Posted on by Kit

Challenge to AG/IGP to substantiate or withdraw terrorist charges against Hindraf

I just came back to Parliament from the Shah Alam Sessions Court where the Attorney-General, Tan Sri Abdul Gani Patail as expected dropped the attempted murder charge against the Batu Caves 31 after being incarcerated for close to two weeks on the ground that they are “national security” threats.

Of course I welcome the Attorney-General’s change of mind and the withdrawal of the charge of attempted murder of a policeman preferred against the Batu Caves 31 – as I had right from the beginning called on Gani to drop the charges of “attempted murder” against the 31 as well as the manhunt for another 30 on the same charge of attempted murder, as it would precipitate a new crisis of confidence in the administration of justice over selective and malicious prosecution in the abuse of the Attorney-General’s discretionary prosecution powers.

However, I am still very disappointed by Gani’s conduct in the Shah Alam Sessions Court.

Although the charges against five students for causing mischief and illegal assembly were also dropped (and they should never have been charged in the first place), the charges of causing mischief and illegal assembly against 26 remained, with their case adjourned till December 27 for sentencing following their guilty pleas this morning.

The very fact that Gani had to drop the capital charge of attempted murder against the Batu Caves 31, (which also means the abandonment of his intention to charge 30 others with the same capital offence) – which could land the guilty with a sentence of life imprisonment – is proof that the Attorney-General had abused his powers in preferring such capital charges in the first place.

It raises the question as to the real motive of the Attorney-General in abusing his powers in slapping the Batu Caves 31 with such a serious charge when there is no basis or justification whatsoever.

The two-week incarceration of the Batu Caves 31 who were denied bail on the ground of being “national and security threats” remains a blot on the nation’s administration of justice and the tenure of Gani Patail as Attorney-General.

What Gani should have done in the Shah Alam Sessions Court this morning is to withdraw all charges against all the Batu Caves 31, which would still not be full recompense for the injustice he had done to the 31 Malaysians in incarcerating them for a fortnight in prison.

I call on Gani to further reconsider the charges against the remaining 26 and when their case come up on Dec. 27, to withdraw all charges against them.

Just before the Sessions Court convened this morning at about noon, after inordinate delays, word spread that MIC President and Works Minister Datuk Seri S. Samy Vellu would be showing up in court.

However, he did not turn up – probably after he received information that he would be publicly booed by the families of the Batu Caves 31!

I had given notice to the Parliament Speaker, Tan Sri Ramli Ngah, to move an emergency motion last Monday (10th December) on the allegation by the Inspector-General of Police, Tan Sri Musa Hassan on Hindraf’s links to terrorists and canvassing for support from terrorist groups.

The motion did not come up in Parliament last Monday as the PAS MP for Kubang Kerian Sallehuddin Ayub had earlier given notice for an emergency motion about electoral abuses – and Standing Orders of the Dewan Rakyat permitted only one such motion a day.

The first time the alleged terrorist links of Hindraf leaders were alleged in the public domain was in the court proceedings of the Batu Caves 13 and made by the Attorney-General to strengthen his argument to deny bail to the accused.

As Gani could withdraw the serious charge of capital offence of attempted murder against the Batu Caves 31, the veracity of his allegation (and that of the IGP) of Hindraf’s terrorist links is most suspect.

The Attorney-General and Inspector-General of Police should substantiate their allegations of terrorist links against Hindraf leaders or they should withdraw them.

124 Replies to “Challenge to AG/IGP to substantiate or withdraw terrorist charges against Hindraf”

  2. The world is watching the antics. What a farce. Justice has been subverted and abused to such an extent.

    Anyway Gani and Musa have to answer in court to Hindraf’s charges regarding the terrorist slur.

    Of course no court in malaysia is going to fin d them guilty, but lets see how the rest of the world then sees malaysia justice system.

  4. Cant AG be sued now for abuse of power? and grossly misleading the Judge and the Public with his claims and fabrications? And leaking the slanderous reference to terrorism links. Cant he be brought to book?

    Have we any lawyers who can put pressure on these guys? This is to help them do their jobs better and keep them clean.

  5. Gani justw anna make sure the PM looks good in this issue. FIrst he slammed the harshest punishment onto them then out come the PM with his ever so kind and merciful nature.

    Doesnt the whole script looks like Sandiwara?

  6. This AG is playing a fool with the innocent lives. What type of system we have? Can be used to gempar orang lemah!!!
    AG, I suppose you are god fearing, right? Do you think that god is amused by your action ? You are committing a sin in doing all these!!

  7. I am asking the same questions as lakshy. Everyone, including the ag, sleepy pm, the lawyers and all throughout the world know that the gomen is using the judiciary to abuse and frabication of these charges to frighten any future peaceful rally.

    Yes the headline tomorrow will present how good the sleepy pm is.

    I expect the Bar Council to act, especially when one of their own lawyer Bon is apprehended and the ag is trying so hard to deny bail, for a common and normal reaction case.

    Till today the Bar Council has yet to come out with anything against this type of ag and the umno run judiciary. But with Ambiga there, we have no hope at all that the Bar Council will want to seriously fight for a clean and independent judiciary.

    I suggest that the Bar Council should start a civil disobedience by not attending court until this ag is rid off his position and replace by someone else.

    50 years is ENOUGH
    Vote For A Change
    Vote For Any Opposition
    Give Them A Chance To Change For A Better Malaysia
    Remember bn Is A Useless Grouping Of Self Serving, Corrupt, Dictator, Power Crazy, Racist, Kris waving, etc, etc type of parties.

  8. Malaysia truly a playground of the people in power. They can say anything today, charge and detain you today, and then turn everything around the next day. Power begets power.

    From a serious charge to no charge, and from no charge to a serious charge. In Chinese, there is a term called ‘mok she yew’.

  9. This is blatant abuse of the process of the court.
    It is victimization and intimidation of the helpless to the extend the AG has to tell lies and twist his subordinate (the judge) to grant him the no-bail application.
    How low can our judiciary go.
    The 31 should be set free since they have already served a jail sentence before their guilty plea.

  10. FROM ZERO TO HERO..

    with the amendment in the charges SAMY VELOO & SLEEPY DOLLAH will think they have become batu caves 31’s heros.Lim Kit Siang have been challenging this since day one.These (AG) never listen.Yesterday only i Read Tamil paper headline that Samy will Talk to PM ,today Magic Show was revealed….What a great show.

    No other way boost image…
    Economy doing down…Haoneymoon in Private Jet…
    Barang Keperluan naik harga….People have to change attitude…PM busy in Australia…shopping …

    Samy busy with road accidents ,toll increase,toll relocation…

    This is the best time for him to involve….if the Gomen his any(i said if ever they give) he will get his share for VElpari….
    LIke Maika Shares.

    COUNTRY’S REAL BACKWARD CLASS TAMILAN.THAT IS SAMY VELOOOOOOOOOOOOO…………

  11. The power-that-be have once again proved that they can & will abuse the courts, police & all others avenues of power to wield their mighty whip of power at any cost..even if it means to bully the weak.This is very shameful for a progressing nation such as ours…and now the fantastic 5 will rot under ISA while MIC will takes the credit to free Batu Cave 31. How low can you stoop to gain political mileage..very pathetic. “Lembu punye susu sapi dapat nama”

  14. “…The Attorney-General and Inspector-General of Police should substantiate their allegations of terrorist links against Hindraf leaders or they should withdraw them….”

    These allegations were made in a court of law by the AG as justifications for denying bail and if subsequently he cannot substantiate or provide proof, is that not tantamount to lying in court under oath? I am no legal eagle but as a layman thats how I see it. And perjury in court under oath is a jailable offence, is it not?

  15. If you have committed perjury and you quickly correct yourself by admitting the mistake upon discovery and apologize to persons wronged and the Court, you may get away with minimal punishment, if the nature of the perjury is not serious.

    President Clinton was found guilty of perjury for lying about his relationship with Lewinsky, yet he was not impeached. But, he did pay for committing perjury. He was suspended from legal practice, or something of that nature.

    But, if perjury had been committed to usurp the powers of the Court to maliciously punish innocent victims, there got to be some consequences against the perjurer, especially if the perjurer did not show any remorse, in order to deter future abuses of the Court.

    If the perjurer caused one victim to be jailed for 2 weeks unjustifiably, perhaps that perjurer had to be jailed for at least 2 weeks too. So multiply 2 weeks by 31 for 31 victims, the perjurer has to be jailed for 62 weeks.

    But, who is going to file such an action in court?

    Shall we solicit and donate money to a Prevention-of-Abuse-of-Power fund to engage a top lawyer, a Queen’s Counsel if necessary for this cause, so that this abuse of power will not recur?

  18. So…The UMNO government justify the detention of HINDRAF leaders because ‘they pose national security threats’..

    HOW ABOUT
    THE CASE OF MISSING Immigration records of Altantuya Shaariibuu and her two Mongolian companions.?? ALTANTUNYA SHAARIBUU WAS MURDERED IN MALAYSIA AND HER IMMIGRATION RECORD OF ENTERING MALAYSIA WAS ERASED APPARENTLY IN ATTEMPT TO PROTECT SOMEONE CLOSE THE THE INDIVIDUAL(S) IN THE GOVERNMENT FROM PROSECUTION…. HAD ALTANTUNYA CAME ALONE TO MALAYSIA, IT WOULD BE REPORTED BY THE bn GOVERNMENT THAT THAT WOMAN HAD NEVER ENTERED MALAYSIA….

    SO IF THE IMMIGRATION RECORDS CAN BE ERASED, IS’NT THERE IS A POSSIBILITY THAT SOMEONE/MAYBE TERRORIST WHO ENTERED MALAYSIA WITHOUT THEIR ENTRY RECORDED? mind you… OSAMA BIN LADEN MIGHT HAD ENTERED MALAYSIA WITHOUT HIS ENTRY RECORDED!!!!
    ]
    iSN’T THIS ACT IS POSING MUCH BIGGER NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT and deserve ISA detention? or ISA is not for UMNO’s friends and family?

    UNTIL TODAY, NOBODY WAS HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR ERASING THE IMMIGRATION RECORDS OF ALTANTUNYA AND 2 OTHERS…. SO IS THIS THE UMNO’S VERSION OF
    ‘ integrity, accountability, transparency and justice ‘ ?

    the judgment is yours…..

  19. If you know how to carry UMNaziO’s balls, you too can be AG of Msia. Just shows how shallow his knowledge is about the laws but then he is the AG. How did he get to be AG? NEP is the answer. Just promote anybody who has a bin in between.

  20. lakshy Says:

    Today at 16: 16.34 (4 hours ago)
    I hope some day Gani and Musa have to spend 2 weeks in jail, and hopefully with hardened criminals.

    Rahim Noor spent some time for socking Anwar, though he ‘cleverly and most probably feigned illness’ so as to be able to spend the time in hospital. (This is an age-old trick politicians use to spend time in the more salubrious surroundings of a hospital than a jail cell). Well, it’d be fascinating to see what charges can be filed against these two.

  21. PM should follow up on his goodwill gesture by releasing the 5 Hindraf leaders under ISA.

    Then PM should move on to release all ISA detainees and return them to their families before Hari Raya Haji.

    Subsequently, PM should give an underatking to abolish the ISA in 2008.

    These would steal the thunder from the Opposition.

    Of course, there are still other issues pending but a little goodwill for Christmas may bring a round of Ho! Ho! Ho!s and a Christmassy feel-good for all Malaysians.

  24. Yes, abuse of power by AG Gani, and IGP Musa. Perhaps Gani has forgotten what happened to his predecessor Mokhtar Abdullah after Anwar Ibrahim’s case? – call it Divine Intervention, he was definitely punished. He suddenly went into a coma and never recovered.

  26. “Can AG be sued now for abuse of power?” lakshy

    Yes. It is called frivolous prosecution.

    Those detained have lost wages and could file their claims for loss of wages and for lawyers’ fee; and if they are breadwinners their family members who are defendants could themselves directly file claims against the government for loss of financial support and emotional distress.

  29. Look the AG withdrew the attempted murder charges because he knows that he will not be able substantiate the igredients of the charge in court. So he has to mind drama. Stop the act. AG please ask why the police have still not acted on the police report made by a molest victim. Why is it because the accuse is related to “Khir the broom Toyol”

    Come on AG get your act together.

  31. “If you have committed perjury and you quickly correct yourself by admitting the mistake upon discovery and apologize to persons wronged and the Court, you may get away with minimal punishment, if the nature of the perjury is not serious.” Earnest

    Are you giving us all an 101 lecture in the law of perjury??

    A witness commits perjury only if he gives false testimony concerning a ‘material matter’ with the ‘willful intent’ to provide false testimony, rather than as a result of confusion, mistake, or faulty memory.

  32. “I suggest that the Bar Council should start a civil disobedience by not attending court until this ag is rid off his position and replace by someone else.” a-malaysian

    If lawyers do as you suggest they will end up being sued by their clients for gross negligence and may end up paying damages which could bankrupt them. They would then lose their licenses and come knocking on your door for donations! You don’t want that.

  35. “As Gani could withdraw the serious charge of capital offence of attempted murder against the Batu Caves 31, the veracity of his allegation (and that of the IGP) of Hindraf’s terrorist links is most suspect.” KIT

    Suspect? Yes, it goes without saying.

    But a matter like this would ordinarily be the subject of the preliminary inquiry (PI) when prosecution will have to prove their prima facie case; and in the event the prosecutions fails, the case of the HINDRAF 31 would be dismissed without their defense being called. As they have been detained under the Internal Security Act, I do not believe there is any intention to charge them.

    Without judicial review of the Minister’s decision, they will wallow in jail for two years at least.

  36. Are you giving us all an 101 lecture in the law of perjury??

    A witness commits perjury only if he gives false testimony concerning a ‘material matter’ with the ‘willful intent’ to provide false testimony, rather than as a result of confusion, mistake, or faulty memory. – laifoong

    I was not attempting a legal definition of perjury. You are. Then you need to define more correctly. You left out “oath” or “affirmation”. See below:

    I recall that you have a tendency to say things without checking your facts, including saying that I am a retard.

    Can a retard correct a smart person’s (like you) mistakes?

    You also did suggest that YB Lim can block a participant in this blog by blocking his/her IP address, in unjustifiably trying to instigate YB Lim to kick limkamput out.

    Do you know that most of us are using dynamic IP addresses when we go online? They change every time modems restart. IP address can be 60.50.100.34 one moment, and 218.208.223.118 another moment.

    Try this, http://www.whatismyip.com.

    So, if i am a retard. You are worse because you are being corrected by a retard.

    Please do not take it as an attack on you. It is just a learning process… Perjury 101, IP address 101.

    Perjury : the offence of wilfully telling an untruth in a court
    after having taken an oath or affirmation.

    [EARNEST – The blog has achieved a commendable civility of discourse. Please do not shatter it. – Kit]

  38. To: EARNEST

    I thought YB Kit’s advice has been made clear to you

    “I believe I am not the only one distressed by the blog’s descent and I call on all posters to end this “war” and get back to the issues raised by the threads and to contribute to raise the quality of the discussion rather than the reverse.”
    Kit

    If you insist on making postings insulting others and calling fellow posters ‘retards’ than YB Kit should adopt the drastic method of blocking your IP address so that the rest of us could continue to exchange opinions in a civil way. And yes, IP addresses could be blocked even if you are using wireless.

    By ignoring Kit’s advice aren’t you not being disrespectful to him?

  39. “Perjury : the offence of wilfully telling an untruth in a court
    after having taken an oath or affirmation.” EARNEST

    May I point out that perjury as defined is a common law definition. Today statutory law has broadened the definition of ‘perjury’ to include out of court statements under oath.

  41. If lawyers do as you suggest they will end up being sued by their clients for gross negligence and may end up paying damages which could bankrupt them. They would then lose their licenses and come knocking on your door for donations! You don’t want that. — laifoong

    A litigant can not be penalized because of his/her lawyer’s “gross negligence”. So, where is the cause for action?

    How can you label a noble and courageous act motivated by a selfless desire to check the abuse of power as “gross negligence”? If you can have your way, our legal system will go to the dogs.

  42. “The very fact that Gani had to drop the capital charge of attempted murder against the Batu Caves 31, (which also means the abandonment of his intention to charge 30 others with the same capital offence) – which could land the guilty with a sentence of life imprisonment – is proof that the Attorney-General had abused his powers in preferring such capital charges in the first place.” KIT

    No doubt a case of prosecutorial misconduct.

  43. Dear YB Lim,

    I was merely exercising my right of reply to an earlier attack by the laifoong, and her many postings against mine. see below.

    • laifoong Says:
    December 15th, 2007 (2 days ago) at 02: 57.28
    Know what?? I really think this fella EARNEST is a bit of a retard.

    Your posting below my posting appeared to target me, and not the person who initiated it.

    [This is what I posted on another thread two days ago on December 16th, 2007 at 06: 32.22:

    If there are 331 postings on the thread on the invocation of the nefarious Internal Security Act against the Hindraf Five, this will be a new record this blog can feel proud.

    As it is, there is nothing to be proud at all, but to be very ashamed and distressed at the scores of postings which hijack the thread which trivialise the ISA detentions and the serious issues discussed.

    There is only one person who is gleefully following the descent of this blog – the Information Minister, Zainuddin Maidin who will be able to tell the world that Malaysians are just “goblok” and do not have the maturity to handle freedom of expression, whether cyberspace or terrestrial.

    I believe I am not the only one distressed by the blog’s descent and I call on all posters to end this “war” and get back to the issues raised by the threads and to contribute to raise the quality of the discussion rather than the reverse.

    I feel proud that in the ensuing 50-odd postings, there have been exemplary civility – that we can agree to disagree, however vehemently, without being disagreeable. I want to commend in particular limkamput for his contribution.

    Let us move on EARNEST from 16/12/07 6.32.22 am and together build a blog which can be a byword for strong but civil opinions. – Kit]

  47. “A litigant can not be penalized because of his/her lawyer’s “gross negligence”. So, where is the cause for action? How can you label a noble and courageous act motivated by a selfless desire to check the abuse of power as “gross negligence”? If you can have your way, our legal system will go to the dogs.” EARNEST

    (I hope EARNEST is still around to read and reply or at least drops by to read and make comments and contribute to the blog in a positive way).

    I think here he is genuinely and honestly mistaken.

    A lawyer is not only a representative of his client but an officer of the court, a public citizen having special responsibility for the quality of justice. A lawyer is responsible to observe the law and the Rules of Professional Conduct.

    He takes the Oath when he or she is called to the Bar.

    It is this Oath that you’re suggesting that he violates when you suggest that lawyers absent themselves from court when they are scheduled to appear before the judge.

  48. Undergrad2,
    Please enlighten me as to what you mean by contribute to the blog in a positive way.

    I am not mistaken. I think you missed the point. You have to look at the bigger picture.

    If lawyers do not unite as one voice, giving prior notice to the courts for a boycott in order to uphold justice, to prevent abuse of power, each of them will be less effective in representing his/her clients because of a defective legal system – abuse of power.

    The boycott has to be coordinated, and planned properly well before hand, so that hearings will not take place, and clients’ interest are not jeopardized. It is like a picket, a strike demanding changes of the legal system for the better for their clients’ sake.

  50. I feel proud that in the ensuing 50-odd postings, there has been exemplary civility – that we can agree disagree, however vehemently, without being disagreeable. I want to commend in particular limkamput for his contribution.

    Let us move on EARNEST from 16/12/07 6.32.22 am and together build a blog which can be a byword for strong but civil opinions. – Kit]

    Dear YB Lim,

    Thank you for your reply and your acknowledgment of limkamput’s contributions, which had been unfairly treated.

    Just as I thought my reply to laifoong’s earlier attack was the last remnant of unfinished business, BoDo Singh came along with a derogatory remark.

    I agree with you wholeheartedly that we should move on from 16/12/07 6.32.22 am and together build a blog which can be a byword for strong but civil opinions.

  51. “….so that hearings will not take place…” EARNEST
    Why would or should the courts want to do that?? – Undegrad2

    If you know that you are not going to have any customers for the day, will you close shop for the day and go for a holiday?

    If the Plaintiffs’ and Defendants’ lawyers are not coming to Court, why hold any hearing? The judges have no one to listen to.

  53. “If the Plaintiffs’ and Defendants’ lawyers are not coming to Court, why hold any hearing? The judges have no one to listen to” EARNEST

    If the lawyers fail to make their scheduled appearances in court, they would be violating the Oath they took when they were called to the Bar.

  55. “BoDo Singh came along with a derogatory remark.” Earnest

    My remarks derogatory? I thought that was a self-deprecating remark on my part!

    “Earnest, stupid as my handle suggests that was days ago and before Kit made his warning.” BoDo Singh

  56. The power of wayang kulit! I can confirm that the Batu Caves 31 will put their votes for BN in the next coming election. Not only them but their family members as well. It could be part of the deal to release them, who knows. As the ballot paper contain a serial number, the government can monitor if they had betray them or not. Scary isn’t it?

    If they dare to vote for other parties, I’m sure they will be sent to jail or worst of all, ISA. You might think that I’m talking crap here but those who voted before and those working in the government civil departments know what I mean especially the serial number!

    Even such deal doesn’t exist, they still have to vote for BN. No way they would cause anymore troubles after this event. They have family to take care and they are not rich like our YB LKT. They cannot afford to be charge again else no one will take care their family. A 2 way win win situation for our AAB!

    Geng or not his wayang kulit show?? Not only he will gain more votes from the Batu Caves 31 and their family members but also from those who feel AAB is kind enough to let them go. Puik! Disgusting tactic yet some aunties and uncles will still fall for it!!

  57. If the lawyers fail to make their scheduled appearances in court, they would be violating the Oath they took when they were called to the Bar. –Undegrad2

    Imho, the lawyers’ oath to uphold justice and to protect the interest of clients, is just as important as their scheduled appearance, which can be postponed to another date, which must be done because business will be closed on the scheduled date, no customers are coming.

    Isn’t there flexibility in rescheduling hearing dates, especially when the courts have no other choice ? Of course ample notice must be given by coordinators of such planned boycott to allow rescheduling of hearings.

  63. Because they have no choice. All lawyers in unison are not attending courts. All lawyers in unison are telling the judges who will tell the fixing clerks that on boycott day/s, no lawyers are coming to Court. That day or those days will have to be vacated.

  64. And if sittings continue? And if a lawyer appears for the hearing as scheduled, and you don’t? And your client’s case is then struck off or worse judgment is awarded to the other party?

    Not to mention that in many cases it has taken years to reach to that point and the fact that lawyers may not be able to re-instate their case. Not to mention that clients would like their cases settled expeditiously and clients are paying you enormous sums of money in major cases, to act for them in their interest and not in your interest.

    This is assuming that you want to break your oath as an attorney and office of the court.

    It is not going to happen.

  66. I said this from the start that this was a mistake politically for the PM. I thought he was not smart enough to stop this train wreck from getting worst but it turned out he was not completely dumb.

    But this event reveal something about this PM. The international press has always said this PM is trying to do a balancing act of different groups.

    The problem is this ‘balancing act’ will ultimately lead us to no change or nowhere. We can tell from recent RCI member and terms of reference as well as the SCC that its another example of going nowhere and maintaining the status quo while his game playing actually cause damage in the long term.

    This fake 31 ‘attempted murder’ charge for example sets a new precedent. Firstly it erodes confidence in the AG office. Sooner or later someone is going to sue the AG office. Secondly, it sets a new benchmark for political interference in police, the AG office and the courts. I would not be surprise if the PM office will now be inundated with cases for appeals for everything and the most ridiculous. We are truly moving to a ‘selected Sultanate’ system.

    All this erodes the values of our institutions of which gives ample opportunity for those in power to abuse it. Those people that screens for the PM is in even better position to benefit from what is going on.

    This PM is a civil servant to the core and is skilled in not putting his ass on the line for anything. The ones that pay for this lack of leadership and vision is ordinary Malaysians today but much more so in the future.

  68. the Star (18.12.07) is on full gear to spin again – be grateful and thankful to our mighty, charitable, benevolent, sensitive, caring leader:

    The charge of attempted murder against 31 people arrested at an illegal gathering at the Sri Subramaniyar Temple in Batu Caves last month has been dropped.

    MIC president Datuk Seri S. Samy Vellu has thanked Attorney-General Tan Sri Gani Patail for dropping the attempted murder charge against 31 people who were involved in the Hindraf illegal demonstration on Nov 25.

    Support me and I will not disappoint you, said Prime Minister Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi.

    The Government will study the right mechanism to further improve efforts to help non-Muslim communities, said Deputy Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak.

    Yup, the general election will be held soon.

  69. EARNEST never suggested telling the judges what to do.

    Nazri had said that there was no crisis in the Judiciary, that people still have confidence in the Judiciary because people are still coming to Courts. This is not true because people have no other choice at the moment.

    The Malaysian Bar has to do something to show Nazri and the Judiciary that people’s confidence in the Judiciary is in fact zilch.

    Your concerns about the aftermath of a boycott is understandable but not unsurmountable. The most important thing is that it must be a concerted effort. Remember, united we stand, divided we fall.

    If clients are penalized just to sabotage the legal profession’s boycott, how about filing a class action suit against the Malaysian Judiciary in an appropriate International Court? It may be beyond my legal knowledge to suggest a foolproof solution or contingency plan should innocent clients be penalized, which is against natural justice. The contributions of the best legal minds in the country may be helpful.

  73. The Government released 31 Hindraf members Not
    becoz they wanted to but it is becoz from the 14 NGOs
    and world critics over their wrongful arrest by the
    government!!

    The arrest of lawyers from Bar Council during The Human
    Right Day will have a better say that ‘The street protest
    is Not our Culture…but for the Westerners’, says the
    Malaysia Government…!!

    Don’t you think this statement has since become a
    laughing stalk to foreigners and people from all over the
    world…!!

    It simply reflects the government’s weakness and inability
    to tackle problems!!

  75. You don’t want to do that daphne aka earnest! Can we move on?

    A political blog depends for its strength, in my opinion and the opinion of many others, on the diversity of opinions. This blog would be the poorer without opinions for example that run counter to those of YB Kit.

    When you put forward your argument be prepared to see counter arguments expressed by other posters. Sometimes it is not about opinion on the facts. Sometimes it is just you not getting the facts correct. The logical thing to do then is to correct yourself and move on. That applies to all of us. We are not infallible.

  78. Do not AssUMe that I am daphne.

    Buddha said do not be too sure of yourself because you could be wrong.

    Tell me where do I get my facts wrong.

    Sometimes, in attempting to write something that run counter to those of YB Lim’s, I noticed that you had compromised your intellectual integriry.

    I am not saying that you can not oppose YB Lim. I would like to suggest that one should refrain from opposing for the sake of opposing in order to enrich the blog and/or just to show that one has independence of thoughts.

    You could be doing the issue under discussion a disservice by diluting the Opposition’s efforts in condemning strongly yet civilly the abuse of, for example, the ISA powers by Powers-that-be.

    Do not trivialize abuse of ISA, with its power of indefinite detention without trial. We should not compromise with it under any circumstances.

    I can not agree with your argument that the Hindraf 5 deserved to be detained under the ISA.

    Your friends or loved ones may one day be ISA victims too even though you yourself may not be a potential candidate, with your propensity to invariably oppose YB Lim’s truly independent and courageous views against BN’s excesses.

  81. “Do not trivialize abuse of ISA…” EARNEST

    How does one abuse the Internal Security Act (ISA)?? Isn’t the ISA an abuse of due process i.e. detaining someone without charge, without trial and access to counsel?? So how does one abuse the abuse???

    Then how does one trivialize the abuse of the abuse? Trivialize the abuse or exacerbate the abuse? Man, I don’t get it. Do you guys get it??

  84. Naaahh…! Let Earnest speak.

    He says “If ….you are not going to have any customers for the day, will you close shop for the day and go for a holiday?” He compares our courts to shops and law like any other business.

    That is his view of our justice system.

    Judges could take the day off because lawyers absent themselves from court and because there’s nothing for the judges to listen to. Judges and lawyers could come together and “act in unison” and “with one voice” because the purpose is an honorable one i.e. to bring back independence to the judiciary. That after all is democracy.

    Then he asked “Where did he get the facts wrong”.

  86. “Do not trivialize abuse of ISA…” EARNEST

    How does one abuse the Internal Security Act (ISA)?? Isn’t the ISA an abuse of due process i.e. detaining someone without charge, without trial and access to counsel?? So how does one abuse the abuse???

    Then how does one trivialize the abuse of the abuse? Trivialize the abuse or exacerbate the abuse? Man, I don’t get it. Do you guys get it??

  87. Daphne says: Calling Commendable limkamput (new title courtesy of YB lim)… EARNEST besieged… Reinforcement required

    Earnest, Daphne
    Sorry I was away due to work. I am not proud that Sdr Kit commended me not because I don’t respect him. I don’t deserve it.

    I read the debate above and my advice is don’t fall into the trap as I did earlier. I think each of us tend to be egoistic behind the key board because we are to some extent shielded from others. Initially, I was too impatient with views and ideas expressed by others. However, I still believe that we have to right to comment on the views expressed by others so long as we put it more diplomatically. I was blunt and confrontational because I thought that was more effective in getting my ideas across. I have learned the bitter lesson. I will, however, follow undergrad2 advice to focus on the writing and not the writers. I hope he too will follow his own counsel.

    If we stay here long enough, I think others will eventually take notice of who we are and what we stand for. The more we write, the more we reveal ourselves. Let others judge what each of us are made of. Please don’t get me wrong. I am not trying to be a nice guy and I have openly confessed my transgression.

    Most of us come here and take on the moral high road but the reality within each of us is very different. The main difference, Earnest and Daphne, is whether we know or not that each of us is rotten inside. Since you quoted a verse from the scripture, may be you should know story of the Pharisee and the tax collector when each of them prayed to God, the Father.

  89. “I will, however, follow undergrad2 advice to focus on the writing and not the writers.”

    Well said, limkamput! It is time to move on, don’t you think?

    Your pal Earnest must get over it, heed YB Kit’s advice always and act for the common good instead of the narrow self-interest of the few.

    HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

    As I am a Christian I should say “Merry X’mas” though by doing so I’d be opening myself to criticism for taking an exclusive approach rather than an inclusive one.

  90. Limkamput: “I was blunt and confrontational because I thought that was more effective in getting my ideas across.”

    You’re both right and wrong here.

    By all means be blunt though not necessarily confrontational if by being blunt means you’re honest and passionate about your beliefs on the issues. In your case, you were not blunt so much as you were confrontational and abrasive in your approach often focusing on the messenger rather than the message.

    In your posting above you used “I” no less than fifteen times. Undergrad uses “I” only once when he could have used it five times! Perhaps the next time you are inclined to use “I” try using “we” instead. That is what is meant by being confrontational. You can be just as effective in putting your point across.

  92. But like undergrad reminds us all it is time to get over it and move on. limkamput was doing well by moving on until Earnest here comes and tries to open old wounds. That he shouldn’t do and should stop doing.

  94. limkamput has mellowed, which is good.
    I am not a Christian. I am an agnostic. I have no idea about the “story of the Pharisee and the tax collector when each of them prayed to God, the Father.” Perhaps you can enlighten me, and perhaps others too.

    However, here are answers to some questions raised.

    “He compares our courts to shops and law like any other business.” — Dark Horse

    Dark Horse,
    Picture in your mind’s eyes an empty kopitiam boycotted by customers, with the proprietor staring into empty chairs. Next, picture in your mind’s eyes inside the judges’ Chambers, judges throughout the country staring into empty chairs where Plaintiffs’ and Defendants’ lawyers were supposed to be sitting, following a boycott of the judiciary. We know that the kopitiam proprietor will close shop for the day. I suppose the judges will do likewise. Just until this stage. Do not go any further into the nature of the work,etc,etc. You are not expected to extrapolate.

    I am not equating Court to Shop, law to any other business. I was using an analogy for the immediate effect of a boycott, empty chairs, no customers, no lawyers.

    I come across 5 definitions of analogy. I am using the fifth one here.
    Analogy – a form of reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in a certain respect, on the basis of the known similarity between the things in other respects.
    A logical argument by analogy relies upon an inductive inference from the supposition that things are similar in certain known respects to the likelihood that they are also similar in some further unknown respect.

    DarkHorse said: “Judges and lawyers could come together and “act in unison”
    I never said Judges and lawyers…. Only lawyers. When you quote what somebody said, you need to be accurate, otherwise you could be accused of “putting words into somebody’s mouth” in order to support your argument in a crooked way.

    Godamn Singh, Count Dracula, Laifoong,
    You are entitled to your own opinions, which may be personal, not objective, and do not warrant answers.

    “Then how does one trivialize the abuse of the abuse? Trivialize the abuse or exacerbate the abuse? Man, I don’t get it. Do you guys get it??” — DiaperHead.

    You are suggesting the word abuse is redundant? ISA stands for Internal Security Act. Check in any thesaurus, it is not synonymous with abuse. It is legitimate to some, connotes abuse to some.

    “narrow self-interest of the few.” — undegrad2
    I don’t get this.

    Colonel,
    Do not AssUMe. Is cross dressing a fetish you indulge in, since you are so obsess with it?

  96. “limkamput has mellowed, which is good.” EARNIE

    Here you’re implying that limkamput used to be less than matured in personality and experience and has now mellowed. He may want to take it up with you.

    “I am not a Christian”.

    Normally one who is fond of quoting from holy scriptures is religious and in this case since you’re quoting from the Holy Bible, you cannot fault anyone for assuming that you’re Christian but certainly not agnostic.

  97. Dear Earnest, I hope I am not causing misunderstanding. I understand your feeling with regard to your current debate and I just hope that others will be magnanimous, liberal and democratic as they claimed. What I was saying was most of us (me included of course) may not really know the rot within us. Please note I am not targeting at you. The scripture says in Luke 18: 10 – 14 “ Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee (religious teacher) and the other a tax collector (tax collectors those days were considered sinful people). The Pharisee stood up and pray about himself, ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men – robbers, evildoers, adulterers – or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
    ‘But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to the heaven (he felt the guilt in him), but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
    Jesus said, the tax collector rather than the Pharisee went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
    I know it is difficult because sometimes people just go on and on as if wanting to test you and cause you to loose your patience again. I do not want to respond again not because I have nothing to respond. I am trying very hard to follow my own counsel and I hope others who write or said so eloquently on what is right and what is wrong should do likewise. Please don’t misunderstand me again; I am not talking about you. Let it go and just concentrate on the issues at hand. By all means debate and argue with them if you feel strongly what they said is not right or illogical. Happy Holiday.

  102. Laifoong is only quoting what Earnest said. With his statement he did not add new meaning to what Earnest said earlier.

    So you should ask the maker of the statement as to what he meant by “mellow which is good”. Obviously to him you were not mellowed before but is now.

  105. liafoong and darkhorse, I think what Earnest said of me is ok. He was actually supportive of what all of you want me to be. As we agreed (including advice from Sdr Kit), we will just focus on issues and ideas. Sometimes, even this may be difficult if we take it personally. So some degree of tolerance and magnanimity is still needed.

    Liafoong I will not be answering to your challenge in another thread. If you disagree or agree, you have to state your position first. If you want me to elaborate, you have to tell me more what exactly you want to know more. Otherwise it is difficult for me to respond.

  106. Goodness Gracious! Just one word “mellowed” can trigger off a chain of instigations, appearing like scrapping the bottom of a barrel to find something which was not there merely for provocation.

    I used the word “mellowed” to refer to a more tolerant, gentle and relaxed attitude. The degree of mellowing is subjective. So, before a person is considered mellowed, his/her level of tolerance, gentleness and relaxation may already be higher than those of a bunch of provocateurs. It is not an all-or-nothing description of character. For example, the words “White” and “Black” are definite, but the word “Grey” is subjective, with various shades from the extremes of white to black.

    I said “…..mellowed, which is good” because it was good mainly for a bunch of mischievous provocateurs for being spared a massacre, with survivals limping and crying to YB Lim, likened to axe wielding thugs being thrown out of the arena by Stephen Chow in the movie “Kungfu Hustle” (2004).

    It is also good to maintain civility of discourse.

    To digress bit, another movie about a rotten judiciary and legal system “Justice, My Foot” (???) by Stephen Chow is interesting, like a satire on our judiciary and legal system.

    Level of skill of inference of Laifoong, Dark Horse and DiaperHead will definitely be failed by Cambridge brat, with Laifoong getting a negative score.

    DiaperHead, some of your comments on DAPHNE’s has been wrongly attributed to me.

    limkamput, thanks for the explanation. I think if I add any more words, they may trigger off another endless chain reaction of out-of-topic remarks, necessitating a moderator to step in.
    YB Lim’s show of support for limkamput’s commendable contributions, despite provocateurs’ urgings to kick him out vindicated my judgment.

    A couple of weeks earlier in this blog, somebody had said that the Chinese were “Kia See” meaning literally “Afraid of Death” or cowardly, unlike Hindraf. To rebut, I had mentioned that a Chinese activist was even deprived off his citizenship for fighting the cause of Chinese education perhaps a bit too passionately to the powers-that-be. The Chinese community did engage a Queen Counsel with its own money to fight for its constitutional rights to establish a Chinese University in the 80s. The Chinese are not cowards, but are highly tolerant. However, the Chinese word for tolerance, ? “ren” has the word knife ? “dao” on top. That means do not push them too far in denying them their constitutional rights, they may retaliate. Basing on an article in the Sun, New Era College has submitted its application on 14.12.2007, to upgrade it to Chinese University status. Let’s hope for the best for its endeavor. This again vindicated my judgment.

    So, please take note of my impersonal judgment of your skill of inference and improve yourself.

    You see, the Chinese characters give some clues as to their meanings. I discovered through self-study that the radicals (at least 192) indicate whether a character connotes liquid, plants, people, female, etc. Even the late President Kennedy knew that the Chinese word for crisis?? “wei ji” has the word opportunity in it.
    Our beloved country Malaysia is now beset with crises of confidence in the AG’s chambers, the police force and the judiciary. However, now with these crises, ancient Chinese wisdom teaches us that we have the opportunities to right the wrongs.

    The issue under discussion here is “Challenge to AG/IGP to substantiate or withdraw terrorist charges against Hindraf”. We have the opportunity to contribute our ideas in this blog to avert crises. Do not squander it. What I write should not be a focus of your constant contributions and consternations.

    Shall we move on, and concentrate on the above issue of discussion, please?

  107. Goodness Gracious! Just one word “mellowed” can trigger off a chain of instigations, appearing like scrapping the bottom of a barrel to find something which was not there merely for provocation.

    I used the word “mellowed” to refer to a more tolerant, gentle and relaxed attitude. The degree of mellowing is subjective. So, before a person is considered mellowed, his/her original level of tolerance, gentleness and relaxation may already be higher than those of a bunch of provocateurs. It was not an all-or-nothing description of character. For example, the words “White” and “Black” are definite, but the word “Grey” is subjective, with various shades from the extremes of white to black.

    I said “…..mellowed, which is good” because it was good mainly for a bunch of mischievous provocateurs for being spared a massacre, with survivals limping and crying to YB Lim, likened to axe-wielding thugs being thrown out of the arena by Stephen Chow in the movie “Kungfu Hustle” (2004).

    It was also good to maintain civility of discourse.

  109. LOL. It never ceases to amaze me the length someone like Earnie aka Daphne would go to wriggle himself out of a situation he himself has created.

    Suggesting someone is not “mellow” cannot be a compliment to the one alleged not to be “mellow”. If a stranger comes up to me and say that I’m not mellow enough or rough around the edges I’ll probably kick him in the ass!

    Now we can all move on.

  110. EARNEST: “I used the word “mellowed” to refer to a more tolerant, gentle and relaxed attitude.”

    Precisely. You are saying that the person you said “not to be mellow” and “has now mellowed” is someone who is less tolerant, less gentle and less relaxed in his attitude – using your very own words.

    If limkamput sats that he is happy being referred to as “not mellow” before but is “mellowed now” who are we to say he should not be happy??

    Now we can really move on.

  112. I already said I have no problem with Earnest’s description of me. From the very beginning, Earnest has shown fairness and magnanimity and that is why I was never angry with him even though he made some comments against me earlier. So this mellon or not mellon thing is not an issue and does not bother me. cukup lah.

  114. Dear Laifoong,

    Please do not get upset. Rest assured that nobody can fail you that badly that you get a negative score, including Cambridge brat.

    In all tests, the lowest mark you can get is zero. Just kidding you. I must thank you for upgrading my sense of tolerance.

    Actually, I think you are quite smart, but a bit temperamental and I am quite sure very young, and perhaps sweet innocence.

    I am sorry, if I had hurt your feelings. It was unintentional.

    Dark Horse,
    There is a Chinese saying, “Tolerate, tolerate until you can not tolerate, still you must tolerate”. This is the maximum limit of tolerance.

    On the other extreme, at the slightest provocation, a person may overreact. Like smashing your head with a steering rod because you scratched his car, or chopping off your head because you flashed your headlight indicating intention to overtake, which really happened in real life — road rages. This is the minimum limit of tolerance.

    So, in between this two extremes of tolerance, a person can be more and more tolerant. It is not like what you think. When I say you are more tolerant now, it does not mean you were not tolerant yesterday. The degree of tolerance just increases, analogous to calibrations on a thermometer, there is a scale. The temperature can get increasingly warmer from dawn to noon.

  117. Earnest, I hope the moderator will take notice of who actually are the trouble makers here! These are the one liners (especially laifoong, have you seen him/her writing one paragraph before) who probably can’t write one paragraph and yet want to insult others so much.

  118. Who’s the real terrorist, the Hindraf or the government.

    I believe that the government is more like a terrorist for causing fear among the people to voice out their opinion. The people cannot even voice out without putting their lives and job at risk. People are silent to keep their jobs.

    Protesters in BERSIH and Hindraf demonstration are being detained. Isn’t that enough evidence to prove my statement?

  120. limkamput,

    I agree with you.

    Not only are they bankrupt of ideas, they are also incoherent, probably engaging in somniloquy.

    I guess laifoong is a teenage male, with a female name.

    Let them sleep on undisturbed. Nobody should disturb their somniloquy, which revealed their subconscious mental state.

  122. DarkHorse Says:
    I think limkamput is the terrorist. He doesn’t play by the rules. He thought he could ambush you but ends up ambushing himself!

    totally incoherent, typical of someone who got a fake degree. spm grade 3, no stpm, entering one of the good for nothing uni through back door, and now probably holding a low paying job.

  123. I guess laifoong is a teenage male, with a female name. Earnest

    EArnest why we bother, he/she is in between. one morning he wakes up man, one morning she wakes up women, one morning he/she wakes up in between, that is ms/mr/ms(mrs) laifoong. i am confused by all these confused people.

  124. Normal males have XY chromosomes, females XX chromosomes. There are some among us who have one extra X chromosome, i.e. XXY males.

    Many men with XXY live out their lives without ever suspecting that they have an additional chromosome. But, there are some XXY boys and men, who exhibit the Klinefelter syndrome. Laifoong, Count Dracula and Dark Horse are possibly XXY boys who exhibit this syndrome.

    What problems do XXY males have? – adapted from an online scientific article.

    In addition to occasional breast enlargement, lack of facial and body hair, and a rounded body type, XXY males are more likely than other males to be overweight, and tend to be taller than their fathers and brothers.

    A far more serious problem is one that is not always readily apparent. Although XXY males are not usually mentally retarded, most have some degree of language impairment. As children, they often learn to speak much later than do other children and may have difficulty learning to read and write. And while they eventually do learn to speak and converse normally, the majority tend to have some degree of difficulty with language throughout their lives.

    If untreated, this language impairment can lead to school failure and its attendant loss of self esteem. Fortunately, however, this language disability usually can be compensated for. Chances for success are greatest if treatment for the language difficulty is begun in early childhood.

    Hence, laifoong, Count Dracula and Dark Horse should take my explanation seriously, and try to improve themselves.

    It got to be XXY, otherwise how do you explain the great difficulty I had trying to explain to them that tolerance has a range of levels. After I thought I had explained clearly enough, they indulged in somniloquy.

    To elaborate further on my explanation of tolerance level to make sure that these boys really understand their XXY problem, let me illustrate by quantifying tolerance.

    On a scale of 0 to 10 for tolerance levels, laifoong scored 3 points; Dark Horse and Count Dracula, 4 points; Cambridge brat, 4 points b4 the great debate, 8 points after the great debate; limkamput, 8 points b4 mellowing, 10 points after mellowing; DAPHNE, 10 points; EARNEST, 10 points.

    Trust my judgment. You see, my judgments have been vindicated several times before.

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