Posted on by Kit

Songkok as compulsory uniform for prefects – JB English College backs down

At 20:56,19 hours yesterday, on my thread “Songkok compulsory wear for JB English College prefects”, a blog visitor left the following posting:

However, as far as the “EC prefect wearing songkok issue” is concerned, I am surprised that no one has yet posted that the issue has been resolved amicably as the headmaster himself has announced today during an emergency prefects meeting that it is NOT compulsory for the prefects to wear the songkok for whatever function or duty.

This morning, I phoned and spoke to the principal of Maktab Sultan Abu Bakar (formerly English College) Johor Bahru, Haji Zulkifli bin Mahmood and he confirmed the veracity of the posting on my blog – that he had announced that it is not compulsory for school prefects to wear the songkok for whatever function or duty.

I welcome the return to sanity, as the compulsory imposition of the songkok issue has attracted considerable flak and traffic on my blog with three threads and 359 comments in four days, viz:

1. Songkok compulsory wear for JB English College prefects (11.1.08) – 133 comments

2. Songkok made compulsory – latest in series of insensitivities usurping “middle ground” (11.1.08) – 87 comments

3. Suspend “Little Napoleons” school principals who trample on rights and sensitivities of plural Malaysia (12.1.08) – 139 comments

I commend the parent of the school prefect who not only gave full support to his son, a Form Five student who had been a prefect since he was Form Two, to stand firm on principle to the extent of being prepared to resign as school prefect and for bringing this issue into public domain to bring public pressure to end abuses and misuses of power and rank disregard of the legitimate rights and sensitivities of all communities and religions in plural Malaysia.

The lesson here is clear – Malaysians must stand up for their fundamental and constitutional rights as citizens of a plural nation as nobody will stand up for them unless they are prepared to come forward to speak and cry out against excesses and abuses of power. If they do so, they can be assured of the support of right-thinking middle-ground moderate Malaysians – and this blog is dedicated to defend our fundamental constitutional citizenship rights.

141 Replies to “Songkok as compulsory uniform for prefects – JB English College backs down”

  2. I don’t think that we should adopt such an alarmist attitude as suggested by melurian. My Malay friends are generally surprised by the “opposition” to the wearing of the songkok at official functions for they constantly see non-Muslims wearing them at swearing-ins, royal functions, etc. They can’t understand what the fuss is all about, although most of them are in agreement that if you don’t like to wear it, then don’t.

  3. wearing Songkok or whatever is not a question, but the illed motive behind it is what matter most.most of the time a race and /or religion and culture is nothing wrong but the human being who behind all these fuss is a difficulty and never ending.

  4. “….//…The lesson here is clear – Malaysians must stand up for their fundamental and constitutional rights as citizens of a plural nation as nobody will stand up for them unless they are prepared to come forward to speak and cry out against excesses and abuses of power. If they do so, they can be assured of the support of right-thinking middle-ground moderate Malaysians – and this blog is dedicated to defend our fundamental constitutional citizenship rights…//…” – YB Kit

    Thank you. That is why we visit, read and take time to make contributions to this Blog. the outcome like the reversal of decision in Maktab Sultan Abu Bakar (formerly English College) makes it all worthwhile.

    I end with a statement often attributed to Thomas Jefferson, the third President of the United States (1801–1809) and the principal author of the American Declaration of Independence (1776) -“Lethargy is the forerunner of death to the public liberty…It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to
    the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he breaks, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt.” :)

  7. It does make sense not wearing it except for special national public functions otherwise if a non Malay donne with a songkok is found eating pork in a hawker stall it would be mistakenly viewed as a provocation that could lead to racial disaster!!!

  8. Saya juga kadangkala hairan, apa istimewanya tali leher dan kot, selain dari ianya adalah kesan peninggalan penjajah.

    Songkok melayu mengikut spesifikasi istana adalah jauh lebih baik drpd Tali leher penjajah. sekurang2nya menunjukkan identiti raja.

    Songkok 3.5 inci adalah mengikut spesifikasi istana, ketika hari raya, walaupun ramai orang menjual songkok, namun kebanyakkannya ialah 3 inci, nak cari 3.5 inci ikut spesifikasi istana agak susah.

    Adakalanya saya tidak faham pada golongan cina.
    Apabila ianya Inggeris, maka ia dianggap “standard”, walhal Inggeris adalah bukan idenitti bangsa cina.

    Akan tetapi apabila menggunakan identiti Melayu, cepat pula nak melenting.

    Jika orang Cina nak jadi Inggeris, tak perlu memaksa orang bukan cina untuk jadi Inggeris.

    Begitu juga soal bahasa.
    Bila Menteri Melayu nak ajar sains dan matematik dalam Inggeris, kenapa pula nak paksa pelajar cina untuk diinggeriskan.

    Apabila pada tahun baru cina, identiti bangsa seperti pakaian tradisional cina diganti dengan pakaian barat, tolong lah jangan persoalkan kenapa orang melayu pakai baju melayu dan orang india memakai sari.

    Di sini saya nak cuba sampaikan, bahawa Identiti bangsa perlu dikekalkan, walaupun orang cina, berbangsa malaysia, akan tetapi bila mengikut sistem beraja, maka janganlah dilabel pakaian itu sebagai ianya pakaian kaum tertentu.

    Tahun baru cina yang akan datang, saya harap lebih ramai kaum cina berpakaian tradisional cina, berbanding dengan pakaian barat, pakaian penjajah.

    Nampak pelik juga, pakaian kaum seMalaysia diperlekeh, pakaian penjajah disanjung. Saya sendiri pakai pakai tradisional cina pada tahun baru cina, namun itu tidak menghilangkan identiti saya sebagai Melayu.

    Jika pengawas cina memakai songkok berspesifikasi Instana, maka anggaplah diri sebagai rakyat yang taat pada Raja.

    Tapi jangan lah pula memakai songkok versi tinggi lebih dari 4 inci kerana itu spefisikasi UMNO :)

    Jadi kalau nak beli songkok, sila beli yang 3.5 inci, jangan beli 3 inci, jangan beli 4 inci atau lebih.

  9. SONGKOK MAKER,
    HAJA MOHIDIN
    157, King Street (11 am – 5pm)

    Songkok is an oval shaped religious headgear worn by Muslim men to complement the traditional Malay costume, especially during prayers and other religious ceremonies. It was first introduced by traders and migrants from various Muslim countries along with the less popular headgears such as Tarbus and Kopiah. The songkok that Haja Mohidin makes is adapted from the Acheh variation since his business back then were catered primarily to the large Acehnese settlers and Haj Pilgrims in Penang.
    http://magazine.virtualmalaysia.com/content.cfm/ID/F5839374-41E4-4322-8932579624B5B292

  10. “You know, we ustazs, we always wear songkok or kopiah and baju melayu. I tell you, when kids see us they run off. They don’t want to hear religious lectures. If I’m them, I wouldn’t either. So! I’m thinking of wearing a tee-shirt, jeans and a baseball cap, go to Pantai Batu Burok… and hang out with the boys there. Talk to them. Soft approach. But when I tell my friends this they think it’s cracked.”
    http://www.malaysiakini.com/rentakini/54556

  11. I spoke to my sister who happens to know the Pegetua of MSAB about this songkok issue and she says as far as she knows, the Pengetua is not that type of extremist “little Napoleons”. To be fair to the man, he may not be the person who issued the instruction because in the words of the parent who wrote to YB Lim:

    “….there was an instruction from the school, which I believe came from the teacher advisor to the Prefectorial Board,……”

    ….it seems to indicate that the instructions came from the teacher advisor and it could have been issued without the prior knowledge of the Pengetua. If this is true, giving credit where credit is due, the Pengetua should be commended for his quick action to nullify such silly instructions given by equally silly people.

  12. “I welcome the return to sanity……”

    Very good choice of words. There is too much of insanity around with the prohibition of the word “Allah” topping the list.
    When will the others return to sanity?

  13. sebol Says:
    Jika pengawas cina memakai songkok berspesifikasi Instana, maka anggaplah diri sebagai rakyat yang taat pada Raja.

    Yo man…i reply u in BM since ur comment is in BM.. memandangkan kamu berpendirian bahawa “Jika pengawas cina memakai songkok berspesifikasi Instana, maka anggaplah diri sebagai rakyat yang taat pada Raja”..adakah kamu pernah terfikir apa akan terjadi jika seorang pelajar CINA yang disangkakan seorang pelajar Melayu melanggar tata-tertib agama Islam?..erm..contohnya..makan makanan yang dilarang oleh orang Melayu?..Apa akan terjadi?..Saya berpendapat bahawa memakai songkok bukanlah melanggar peraturan atau seseorang yang tidak memakai songkok tidak semestinya suatu perkara yang tidak taat kepada Raja?…Sebenarnya masyarakat Malaysia yang terlalu konservatif dalam sesuatu perkara yang remeh temeh..Bolehkan saya bertanya..berapa sahabat anda yang berbangsa cina memakai songkok?..

  14. Pembetulan:
    adakah kamu pernah terfikir apa akan terjadi jika seorang pelajar CINA yang disangkakan seorang pelajar Melayu memakai songkok dan melanggar tata-tertib agama Islam

    sebol Says:
    Jika pengawas cina memakai songkok berspesifikasi Instana, maka anggaplah diri sebagai rakyat yang taat pada Raja

    –> Berapa sahabat melayu di sini yang memakai “SONGKOK BERSPESIFIKASI ISTANA”? maksudnya songkok 3 inci menunjukkan rasa tidak taat kepada Raja? Seperti yang kamu nyatakan bahawa bukan senang untuk mendapatkan Songkok berspesifikasi istana iaitu 3inci..

  15. Cinapek Says:
    “….there was an instruction from the school, which I believe came from the teacher advisor to the Prefectorial Board,……”

    ….it seems to indicate that the instructions came from the teacher advisor and it could have been issued without the prior knowledge of the Pengetua. If this is true, giving credit where credit is due, the Pengetua should be commended for his quick action to nullify such silly instructions given by equally silly people

    Hi there..since he is the headmaster of the school, he takes “FULL RESPONSIBLE” for any instructions given out..it is because the teacher advisor is all under the Headmaster…any mistakes or fault by the teacher advisor or teacher..the headmaster need to be responsible..you get what i mean?

  16. Godfather made a point that most of his Malay friends are surprised at the ‘opposition’ of the songkok. The surprise is that Godfather is still surprise that the his Malay friend are surprise.

    The white men also were surprised when people started obejcting to buying Africans and bring them to the ‘civilised’ world where they did not starve. It took a civil war in America to settle a legal issue and decades of civil rights moments to make an entire society understand.

  17. adakah kamu pernah terfikir apa akan terjadi jika seorang pelajar CINA yang disangkakan seorang pelajar Melayu memakai songkok dan melanggar tata-tertib agama Islam – disapointed86

    In Jln. Tuanku Abdul Rahman I and a turban wearing Sikh Bank Officer were having lunch at the famous nasi kandar one fasting month. Then we noticed a turban wearing malay staring at the Sikh whose back was turned. He made a hasty getaway when the Sikh turned around to face him.
    If that could happen, then disapointed86`s question is answered.

  18. Sebol says:
    Akan tetapi apabila menggunakan identiti Melayu, cepat pula nak melenting.

    Jika orang Cina nak jadi Inggeris, tak perlu memaksa orang bukan cina untuk jadi Inggeris

    i believe your statement is too naive..thats why Malay never move forward if everyone thinks like what you think…no doubt not all the aspects of the west we need to adopt..but if its good its not wrong to practise it…You said that u wear chinese constume during Chinese New Year..Yes, as long as you’re willing…the problem happen few days ago is “THE PREFECTs in Maktab Sultan Abu Bakar (formerly English College) Johor Bahru are COMPULSARY to wear SOngkok……

  19. Tickler Says:
    In Jln. Tuanku Abdul Rahman I and a turban wearing Sikh Bank Officer were having lunch at the famous nasi kandar one fasting month. Then we noticed a turban wearing malay staring at the Sikh whose back was turned. He made a hasty getaway when the Sikh turned around to face him.
    If that could happen, then disapointed86`s question is answered

    sorry to interupt, can u clariy what u mean?..as for my statement above…i mean is that what happen if a chinese guy wearing Songkok eating pork or “berkhalwat” in public..its not against the chinese tata-tertib..and i believe the muslim in Malaysia are forbidden to touch dogs rite…?

  20. Cinapek argued the issue very well with Sebol.

    Lets look at this scenario.
    Asume every Chinese and Indian males start wearing the songkok on all occasions – in the pub, in karaoke lounges, in the pork market or Chinese restaurant or appear on TV with a bear can in his hand.
    Now what will the Malays say? There will be a huge hue and cry that the Chinese and Indians are abusing the songkok and insulting Malay culture.
    Then will come a law to prohibit non-Malays from wearing the songkok.
    Got the drift, Sebol??????????? that is if you understand English.

  21. Libra2 Says:
    Asume every Chinese and Indian males start wearing the songkok on all occasions – in the pub, in karaoke lounges, in the pork market or Chinese restaurant or appear on TV with a bear can in his hand.

    Laugh Out Loud…Hishamudin takes out his Keris, kiss it and point to you at a very evil look…

  22. Godfather said:My Malay friends are generally surprised by the “opposition” to the wearing of the songkok at official functions for they constantly see non-Muslims wearing them at swearing-ins, royal functions, etc. They can’t understand what the fuss is all about, although most of them are in agreement that if you don’t like to wear it, then don’t.

    Come on, it is stated clearly that school uniform does not include wearing a songkok. Why this addition of head gear ? And on top of that some one had said it is the motive behind theaction. And for those non Malays wearing songkok at swearing-ins or royal function, I believe they were already informed of the attire . Similarly our athletes or sportsmen had to wear songkok during opening ceremony of sporting events. They already knew what they are in for.
    BUT FOR SCHOOL UNIFORM, IT IS DEFINITELY NO!!!

  23. Sekiranya pemakaian tali leher and kot dianggap sebagai lambang penindasan atau warisan penjajah, tidakkah pemakaian songkok mungkin dianggap sebagai lambang penindasan suatu kaum ke atas kaum yang lain, apa lagi apabila pemakaiannya dipaksa atau diwajibkan, bukan cuma digalakkan?

    Tidakkah saudara Sebol terperasan bahwa banyak dari tindakan-tindakan yang dianggap sebagai menindas budaya dan kepercayaan serta pegangan-pegangan kaum minoriti negara kita yang semakin menjadi-jadi baru-baru ini, sebenarnya diusulkan oleh “Little Napoleon” (atau mungkin lebih tepat lagi, “maharajalela”) dan bukan usul dari Raja-Raja sendiri?
    Apakah golongan “little Napoleon” ini telah menganggap diri mereka sebagai golongan yang lebih berkuasa dari Raja-Raja, hinggakan memperkenalkan usul-usul yang menindas kaum-kaum minoriti, masakan Raja-Raja sendiri tidak bermaksud demikian?

    Sepertimana yang telah ditulis oleh JB EC Parent, mungkin juga ada kebaikannya sekiranya pemakaian songkok tidak dipaksa ke atas kaum bukan Melayu, supaya tradisi songkok dijadikan perkara remeh-temeh.
    Kaum bukan-Melayu mungkin tidak dapat menjaga keutuhan atau kehormatan yang patut diberi kepada tradisi songkok, sepertimana yang dilakukan oleh kaum Melayu.
    Kaum bukan-Melayu mungkin bertanya, “Apakah salahnya meminum arak semasa memakai songkok?”
    “Apakah salahnya berjudi atau memakan babi atau bercumbu-cumbuan semasa memakai songkok?”
    “Apakah salahnya menyembah di dalam kuil-kuil semasa bersongkok?”

    Sebenarnya, negara kita yang bermasyarakat majmuk, yang terdiri dari berbagai kaum, patut bangga dengan keharmonian berbilang kaum, and patut menjauhi dari usul-usul atau tindakan-tindakan yang bersifat atau berbau penindasan.

    Sekiranya tidak dipaksa orang bukan Melayu memakai songkok, tetapi cuma digalakkan, kemungkinan orang bukan Melayu akan menghormati tradisi songkok.

  24. If some non-muslims are wearing songkoks dont mean they can force the practice on others.

    BUt lately there are lots of such issues and then they come out like heroes to the non-muslims when they acted lenient. IN the end, the ppl are so thankful.

    But hey, what is there to be thankful for when the mess was created by them?

    Always needed some numbskulls to come up with silly ideas then some Ministers will come out and chide the numbskulls abit and the rakyat will vote them back.

    Pc of crap!

  26. to answer sebol…

    Jika tujuan sebenar pemakaian songkok it semata-mata bagi melambangkan identiti raja atau bangsa (malaysia), saya rasa tidak akan wujud rasa bimbang atau sangsi dari kaum bukan melayu.

    Akan tetapi, berdasarkan insiden2 yang makin lama makin banyak dan melampau, di mana usaha untuk menegakkan prinsip2 ‘Islam’ (sila ambil perhatian pada tanda sebelum dan selepas perkataan), apa yang saya gelar ‘subtle Islamization’, maka, tidak hairan terdapat ramai yang melenting dan menentang perbuatan tersebut.

    Jika tujuan itu ikhlas, tidak akan ada yang sangsi…tapi hakikatnya semua ini ada ‘udang di sebalik batu’.

  27. As long as the majority race respects and recognises the rights of the minority races,then there will not be problem like the compulsory wearing of songkok at JEC.If we really desire to have a peaceful and harmonious society,the majority race should discard their ‘ketuanan’ and ‘arrogance’ mindset.They should not use their racial and religious influence to intimidate the minorities.

  28. >Asume every Chinese and Indian males start wearing the songkok on all
    >occasions – in the pub, in karaoke lounges, in the pork market or Chinese
    >restaurant or appear on TV with a bear can in his hand.
    >Now what will the Malays say? There will be a huge hue and cry that the Chinese
    >and Indians are abusing the songkok and insulting Malay culture.
    >Then will come a law to prohibit non-Malays from wearing the songkok.
    >Got the drift, Sebol??????????? that is if you understand English.”

    It’s just the same like looking people wearing tie to pub and disco.
    maybe it just become like ronggeng or joget lambak.

  29. sorry to interupt, can u clariy what u mean?…as for my statement above…i mean is that what happen if a chinese guy wearing Songkok eating pork or “berkhalwat” in public..its not against the chinese tata-tertib..and i believe the muslim in Malaysia are forbidden to touch dogs rite…? – disappointed 86

    Yes you are right. You illustrate exactly what happened to my true story. The turban wearing malay, immediately saw the turban wearing sikh as a muslim eating during the puasa month as an insult to islam without thinking further than that.
    Very similar to what you say, in fact in full support of that. I have another friend of mixed Indian/Chinese parentage looks malay, and during fasting month has had to pruce his ic a few times for the religous militia.

  31. >sorry to interupt, can u clariy what u mean?…as for my statement above…
    >i mean is that what happen if a chinese guy wearing Songkok eating pork
    >or “berkhalwat” in public..its not against the chinese tata-tertib..and i
    >believe the muslim in Malaysia are forbidden to touch dogs rite…?

    It’s not hard to say, “Maaf encik, saya bukan Islam”.
    something similar happened to Baba community who speak like Malay, look like Malay but not muslim.

  33. It’s not hard to say, “Maaf encik, saya bukan Islam”. sebol

    It is easier to produce the ic to prove that one is not one. But it`ll be easier to stop non malays wearing one (just as proscribing the word `Al lah) so muslims don`t get insulted.

  36. I dunno what you mean by generalize. Maybe I`ve eaten more salt than you. Comprende? Or are you asking for PAS examples. Oso got. And I think it`s underhand to say that UMNO members are not muslims except for exceptions like those in the Portuguese settlement.

  38. disapointed86 Says:
    “adakah kamu pernah terfikir apa akan terjadi jika seorang pelajar CINA yang disangkakan seorang pelajar Melayu memakai songkok dan melanggar tata-tertib agama Islam”

    Ini sudah lebih dari salah fahamlah fasal Islam. Kepiah ni juga sinonim dengan agama yahudi dan hindu pun. Jadi pasal apa kita nak jadi marah? Pakai kepiah tidak wajib pun….

    Hello friends… Actually songkok, turban or caps in whatever form has nothing to do with religion. There is no where in the Quran that says Songkok, headgear or cap is an Islamiic dress. But Jews find them in their holy book and they take them very seriously.

    Actually it has more to do with tradition than with religion. Many tradition adopted it like the royalty, not only in the malay achipelago but also in the arab, chinese, indian and european courts. So if a school or any organization for that matter likes to adopt them, whats wrong with it? It is only a dress.

    If any mislim wants to be sensitive about it, I have only one simple question. Did Nabi Mohamed s.a.w. wear a songkok? So anybody who is making it a issue is only making a storm in a cup.

  39. Tolerance cuts both ways, and from the comments of many on this blog, I would suggest that the Muslim community is not the only ones that are guilty of extremism.

    I agree that the wearing of the songkok should not be compulsory, and so do most of my Muslim friends. However, if some non-Muslims don’t find it offensive by wearing it at official functions, who are we to say that wearing it is wrong for non-Muslims ? This is exactly what the Muslims are perplexed about. The non-Muslim parties within BN don’t make a meal out of this issue, but the Chinese Opposition does. The ABSOLUTE minority makes a meal out of this issue. How do you expect the moderate Malays to vote Opposition if they happen to be sitting on the fence ? What kind of tolerance levels do we have that we see a shadow behind every action ?

  40. sebol, kiranya songkok itu lambang kesetiaan kepada raja dan negara, kenapa songkok tidak dipakai oleh kebanyakan orang Melayu pada Hari Keputeraan Agung dan Sultan, dan juga pada Hari Merdeka?
    Sebaliknya, songkok lebih dipakai pada Hari Jumaat, Hari Raya AidilFitri dan AidilAdha.

  41. However, if some non-Muslims don’t find it offensive by wearing it at official functions, who are we to say that wearing it is wrong for non-Muslims ? – Godfather

    I don`t think we are talking about it being right or wrong. What is at stake is to enforce what is a commonly accepted religous identity on others. If someone wears it of his own free will then it is up to that individual.

    I`ve seen chinese and indian females wearing sarong kebaya – no problemo. But I do not like it when non muslims have to wear tudung.

  42. # Tickler Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    Today at 17: 35.56 (2 seconds ago)

    How do you expect the moderate Malays to vote Opposition if they happen to be sitting on the fence ? What kind of tolerance levels do we have that we see a shadow behind every action ? – Godfather

    So the solution is to enforce the songkok on non muslims then? That would be tolerance is it? Raja Petra had a comment to the effect that `tolerance is when I let my neigbours dogs sh_it on my lawn`. That makes sense too.

  43. Nobody is suggesting that there is enforcement on the wearing of the songkok on non-Muslims. You still have a choice. Look at it from the point of the Muslims. For every one of you who believe that the wearing of the songkok at official functions is wrong (or a gradual erosion of your rights) then don’t go for the official functions. Don’t be a prefect. Don’t be a datuk. There are countless others who are willing to do so because they are not offended by it.

  45. Sebol is another numbskulls.

    Maybe abt time the chinese schools enforce a ruliong for all chinese girls to start wearing cheongsam now. And i know ltos of malay students studying in chinese schools now.

    HOW ABT THAT?

  47. Tolerance is when I do allow my neighbour to have a dog all tho I am scared of them….let it shit on my lawn it is not an act of tolerance it is mere submission…
    O.T. (to Uncle Lim attention)
    A few days ago I read on Star a comment from Najb abt the DAP proposal of reverting Petronas profits into subside the fuel cost.
    He said that Malaysia’s oil sources will cease by the year 2010 and the country will turn from exporter to importer.
    Didi I read or understood well? Is that correct? I am still thinking that it was a typo or I misread it…..

  49. sebol Says:
    Today at 16: 33.35 (1 hour ago)
    >sorry to interupt, can u clariy what u mean?…as for my statement above…
    >i mean is that what happen if a chinese guy wearing Songkok eating pork
    >or “berkhalwat” in public..its not against the chinese tata-tertib..and i
    >believe the muslim in Malaysia are forbidden to touch dogs rite…?

    It’s not hard to say, “Maaf encik, saya bukan Islam”.
    something similar happened to Baba community who speak like Malay, look like Malay but not muslim.

    Read the above senario….lols..if TOday u wear songkok bercumbu-cumbuan / eating pork in public..yo man..i believe to the MUSLIM community, a person with songkok is 100% muslim..coem on man stop it..u cant clasify it to be COMPULSARY…wat happen if u make wearing cheongsam to be made compulsary to all ladies in government sector + non-gov sector..i believe the Muslim also doenst like it?

  51. Our constitution guarantees us certain basic rights. The right to abode, the right to vote, the right to practise your religion, etc. Compulsion of wearing the songkok infringes on your basic right to education. So if they say that you either wear a songkok or don’t attend school, then even a majority of the Muslims will tell you that it is wrong.

    It’s similar to the a hard-core group of UMNOputras telling you to leave the country if you don’t like it here. They don’t have the right to tell you to leave because you have every right to stay – and that is guaranteed by the constitution.

  52. Which is why at the haead of this thread:

    However, as far as the “EC prefect wearing songkok issue” is concerned, I am surprised that no one has yet posted that the issue has been resolved amicably as the headmaster himself has announced today during an emergency prefects meeting that it is NOT compulsory for the prefects to wear the songkok for whatever function or duty.

  53. “So if they say that you either wear a songkok or don’t attend school, then even a majority of the Muslims will tell you that it is wrong”. – Godfather. Equally if they say that you either wear a songkok or don’t be a prefect” then that’s wrong (when one by conduct and achievement in school is otherwise eligible to or have been appointed one by the school). I believe that’s the issue, isn’t it?

  54. Jeffrey:

    We have to look at the different degrees of “intolerance”. For every person who doesn’t want to be a prefect because he won’t wear a songkok at ceremonies, there are perhaps 10 others who would. Should we therefore pamper to this absolute minority when we could easily have uniformity and perhaps more of an esprit de corps if we go with the absolute majority ? The principled individual may have earned the prefectship but if he is so intolerant as not to go with the vast majority, then perhaps not having him on the prefect board may be beneficial for harmony and tolerance in society in the longer term.

    Take a poll. Ask non-Muslim parents if they would allow their children to wear songkoks at ceremonies if their schools dictate it. Just don’t blow it up into such a big issue when the vast majority doesn’t see it as so.

    4.

  58. For every one of you who believe that the wearing of the songkok at official functions is wrong (or a gradual erosion of your rights) then don’t go for the official functions. Don’t be a prefect. Don’t be a datuk. There are countless others who are willing to do so because they are not offended by it.- Godfather

    You cannot compare ceremony for datukship and appointment of prefect.
    Hey, Getting a datukship is for the rich and connected. Datukship carries a lot of weight. Juus an example, police will not check or ask for your driving licence if you have a datuk crest on your car. On top of that people crave for it.
    Prefectship comes with more resposibility. To add a songkok to your uniform means more expenditure. some poor parents find it hard to buy.

    “So if they say that you either wear a songkok or don’t attend school, then even a majority of the Muslims will tell you that it is wrong.- Godfather

    ARE YOU SURE??????

  60. Yea, i welcome the return to sanity, not of the principal, but rather the people who read and comment on this blog. I find it sad that some of us are too quick to jump on the race/religion bandwagon for every little issue that is raised. We really need to get out of that mentality. Otherwise, things will never change.

  61. Godfather,your insistence in saying that there is nothing wrong with wearing a songkok or for that matter baju kurung is perfectly sane and would also be the position of any civil minded chap.However I would not agree with anybody if you say that it is prefectly alright if somebody were to make wearing songkok part of school uniform or prefectorial uniform or work attire in a purportedly multiracial and multicultural society in a nation ruled by a government purportedly selling the idea of diversity to the outside world.It makes nonsense of of this concept of treating all ethnic groups fairly.Why don’t you ask whether it is alright to impose cheongsam as prefectorial uniform and see the repercussions vibrating throughout the nation?
    The big distinction in this case is wearing malay attire of one’s own volition and being told to wear it as part of uniform.If it is part of uniform then you have to wear it at all cost or else disiplinary action will be given and if repeated expulsion will followBy implication it simply means that the dominatig group is imposing its will on the minority group if such an action is to be pursued!That is why in Malaysia’s case we are witnessing marginalisation and hegemonismcreeping in slowly and surely.It is up to us to be vigilant and take steps to nip it in the bud when such actions are detected.

  62. Godfather said on Tues 15 Jan 2008 at 17:41.11:
    “For every one of you who believe that the wearing of the songkok at official functions is wrong (or a gradual erosion of your rights) then don’t go for the official functions. Don’t be a prefect. Don’t be a datuk. There are countless others who are willing to do so because they are not offended by it.”

    I disagree.
    This is exactly what the issue is about – it’s about the lack of sensitivity and lack of mutual respect and lack of mutual understanding by the dominant race, which is leading to creeping erosion of the values and culture and practices of the minority races.
    We pride ourselves in declaring to the world that we have a harmonious society comprising of various races and cultures – or has that been done away with?
    If we still hold on to that ideal, why must we force minority races and cultures to adopt the practices values and culture of the majority, albeit in a creeping fashion, by progressive exclusion of the minorities from areas of interaction which were previously free of such influence, unless they are forced to conform?
    The so-called “choice” of “either you do it our new way, or you lose out what you had been doing before” is NOT really a choice – it is but COMPULSION.

    If you accept the creeping enforcement of minor erosions like the songkok, what then of the tudung next? (Not that it has not already happened?)
    Saudari Fong Po Kuan forewent her convocation at IIU, simply because she felt that the tudung was an Islamic practice, and she felt that forcing her to wear the tudung is an affront to her freedom of belief. Do you also agree with the forced wearing of the tudung at convocations?
    Do you still hold onto your “You can always choose not to attend” argument?
    Does one not have a right to attend one’s convocation?
    Or do you define rights only to that which governs abode, votes and religion?
    Even if so, does not the freedom of religion mean freedom in choice of NOT donning emblems of another religion?

    The minorities fear that the institution of such practices may creep in the future, certainly not an impossibility. Today, it may be only convocation, later it may be extended to other official fucntions, and later to lesser functions, and even later still to daily wear. Impossible? Hardly.

  63. I’m sorry I may have made a mistake – Saudari Fong Po Kuan was _compelled to wear the tudung_ for her convocation. She did attend her convocation.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fong_Po_Kuan

    I had mistaken another poster in one of these “compulsory songkok” threads, ie “malaysiatoday.com” who had boycotted his convocation at UTM because he was forced to wear the songkok:
    http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2008/01/11/songkok-compulsory-wear-for-jb-english-college-prefects/#comment-68865

  64. Why would one “tend” to link islam to malay tradition?
    The reason being that all Malay are automatically born as Islam religion, basically no choice.

    But even if taking out religion part, imposing own tradition on others also not a right thing to do. “Encourage” would be a better choice.

    As for wearing school uniform, something neutral with school badge will do. This itself can be accepted across all race and religion.

    Wearing tie, i personally don’t think it is necessary except official functions. If not worn properly it restricts blood circulation.
    But since wearing tie is ALREADY a generally accepted attire amongst the race and not SEEN as associated to religion, i guess thats the reason no one really would oppose it.

    (Assuming and IF) wearing tie is a must during, say, non-islam prayer ceremony for many years in Malaysia, then a reasonable person would understand if a muslim oppose to wearing tie for not willing to be SEEN AS associated with other religion.

  65. The ‘songkok’ is a failure of leadership. We should expect more. Much like the common cold, withdrawing the instruction only treats the symptom – but not the illness. And much like the common cold things got to get worse before they get better.

    It is the job of the DAP to ensure that we are not just treating the symptom.

  67. Godfather,
    If there is a directive that non-Muslim policewomen must wear the tudung during official parades and ceremonies, what would you advise the policewomen? Refuse to attend the official ceremonies?
    But what if it is compulsory to attend the ceremonies?
    Go for MC? Resign?
    Refuse to sign up as policewomen in the first place?
    I’m assuming that the “policewomen tudung” directive is still in place – I wonder – can anyone give the figures of how many non-muslim women have signed up as policewomen ever since that directive came into effect in March 2006?

  68. What I am trying to provoke in this thread is simply that what some of us see as intolerance towards non-Malays may be interpreted as intolerance or disrespect towards the Malays by the “other” side. Have we ever thought that the Malays see it as an honour to ask us – as non-Muslims – to wear the songkok ? Like some of you said in your comments, what if you abuse this honour by doing certain things with the songkok on that are anathema to the Muslim faith ? Have we seen it as an unifying factor rather than as a dis-unifying (if there is such a word) factor ?

    There are far bigger issues than this, and I just think that we are making a mountain out of a molehill by prolonging this debate.

  69. “The lesson here is clear – Malaysians must stand up for their fundamental and constitutional rights as citizens of a plural nation as nobody will stand up for them unless they are prepared to come forward to speak and cry out against excesses and abuses of power. If they do so, they can be assured of the support of right-thinking middle-ground moderate Malaysians – and this blog is dedicated to defend our fundamental constitutional citizenship rights.” KIT

    You sound like Barack Obama here! And like Barack Obama, it makes my hair stand on ends just reading it!

  70. Tickler: You, your children or your relatives have every right never to wear the songkok. Others will have the right to. – Godfather

    But that I already told you:
    Your kids can wear the songkok.
    Never ever mine or my relatives`.
    [I left out `most of my friends`]

  71. There are far bigger issues than this, and I just think that we are making a mountain out of a molehill by prolonging this debate. – Godfather

    So that`s your tolerance. Everyone should agree with you on this `unifying factor` to avoid mountains out of molehills. What next – mass circumcisions. You could equally make a case for that. How about breaking all those statues in Hindu Temples. That too would be unifying. No wonder temple statue demolitions are such a unifying factor.
    Minorities should shut up and then all be unified. Osama Laden says the same.

  73. ALLAH will surely faint when he sees the Chinese men
    wearing songkok eating pork at stalls, touching and
    playing with dogs, yeam sing at bars with beers and
    hard drinks… He certainly will ban all Chinese to wear
    songkok!!

    Baju Melayu and songkok come hand in hand. Songkok
    is termed religious headgear for Malays to wear during
    prayers… Why allow all Non Malays
    to wear them, trying to brain-wash them to convert to
    Muslims and turn this country into Secular State??

    It is Day Dreaming and Bodoh act!

  76. Godfather, the provocation came from the attempt to enforce one emblem of a dominant culture, unto another, a minority.
    You are trying to defend that provocation. I wonder though, if even you sometimes feel that such provocation is hard to defend.

    If it is really an “honour” as you suggest, then there would be no need to make it COMPULSORY, is there?
    Since when have honours been forced unto others?
    Honours are offered, NOT forced upon others.

    What say you of the black Australian aboriginal children who were similarly “offered” to stay with white parents?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_generations

    Should the aboriginal children feel “honoured?”

  77. Ultimately, the final arbiter of our rights are the courts of law. If anyone feels hard done by, he/she can seek a declaration from the courts that it violates his/her rights under the constitution. The reality is that with the Muslims as the majority in a one-person-one-vote system, and with vastly differential birth rates and immigration rates between Muslims and non-Muslims, it is inevitable that the minorities will feel that their rights are being impinged. Could the minorities get protection from the courts ? Based on recent experiences on the corruption of the judiciary, I think not. The only solution is regime change, so that the rot in the very bastions of protection – judicial, prosecutorial, investigative – are reversed. And the only way for regime change is to work as one, and not to polarize society any further than it currently is.

  78. Dear All,
    Why on earth in the first place the principal instructed to wear the songkok?

    I disagree with God father. We need to see this as a form of indoctrination by the Malays. Sebol’s notion that says that songkok should be taken as wearing a tie is also not acceptable. Can the ulamak’s and other’s knowledgeable in the Muslim religion step forward and offer some explanation and don’t keep quiet when some issues like this comes out?

    Let’s not be happy that the principal says now that it is not compulsory to wear the songkok now. I don’t know which association can appeal this to the government to ensure that such incident never happen in Malaysia again. If we don’t do this, these ‘religiously fanatic’ will attempt to ‘test the waters’ again.

    May God bless Malaysia.

  79. “Kit is the one who stands to lose the most out of prolonging this debate.” Godfather

    I do not think YB Kit is prolonging anything. There has been criticism earlier by a poster here that there is no report on this blog that the instruction to force the songkok on to those who do not want to wear them has been retracted.

    Kit has to highlight and confirm that retraction by the school headmaster. Otherwise his critics would make fodder of him!

    We should not oppose for the sake of opposing. We are quick to criticize and expose any wrongdoing. We demand change. Don’t you think we should be equally quick to congratulate those who make that change happen?

  80. Godfather,
    I think you are trying to push your argument thro.Who says this creeping marginalisation or hegemonism is a trivial matter,a small issue in your words.I beg to differ for this tramples into my right not only as citizen but also my right to choose.If you try to propound that I think most of us here would also have an issue on what you are trying to push thro.It is an issue that goes beyond financial(if you think that only financial or corruption issues can be classified as big). This issue strike right at the heart of one’s freedom.
    Simple this is not an issue if one were to wear it on one’s own volition.It becomes an issue when one is made to wear as a uniform.Analogy to this…. if one were to circumcise on one’s own volition out of the belief that it is hygienic then one does not see any problem but if I am forced to circumcise then an issue will emerge!!Of course if the UMNOPUTRAS can get away this seemingly ‘small issue’, they will keep looking for other seemingly ‘small issues’ until one day they will become confident enough to suggest unthinkable that since Malaysia is a muslim country why not all citizens become Muslims!!

  82. AhPek:

    What is your final recourse if “they” don’t back down on the songkok issue ? You go to the courts to seek a declaration that it violates your rights under the constitution. You think you have a chance of winning ? Do you see the MCA, MIC or Gerakan supporting such a motion ?

    We should not equate this with forced circumcision or forced conversion – even the MCA, MIC and Gerakan will not stand idly by under such circumstances. I will lead the street protests.

  83. I was studying Form 6 at MSAB aka EC 20 years ago. There isn’t any choice as there is hardly any schools that has Form 6 classes at that time. In my previous school I was the head prefect but I decided not to join the MSAB prefectorial board due to the songkok thing. However, I need to emphasize here that in those days songkok was already part of the prefect’s uniform but later I found out that it was NOT COMPULSORY. At that time, not many of the prefects wear the songkok all the time, including the Malays. Most of them only wear them during functions.

  84. To the principal of the JB English college, I said good move because he will gain the respect of more people. This is what we mean by earning respect.

    Once I listened to a programme in the BBC and it talks about the wearing of uniforms and the psychological effects behind it. One of it being you must all be the same. A form of suppression. On another hand, a uniform comes with it dignity and the meaning behind. But if one does not feel dignified anymore, then the uniform has no more meaning. That is why places like in U.S., the pupils and the students do not wear uniforms.

    Back to the Little Napoleon thingy. Who allow the existence of Little Napoleons if not the government itself ? If the government does not take charge of things, it can be sure the people will handle things themselves and that is when they become Little Napoleons. Like this school in JB, the principal does things his ways without consulting anyone and nobody questions him. When nobody questions him and allows him to do as he pleases, that is how he becomes one of the many Little Napoleons. Shouldn’t the authorities stop him instead of leaving the decision to his discretion, thinking that he must be one very clever guy ?

    A school is supposed to be one of the safest places on Earth and the environment should be healthy and allow the students to grow. It should be a place which the students think it is the best place to be in. If the student is threatened, it means that the school is not a school and whoever is in charge should correct the situation immediately.

    Coming to the issue of dress code, I think that if a person is clothed suitably for a particular event, it should be acceptable. Western clothes belong to the westerners. Malay clothes belong to the Malay. What I mean is that we can wear what they wear but it should not be made compulsory. Once, some non Muslim was wearing a tudung and a baju Melayu. I thought she is converted to Islam. When I asked, she laughed away. Much later, when she got married, I discover that she was wearing the Islam outfit for the reason of cultural exchange. Would wearing a baju Melayu ensures a non Malay, non Muslim gets a job promotion ? Would wearing a baju Melayu proves that you are clever than the rest ? Or why should we place so much importance on appearance ? Isn’t intelligence and wisdom more important ? What is so deficient about looking just neat, clean and tidy, minus the make up ? Will Malayization become successful ? The Baba Nyonya sacrificed a lot except the religion. The same goes for the Chitty. Do we have to follow their footsteps ?

  85. Malaysia is to consider using mass circumcision ceremonies to promote racial harmony.
    [ ]
    Dr Abdul Hamid Othman said that with the growing popularity of circumcision among the country’s non-Muslim minorities – who see it as good hygienic practice – they too could be invited to join in the celebrations with their Muslim friends.

    He believes the idea could promote better race relations and he wants to see a nationwide circumcision ceremony organised.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3326861.stm

    Proposed 3 years ago. Only needs to be revived. Hopefully after the next GE.

  89. I wonder why this feller would want to (being part of godfather`s majority):

    “I agreed to go for a DNA test and the results confirmed that they were indeed my biological parents.

    “The girl who was always looking at me was actually my elder sister who suspected that I was her brother because of my striking resemblance to our father.”

    Yesterday, the family highlighted their plight to the media because they wanted to change Zulhaidi’s name to a Chinese name, as well as his religion on his identification card to Buddhism instead of Islam.
    http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2007/02/03/the-star-woman%e2%80%99s-stares-led-to-reunion-with-biological-parents/

  90. The analogy with ‘forced’ anything is the same principally for all these amount to curbing your freedom to choose to impose their will on yours.If these seemingly ‘small efforts’ to trample your rights are easily successful, much ‘bigger things’ will come.Nobody suggests that these things can be resolved by the courts especially the courts of Malaysia which are beholden to the Executive.But that doesn’t mean you stand there taking everything dish out by these UMNOPUTRAS and incapable of giving a wimper.
    You think KIT is letting this go pass as if nothing has happened and who says DAP will stand to lose for standing behind this lady from JB who posted this case.And who says by not accepting this decision has anything to do with us being racists??I fail to see all this, i am sorry.
    The thing I see is ‘it is an attempt to impose what they think is good for you’ and i don’t take kindly to this.Period.

  95. I had my form 6 in EC 32 years ago, but I was not aware of the prefects having to wear “songkok” during that time. Anyway, it is simple logic, that no one are to be forced to wear something that is religious related. In this case, songkok is undoubtedly related to Islam, as they are worn during religious activities.
    It seems to me that this is another case of administrative biaseness.

  96. Sigh, I think this is getting a bit out of hand. Maybe everyone should just take a deep breath and think through things a bit more and talk a bit less. This is slowly bordering on a religious argument.

    Everyone is in agreement that this was a bad case as it is the compulsory nature that is the issue. So, let’s just agree on that. There are other more important issues to deal with than this one.

  98. Perchance, some fresh air after the deep breath:

    US financial giant, Morgan Stanley had estimated in 2004 that over the last two decades corruption cost Malaysia US$100 billion (RM 380 billion). With Petronas earning more than RM 500 billion since it was established in 1974, one can imagine how much was stolen and that only RM 120 billon or 24% of the RM 500 billion in Petronas profits were channeled to the people with the remaining 76% or RM 380 billion stolen by corrupt officials.
    http://nooryahaya.blogspot.com/2008/01/thats-my-letter-in-malaysiakini.html

  99. Well godfather nobody in this country has any idea how to reverse this thro the electoral process or even thro the courts.You and I may cast a vote for opposition as well as all the commenters on Kit’s blog and RPK’s blog and even if you can persuade all your friends to vote opposition, my take is opoosition is not likely to take more than 55 parlimentary seats.And even if they can manage to win 74 seats, BN can still rule as they like only thing is they are not able to amend the constitution. But after all as Jeffrey says they have already amended all what they wanted amending. So the big deal about two thirds majority has not got that much importance as was before.Godfather, you want to change things- how you tell me besides doing what the French did, what Mao Tse Tung did and what the negroes did in USA (black american population in US –slightly more than 12%). So please if you don’t have any solution in reversing this trend of marginalisation don’t pose this question.I don’t but that doesn’t mean I have no opinion on this songkok issue in JB’s English College.
    I would like to remind everybody that giving one’s 2 cents worth of opinion is always one’s prerogative which nobody can take away.

  100. It does not matter if it is 2-cents worth (which is an expression to say for what is worth or your humble opinion) or a $64k question. Freedom of speech is what it is all about. It is your constitutional right to say what you think. You’re right. Nobody can take that away from you. I don’t think we need reminding though.

  102. Kepada sepol,

    1. Orang cina tidak pernah paksa kaum bukan cina pakai pakaian inggeris.

    2. Orang cina macam aku samada mahu pakai ara inggeris, melayu, india, dll adalah hak kebebasan aku. Tapi dipaksa memakai mana-mana pakaian akan ditentang sekeras-kerasnya.

    3. Kebanyakan ibubapa murid-murid cina tidak setuju pengajaran matematik dan sains dalam bahasa inggeris. Si bodoh UMNO yang memaksa polisi ke atas orang cina.

    4. Songkok bukan pakaian rasmi raja-raja. Sila tengok wang kertas kamu, agong pertama kita berpakaian songkok atau tidak?

  103. Godfather, i totally disagree with you..maybe you would be happy to see all your children wearing SONGKOK and someday tudung in future..Moreover we, as a multi racial country, the majority should not force the minority into something which is related to religion in a country.. P/S : Dont complare with other middle-east countries, we should see base on how the Malaysian think..

    Speaking about tolerance between races..Godfather, forcing others to do something is tolerance to you? DOnt talk about “i choose not to attend” or what ok…i believe some of the bloggers explain it well..

    Could the minorities get protection from the courts ? – GodFather

    i believe it will takes you forever?Your expectation for the country is so high as if everything makes so easy for you..To be honest with you…if you’re a prominent person in the country..even if you killed someone..you still may not face death… lets say..the case of ALTANTUYA…it will never end… you ever imagine what if the accuse(Razak Baginda) in this case is a normal person..? Even the Mongolia GOvt. start to question the efficiency of our Gov..

    There are countless others who are willing to do so because they are not offended by it.- Godfather

    This is just what you think..even in this blog most of us are against that “SONGKOK TO BE MADE COMPULSARY”..nevertheless if you dont want to stand up for yourself, please think about the better future for your children…

  105. >Sebol is another numbskulls.

    >Maybe abt time the chinese schools enforce a ruliong for all chinese girls to
    >start wearing cheongsam now. And i know ltos of malay students studying
    >in chinese schools now.

    >HOW ABT THAT?

    Di dalam komen saya yang pertama di atas sekali, saya tidakpun menyokong pemaksaan pemakaian songkok, cuba saya persoalkan, kenapa apabila pelajar dipaksa memakai tali leher, tidak dipersoalkan, akan tetapi apabila songkok, ia dipersoalkan. Mengapa?

    Pakaian barat vs Pakaian timur.
    Tali leher vs Songkok

    Jika Sekolah Cina ingin mengunakan pakaian tradisional, sila mulakan secara berperingkat-peringkat.

    Pelajar perempuan Islam Di Malaysia sebelum 1980an semuanya DIPAKSA memakat skirt. Namun lama kelamaan, baju kurung dan tudung dibolehkan,
    begitu juga seluar pelajar sekolah lelaki, dahulunya seluar pendek kemudia dibolehkan untuk memakai seluar panjang.

    Jadi bagi sekolah Cina, pihak sekolah (atau ahli politik) boleh minta supaya pakaian tradisional cina dibolehkan dipakai di sekolah.

    sebelum itu, lakukan inisiatif sendiri dahulu, sekolah tadika cina buat uniform pakaian tradisional cina. Kena tunjukkan bahawa orang cina betul-betul mahu pertahankan pakaian tradisional.

    Akan tetapi, jika pada tahun baru cina sekalipun pakaian tradisional tidak mahu dipakai oleh orang cina sendiri, sekurang-kurangnya sepanjang hari pada 1 hari, maka lupakan dahulu hasrat nak guna pakaian tradisional di sekolah.

    Bagi pelajar melayu di sekolah cina, pemakaian pakaian tradisional cina disekolah tidak menjadi masalah.
    Akan tetapi, kena wujudkan alternatif kepada pelajar perempuan muslim supaya ada versi pakaian tradisional cina yang membolehkan pelajar menutup aurat.

    sekian.

  106. sebol Says:
    Bagi pelajar melayu di sekolah cina, pemakaian pakaian tradisional cina disekolah tidak menjadi masalah.

    = Tentulah tidak menjadi masalah jika kamu sudi..Jika pelajar melayu belajar di sekolah cina, itu adalah hak mereka untuk belajar di mana sahaja yang mereka suka..

    Masalahnya di sini tempoh hari, Pelajar di Koleh Jb English tersebut “DIWAJIBKAN” memakai songkok?

  107. malaysiatoday.com Says:

    3. Kebanyakan ibubapa murid-murid cina tidak setuju pengajaran matematik dan sains dalam bahasa inggeris. Si bodoh UMNO yang memaksa polisi ke atas orang cina.

    4. Songkok bukan pakaian rasmi raja-raja. Sila tengok wang kertas kamu, agong pertama kita berpakaian songkok atau tidak?

    ————-

    I actually support Science and Math to be teach in English. Don’t forget in our working life, the main medium we use is English and the Western is still standing high in Science and Math. If you don’t master the English language, you will have a hard time understanding their knowledge. Even China’s scientist need to master English before they can read, translate and teach Western knowledge in their own mother language.

    Try comparing those elders who uses English language as their medium in their school (60s and 70s era) and those who uses Bahasa Malaysia language (90s and onwards), you will get some enlightenment on why our unemployment is so high now.

    Don’t blame the Malay for the songkok case. They have been ‘brain wash’ for so long until they don’t even know where their ancestors came from let alone their very own culture. Songkok is Malay culture??? I wonder if the Malay wear them before Islam come to Tanah Melayu.

  109. # Count Dracula Says:
    Today at 04: 32.07 (1 hour ago)

    Enough said about the ’songkok’. It is time to ‘un-songkok’ the issue and move on.

    ———–

    This is an issue that will never end. Election is nearby so that HM will keep his head low as his fear his master, UMNO will kick his @ss because they might lose some vote due to this issue. Once election is over, you will see his true face!

  110. I actually support Science and Math to be teach in English. Don’t forget in our working life, the main medium we use is English and the Western is still standing high in Science and Math. If you don’t master the English language, you will have a hard time understanding their knowledge. Even China’s scientist need to master English before they can read, translate and teach Western knowledge in their own mother language.

    Try comparing those elders who uses English language as their medium in their school (60s and 70s era) and those who uses Bahasa Malaysia language (90s and onwards), you will get some enlightenment on why our unemployment is so high now.

    ==========

    Don’t assume those parents against teaching maths and science in english are ignorant about how important english today’s world.

    Japaneses and koreans are very poor in english, but they are not poor in technology and science. To say english is a key to modernization is kinda simplistic conclusion.

    I did send a letter to The Star and Malaysiakini and got published by them on this subject.

    You may want to visit this link for various pros and cons from many

    http://forum.malaysiatoday.com/index.php?s=62dcc3de9349c936835a6872fb21c650&showtopic=483

  111. Don’t assume those parents against teaching maths and science in english are ignorant about how important english in today’s world.

    Japaneses and koreans are very poor in english, but they are not poor in technology and science. To say english is a key to modernization is kinda simplistic conclusion.

    I did send a letter to The Star and Malaysiakini and got published by them on this subject.

    You may want to visit this link for various pros and cons from many concerned parents, students, educationists, etc.

    http://forum.malaysiatoday.com/index.php?s=62dcc3de9349c936835a6872fb21c650&showtopic=483

  112. //At the rate you guys are going, no chance. All the DAP will get will be 15 – 20 seats, and probably retaining its position as head of the Opposition….Kit is the one who stands to lose the most out of prolonging this debate.” …. – Godfather.

    There is no point for the DAP, if it has any honour and claim to uphold constitutional rights, to try winning more seats, get a better showing in coming election, on the back of appeasement of an unrighteous policy (even if it is a ‘small’ policy thing like prefect songkok attire in EC); on the back of a rationalization of what is blatantly wrong as something that possibly could either be right or of no big issue, or that intolerance of those who by subtle pressure, require us to adopt their cultural emblem becomes ‘viola’ a reverse intolerance on our part in not having an open mind … all just to maintain, on the eve of election, a not so strong an appearance of abhorrence against racially or religiously biased hegemonic policies and expressions by little Napoleons just to get the other side’s votes traditionally not given to us because we openly resisted racially or religiously biased hegemonic policies and expressions.

    So don’t give lah – if it implies that we have to drive a Faust Bargain like MCA MIC and the rest.

    Just for the sake of their votes and a chance at dislodging the den of thieves, do we pay the price here and now, to twist what is wrong and plainly untenable to become not so bad or small thing? It is this tolerating marginal transgression of rights that in aggregate will end up a significant loss of rightful position until one knows what is one’s own heritage.

    The issue of prefect-songkok may have ended by EC principal’s rescission of that directive – but the issue of attitude and mindset of pathetically bargaining for votes and a little crumbs for power, and turning a blind eye to other’s encroachment of these rights is current and relevant as it is insidious in getting across to some of us in the name of pragmatism, not something that is just a dominant trait amongst those who campaign for the BN component parties.

  114. Godfather, if one reads your posting “If anyone feels hard done by, he/she can seek a declaration from the courts” one may be misled to think that you are suggesting that JB EC Parent should have sought remedy through the courts of law!

    The main problem here is that of “little napoleons” implementing new rules which are in reality minor transgressions to minority cultures, rules which are NOT even supported by official policy of the government of the day.
    Each little incremental transgression – implemented perhaps because of cultural values and mores (of the moment?) by the dominant group – if NOT confronted or outrage expressed, will become more and more “accepted” as the norm by the dominant group.
    These “little napoleons” may or may not even have realised that their actions or new rules have encroached upon the values and cultures of the minority group, to the extent that the minority feel strongly enough to express outrage, had the issues not been given publicity.
    (The “segregated co-ed” schools is another example.)
    ]
    If such protest or outrage is not given a voice or publicity, the issue may simply be swept under the carpet.
    It is exactly because of the publicity generated through this forum, as well as the outrage expressed, that the HM was jolted into the realisation that the issue is not simply accepted.
    I think we should also thank YB Lim for giving his voice to the issue, without which the issue may not have been given the prominence it deserves, which finally resulted in the resolution of the issue.

    To suggest that JB EC Parent should have sought redress through the court, is naive.

    To suggest that JB EC Parent simply accept the matter, is insensitive, and does not address the principle of mutual respect and mutual understanding, which our multiracial and multicultural society should uphold.

  115. You guys should read through all my postings again lest you start jumping into conclusions about my position on this matter.

    Firstly, my belief is that equating the action of one little Napolean (only the advisor to the prefectorial board) to a decree or edict that non-Muslims should do this or that (including circumcision or forced conversion) is nothing short of paranoia. Some of you say that the road to marginalisation starts with little steps and I accept that. What I think are ridiculous are the comments of “what if we wear the songkok and do all the things that are anti-Islam” or “make the cheongsam the uniform for the Chinese schools”.

    Second, when I say that the prefect in question has a choice, I mean that he has a choice not to be prefect, and give his position to another who doesn’t have the same constraint. Someone suggested at the top of this thread that he should watch his back from now on, for he is a “marked” man, but I think that is also paranoia. If he is victimised going forward, he can complain to the authorities, ask for a transfer to another school, or go to a private school. I wasn’t talking about the really drastic step of leaving the country – even though that this is an option to some, it is not generally an option to many.

    Lastly, I never suggested that the JB EC parent should seek redress through the courts. In fact I suggested that with the corruption of the judiciary, getting a fair judgement is probably next to impossible. I also said that the courts are the final arbiters of our rights, and that regime change is the only way we can reverse the rot of the judiciary so that our rights can be upheld without fear or favour.

    You want regime change – you abandon your narrow, chauvinistic views, and work with the growing middle class Malays who are also mindful that corruption in the judiciary, the AG’s Chambers, the Police, and the ACA will drag the country into oblivion. Don’t make sweeping statements like “over my dead body will I wear a songkok” or “they will seek forced circumcision or forced conversion next”.

  117. Godfather,
    You ask that we read through your posts.
    After reading through your posts, I noticed that you have AVOIDED to reply to a SPECIFIC question of mine, ie
    “If there is a directive that non-Muslim policewomen must wear the tudung during official parades and ceremonies, what would you advise the policewomen? Refuse to attend the official ceremonies?
    But what if it is compulsory to attend the ceremonies?
    Go for MC? Resign?
    Refuse to sign up as policewomen in the first place?”

    This was in followup to your advice:
    Godfather said on Tues 15 Jan 2008 at 17:41.11:
    “For every one of you who believe that the wearing of the songkok at official functions is wrong (or a gradual erosion of your rights) then don’t go for the official functions. Don’t be a prefect. Don’t be a datuk. There are countless others who are willing to do so because they are not offended by it.”

  118. Dranony:

    When a person signs up for the police force, I’m almost certain that there will be tons of paperwork to fill, amongst which will be the declaration that the candidate must follow all procedures and practices in force from time to time. As you point out, the wearing of the headscarf was made compulsory for official ceremonies in 2006. If you joined post 2006, it must be assumed that the candidate is happy to wear the headscarf at official ceremonies (or else why waste everybody’s time?). If you joined prior to 2006, and this edict offends your principle, you can ask for a transfer within the civil service, you can quit and join the private sector, or you can leave the country and join the Singapore police force.

    These options are all open to you. If you feel really really strongly that the 2006 edict violates your constitutional rights, then get Karpal Singh to help you file a motion in the courts.

    I’m sure many non-Malays are put off by this edict, but I am also willing to bet my bottom dollar that there are non-Malays out there who have joined the police force since 2006. I won’t discourage that because each person is entitled to his own opinion.

  119. Can someone tell us the figures of how many non-Muslim have joined the police force since 2006, as compared to before?

    Godfather, I will progressively ask of your response to situations where such compulsions are being implemented in a creeping fashion to erode rights and values and culture of the minorities, to see if your advice of simple “appeasement” (accept it or run away) will continue to stand in the face of continued encroachments.
    Please do not run away from answering them.

    Did you say that schools will not allow compulsive wearing of the tudung since education is a right?

    Godfather, what now of Universities which do the same ie insist on wearing of the tudung? At first for ceremonies, then later in more and more areas.
    Do you agree that there is the possibility that once this is “accepted” as “the norm” in varsities, that this will soon creep into secondary schools, as part of some “new rule” implemented by some “little osama?”

    If “baca doa” can be implemented in a school with only 10% muslim students, can the tudung be compelled in a school with 90% muslim students?
    Will you also then ask the students who refuse to wear the tudung to go and seek another school which does not impose such a rule?

    Now, coming back to my argument of of mutual understanding and mutual respect and respectful reciprocity, how do you think muslims would feel if a principal in a school with non-muslim majority, implements a rule which disallows wearing of the tudung in a school science laboratories, as well as compels female students to roll up their sleeves until their elbows, all these in the name of laboratory safety?
    (bunsen burners and chemicals and biological hazards being possible sources of danger)

    And if the students and parents object, will you then, in a reciprocal manner, also ask the students and parents to transfer the student to a school which does not enforce such a rule?

  120. Sebol says:

    1:”Pakaian barat vs Pakaian timur.
    Tali leher vs Songkok”

    2:”Pelajar perempuan Islam Di Malaysia sebelum 1980an semuanya DIPAKSA memakat skirt. Namun lama kelamaan, baju kurung dan tudung dibolehkan,
    begitu juga seluar pelajar sekolah lelaki, dahulunya seluar pendek kemudia dibolehkan untuk memakai seluar panjang.”

    3:”sebelum itu, lakukan inisiatif sendiri dahulu, sekolah tadika cina buat uniform pakaian tradisional cina. Kena tunjukkan bahawa orang cina betul-betul mahu pertahankan pakaian tradisional.”

    4:”Akan tetapi, jika pada tahun baru cina sekalipun pakaian tradisional tidak mahu dipakai oleh orang cina sendiri, sekurang-kurangnya sepanjang hari pada 1 hari, maka lupakan dahulu hasrat nak guna pakaian tradisional di sekolah.”
    =======

    Walaupun tali leher itu diwajibkan, setahu saya tiada siapa yang membangkang. Jika ada sesiapa yang membangkang, pasti pihak kementerian akan mengambil tindakan yang sewajarnya.

    Adakah betul mereka dipaksa atau pada masa itu kaum Islam tidak begitu mementingkan penutupan aurat?
    Semasa saya di sekolah dahulu, kesemua pelajar perempuan memakai baju kurung tanpa tudung. Tetapi lama kelamaan dengan pengajaran agama Islam yang lebih mendalam seorang demi seorang telah mula mamakai tudung. Setahu saya, di sekolah anak saya, pemakaian tudung itu diwajibkan untuk penuntut beragama Islam. Walaupun ada segelintir yang tidak suka memakainya, namun tiada siapa yang menentang arahan tersebut. Itu juga merupakan hak kebebasan individu mereka.

    Perkara “songkok” ini dibangkitkan bukan kerana kaum Cina ingin mempertahankan pakaian tradisional tetapi
    kerana kaum lain DIPAKSA memakai songkok yang kebiasaannya hanya dipakai oleh kaum Melayu yang beragama Islam. Saya harap saudara tidak persamakan kedua-dua perkara tersebut.

    Seandainya pakaian tradisional dijadikan pakaian seragam di sekolah cina, saya percaya bahawa kaum lain di sekolah tersebut juga akan membantah. Walaupun saudara mengatakan bahawa ini “tidak menjadi masalah”,tetapi saya percaya ini bukan pemikiran kesemua ibubapa yang lain termasuk kaum bukan Islam yang lain. Ini hanya pendapat saudara seorang.

    Seperti yang dinyatakan oleh penulis yang lain, ini adalah tentang hak kebebasan dan pemaksaan adat istiadat dan pegangan sesuatu kaum keatas kaum yang lain. Seperti juga orang Islam tidak boleh dipaksa memakai apa-apa pakaian atau aksesori yang membawa lambang salib dan lain-lain yang tidak berunsur Islam, begitu juga kaum agama lain tidak patut dipaksa memakai apa-apa yang dianggap bertentangan dengan pegangan mereka. Adakah itu menasabah?

  121. hi sebol… i like what you have type. and sorry for others that like calling names.

    memakai songkok tu memang takdo masa’alah untuk aku. dah menjadi kebiasaan aku, lagi lagi tinggal kat kem garrison. ada pihak akan membantah, ada yang tidak. mungkin sebabnya satu…
    untuk ku, songkok tu melambangkan budaya pakaian melayu. untuk kaum kaum lain di paksa memakainya agak sukar diterima. adakah dengan memakainya, akan memberi mereka hak yang sama seperti bumiputra. kalaulah songkok tu dijadikan sebagai salah satu pakaian tradisi malaysia, mungkin ramai akan setuju, pabila mereka diterima sebagai satu bangsa, malaysian, yang mempunyai hak sama rata tanpa status.

  122. Burn:
    Sure. That is your prerogative. Just as there were those who did wear the songkok in JB EC. However, since the ruling has been changed, all but one non-muslim prefect are not wearing it. Just goes to show that the others were also not so inclined toward wearing it but not willing to stick their necks out.

  123. “However, since the ruling has been changed, all but one non-muslim prefect are not wearing it” -needtospeak .

    Hi Kanasaikia, “a prefect in EC currently” according to you, you are not that one non-muslim prefect still wearing the songkok (after ruling has been changed) for the sake of principles? :)

  124. Little Napoleons run riot because the PM is not interested in running the country anymore. As long as his down line do not disturb his slumber party, they are free to make do on their own. So no action on his part in fighting corruption, uniting the races etc.

  126. pemakaian apa juga pakaian memang tidak menjadi masalah tetapi cara masyarakat kita terutama sebahagian kawan Melayu kita di luar sana mesti dan selalu mengagamakan dan memelayukan benda benda yang dipratik oleh mereka sebagai Islamic dan ini menjadi pemasalah yang paling kronik dalam kontek masyarakat berbilang bangsa dan agama,lihatlah ahli politik umno dalam membuat ucapan ,mereka sering kata demi bangsa dan agama,bangsa apa dan agama apa? tolong sebut degan betul dan jelas loh.kalau kita mahu perpaduan kaum di Malaysia maka ahli politik umno mesti jelaskan apa itu demi bangsa dan agama,seharusnya demi Tuhan mereka patut sebut demi bangsa-bangsa atau bangsa malaysia sekurang-kurangnya kalau mereka mahu kita semua cintai negara,dan tentang agama mesti sebut agama-agama barulah mereka ada hakasasi untuk membicara mengenai perpaduan kaum , kalau tidak mereka hanya mengguna agama dan sentimen perkauman untuk mencari keuntungan politik dan sebagainya,agama tidak memilih siapa akan lebih suci tetapi iman kita, saya adalah non muslim kalau tak bisa pakai “iman” maka kita tukar kepada kelakuan baik terhadap Tuhan,saya rasa Tuhan saya ada hak untuk pakai kerna bukan muslim saja ada Tuhan,terlalu banyak mau tulis malaslah, pendek kata jangan memelayukan Islam. hanya di Malaysia Islam itu adalah Melayu atau Melayu itu adalah Islam , di bahagian dunia lain Islam itu adalah agama bukan perkauman!jadi jangan campuradukkan kaum dan agama,saya diberitahu non muslim tidak boleh baca Al quran,kenapa?sebol boleh bicara sikit?

  127. Godfahter is just talking nonsense. He is lacking fundamental understanding on mutual respect in society.

    He will tell his son, if you dislike your dad, go commit suicide. This is his mindset, don’t wasting your time to argue with a bigot.

  128. during my father days as an army officer, he wear either a songkok or something like a hat softtop use by the british everyday while working. i have seen other races too wear songkok. be it indians, kadazans, ibans or gurkhas. so to me, it’s not a big issue as long as you don’t tie it with ugama. my father is a strong believer in buddhism.
    but when segregrating boys and girls, they might as well change to all boys school or all girls school instead!

  130. I actually support Science and Math to be teach in English. Don’t forget in our working life, the main medium we use is English and the Western is still standing high in Science and Math. If you don’t master the English language, you will have a hard time understanding their knowledge… kwkean Says

    russian built their own technology!
    japs built their own technology!
    israel built theirs too, so as italians, frenchs, germans, koreans, china, taiwanese and few other countries. most are recognised thru the whole world! and did not use english.
    are we malaysian at heart! bahasa is our national language and we should treasure and support it. even thought it’s only use in malaysia. if others can do it, why not us! looking down at bahasa, means looking down at your own country!

  131. Songkok maker. According to the Mufti of Perlis the songkok came from India. What are you talking about India being a Muslim country? Okay according to some of you the songkok is not a religious symbol, neither the Baju Melayu. And bahasa Melayu is for all.
    Can you imagine non Muslims wearing Baju Melayu, songkok andspeaking Bahasa Melayu in Church, temples and synagogues and gurdwaras? The natives of Sabah and Sarawak can do all three after all they are classified as under the Malay race? So when that happens than UMNO will have to rethink and ban wearing of songkok other than at places allowed by UMNO.

  134. Sebol obviously raised some good points about following the west.

    However, the way I see it, the issue is about ‘freedom of choice’. Given the conditions and today’s environment, a simple directive had triggered a specific response.

    Perhaps in another time, in different circumstances, the response could have been different.

    Taking that them of different time and different circumstance, the western way of ‘business attire’ dressing had now become an accepted international standard. Whether we like it or not. The world had adopted it.

    What then is left for us to do? We still have the right to choose.

    Our choice is that to decide if we want to follow that standard or not to follow that standard. Is it right? Is it wrong? From a cultural identify, it is not right.

    But then, cultural expectations is an evolution. Remember what happened to the pigtails hair for Chinese?

    Similarly we see today the Malay standard is evolving too. There are more Middle East dressing being adopted. Is it right? That is is not important. The segment of the Malay society had made a choice.

    The freedom to choose must be presented and honoured as long as it does not voilate the liberties of another person.

  135. Sebol, it is interesting that you mentioned about Baba.

    There different groups of Baba. I have seen the ones from the north and the south. There are differences.

    Baba does not dress in all-Malay dresses, Baba does not eat only Malay food. Not all Baba speaks only Malay.

    The Baba way of life is a combination of elements from the Malay and southern Chinese cultures.

    In fact, a lot of Baba speaks Chinese with some Malay words.

    You are right in saying that Babas are not Malays. We will never be.

  136. This is in response to sebol’s comments:-
    “It’s not hard to say, “Maaf encik, saya bukan Islam”. something similar happened to Baba community who speak like Malay, look like Malay but not muslim.”

    and ChinNA’s comments:-
    “You are right in saying that Babas are not Malays. We will never be.”

    While sebol is right in pointing out that saying “Maaf encik, saya bukan Islam” can easily extricate oneself from those awkward situations there is certainly no basis for him to claim “something similar happened to Baba community who speak like Malay, look like Malay but not muslim”. Some Babas, though very very few, may look like Malay but it is gross generalisation to say that Baba community look like Malay. In fact, 99% if not more of people of Baba descent look Chinese and they definitely do not look like Malay and for heaven’s sake they are non-Muslims. Many Babas speak Malay, but so do many many more non-Baba Chinese.

    Many writers and historians have traced the roots of the Babas and concluded that the hint of their possible Malay ancestry can only be attributed to the sparing instances of such inter-marriages. In his book ‘A Baba Wedding’ by Cheo Kim Ban the author highlighted the very Chinese nature of the Babas as such

    “The Babas therefore are Chinese of mainly Hokkien origin descended from the inter-marriage of early Malacca Chinese with local non-Muslim women of various races e.g Balinese, Bataks of Sumatra and Malacca Chitty, with their Chinese blood further reinforced by marriage with Chinese immigrants who came in the
    latter half of the 19th century. …… They no longer spoke the dialect of their ancestors but a language of their own known as Baba Malay.” This Baba Malay would not even be properly understood by the Malays because it is different.

    So this is a reinforcement of what ChinNA said ‘You are right in saying that Babas are not Malays. We will never be.’ Right it is, We will never be.

    By the way ChinNA, I like the way you spell your handle and not ‘CinNA’ like many of the erroneously spelt words relating to Chinese are spelt in Malaysia. A name is a name, so let the word ‘China’ be it and NOT ‘Cina’. If such a spelling standard is to be maintained then they should rename what used to be Weld Rd in KL to Jln Raja Culan.

  137. Pingback: Lim Kit Siang » Blog Archive » Time for new Education Minister if Hishammuddin cannot free national schools from the clutches of Little Mullah Napoleons (LMN)

  138. Earshot, thanks for endorsement.

    these are the reasons for my name.
    Chin is my surname and NA is the abbrevation.

    thus you get ChinNA

    (note it is easy to mistakenly see it as ChiNA. it is not. It is Chin + NA).

  139. Cheo Kim Ban in the book a Nyonya Wedding probably got it wrong. The Chinese men who were in Malacca those hundreds of years ago not only married Balinese or other Indonesian migrant women they also married local Muslim Malay women.
    I have always wondered how accurate the information in books written by authors like Cheo Kim Ban.
    Can somebody tell me what was Hang Li Poh’s muslim name?
    Now to the the Big Teachers of all Government schools, try not to worry about what your students have on their heads, worry about what they have in between their ears.

  140. ChinNA, I did observe the way you spelt your handle and thought that it had to do with your surname.

    But I was contrasting the way you spelt to the ridiculously mispelt names referring to anything ‘China’ or ‘Chinese’ as widely practised by certain overzealous groups in Malaysia.

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