DAP who had been marred by various internal party problems before and after elections? that they should do more to strengthen their party rather than to tell others to denounce their principle?
We have a Christian theologian arguing for pluralist democracy and a Muslim against secular state.
Commentators critical of Dr. Ng Kam Weng’s position have not provided any reasoned argument to show which specific argument or point in his article is biased. They simply dismiss him because of his Christian identity.
On the other hand, Jeffrey has already pointed out Ahmad’s biased notion of ‘secularism’.
‘Most Muslims cannot accept a secular state’
Would you please support this claim.
I cannot affirm or deny this proposition without any statistics. However, the most populous Muslim nation in the world – Indonesia – is a secular state. Of course, this does not disprove or prove the proposition.
Perhaps what you wanted to say is that ‘most Malaysian Muslim cannot accept a secular state’.
But you’ll need to substantiate that as well.
erratum ‘Malaysian Muslims
wah really want a statistic izit? why wouldnt you just see what rakyat had voiced out in GE12?
examples, its the same pluralist democracy that:-
1) deprived, displaced and kills palestinians for the past centuries
2) Baath Saddam against kurds, iranians etc
3) US against innocent afganistan, iraqi etc
4) secular establishments in Turkey, Egypt etc against islamist
5) france, singapore- wearing tudung is compulsory among muslims women at all time. ban at public places only seriously eroded their right to practice their religion.
and plus Lee Wang Yen, can u please substantiate on your claim that some religion eroded others rights to practice their faith
Uncle Kit,
After so many years in Politics and meeting so many politicians, Do YOU SINCERELY believe PAS will give up their desire for an ISLAMIC STATE? Please give us your answer deep from your heart.. remember the Amanat Haji Hadi?
dawsheng Says:
April 1st, 2008 (2 days ago) at 15: 59.44
Logically, Pakatan Rakyat should also uphold the constitution that Malaysia is a secular state with Islam as her official religion
Do you think DSAI and Haji Hadi will dare to affirm that? If they affirmed it in black and white, I’ll be a firm believer although I voted for them… but deep in my heart I know they won’t!!
By IZATUN SHARI
(STAR) KUALA LUMPUR: Non-Muslims committing khalwat (close proximity) with Muslims should also be held liable for the crime, two Islamic bodies have proposed in a resolution to be sent to the Attorney-General’s Chambers.
The Islamic Institute of Understanding Malaysia (Ikim) and Syariah Judiciary Department Malaysia said non-Muslims found committing khalwat with Muslims should also be sentenced, perhaps in the civil courts.
“Muslims are sentenced in Syariah courts … but we don’t have the jurisdiction to sentence non-Muslims,” Syariah Court of Appeal Judge Datuk Mohd Asri Abdullah said at a seminar on reviewing Syariah laws organised by Ikim and the department.
“Their non-Muslim partners can probably be sentenced in the civil courts, to be fair to both parties,” he told reporters after closing the two-day seminar on Wednesday.
He said the proposal, contained in a draft resolution from the seminar’s findings, would be forwarded to the Attorney-General’s Chambers (AG’s Chambers).
“It is up to the AG’s Chambers or the relevant authorities to decide how to create such law,” he said, declining to say when the proposal would be made to the Government.
The two bodies have also proposed stiffer penalties for Muslims caught in such offences as khalwat, prostitution, alcohol consumption and gambling.
———————–
Adulterated Islam is more uncertain and fearful.
The analogy of the union of a husband and wife…it is not possible to find a perfect union. Marriages work when each partner can tolerate and even accept what he or she does not agree of the other and love him or her anyway. You learn to agree to disagree. Marriages though made in heaven must be made to work by man. To keep a marriage together and strong needs hard work. I will rather have a wife who has and let me know her unwavering thoughts and outlook or way of life so that I can learn to adapt to and live confidently within a known and predictable environment than one who has ‘adulterated’ thoughts who says and does things whimsically just to please or become popular to others.
St. Paul says it is even better for a man not to be married. DAP can stay single but if the aim is to have a Malaysian family and to hold them together, the political reality is that DAP has to be married to PAS and for the sake of the wellbeing of the Malaysian family, certain compromises and tolerance or acceptance of each other are inevitable for there is no perfect union. Otherwise, we would have a broken family with warring, not just bickering, members.
Many, if not most, marriages are painful and would have broken apart if not for the sake and the love of the other members of the family. And bickering within a family is a good thing so long as it does not permanently break up which if translated into a national context could be disastrous for all.
The Malaysian Reality is that Muslims and non-Muslims have to live together. We have to learn to live together but we have to be absolutely honest with each other and forever stick to fundamental and unchangeable values of truth, justice and integrity. All differences can be resolved by reference to those values which I think are identical to true Islamic values.
I didn’t make that claim at all. Please check.
You haven’t provided the relevant statistics.
What I said was ‘IF it is true that some religions have the natural tendency…to curtail the rights of other religious believers’ in response to Alistaire’s claim about evangelical Christians: ‘naturally they have interest in restraining the influence of a religion not being their own’.
“America did not go secular for nothing; it is essentially to get rid of centuries of bigotry and racism.”
The United States “did not GO secular”. Let’s not make false and misleading statements!
Nowhere in any of the 50 state constitutions is there stated anything like the “official religion of the federation” is Christianity. The 1787 U.S. Constitution has never been amended to include religion. There is no role given to religion in any of the original Articles I – Article VII and in the Amendments i.e. Amendment I – Amendment XXVII.
In fact Amendment I (1791) states that “Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof….”
The Preamble to the U.S. Constitution 1787 states “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
There is no mention of God and religion anywhere to begin with, and certainly the U.S. did not GO secular to “get rid of centuries of bigotry and racism.”
I agree with Lee Wang Yen’s observation. I have only praise for Jeffrey’s well articulated comments. I find what alistaire said very interesting. In fact I don’t remember disagreeing with anybody.
It is a fact that the three parties under Pakatan Rakyat have diverse agendas. Any attempt to deny this obvious fact and to force the three parties into a common mould will inevitably lead to cracks within the new coalition. This, I am not only sure, but very, very sure.
As a matter of fact, I do not see the ideological differences among the three parties as a sign of weakness. On the contrary, it could be Pakatan Rakyat’s trump card over Barisan Nasional, if handled carefully.
Why do I say this? Because the seats that were won by PAS would have been lost, had DAP put their candidates there. The reverse is also true in that the seats won by DAP would also have been lost, had PAS put their candidates there. Thus, by have diversity and attacking Barisan Nasional on various fronts with diverse strategies and tactics, the Barisan Nasional will be hardpressed to counter effectively.
This said, it is my humble opinion that while Pakatan Rakyat should have some common policies to hold them together, the individual state governments too must be given sufficient room to breathe. They should be allow to have some leeway within the broad guidelines set at national level. For example, let PAS practise an Islamic state if they must, but only in those states that they have won, NOT at national level.
Common policies at national level shall be based on basic universal values that are indisputable, like respect for the Constitution (and I mean the Constitution of 1957, with amendments if necessary, but not based on the present Constitution that has been severely molested by UMNO), respect for human rights, corporate governance, progressive economic policies, etc etc. Agree on what can be agreed upon at national level, and I am very sure that Pakatan Rakyat will be the next government after the results of the 13th Malaysian national elections are announced. No. 13 may well be the downfall of UMNO’s hegemony. If Najib becomes the Prime Minister before the 13th Malaysian national election, the RAHMAN Prophesy would be fulfilled and complete, and he should see his downfall, come election time!
YB Kit,
I think I must give to PAS is that it is very focused – and it plans ahead and has a coherent road map to work towards its ultimate goal.
A good example is the situation in Perak. The DAP was not (pre-election) prepared for the victories; you did not field a single credible Muslim/Malay candidate notwithstanding state constitution stipulates that the pre-eligibility requirement of the Mentri Besar’s position is that he must be a Malay/Muslim. Not even PKR, which although it did field Malay/Muslim candidate, did not however field anyone credible and qualified. In contrast, PAS was “prepared” all the way and thought ahead. It has Mohammad Nizar Jamaluddin who is not only qualified but could also stun the Chinese crowd by speaking in Mandarin, Hokkien, Cantonese, Tamil, then in English and Malay. He was almost MB in awaiting before the election. You know that PAS was so smart that it did not allocate resources so amply to Terrengganu because it knew in advance the BN would concentrate its fire power there because of the 5% oil royalty at stake……Instead PAS looked ahead and distributed its resources in other states like Kedah, Perak and Selangor where it pre-empted – correctly -that Opposition parties had chance to win.
Few would doubt the committment of those supporters who work for PAS – it is not necessarily for money – it is also for the Almighty – and their commitment exceed that of BN’s workers…In addition with the infusion of professionals, PAS’s strategists are savvy, knowledgeable and sophisticated to plan ahead of its rivals.
I give you another example of this planning ahead.
It must have occurred to you that whereas in the past – pre election – RPK of MalaysiaToday talked of BN’s cyber troopers, and those, if any, who infiltrated this Blog were not competent to convince anybody.
Today, post 8th March election,don’t be surprised the cyber troopers sent to various blogs including this one are from PAS’s. That is how far it works ahead. The pyschological climate of traditional DAP supporters is ripe for PAS’s political importunings.
People are receptive to accommodate its more moderate face presented because of the imperative to rid and displace the much despised BN.
You must surely realise that this uncanny patience and perseverance to change faces, plan and look ahead and to strategize effectively represents the greatest and insidious threat to the DAP’s agenda of pluralistic Malaysia based on the secular leanings of the 1957 Federal Constitution.
Lee Wang Yen’s unwavering commitment to stand for secular Malaysia is admirable, and no matter that his incessant postings on the dangers of creeping fundamentalism have engendered widespread criticisms here, they play the invaluable role to serve as reminders of the principles upon which the DAP has for decades fought for, which from 8th March 2008 forward, are beginning to be forgotten, subject as they are, to the pressures of compromise due to compelling imperative grounded on political expedience than principles of DAP’s having to work with PAS to effectively displace the moribund BN that appears to be directionless and imploding in the aftershocks of 8th March political tsunami.
PAS’s continued pursuit of its Islamic state continues to be a thorn in DAP’s side, making its leaders look hypocritical and threatening to erode the support of its base.
http://www.webkl.net/forum21.html
another good website for political discussion in malaysia.
“Lee Wang Yen’s unwavering commitment to stand for secular Malaysia is admirable, and no matter that his incessant postings on the dangers of creeping fundamentalism have engendered widespread criticisms here, they play the invaluable role to serve as reminders of the principles upon which the DAP has for decades fought for……” Jeffrey
Absolutely ! I’m still waiting for the postings from wikipaedia on the dangers of creeping Islamisation. I’m still waiting for the postings on the utterances of PAS leaders from previous years.
And perhaps I am one of the PAS cybertroopers sent here years ago to infiltrate this blog.
Dear Beloved Uncle Lim,
The rakyat had their voice heard in last GE12
DAP’s secular stance and PAS’s moderate Islamic identity both played vital role in achieving such shocking result
Why not use this diversity that we have in PR to confront BN in all fronts, they will be helpless…
Why bother to shout on principles that will divide us?
Both Islamist fundamentalists and Secular tyranny in both parties played their roles to garner support for the alliance
Why not use both of them to garner more support?
Why must put both of them in a position that they will kill each other rather than to help each other out?
Please DONOT force PAS to officially denounce their Islamic state aim as it will lose its basic support among Islamist fundamentalists.
It will also put a crack to the current alliance and force DAP to officially denounce its secular state stance and hawkish anti-Islamic state stance.
55% muslims and 45% muslims, poltically if this happens, its going to be haywire…
the rakyat’s hope and mandate given will be jeopardise…
Pakatan Rakyat is for serving the rakyat, NOT to appease anybody neither its secular tyranny in DAP nor its Islamist fundamentalists in PAS…both should work hand in hand.
I do believe in pluralistic society where we should be tolerant and compromising each other… ;-)
I did not simply make false and misleading statements. I am aware of what the US constitution said. What the constitution said and how it practised, however, was very different. The constitution said all men are created equal, but they did practise slavery for more than 200 years (please don’t come back to ask me to count exactly how many years). The constitution did not mentioned about religion but didn’t they get rid of prayers in school and other public function etc more recently. Am I not right? I am no longer a headmaster anybody more. Do we need a new one?
Talking about false and misleading statement, I think this statement is false and misleading: ISA is not evil, it is the abuse and arbitrary use of ISA that is evil.
sorry,… The constitution did not mentioned about religion but didn’t they get rid of prayers in school and other public functions etc until more recently.
Jeffrey,
I think your observation on PAS’s Perak MB plan could be a little farfetched. I think you gave PAS more credit than it deserved in that regard.
As for PAS’s uncanny patience and perseverance as well as the commitment of its supporters and cyber troopers, I am beginning to see it. Sometimes I wonder how an election result can change so much in terms of our (the opposition supporters’) world view, value and sentiments. I don’t know whether it is a false spring, so it is better to be in the cautious side.
See what I mean by sooner rather than later an interfaith dialogue is necessary to head of problems? The discussion on this blog, with some clear intelligence shows signs of high passions and emotions. The only way to mitigate this problem is to have long difficult discussions, public, transparent.
Its better to have these discussion in a public controlled manner where irrationality can be filtered out.
Religion is such a personal thing and people easily get irrational over it.
I once was asked about my beliefs and I said, I believe that there is a lot of things most of us have to do before turning to religion. A religious person than said she disagreed and that we would all be better off if we keep god in mind for everything we do. I did not have the heart to tell her, not only did she missed my subtle but critical point, she proved my case. Its because we would be better off if we keep god in mind in everything we do, we should not turn to religion until we really need to.
That is the heart of the secularist argument, that we are not so lucky to deserve a perfect religion – it does not exist. At the heart of Islam is that is not true but the proof is dubious much of it just pure faith. And the power of state is too powerful to just trust faith.
I said to the same religious person:, I think if I try to do good as much as I can without turning to god and even if I fail here and there, I bet that when we both go before god, my chances would still be better that the person who point to god for even one big evil that he/she did.
the way for PR to work is to disband all dap, pkr and pas. why wait for DSAI when uncle Lim is here. Definately he is much cleaner than DSAI and the rest of those former UMNO putras.
“I think this statement is false and misleading: ISA is not evil, it is the abuse and arbitrary use of ISA that is evil.” limkamput
My friend, we all can do without the spin!
This is what undergrad said –
“Suffice it to say that the “evil” lies not in the legislation as originally drafted but in its arbitrary use and abuse”
In the case of Joshua Jamaluddin in 1989, he was freed on appeal because the right to judicial review was available then but not today. There was abuse and the Court agreed. Parliament later removed it from the statute. Do us all a favor and read what he wrote. The fact is he is a lawyer by qualification and you are not. You could at least give that to him.
Ever been to surabaya lately? There’s a place called singapura surabaya where developments upon developments are taking place. Thus the economic activities generated has caused happiness amongst the surabayan people. So instead of dwelling on stupid old issues such as calling for resignation PM or digging out old graves, why are we not moving forward? Time passes so fast and by the time we dig up all those dirty files, its election time again. And we are back to square one. Meanwhile ‘rome’ burns while u jokers fiddles.
When we discuss a piece legislation, shouldn’t we discuss it in its present. Why before the amendments or after amendments. How does ISA operate as it stands today?
Does it allow judicial review, and if not, which legislation says so?
For your information, and for whatever you may think of me, I have always read line by line if I have the time Jeffrey’s and Undergrad2’s postings. If they are lawyers, well and good. I also see lots of doctors indulging in politics and running the economy. So is there anything wrong if non lawyer get into discussion with constitution and law?
Anyway this was what undergrad2 said in March 30th, 2008 (4 days ago) at 00: 03.54:
“Suffice it to say that the “evil” lies not in the legislation but in its arbitrary use and abuse.” I have had discussion with him before so may be because of that he added “as originally drafted” in the later posting.
I just want to know where the abuse and arbitrary use come from if not from this legislation. In any case, I think undergrad2 is capable of defending himself.
“The [U.S..] constitution did not mentioned about religion but didn’t they get rid of prayers in school and other public function etc more recently.”
Witnesses in court routinely take the oath by placing their hands on the Bible if they are Christians. Newly elected Presidents take their oath of office each January once every five years on the steps of the Capitol by placing their hands on the Bible. That does not make the United States less secular.
Christmas is a legal public holiday though religious in nature; the court ruled that it has become very secular in nature. That does not make the United States less secular. The fact that you find the words “In God We Trust” on U.S. currency notes does not make the U.S. any less secular either.
Prayers in U.S. public schools is voluntary. No one is forced to recite it. Students could even choose to leave the room while the prayer is being read. And it is non-denominational, not associated with any one religious faith. It does not make the United States any less secular.
You are wrong. The U.S. Constitution does mention religion but only to say that “Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof….” known as the First Amendment – passed by Congress in 1791.
The United States certainly has not recently ‘gone secular’ – or/and to “get rid of centuries of bigotry and racism” to use your own words. All this coming from someone who says that he lived with his family in the U.S. whilst studying?
“I have had discussion with him before so may be because of that he added “as originally drafted” in the later posting.” limkamput
I added that not as an afterthought but for the sake of clarity so that non-lawyers like yourself unfamiliar with its history could understand the point I was making. But apparently it does not stop spin-doctors from doing what they do best.
i did not spin anything. if you are caught for making a wrong observation, just admit it and move on. There is no need to be defensive because many others would still think you are one of the best around here.
I agree with Mr.Lee Wang Yen,
I believe, we in this blog are mostly hardline opposition supporters and not truely supporters of the happiness of the Rakyat.
A Pakatan Rakyat will mean DAP losing some of its voice over PKR/PAS, in other words, will have to eventually bow towards their policies, which are more Islamic. Now the policy is towards a ‘Just & Good Governance’, but the Islamic agenda’s flame has not died and will come back in future. DAP in Pakatan Rakyat is going to be like MCA bowing to UMNO in BN. This is what other people see in the Kopitiam Talks I’ve got from the average Chinese on the streets who have voted DAP or opposition. If DAP eventually bows to Pakatan Rakyat & PAS/PKR, the Chinese will swing back to MCA. They vote for comfortable way of life, doing business & happiness living in Malaysia, they are (90%) not staunch supporters of the opposition and will swing anytime.
Remember, we here in this blog are staunch opposition supporters as opposed to the masses (90%) who only wants freedom to practice their way of life, comfort & business-freindly environment. If Pakatan Rakyat cannot do that (by being too Islamic), they may swing back to MCA.
if you are talking about spinning, i must say that your comments of my posting on US government is spinning. It is the headmaster in you that is showing, not me.
“All this coming from someone who says that he lived with his family in the U.S. whilst studying?”
Undergrad2, I think that’s an unfair jab, unnecessary. Not every ordinary resident or citizen for that matter takes upon himself/herself to be as detailed into the law of the country as you, a lawyer perhaps.
Sigh…I can see that the name-calling has started.
Fact: The leaders of the DAP/PKR/PAS have agreed on a coalition to be called Pakatan Rakyat. There is a minority who still hold the view that DAP should not be part of the coalition, as PAS has not publicly renounced its Islamic state ambitions. We can accept this minority view, but the majority is ecstatic about the coalition’s formation. Maybe the majority is of the view that any alternative to the BN thieves has to be a better alternative, but only time can prove the majority or the minority right.
Fact: BN has stated that Malaysia is an Islamic state with minority protections. This was enunciated way before the March elections. So if the Pakatan Rakyat were to be dissolved due to “irreconciliable” differences, the BN will return to govern the various states, and we still have to live the Islamic state policy of the BN.
Ask yourself: Would you rather give Pakatan a chance, and stop all these nonsense about PAS having to denounce its Islamic state ambitions, or would you rather live with UMNO that won’t denounce the concept of Bolehland as an Islamic state and yet continue to steal like there is no tomorrow ?
What PAS have is good religion. Other race feared islamic state e.g. “Hudud Law” Stoning, Khalwat, Beheading, Gender segregation, all females covering themselves, banning of alcohol & nightlife, gay’s & lesbian right. This is not the freedom most Malaysian seek. Is it wrong to have a relationship, yes relationship did caused many social problems, but if you never have a relationship you will never know who is the right partner you want for life. In Islam you can marry more than one ladies, you can easily divorce your partner “talak” by sms. This is not fair to Malaysia females.
For DAP, they are more like socialist, they will tackle problems thru fairer distribution of income, savings & re channel funds to better improve the state.
A successful countries has its price to pay.
Singapore – FINE city (this is where income can be generated) majority of the ppl. are cabbies. Major stores are operated by Multi national companies (Great influx of foreigner funds). Every flats or condos have a community hall where ppl can play sports and the childrens can interacts. The transportation is great, can travel easily from village to town. There are many new goods and choices available we are still way behind their trend.
Can we change Kelantan? 50 yrs already passed. The al Quran can only be used for religion to be respected but it won’t help much to develop or create a wealthy nation. To create a wealthy nation there is sacrificed like Japan, most of the young ladies are forced into vice activity due to material pursued & high living cost. The man are very pressure because they must work hard and that doesn’t mean they can secure their own house.
for your consideration :
imho; the best way to please every1 and let every1 live the way they wanted is to have SAR[semi-automous region].
the region up-north where support for PAS is strong can be handed over to PAS,and let those ppl of these states to decide upon themself either to follow the implementation of hudud law or not. therefor they can at the same time be ultra-orthodox muslims,and still being a part of malaysia on the conditions that they:
[a] pledge thier loyalty to thier respective sultan.
[b] pledge thier loyalty to the goverment of malaysia,and remain as a part of malaysia.
[c] does discriminate against the minority,be they ppl of other races or the much more liberal/open-minded muslims.
Penang/kl/ipoh/jb as it is a predominantly chinese occupied island/land,be given to the chinese/chinese oriented political party,either a refurbished MCA,or nMCA or maybe a new party,as imho the current MCA is FUBAR in the eyes of the voters*. And let them run without “THE POLICY” or any other similar policies,provided that they shall :
[a] remains loyal to the goverment of Malaysia.
[b] under no circumstances shall the minority be discriminated,be they ppl of other races OR chinese imigrant from other states. contary to popular belive,majority of the poor in these area is chinese,among other races.
[c] contribute a certain percentage of it’s total gdp to the other less developed states for development purpose.
*—-u all said it yourself
areas/constituent with high indian population or all the area within 100km radiaus from Batu Caves should be put under an Indian oriented political party,and administered by indians.as indians only made up only a total of ~9-10% of malaysian population[based on CIA factbook estimate of 7.1% at ’04] and due to this fact it is impossible to setup a Indian S.A.R,there for indian community should be given preference in education policy and .gov employment naton wide, due to thier tiny population,they are unlikely to became a major threat towards the other community. As long as they remains loyal to Malaysia and deal fairly with the minority,I wouldnt mind living under thier administration.
the east malaysia,Sabah and Sarawak should be left as it is now,a semi-semi autonomous region[quarter-autonomous] :-) Altough the Taib administration has long had a reputation of being corrupt*,the fact that he is still in charge is a testament that peoples of sarawak had choose to live in inaction and submission,oblivious/apathic to thier conditions. having said that,the central .gov should really consider taking less money from sarawak,or at lease felt a little shameful for doing so. note:sarawak contributed ~3billion in tax to central .gov,how much it’s getting back ?
*——-according to public coffee shop opinion polls.
the remaining of the bulk of malaysia should be given to malays thru a malay oriented party,and following more or less the current style of administration,without the current mismanagement* that is, applying a moderate apporach in terms of religion and focusing more on accumulation worldly whealth,plus NEP in full swing while adhearing the principal that minorities of anykind will not be discriminated.
*—according to un-official and non-state controled news agencies. :-)
the central .gov would then be in charge of matters concerning defence,internatonal affairs,memajukan bola sepak negara*,and funds distribution according to a set of formulas agreed upon by ruling parties of each SARs respectively,and subject to reviews anually.
*—on a best effort basis
there u go,with several regions where major races runs the show respectively,and safe havens for all in case they happen to be unhappy with the place that they lives in,every1 should be happy right ? yeah!
p/s:i am uneducated,and i reserve my right to be wrong where ever it may apply,and as a citizen of a democratic* country,it is my birthright to hav the wrong opinion and held on to it,that’s my free will,and your right to disagree and provide contary opinions.
*—as seen on tv
=========================
for those of u who argue bout the U.S,
funny facts: the phrase “in God we trust” was written on u.s coins started during the cold war,as to provide a contrast to the “unGodly” u.s.s.r
funny facts: despite claiming “separation of state and church”,and in nowhere in the u.s constitution says it is a christian nation,different state have different policies,some of them liberal while some of them were more religious,that’s why there are devided in issues such as gay-marriages,abortions,and human d.n.a cloning. In some states it is illegal,while some state argue that it’s ok to do so….
funny facts: the only u.s constitution that i want to have is the second ammendment :-)
quote:
“lakilompat Says:
Today at 12: 38.11 (16 minutes ago)
The transportation is great, can travel easily from village to town.”
—liars ! there aint no village in sin’ city,u waesel ! ;-)
I suggest we look into more important issues at hand. Are our memories that short? Please don’t get ourselves distracted. What about these?
1. Remember the C4 explosive on Altantuya? Does
she deserve to die? ..this way? A high profile
murder involving VVIP(without a doubt!) and now
what’s dragging their feet, and who is being
protected? We demand the culprit be exposed,
whether he is the sultan or the deputy sultan!
The police must be held responsible for the
safety of all documentary evidence, that they
have not gone “missing” a common convenient
excuse in Bolehland.
2. The Judiciary rot, we were all not up against it? It
has to stop NOW!
3. Hindraf 5 hauled in and slapped with ISA? What
security threat do they pose? Any C4 explosives
found on any of them?
4. Those petrol monies, where have they gone? We
want record of where the nation’s monies went to
the past 10-15 years, a fair demand.
5. Haidar Commission on Lingamtape, where is it
heading? What’s next – man in the video talks
sounds like him and looks him.
What’s keeping them and who are they afraid
to expose, and protecting?
6. Land scams, let’s go for the corrupt conspirators
of BN. Zakaria Deros may be dead but there are
many more around in all states from MCA, MIC,
UMNO and Gerakan.
We have voted in and put 5 new Pakatan Rakyat State Govts to office and they have alot of work to do, not to forget those teething problems, being first timer.
Let’s be more understanding, stop finger pointing before they are even able to start. We should instead be throwing our 100% support behind this PR coalition, to help them perform to the best of their ability and deliver.
I think nobody is talking nonsense here. And not everybody is saying that PAS must denounce Islamic state now failing which PR would be dissolved. To say that would suggest that the person is not really reading properly what others are saying. What many are saying is that we have to be circumspect, not docilely agreeing to everything or lulled into complacency that everything is going to be happy and benign from now on. I don’t see all these as being nonsense.
Jong,
Thank you for stand up for me. I am tired of being accused of this and that anymore. When I respond, usually it will be harder than what they gave me. So, sometimes I do it, sometimes I let it goes. I got the inkling that even the moderator is after me. May be I will just behave for a time being because I am addicted to this blog for now.
Combating “Fitna”
By Ibrahim el Houdaiby
Last week, Dutch MP Geert Wilders released his movie Fitna, attacking Muslims and the Quran, amidst wide international worries that airing the movie would only lead to further cross-cultural tensions, and perhaps violence. Influential Muslim figures, including some Salafi Saudi scholars, had threatened to boycott the Netherlands while official figures in Iran threatened to review diplomatic relations with the country if the film was aired. Once again, the overall cross-cultural scene seemed less than promising.
Visit http://www.wagthedog-malaysia.blogspot.com for details.
To allasstra, u r a pretty dull person. Village to town mean those who lived in residential village travelling to town (city or nearby commercial area).
In Singapore vice activity is controlled and legal, in Geylang. This will add revenues to the govt. they called it “Sin Tax” where in Malaysia, it is forbidden but everday there will be news on vice raids. Govt. did not legalize it, but it is booming in Kuala Lumpur as it is supported by powerful and influential ppl within the BN govt. no matter how many raids the police have taken action it is only for shows that police is doing something. When tomorrow come, it is business as usual.
It is just a waste of the police energy, because the real syndicate head is enjoying his life overseas while news of his den is been closed deliberately for show.
Malaysian Law is used to protect the rich & powerful and punish the poor and weak. A hawker struggling his or her life to earn a living, but ended up been harassed and threaten by Municipal officer, the hawker have to pay undertable money to them so that action will not be taken and they can proceed to earn a living. A good Malaysian Law? A child was beaten to death, with all the photos taken by one of the security guard at a Datuk house, nothing happen to the Datuk? If you’ve any friends in the police forces, how many will tell you if Datuk or minister relatives were caught to possessed drugs, they have to let go?
Two parties with two very different ideology and belief tried to temporary compromise and tolerate each other in order to form Pakatan Rakyat.
Pakatan Rakyat will not last long and will not survive the 13th GE and will be defeated by BN easily. Thereafter, Pakatan Rakyat will have the same fate as Barisan Rakyat.
Most Chinese or Non-Muslim ladies or women never vote for PAS and will continue to reject PAS.
Most of the Non-Muslim ladies and women are having phobia of PAS’s ideology that championing male. Most of the Non-Muslim ladies and women nightmare is they no longer be allowed to wear sexily under PAS government and will be discriminated.
By forming a Pakatan together with PAS, BN or MCA will make them believe that DAP is accepting PAS’s ideology.
Therefore these Chinese or Non-Muslim ladies or women will vote against DAP or Pakatan Rakyat in the 13th GE.
Again the al Quran has been misused and drafted to law that male can have more than 1 wife.
During ancient time, many muslim died from war & hunger as a result there are many widows and orphan that need to be taken care, the Sultan is sad, and summoned his scholars to find a solution, hence in order to produce more responsible citizen and soldiers a man can take in 2nd wife. Genghis Khan or Emperor have more than 1 wife called concubines. Today, the chinese or indian don’t have these legally but are you sure they don’t have mistress? the only difference these mistress has no status in society as they are not legal wife. Again, many UMNO putras has abused this law, look at today news, a Malay just simply sms “talak” to divorce his two wife on April fool. The al Quran has solved the ancient problems but it has now been abused. It is not the al Quran fault, it is the people who misuse and misinterpret the true meaning. They’ve become ignorance and failed to taste the fruit of each seeds.
“No one is trying to force PAS to abandon its Islamic agenda. There is no need to press PAS or/and PR to make that declaration if DAP does not form an alliance with PAS.” Lee Wang Yen
Lee has consistently said that DAP should not get into any coalition with PAS until and unless PAS abandons its Islamic agenda. Now that the Pakatan has been formed (although it is still subject to each party’s central committee approval) without pre-conditions, the fact is that if the DAP were to withdraw from the coalition, Pakatan Rakyat would simply become “kaput”. This may not be the original intention of people like Lee, Dawsheng and Limkamput, but this will be ultimate end-result.
quote :
lakilompat Says “To allasstra, u r a pretty dull person. Village to town mean those who lived in residential village travelling to town (city or nearby commercial area).”
—-technically,thare’s no village in singapore. singaporean dont define themself as living in a “village”. and from dick-tionary,the definition of village is :
[1] A community of people smaller than a town
[2] A settlement smaller than a town
when i was there,everywhere is defined as township
“In Singapore vice activity is controlled and legal, in Geylang.”
are u sure of that ? do u mean prostitution alone,or all types of vice activity including but not limited to :
[a] drug runing/pushing
[b] along-ing
[c] illegal gambling
[d] blah blah blah-ing
=========================
and to wag-the-dog,please stop spaming ur stupid blogsite. if there’s no visitor,it’s simply b’cos it’s no good. period………………….
Limkamput says:
“….What many are saying is that we have to be circumspect, not docilely agreeing to everything or lulled into complacency that everything is going to be happy and benign from now on.”
This is motherhood and apple-pie, and is as good as lecturing an old warhorse like LKS to suck eggs. We should give the DAP leadership some leeway to decide on the latest course of action, instead of telling them what they should be doing.
In ancient time, food are scarce as they don’t have pesticides or fertilizers company. In every war against the crusader, land are been razed, this has caused farmine and food shortage.
Many muslim man volunteered and fought bravely against the Mongolians and the crusaders, they also inflict heavy casualty. Those who are young and weak are left to attend the farm, many old farmers died as it is very tough job to re plough the land again.
The wise ruler saw this, summoned his scholars to find the solutions, finally design a plan to have 5 times rest per day to recover from rest. Praying to god, for good harvest. Actually during that time communication is not so advance, it will take very long to know the military news from the frontline, the only way to solve the anxiety and fear is to pray. Nowadays, the technology is so advance, almost every working ppl have a handphone, don’t you think it is time for change?
Dear Mr. Lim,
If DAP want to join Pakatan Rakyat with PAS and PKR. It’s means DAP, PAS and PKR is rejected building Malaysia as a Islamic Country.
Firstly, in Kota Bharu, Kelantan, Kota Bharu is a Bandar Islam. Therefore i urge YB LIM to ask YB TOK GURU NIK AZIZ to change Kota Bharu by not name it as Kota Bharu Bandar Islam.
Second, for chinese drink beer, therefore, as a chinese who own a restaurant can sell beer straight away without apply for any special licenses. Chinese restaurant is for chinese. If Malay want to drink beer, that is their problem, why PAS have to strictly need chinese to apply for the beer and pork license?
Thirdly, i urges PAS to give license for the gambling betting station ie: Magnum, Sports Toto and Pan Malaysia Pools.
If these three agenda, is not solve, DAP is cheating against Malaysian by rejecting building Islamic Country.
To allasstra, i’m glad u checked the dictionary. Not everywhere in Singapore is city. They got residential village & commercial area.
Yes certain vice activity is legal in Singapore, try go Geylang and checked it out. Recently the 2 gambling licenses, the annual increase in sin tax will ultimately benefit the Sg. govt. Actually it benefit the man but it also create some social problems.
lakilompat,
your jokes for certain Islamic practices may have caused serious blasphemy toward ur muslims neighbours…
can u pls stop doing so…tq
limkamput,
There’s a saying, “it takes two to tango” and anger needs an opponent. So my advice is, ignore him and let this coward blah blah blah and make a fool of himself and he feels safe behind his ever-changing ID. Let others on this blog be the judge, if at all they care.
You cannot beat him, this despicable keeps changing IDs. I believe he uses no less than 6 IDs on this blog alone with the sole intention of upsetting geniune contributors’ picking on their slightest mistakes. I am sure regulars on this blog know who they are, and the sad thing is, do they care? …why not pass the buck to the moderator -racist, sexist and even derogatory, so what?!
This cybertrooper has stoop so very low as to impersonate me, and you in other blogs. There’s a recent entry with a racist comment, just go check.
“The US constitution said all men are created equal….” limkamput
There is just one word that could be said in response – bollocks!
qoute : # lakilompat Says:
Today at 15: 12.20 (3 minutes ago)
To allasstra, i’m glad u checked the dictionary. Not everywhere in Singapore is city. They got residential village & commercial area.
then name ONE,i challenge u !. as long it’s not holland village,cos it’s way bigger than average town in malaysia,and it’s even bigger than a town.
Yes certain vice activity is legal in Singapore, try go Geylang and checked it out. Recently the 2 gambling licenses, the annual increase in sin tax will ultimately benefit the Sg. govt. Actually it benefit the man but it also create some social problems.
semantics note: casino *is* defferent from gambling.a casino licence is more than gambling licence,vv. prostitution is legal,and not vice activity as u had claimed earlier. learn how to use words.
“finally design a plan to have 5 times rest per”
—-another example of u talking without using ur brain. i challenge u to come up with anything that can back-up ur allegations. u rectum-orifices !
To allasstra,
Are u trying to say every part of Singapore is city and that there is no residential village for Singaporean to live?
In Malaysia gambling & prostitution is illegal and considered vice. There’s a special anti-vice team to curb these activities from booming, there’s one event just launched in Johore recently where more than 50 foregners vice workers were detained in Karaoke. There is only 1 legal license granted that’s to Genting Highlands others are considered illegal and vice.
If “Hudud Law” can put a stop to the rot of the nation ie impose it especially on the hardcore pembelot-pembelot negara like the 42-billion-ringgit traitor/traitors and 4.6-billion-ringgit PKFZ running doggies, then, so be it. At our present so called Islamic country with the secular society, the thiefs/robbers/pembelots are getting away with billions in their overseas accounts. If “Hudud Law” can wipe out red tapes, power abuse and corruptions at the highest level, then, so be it. This country is heading towards bankruptcy judging from the way things are going if what Malaysia Today reported is accurate:- http://www.malaysia-today.net/2008/content/view/5339/84/
Why not as a beer drinker myself I would chose to adopt a healthier lifestyle and see those robbers be put to jail and have all their assets confisticated and returned to the country so that our children’s children can continue to find a place under the Malaysia sun? I’ll rather celebrate the good news with a cup of Kopi Jantan with all my abang adik than all alone with a can of Tiger beer .
“Hudud Law” especially for the pembelot-pembelot, that’s great news else nobody gives damn respect to the judiciary system, to the extend of saying it looks like me, sounds like me but it’s not me in the country highest court. By-products of the formal dictator. Should stripe off the titles Tun/Datuk/Tan Sri from a few traitors in the country, what a disgrace to the nation!
Yes, there are many issues need to be ironed out between PKR/DAP/PAS. More peaceful interfaith dialogs needed. But please don’t let these issues break the weakest link between PKR/DAP/PAS for a very simple reason, DAP can never standalone and rule this nation, neither can PAS. PKR may be as it is perceived to be a multiracial party but it needs time for recruitment. The very fact is in Pakatan Rakyat everyone needs to support one another irrespective of race and religion to break free from BN oppressive force that clinging on the nation for the last 50 yrs. No single party is strong enough to head on with BN at this present moment so a coalition is required like it or not. So learn to live and accept one another. Hey, we have been doing so for the last 50 yrs or more, so what so difficult about it?!
BN will win half of the battle if PR coalition fails. Many cybertroopers here will like to see the fall of PR too.
Bobster:
Which cybertroopers are you referring to ? Before the elections, the only cybertroopers were those from BN but now we have cybertroopers from the “extremist” faction within the DAP who are clearly against the DAP joining the Pakatan Rakyat, and who would rather see the PR fail than to co-exist with the auld enemy.
“The US constitution said all men are created equal….” limkamput
There is just one word for this – BOLLOCKS!
You mean this one??
“I’ll rather celebrate the good news with a cup of Kopi Jantan with all my abang adik than all alone with a can of Tiger beer”.
I’ll drink to that!!
Godfather:
Cybertroopers that are stirring racial and religion s*** trying to break the coalition. Member of public who read some of the comments in this blog might get into wrong perception of DAP. Worst if some of it came out from some prominent personal. Not referring to yourself don’t to worry.
Initially, I was subscribing to the view that the minority has a right to be heard, no matter how obnoxious their narrow-minded views may be. I thought that the essence of democracy is to allow the minority to have their say. Then the outpouring of anti-PAS sentiment, and the continuous regurgitation of anti-PAS articles and slanted Islamic definitions from the wikipaedia made me think that we could be dealing with something different, and not from a mere minority.
The essence of democracy has to be that once you have had your say, the decision of the majority must prevail, and that we either move on with the majority decision or switch allegiances.
Godfather, bobster,
Agreed!
Not that easy. May be these people love DAP like you and they want to see the party continues adhering to ideals that they hold dear. I think it is impolite to ask others to leave. They could turn around and ask you to leave if you can’t stand their views. With regard to whether it is majority or minority, I think the jury is still out. Today’s majority could be tomorrow’s minority as in the case of UMNO dominant policies prior to March 8. There is no outpouring of anti PAS sentiment here. Some are just keen to see their rights and way of life protected. We don’t want to go this far to go back to square one again.
“I think it is impolite to ask others to leave. They could turn around and ask you to leave if you can’t stand their views. ”
Did you, Godfather, ask Lee Wang Yen to leave??
You’re getting to be nasty, Godfather.
Jong Says: Today at 15: 20.35 (5 hours ago)
There’s a saying, “it takes two to tango” and anger needs an opponent. So my advice is, ignore him and let this coward blah blah blah and make a fool of himself and he feels safe behind his ever-changing ID. Let others on this blog be the judge, if at all they care.
You cannot beat him, this despicable keeps changing IDs. I believe he uses no less than 6 IDs on this blog alone with the sole intention of upsetting geniune contributors’ picking on their slightest mistakes. I am sure regulars on this blog know who they are, and the sad thing is, do they care? …why not pass the buck to the moderator -racist, sexist and even derogatory, so what?!
This cybertrooper has stoop so very low as to impersonate me, and you in other blogs. There’s a recent entry with a racist comment, just go check.
My goodness, limkamput. Can’t you go through this entire thread and find out for yourself how many are in favour of PR with no pre-conditions, and how many are in favour of DAP withdrawing from PR under the present circumstances ? Maybe there is the silent “majority” which favours the DAP withdrawing from PR which you are aware of.
I don’t ask people to leave – simply because this isn’t my blog. I did, however, ask Lee Wang Yen to stop harping on his anti-PAS views (and you must be living on a different planet if you don’t call his regurgitation of anti-PAS articles in various threads as an outpouring of anti-PAS sentiment) to which Lee replied that even the minority has a right to be heard. I don’t have an issue with that, but when the leadership of the party which you purport to support has made a certain decision, you as a supporter should not openly condemn that decision – particularly if it is one which can be seized upon by the BN thieves, spun in the mainstream media, and used to undermine the very foundation of PR.
I think he is now referring to LadyG and Kickbutt as the one and the same cybertrooper.
Huh got meh somebody was asked to leave?
Is this another version of somebody said that his minority view was being repressed?
common be a bit mature lah…nobody stopping u, others also have their rights to respond to your view as you has the same rights to respond to their view…
“……the decision of the majority must prevail, and that we either move on with the majority decision or switch allegiances.”
What does this mean? switch allegiances? who are you to tell others to switch. That is in fact worse than leaving this blog. I am been gentle here.
“I am been gentle here.” Many have seen your gentler side.
wat the heck, its becoming more emotional…
common both men, chills…
cheers!
I think the strength and vitality of PR is its ability to openly discuss issues that are protracted and difficult. Let BN says whatever they want. To think that the main stream media will undermine PR because of what we discuss here is farfetched (before election may be, but not now). Now we should try to get the best ideas to move forward. To me best ideas must be able to withstand vigorous test and challenge.
im adding 1 point into limkamput comment above…
….and realistic, based on political consensus, tolerant and compromise…thats sound better :-)
if you have not noticed, i think you are completely unfair to Lee WY. But I think by nature he never fights back. Instead he just concentrate in putting up what he think others should read. If you are not interested, don’t read. Nobody compell you to. Yes, many know-all fellows have seen my gentler side.
“…we should try to get the best ideas to move forward.” Now this is an acceptable doctrine, and one which any fairminded person would embrace.
Now, let’s talk about some readers in this blog who have openly stated that DAP should withdraw from the governing coalitions in Perak and Selangor, well before the formation of PR. The logical extension of this position AFTER the formation of PR would be to demand the withdrawal of DAP from PR simply because there can be no co-existence with PAS under the present circumstances. I can see that the majority of readers here don’t agree with this, and obviously the DAP leadership doesn’t agree with this, and they have gone ahead with the joint statement regarding the formation of PR. My questions are simple: (1) what else is there to discuss regarding DAP working with PAS and (2) why give ammunition to the BN thieves, irrespective of how low the probability might be, to undermine PR through the mainstream press or through other means ?
“I don’t ask people to leave – simply because this isn’t my blog. I did, however, ask Lee Wang Yen to stop harping on his anti-PAS views (and you must be living on a different planet if you don’t call his regurgitation of anti-PAS articles in various threads as an outpouring of anti-PAS sentiment)..” Godfather
That’s what I thought! It certainly does not sound like you to be asking commentators to leave the blog like it is your own. Not at all like you!
The strength and vitality of PR is that we all row together in the same direction, and not have to worry about the 10 pct (or any minority percentage) who wants to row in the opposite direction. And yet refuse to get off the boat.
I was worse than unfair to LeeWY. I called him “that Cambridge brat” and someone full of “hollow sophistication”. And I apologised to him. I also apologized to Jeffrey. In fact I apologized to everybody. Even to myself!
“What does this mean? switch allegiances? who are you to tell others to switch. ”
Yes, who are you Godfather, to tell others to switch anything??
LadyG:
Believe me, if I am doing my best to row on a boat together with 10 others, I don’t mind if one person just slacks off and stops rowing, but if one individual should decide to row in the opposite direction, then I am certain the remaining 10 of us would throw him overboard. Of course, we’d give him the option to jump off the boat before we throw him off.
BTW, I read somewhere that your best friend on this blog accuses you of switching identities, and that you and Kickbutt and others are one of the same. Is the accusation true or was he smoking something ?
sorry, I mean “One and the same…”
Can’t count, simple arithmetic lah, if one individual should decide to row in the opposite direction………….the remaining 10 of us……, huh?
Godfather,
Puffin’ the magic dragon for sure.
i think if got 10ppl rowing a boat…
9 rowing north…
but 1 rowing south…
i guess the boat still going north rite?
just never mindlah that 1 want to row south, its his rights
dont throw him off the boat coz u r no longer 10ppl rowing a boat
:-)
Godfather,
Didn’t you get an ‘A’ in Stats when you were at MU? Who lectured you in Stats? Was it Paul Chan?
“A” in stats, paul chan and MU, i think you guys have no idea who are reading this blog lah. So “action” for what? What stats, elementary stats for social science ar?
limkamput,
Why do you want to drop their water face? :D
come on, we are suppose to use this site to discuss social and political issues, not to insult each other. In life, whatever you may have achieved in your ‘learning days’ are hardly of use after you have worked for a couple of years. Your experience and street smartness become vital. so forget about all those As you may have acquired. Insult is easy to fling but the negative emotion created is bad for both of you! So let’s ease of on such trade!
You don’t need an ‘A’ in stats to figure out that if you are in a boat with 10 others, then there must be 11 persons on the boat. Of course when you have an “attap” education, and a suspicious mind, then you start to imagine that it is a trick question, and that therefore the answer must be something else.
Respect must be earned, not forced.
Badawi may have failed his entrance exam in stats, but I think he would have gotten the arithmetic right compared to the superior person writing in this blog who has eaten more salt that others have eaten rice.
DISCLAIMER
Please be informed that I shall not be liable for aspersions cast on the character of one Lee Wang Yen by the above statement.
Got “A” for statistics, PM failed, MU, Paul Chan, I have worked with this fellow and that fellow, hiding behind different IDs, including impersonating others in other blogs, fanatical, blind, supreme court judge attitude, peronality disorder, split personalities, great pretenders, collusion, ..cher….
My feather is just too bright for you ok despite my attap education and lack of “A”. Sorry, “A” in what again, elementary statistics? You mean calcualting mean, medium and mode and standard deviation? You know why you square the difference and then take the square root again or not?
To bobster, i’m not try to be biased to “hudud law” even “law” itself can’t handle to put rich & powerful Malaysian to justice. The Atlantuya case, Norita case, Canny Ong case and Lingam case. Like Canny Ong case, the guy admitted to kill her, but this man is not sentenced to death, while the victim died, the family members are in despair, is justice enough?
If a poor child steal for food, is it not cruel to chop his hand, if a young pretty girl committed adultery is it cruel to mutilate the genital? i don’t see such a cruel act can curb anything and bring justice?
I’m not saying all “hudud law” is not good, just hope religion don’t mix into law. Law should be free from all kind of bias, gender bias, religion bias, income bias etc.
In fact why blame on law? if the law enforcer or leader did not harness it, and practice proper implementation of law. It is the police we should blame, because the Rakyat pay taxes to them, they must effectively deliver results such as solving the criminal cases etc. Therefore, Law is independent from all kind of biasness, the police must be independent as well without siding to any coalition whether it is ruling or opposition.
Problem is in Malaysia police is [deleted] look at Datuk Seri Anwar Ibrahim case in 1998 Rahim was ordered to beat Datuk Seri Anwar Ibrahim while in cell. What Datuk Seri Anwar Ibrahim have done till Rahim (chief police) have to beat an armless man? It has clearly shows us that our police forces are not yet independent.
In order for PR to be successful, they must make sure “Law” is not bias toward religion, income group and parties. And 2nd, “Law” must be enforce by independent that is the Police. There should be a group of Police Commissioner, to monitor how effective Police carry out the law something like (ICAC).
I don’t think that Anwar was armless when he was beaten by Rahim Noor, but the point is valid – the institutions of enforcement must report to Parliament, more specifically to non-partisan parliamentary select committees like in the US.
Is it my imagination, or has anyone noticed that the police in the Klang Valley are nowhere to be seen nowadays ? The traffic jams are getting worse, and the traffic police has been conspicously absent.
Hope PR will adopt following or set the example to BN or future gov:
1. Rotational Leadership & maximum of 2 terms; regardless of ethnic, religion, son, daughter, son-in-law, out-laws…etc etc. Most important is to have the capacity to serve righteously.
2. PR-Chairman/President to be voted in base on popular vote; not party leadership. Party leadership to be nominated for the post, naturally.
3. Financial statements to be made public; to serve the purpose of being transparent, integrity & justice to the public.
4. Do not highlight only achievements from time to time (giving credit to unsung heroes as well) but also that has yet to be achieved (& why) & what are the future objectives (purpose) to achieve (from this basis, all MPs should be rated with KPI set out by PR committee or exco)
5. Finalise the structure of PR soon…as this will be a speculation by all…including “opposition” parties :D.
Did I leave out or over stressed some points? Pls do amend/correct. Just my opinion.
There pjboy, those are not possible. Say is easy perform is hard. It is easy to propose the Federal Govt. to subsidize the 2nd Penang bridge but are they interested? Do you think a foreigner will come to your country if your own government is not interested to invest in its own infrastructure? look at JB-Singapore, Penang-Mainland jammed everyday, even import & export are affected this in return impact the inflow and outflow of funds.
Remember there’s a move for all ministers to declare assets. But do you think they will really declare it (opposition & ruling)? I think the new Selangor MB can explain in length. This is just a gimmick for a just and transparent govt.
I think Rakyat hope the alternative party can help minimize corruptions and make a better Malaysia.
Sorry to admin, the [deleted] in my previous statement was a statement made by Datuk Seri Anwar Ibrahim when Rahim enter his cell to introduce himself to him. I’m [deleted] here to punish you.
No offend to the police, the police should seek Rahim to apologize for defaming them.
from the nstp: “If people want to ask how PKR and DAP can work with Pas, then the same logic must be applied to how Umno can work with MCA and MIC,” said PKR information chief Tian Chua.
This is a stupid observation, Tian Chua! Look MCA and MIC do NOT work with UMNO, they docilely serve UMNO. Do you, PKR and DAP want to serve or work with PAS?
Could he be misquoted, as it was from NSTP ?
Good question, but i have no answer. Please also read Farish’s latest posting. I think the tendency to dominate is always there.
lakilompat Says:
If a poor child steal for food, is it not cruel to chop his hand, if a young pretty girl committed adultery is it cruel to mutilate the genital? i don’t see such a cruel act can curb anything and bring justice?
– Well, am not referring to these type of crime. Hudud for hardcore criminals etc pengkianat2 negara that suits them since they are living in the law of the jungle and no fear of present law if any.
Godfather Says:
Is it my imagination, or has anyone noticed that the police in the Klang Valley are nowhere to be seen nowadays ? The traffic jams are getting worse, and the traffic police has been conspicously absent.
– Feel the same. Traffic getting worst. My area before election always there. After election, now you see them now you don’t. Even there stand there doing nothing. Yesterday usual 7 min journey to highway became 25 min, with the presence of 2 officers! B****at! Wasting taxpayers $$ and trying to be funny with rakyat!!
Kota Damansara to be precised. Many people are not happy with the traffic police. Traffic light main cause of jam. Can someone advice which channel can we residents submit our complaint? MBPJ? DAP? PKR?
To Bob, “Hudud for hardcore criminals etc pengkianat2 negara that suits them since they are living in the law of the jungle and no fear of present law if any.”
You think Hudud law will give a good punishment, in fact it is not, it is cruel, and inhumane.
The world protect the rich and powerful, how many rich man & powerful man were sentenced to death? only when they become less powerful then you can hanged them, classic example is the hanging of Saddam Hussein, behead of Goths King by Julius Caesar due to his betrayal.
My dear friend, again this is just an illustration. Call it Hudud Law whatsoever. If there was such mechanism that can bring the super rich & powerful that siphon millions and billions from public coffer to justice then the rakyat should push for it before the nation gone into bankruptcy. That’s my 2 cents.
I’m sry to tell you Bob, there is no law to protect the poor & weak. The poor & weak country will get sanction by rich & powerful country, this is always the norms in real life. The US (George Bush) is rich & powerful, it has lots of reserve oil, it can manipulate world leaders such as UK (Tony Blair) or Australia (John Howard) it can sanction trade embargoes on Iran or country they term it as exis of evil. Internationally, law is govern by the rich & powerful, the nation which are weak & cruel in term of leadership but rich in term of resources, will be in the casualty list (Iraq & The Taliban).
With money you will have followers, or cronies. People tend to forgot who is Khairy Jamaludin, who is Patrik Lim and who is Kamaludin Abdullah, 1 night billionaires at the expense of whom? with money you can delay cases like Atlantuya end up like Norita case. Law is there to be manipulated by the rich and powerful. ISA is a clear indication, the federal govt. shows you there is no law except the law of jungle.
You all must start educate the old and young abt. the govt. so that they are political informed. Always look outside the box, learn from history, good law won’t last bad law even worst. There are many qualities literature whereby you can study and feel what is the situation during the ancient time compare to now.
Yup, traffic was very bad yesterday in Klang…but not sure if it was like that everyday. Also, still a lot of the BN political banners hanging around all over PJ. Not to mention, a few PAS / PKR flags.
Actually, we don’t need to look very far – even on Malaysian roads we see BIG cars bully SMALL cars. This is everyday life in Malaysia. There is hardly any courtesy at all.
Dear pjboy, u forgot to mention those with bikes & bicycles.