Shyam forwarded an email from Ananthi, a Rhodes scholar, now reading for her PhD at Oxford which eloquently articulates the Malaysian Indian dilemma which should be compulsory reading by the Prime Minister and the entire Cabinet as well as all Malaysians:
Dear friends,
I feel so outraged, angry, hurt and impotent seeing the photos of the police’s (government’s) reactions to Sunday’s rally. In Batu Caves for instance, the protesters were literally boxed into the temple grounds and had water canons and tear gas shot at them. It looks totally unprovoked, except that I suppose it contravenes the court order obtained to ban the protest. But the reaction of the police should not have been to do what they did – that was an unprovoked, unjustifiable use of force.
Somewhat paradoxically, I am very grateful that this is finally happening. That the Indians have found their voices. The temple demolitions could have been the best thing to happen for our country and community in terms of seeing a grass roots agitation to topple the clearly illegitimate status hierarchy and power differential in Malaysia.
I read Malik Imtiaz’s article and I think it is good. Same for Haris Ibrahim. I only wish that people would STOP saying that they have a problem with the Indians fighting for Indian/Hindu rights. That they should be fighting for the collective poor’s rights. I am afraid I find this kind of reasoning completely devoid of logic or historical foundation. The Indians have been the most marginalised group in this country. Have there been millions of Malays who have been marginalised and who fall below the poverty line? Yes. But as a group, the Indians stand out as having received the least favour and the worst treatment over the last 50 years, BECAUSE they are Indian. So as a group they coalesce (finally) and stand up to fight for their rights, and then you have all these Malaysian liberals who would have this low status, disenfranchised group fight for the rights of ALL? When the discrimination against the Indians has been based on their group membership, suddenly we want them to put this aside, rise above it and say ‘let us fight for all the poor’?. This is seriously flawed thinking. It panders to an ideal without taking into account the reality on the ground. People are constrained by their experiences – the people of Malaysia have been taught over and again to see themselves in terms of their racial groups. Thus a reaction to the racism they have suffered is NOT a deracialised response. That would be neither possible, nor given our history, even desirable. Malaysia is all about race and as long as that is the case, people must coalesce around such groupings. Once we can, at a higher level, dismantle racial politics, policy, education etc., then we can ask that people stop thinking of themselves as Indians and more as Malaysians.
I don’t like that Hindraf has made this a Hindu issue – I think introducing religion into an already racially charged atmosphere is a very incendiary thing. And doing this means that the support of non-Hindu Indians will be absent for this cause. Having said that, Hindu reactions are not out of place given the more extreme Islamic tendencies of this country since the 1980s and the more recent destruction of temples. Seeing the images of the destruction of the temple in Shah Alam was a very painful experience. And that’s the thing about religion – its simultaneous sanctity and primacy -even when we do not buy into a particular faith- make it an incredibly emotive issue around which to gather people to action.
The last 3-4 days have been very difficult for me emotionally because I have felt hopelessly helpless sitting here in Oxford spending hours poring over spss output sheets rather than being involved on the ground back at home. I have no doubt in my mind that I would have been at that rally on Sunday. It has more to do with just protecting the right to allow people to express themselves and protest (though that is very important). It has more to do with the fact that we, as upper middle class Malaysian Indians have not done enough to show our solidarity with less socio-economically successful Indians. Of course we engage in important charity work which tries to raise the educational and socio economic standing of the Indians. We give to temple funds. We pay for individual Indian children to be fed and educated. But we are always giving a helping hand up – trying to elevate the Indians to where we are. I do not for a minute dispute that this is an incredibly important thing to be doing. But on Sunday we had the opportunity to stand alongside -shoulder to shoulder with- our fellow Indians rather than above them and I feel that many of us lost this perhaps once in a life time (though I hope I am wrong about this) opportunity. Times like this are not ones to debate over the particular words used or issues mentioned – I find it somewhat absurd that this rally would have had as one of its central aims submitting a letter to the Queen of England. For me that perpetuates us in our roles of a time that we should have long transcended. But that said, I think it would be duplicitous of me not to join in the march because of these issues.
Because I, like many of you, know that that is not what this rally was about.
It was about being neglected, about not having a seat at the table to bargain, about having a national and communal leadership that we do not trust and is utterly discreditable. It is about saying no to being the forgotten Indians, and not enough of us in our comfortable houses, those of us who managed to work the system to our benefit – stood with the other Indians, who are not so different from us.
I don’t mean to attack any of you personally. Perhaps some of you did march. Or perhaps some of you didn’t because of compelling reasons. But the fact remains that many of us who were able did not, because we don’t identify ourselves with these poorer versions of ourselves. I worry that we are not Indian enough in a way that counts.
Best wishes from a bleak and distant place,
Ananthi
“I don’t like that Hindraf has made this a Hindu issue – I think introducing religion into an already racially charged atmosphere is a very incendiary thing. And doing this means that the support of non-Hindu Indians will be absent for this cause.”
That is the position many of us take. Like I said earlier the approach was exclusive rather than inclusive. Was that smart? Many don’t think so. But the Indians are not a homogeneous nor a united lot. Who could blame them? What of the Sikhs who were brutally discriminated against by the Indian government along with other ethnic minorities. The Indian government has in fact turned a blind eye to the suffering of the Tamil Hindus fleeing persecution from Muslim Bangladesh.
“I only wish that people would STOP saying that they have a problem with the Indians fighting for Indian/Hindu rights. That they should be fighting for the collective poor’s rights.”
The collective poor among the Indians – yes. Why Hindu and why Tamil only?
“I find it somewhat absurd that this rally would have had as one of its central aims submitting a letter to the Queen of England. For me that perpetuates us in our roles of a time that we should have long transcended.”
The idea is said to be to “embarrass the Malaysian government” on the international stage, to get international public opinion on their side. But why an appeal to the constitutional monarch of a colonial power under which we were all second class citizens? It would appear that the money issue was used to lure the naive and ignorant Indians from the plantations to the capital.
Recently a few foreign friends of mine told me bruntly that Malaysia was the only country practicing apartheid to the highest level in this world!
Its shameful that some who have no idea of the indian psyche comment as if they are experts on it. Actually if you have nothing to contribute you dont have to spew rubbish and show your utter ignorance. It may be wiser to keep your comments to yourself.
Why the world allowed this kind of discrimination and inhuman treatment of HUMAN BEING in Malaysia? I hope the rest of world will do something. Put forward a resolution in the UN to condemn Malaysia , so that we will be a normal country from then on
Rustam Ali – revoke citizenship! which means without citizenship you are kicked out of the country. Sama dengan “kalau tak suka keluar”.(Today’s Star)
Finally, the PM read the memo and he mentioned he is very upset with words like ethnic cleansing. Even another Indian Chandra Muzaafar also said the same thing.
So here we go again instead of addessing why people demonstated, why government didn’t respond to the memos much much earlier we are faced with same standard response.
I guess nothing will change. Damn!! if only my forefathers were alive I would sue them for bringing me to British Malaya.
Meanwhile, I have to do a google or yahoo for the meaning of “ethnic cleansing”.
Apartheid is pretty much alive in Malaysia
UMNO has started their Malays vs Indians propaganda thru the media daily. Time has come for all malays , indians, chinese, ibans, kadazans etc to stand side by side against those racist thugs of UMNO.
Stand as Malaysians.
yes apartheid is alive and well in Malaysia should be a UN item for discussion
Apatheid is alive? I thought the dude is long dead man! Thought I helped bury the guy not long ago. Got some weed man??
Typical response of UMNO bigots: you don’t like the way we treat you, GET OUT! GET LOST! BE THANKFUL FOR THE CRUMBS WE FEED YOU! There you have Rustam wanting to REVOKE CITIZENSHIP. Have you heard of any leader elsewhere who say such thing to their own citizens? Do Russians tell Chechen rebels to give up their citizenship? Arroyo to Phillipine rebels? Sri Lanka to Tamil Rebels? What is this? In Malaysia, citizenship of non-malays is no longer a right, but a privilege granted by UMNO?
Umno vice-president Datuk Seri Mohd Ali Rustam has rebuked Hindu Rights Action Force (Hindraf) leaders for their “outrageous actions†and urged the Government to revoke their citizenship.
He said Hindraf’s claim that the country was involved in ethnic cleansing was slanderous and very serious.
“There is no such thing. They should be in jail for saying that,†he said at the launch of the Federation of Malay Economic Bodies (Gabem) southern region and Federal Territory here yesterday.
Mohd Ali said he would fully support it if the Internal Security Act was used against those who organised the illegal Hindraf gathering.
“They are going to send their memorandum to India, Britain and even the United Nations. These people are betraying their own country,†he added.
“Its shameful that some who have no idea of the indian psyche comment as if they are experts on it. Actually if you have nothing to contribute you dont have to spew rubbish and show your utter ignorance. It may be wiser to keep your comments to yourself†– Lakshi.
Since when does a commentator need to be an expert on indian psyche to be entitled to comment on Hindraf in this blog?
When one finds another poster’s comments “rubbish†there are two ways to deal with the annoyance : one is to skip, and ignore it, two, to contradict and expose the superficiality or irrelevance of the comment/message, without the need to either attack the messenger personally or proffer advice to anyone to keep his comments to himself! Isn’t that reacting a trifle emotionally rather than objectively to issues discussed?
It has to be borne in mind that what is rubbish to some is enlightenment to others and that is why the raison de etre of blog forums to provide avenue for expression and sometimes clash of a contrariety of thoughts.
Even a fool uttering rubbish should not be muzzled.
That is the foundation of Freedom of Expression and Speech, and this is how its chief advocate John Stuart Mill articulates it (Quote) “ If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind…..For if the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth : if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth produced by its collision with error…†Source : Mill’s treatise –“On Libertyâ€Â.
No offence intended but I ask you : how can we not diminish our own position to reclaim our right to Freedom of Speech from a government inimical and suspicious of such expression when we cannot even accord to our own fellow bloggers and commentators in this space this right on grounds that he “spews rubbish and utter ignorance”?
I’ve been seeing and watching the local medias TV1-3, NST, BH, UM, The Star etc…trying to create racial tension in Malayisa. They should report the correct things if not shouldn’t report anything, just messing up and make it worst.
Their role has been taken by some true malaysian bloggers who really cares about harmony and equality among races to bring Malaysia towards pinacle.
The stupid local medias should learn from them….but irony is they wouldn’t because they’re STUPID.
So fellow Malaysia be stupid (with apology) by reading and watching the stupid local medias.
IS another RALLY required to boycott all the stupid bias local medias?
To all the ‘stupid groups’ out there..why you all provoke peace loving Malaysian citizens to leave all their daily chores to come to street to get tear gas and chemical-laced water ah?
The PM said that there has never been a Indian-Malay problem before. Not entirely accurate because he forgot Kampung Medan.
The fact forgot about Kampung Medan and the inaccurate way he phrase even a partial truth shows exactly where this PM really is. His mediocrity shines loud and clear.
UMNO rightwinger have wasted the resources of this country and its not about oil, money but also the strong foundations of institutions and traditions we had. The UMNO ultra formula as led by Dr. M while it created things also eroded things. That is why our growth and progress is illusory.
Frankly, I do think Badawi want to make good but he don’t get it starting with his SIL.
Reading this morning issue of the The Star almost made my blood pressure shoots up. As usual the whole BN (from top to bottom) is in a denial mode.
The headline :Abdullah slams Hindraf over allegations
So basically this guy is saying that there is NO discrimination against the Indians? If the NEP is not discriminatory enough, then i really have no iota of an idea what it is!
The article then went on to state “……Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi tore into the Hindu Rights Action Force (Hindraf) yesterday, saying that it is spreading blatant lies with the intention of arousing hatred among multiracial Malaysians and sparking racial clashes.”
If there is to be any clashes, it will have to be initiated from the BN side. Again, if there is NO firm affirmative measures to acknowledge (observe that i haven’t even started to emphasize on the eradication of poverty of the Indians yet), then there will be clashes on the streets of Malaysia. Doesn’t these people in the Govt realize that oppressed people will go to any length to be free? To be free of poverty, to be free of discrimination.
I am rarely angry but today i am really angry. 24 million Malaysians and we have this guy as our PM? What rubbish!!!
Let the UN, US, EC, India, etc know the systematic discrimination applied by the BN on all non Malays who helped this country achieve independence. Taking people for a ride or taxing them to hell and using those taxes lopsidedly for the benefit of others cannot exactly be called a level playing field. You want to make noise about Iraq, Palestine, Bosnia etc while your local DPM literally gets away with blowing up people and the BN in general cheats in an electoral system designed to keep it in power forever so that it can ransack this country…..30 years of trying to speak softly softly is over….in the global village……all the villagers have the right to know…in today’s world…..you cannot run nor hide…..and Malaysia must face up to this scrutiny unless it wants to be a North Korea
APARTHEID POLICY is here to stay in MALAYSIA…!!
Like it OR Not, that is Your Problem, Not UMNOputras’
problem…!!
SORRY, You guys have to help yourselves man…??!!!
Badawi and UMNO is now in a state of denial or negligence. He has forgotten Kampung Medan, or someone has not “told him the truth”.
His ears are sooo biggg with a vacuum in between them that the entire kampung medan flew into the left ear and out through the right one in a microsecond
Badawi said that HINDRAF is spreading blatant lies with the intention of arousing hatred among multiracial Malaysians and sparking racial clashes. Dear Mr Badawi, UMNO is to be blamed in starting and proliferating hatred among multiracial Malaysians and sparking racial clashes through its NEP and racial policies!! HINDRAF is merely reacting to the problems created by UMNO, just as other members of civil society.
All the other races should rise up and support our Indian brethrens before it is too late.
To quote Martin Niemöller about Nazi Germany:
“In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.”
What do you expect? This man had not been elected. He was picked because he was submissive. He had been promoted to the level of incompitency. Not fit to be the PM.
Put the blame on Semi Value. Singlehandedly he brought the Indians to the present state of affairs. He owns ranches in Australia through money that Mahathir meant for the Indian community. His son is a “businessman” which in political parlance means the management of business built with other people’s money. Semi Value knows the psyche of the Indian, and he has exploited it to the full. It’s unfortunate that there have been no alternatives, and that each potential Indian leader prefers to worry about their own rice bowl instead of thinking for the community.
Don’t blame others. Blame yourselves for thinking that one fine day, Semi Value will deliver the goodies to the Indian community.
“how can we not diminish our own position to reclaim our right to Freedom of Speech from a government inimical and suspicious of such expression when we cannot even accord to our own fellow bloggers and commentators in this space this right on grounds that he “spews rubbish and utter ignorance� Jeffrey
Surely everybody has a right to express his or her views here. However, the right to free speech should rightly include others’ right to comment on the views expressed here. If some of views are rubbish and filled with ignorance, they should rightly be labelled so.
Oh sure, by all means pls investigate inciendary statements but be fair. When any malay leader makes such comments and statements, y is it a “no issue”? after all, we all pay taxes. we are citizens. we are using our right to question. Who is Ali Rustam? is this Malaysia or Alirustamsia? Shall we stop paying taxes to teach the governament a lesson? what’s the lesson? that we are part n parcel of this potentially great country. if 35% of the population decides to stop paying taxes… what is the repercussion? we should ask UMNO. let them put 35% of the population behind bars which is impossible anyway cos the prisons are full of indians who don’t know where to start helping themselves. we are not asking much. Jus fairness, equal treatment so we can better ourselves. The malays make a very big deal about being here first. Well the 1st real humans sprang out of africa (according to known scientific study).. does that make them masters of the earth? pls have ur little brain examined. when Malaysia took a big stand against apartheid in Sth Africa i laughed my head off b’cos the bloody hypocrites were doing it right here albeit in a very cunning n shrewd manner. then they opposed violence against the peaceful protests by the monks in Burma…so y r they using force here? Hindraf rally was peaceful..that is plain to all. lets be strong n fair..stop buying gov owned dailies. ask a few questions..how many petronas stations owned by non-malays. lets go for affirmative action. i denounce violence. lets be smart. we give business to our own businesses. if the gov wants to hoodwink us lets use our brains. i urge anyone who feels they have been unfairly treated to take a lawsuit against the gov. i urge all fair minded lawyers to help us fight these cases in court without thot for monetary reward. we can do this. we should thank Bersih n Hindraf for spearing our fat butts so that we can make a difference for our children n for this potentially great nation to truly become great. Religion is the skin, Humanity is the soul.
To all Malaysians, Chinese, Indian, Kadazan, Iban, etc. Please read the RUKUNEGARA in whole and see what is going on is right. They claimed to “membina sebuah masyarakat yang ADIL” in the Rukunegara decades back, but till today, is everything ADIL?????
I am saying, “the more you hated to become, you become”, same analogy from “the Secret”.
This is exactly what this UMNO led government has become. This government hated the Zionist of the Middle East for blatantly oppressing the minority -the Palestinian, now this very same government is behaving exactly like the Zionist of the Middle East, thus becoming the Zionist of the East, oppressing and marginalizing the Indians in Malaysia.
Basing on the rhetoric in today’s mainstream papers, the day will come when Hindraf will be labeled a terrorist group and will have the gestapo styled ‘ISA’ book thrown at them and be left to rot behind bars and shackled till kingdom come.
like godfather said, and I am surprised many still refused to see the source of the problems of the Indian Community. ONE man, and you all know it. Whatever shares that were meant for the community were shanghai-ed by him and his cronies. He should be the begining of your demands for fairness. You add in religion and if I am not one of you, what would I say? To an extent, the community should also ‘control’ the siting of places of worship, not any where without giving a damn to traffic movements along main roads and congested locations. Come festive time, it certainly becomes a problem to others. In this aspects, we should all talk about helping the have-nots, no matter who they may be! We all agreed that extremism of any form or faith is no no . not only in multi-culture society but in any society for that matter. We all know that the current ‘leadership’ is striving hard to propogate this divide, a programme which they had started intentively since some 20 years ago. I believe , had NEP be implemented sincerely, many Malaysians would not be so hard in their criticism. They are angry because, it is hi-jacked by the BN to benefit those connected to it.!
For people like Rustam ‘Eleanor Roosevelt ‘had stated it very clearly and I quote ” where after all do universal human rights begin? In small places close to home, so close and so small that they cannot be seen on any maps of the world. Unless these rights have meaning there, they have little meaning elsewhere.”
Perhaps they need to see Hindraf in this light.
telu,
haha how do you know we all pay taxes. I feel that chinese and indians have to pay, but when it comes to malays, they will close one eye, give extensions etc. Negotiable mah! Or as they say in Indonesia, Bisa Pak! Semua pun Bisa!
I google and able to find someone else photo gallery (163 pictures) of the peaceful march and brutal police force.
Here it is 135 pictures:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lifethrulens/HindrafPeacefulAssembly
you may click “slide show” to have better viewing.
and here too is 35 pictures:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lifethrulens/HINDRAFPeacefulAssembly2
‘NEP’, to AAB and All his cronies and UMNOputras, is A
NORM and nothing is wrong in its implementation…!!
Why MUST so many of YOU make such Big Noise to
Mr. Brown in UK, to USA , to India and worse still to
UN…??!!
You know, we are very fair and treat all of YOU very
EQUAL, do you know that… my beloved fellow citizens??
We all LOVEEEE YOUUUU…!!
Please work harder and contribute MORE to the country
so that MORE UMNOputras can enjoy the FRUITS of
SUCCESS in this Country. And You better be SLAVES
ma… as We are the MASTERS of this country… Do you
know that..and Do I need to repeat the statement..??
Of course NOT as YOU do not have hearing problem like
AAB does even though he has got BIGG EARRRs…!!
AAB and Umno should be happy – Malaysia is global and in the news (TIME, Vol. 170, No. 23, December 10, 2007).
Visit
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1688891,00.html
Malaysia’s Identity Crisis
By HANNAH BEECH/KUALA LUMPUR
As an Indian, I am of the opinion that Hindraf has stretched the truth in a number of instances in the letter which many right thinking Indians will reject. In all likelihood many of the Indians who took part in the rally may not be aware of some of the contents in the letter to British PM.
Nevertheless, the matter was badly handled by the Malaysian authorities. For instance, the PM refusal to meet them when they went to hand over the memorandum at Putrajaya or at least providing a response to the memorandum. PM could have asked Hindraf to substantiate and verify the issues and allegations in the memorandum submitted to him. Among issues is the allegation that police refused to investigate into the deaths of Indians in Kg Medan (any incident should be investigated as a matter of principle and also to appease aggrieved parties); the truth to one person being killed in police custody every fortnight of which 60% claimed to be Indian victims; or a Hindu temple being demolished in every three weeks. I do not know if these allegations by Hindraf are true. All these issues can be easily verified and the truth the matter can be easily ascertained. If Hindraf’s allegations are baseless, the strictest actions are warranted. But under the circumstances, it appears the authorities are clearly evading the issues.
Secondly, there are also many legitimate grouses to the Hindraf’s memorandum which I suspect would be the reason why many Indians had actually participated in the rally. For instance, the state of Tamil schools, the indiscriminate destruction of temples, the lack of access to higher education and entrepreneurial support and intake into government jobs are legitimate grievances. To the best of my knowledge, none of the rally participants whom I have personal acquaintance with had “ethic cleansing” as one of their reasons in their mind.
Thirdly, Malaysia has adequate resources to keep all races happy and eradicate poverty from the face of Malaysian map if not for mismanagement of resources (the negative externalities build into our economy) which is draining our wealth out of the country. The NEP should be continued albeit it should be not be race but on household income. After all, 60% are bumiputra households – better than the 30 % bumiputra equity sought by NEP. Otherwise the failure of NEP is for all to see – just make a trip to Kelantan and Terengganu.
UMNO must know this – racism begets racism and religious bigotry begets religious bigotry. UMNO must quickly embark on a paradigm shift as racism has become too cancerous of late to rid this disease once and for all, before it consumes everyone of us.
Ananthi,
A good letter, but somewhat misinformed in thinking that this was purely a Tamil Hindu thing. This is what the media reports. It’s also a misperception because the word “Hindu” in HINDRAF. But this is not reality. What started out as a Hindu thing eventually became an Indian thing, as Indian Christians, Sikhs, and others stood alongside Hindus. Also, what started out as a Tamil thing, also became as Indian thing as Punjabis, Telegus, Malayalees, etc also stood alongside Tamils. There was no distinction as to whether they came from the lowest classes or if they came from the middle class or even above. They stood as Indians for simple reason. They have all experienced discrimination.
They also walked alone, simply because they have been alone for 50 years. There was no intention of alienating fair-minded Malays, Chinese or others.
Now, having united as Indians for the first time in Malaysian history (something Samy was totally incapable of doing), the Indians are now ready to join fair-minded Malays, Chinese, and others, into making this Malaysian thing.
This time around it should not merely be trying to deny BN a 2/3 majority. It should be a total and utter defeat of BN at the polls.
“…the right to free speech should rightly include others’ right to comment on the views expressed here. If some of views are rubbish and filled with ignorance, they should rightly be labelled so.” limkamput
What he really wants to say is if commentators have something to say that differs from what he is saying, he has this ‘inalienable’ right to shout them down, calling them “stupid” and “moron” and other forms of name calling – without so much as a comment on the issue, like in this case. He is merely going for Jeffrey the maker of the statement and not the statement the maker has made. He has nothing to contribute. Zilch!
We have enough of these on youtube showing how BN MPs react to comments made by Opposition members. We don’t need to read more of it here. We certainly don’t need the likes of limkamput to tell us what freedom of speech is all about. It is not about shouting words like “stupid” or “bodoh” to drown out the real issues being discussed.
He asks what is wrong with labeling others who do not conform to his view? Now what do we label people like him?? An opinionated scumbag??
Limkampuuiiieet again??
Dark Horse, this is what he said to three different posters on another thread. Judge for yourself!
h”It is confirmed that you are more than stupid.”
“I suggest you go for grade one english class first before you come here.”
“Colonel my foot. You are not even qualified to be private.”
Three different posters who spoke on three different issues – and he has nothing to say about the issues only to call them names! That may be is his right but this blog is not meant for empty vessels like him with a huge ego, who has nothing much to say about the issues but about what he has to say about the party who speaks of the issues.
Jeffrey, thanks for JSM’s quote.
I hope Rustam Ali is reading instead of spewing threats & verbal inanities which are his trademarks.
It’d be nice to call Rustam’s bluff and see if UMNO can revoke Hindraf’s leaders citizenship.
It’d be nicer still to see UMNO Melaka lose all Indian votes in Melaka.
The nicest thing that can possibly happen is to let Rustam lose his pants and his seat in Melaka and his glorified position as UMNO Veep and Melaka CM. This guy has been spewing nonsense once too often.
DarkHorse,
Please be fair to limkamput, and welcome him back with open arms.
Perhaps unconsciously, your prejudice against him had colored your unfavorable comments, even though what he said was very sensible.
This time, limkamput did not disparage a particular messenger, in this case Jeffrey personally. He merely implied that anybody should be entitled to disagree with any message, and should be allowed to call a spade a spade.
The word ‘rubbish’ appeared 10 times so far. But they all referred to what messengers said were rubbish, not rubbish persons.
I agree that it is better to be precise as to which statements are rubbish. Ananthi is a scholar, and she attempted to give a fair and balanced view of Hindraf. And it did show that she had a broad shoulder to agree to support Hindraf despite disagreeing with some of its intentions and actions. It is not fair to just say rubbish to everything she said, because a lot of things she said made sense, otherwise YB Lim would not have published her email here.
Give limkamput a chance to air his views about the right to dissent frankly, Caucasian style.
Saying ‘rubbish’ does not deprive Ananthi of her right to continue to air her views. She might be able to defend her views if she knew exactly which statements were challenged as rubbish.
EARNEST,
You forgot to take your medications again!!
This is what …wrote in another thread. He is here only to bash up other commentators, giving out derogatory one-liners about the commentators instead of their comments.
Judge for yourself. This is what this limkampuiiiiet said to three other posters on another thread:
“It is confirmed that you are more than stupid.”
“I suggest you go for grade one english class first before you come here.”
“You are not even qualified to be private.”
NOTE: No discussion whatsoever of any issues raised by those who posted their comments. The only issue to him is his “intelligence” and the “stupidity” of others. Even when nobody engaged him.
We have enough of this type of behaviour in our Parliament with BN MPs shouting down Opposition members like YB Kit with shouts of “stupid” and “bodoh” without so much as discussing the issues. This is what this asshole is doing here on this blog. Shouting down or talking down or writing off readers here as “stupid” and calling them “morons” just because they have different views from his is his version of freedom of speech!
I agree with Dark Horse. The guy is indeed an “opinionated scumbag”. He likes to label others. So deal with this label we give to him. If you like to dish it out to others then you should be able to take what others dish it out to you!
Why don’t we just ignore the “opinionated scumbag”? Leave him alone. He’ll go away.
Did he post comments about what the Oxford scholar wrote here?? Nothing. Not a single reference to it. Instead he used the opportunity to bash Jeffrey for what Jeffrey wrote!
We should not be surprised if he labels her i.e. the Rhodes scholar at Oxford – the way he did the Cambridge scholar Lee Wang Yen as another example of “hollowed sophistication”.
This Limkampuiiiiet is bashing up on you on another thread Undergrad2 calling your comment “hollowed sophistication”.
If he were to call my writing “hollowed sophistication” like he called the PhD student from University of Cambridge, I’ll take that as a compliment!
So far he only called me “stupid” unfit even to be a private! That’s all he said in response to my comments on the issues. I’d be happy to meet him in person and ….
Foremostly and doubtlessly, the Malaysian Indian’s grouses irrefutable reflects UMNO’s apartheid policies retrospectively to the enactment of the NEP days which clearly forsaken the Indians.
The police brutalities are beyond a shadow of a virus’ doubt that predates us, and remedial measures such as the IPCMC seems elusive to date with the PM dallies about spouting off irrelevant pacifist ideologies “like using legal channels” in negating the misrule
of his administration wherein the legal channels he meant was comparable with “complaining Nazi to Hitler” when incessant letters were sent to varoius ministries including The Agong to no avail which prompted many Malaysians en masse took thier grouses to the streets having being humiliated every now and then by thier own government.
I have mix reaction to Ananthi’s email wherein she infer that in paragragh 3 among her inferences she wrote-
“When the discrimination against the Indians has been based on their group membership, suddenly we want them to put this aside, rise above it and say ‘let us fight for all the poor’?.”
Let’s look at the estimated figure of the Bersih rally claiming to have about 40,000 people hitting the streets whom many claimed are Malays reflected by the pictures taken from variety of sources and the BERSIH’s cause-for electoral reform, the enactment of IPCMC, calling for a restoration of an incorruptible judiciary among the urgent call brought upon to The Agong.
Vis-a-vis with the dominant of Malays whom outnumbered any other races of the estimated figure of 40,000 participation in the BERSIH as claimed to be nigh equilibrium with the Hindraf’s rally explicitly are mostly Indian walkers, then how many Indians took to the streets during BERSIH’s peace march?
Ananthi’s and many other Indians I beleive (of course), argues that the Indian problems are the Malaysian problems of whatever diversity of race but have they ever reasoned out the low participation of the Indian in other peace rallies such as BERSIH or they are just fighting for their own cause of creed and race. If that’s is the case, why complain about the deadpan of other races for the Indian cause?
Are not their Chinese counterpart under the NEP onslaught? And if the Chinese one day took to the streets will most Indians who hit the streets on Hindraf’s cause join the act selflessly sticking their necks out against their low turnout during the BERSIH rally or they will en masse re-enact their act again when some eloquent pundits shout “US2 millions per hit”(I mean per head).
EARNEST,
I would invite you to read the postings and review the context.
My posting was in response to what Lakshy said about “Its shameful that some who have no idea of the indian psyche comment as if they are experts on it. Actually if you have nothing to contribute you dont have to spew rubbish and show your utter ignorance. It may be wiser to keep your comments to yourself 
And Lakshi was not referring to what Ananthi wrote because if he had so intended he would not have said ” Actually if you have nothing to CONTRIBUTE you dont have to spew rubbish and show your utter ignorance”. The word “contribute” suggests that Lakshi meant a contributor and commenter of this blog.
Which is why I posted we should not curb another commenter’s freedom of speech and dismiss what he said as rubbish without even giving reasons why it was rubbish.
Lim Kam Put then came out to give me the same advice of what I gave to Lakshi suggesting that I curbed Lakshi’s freedom of speech.
Do you now get the context? :)
“In Batu Caves for instance, the protesters were literally boxed into the temple grounds and had water canons and tear gas shot at them. It looks totally unprovoked, except that I suppose it contravenes the court order obtained to ban the protest.” Ananthi
Yes. It does appear “totally unprovoked” like you said. But there must have been anarchists amidst the demonstrators who were out to get the attention of the public as if the public is unfamiliar with their problem, who have their own private agenda. Bricks were thrown at the police and skulls were cracked. The police were not smart in reacting to it the way they reacted – just the way these anarchists wanted them to. As a result images were splashed over TV screens all over the world.
As for the court order, the police did not need a court order. The Police Act required the demonstrators to first obtain a police permit which was not given.
The Police have been stupid in not not issuing the permit.
As undergrads we were able to deliver memorandums to the Soviet Embassy amidst strong police presence at the gates of the Embassy. Why shouldn’t the leaders of HINDRAF be allowed to orderly hand over their memorandum to the representatives of the U.K. High Commission at the gates??
Lim Kam Put then came out to give me the same advice of what I gave to Lakshi suggesting that I curbed Lakshi’s freedom of speech. — Jeffrey
Great minds think alike.
We need not agree with a person to support his right to speak out. Remember Voltaire?
The student leaders then were acting on behalf of the student body which comprised students of all races. In the case of HINDRAF they represent only one race and one religious denomination. The police have a genuine cause for concern as the racial and religious nature could be a spark for something more serious.
Ananthi was rightly concerned about this aspect:
“I don’t like that Hindraf has made this a Hindu issue – I think introducing religion into an already racially charged atmosphere is a very incendiary thing.”
The Police should have issued a police permit and then provide a strong presence like they always did when student leaders presented their petition to the Soviet officials at the gates of their Embassy.
If the situation had got out control or were allowed to get out of control, then public sympathy would have been with the security forces had they acted promptly with crowd control measures like firing tear gas and water cannons to disperse the crowd.
Right now the police and the Malaysian government would have to deal with a situation they themselves created!
Yes, a demonstration about the marginalization of the Indians rapidly deteriorated to issues of public order which is a police matter. It is to be expected they now refer to the Internal Security Act.
We cannot now be sure about who created what situation and when.
“Give limkamput a chance to air his views about the right to dissent” EARNEST
We should not give opinionated scumbags like him who could not receive what he dishes out to readers. Already it is very irritating to have to read his skewed nonsensical comments on issues whenever he chose to do so (but mostly not) intermingled as it always is with his tirade.
In any case you are barking up the wrong tree. He has been bashing readers for talking rubbish, talking cock and being a moron. Let’s see him take the same abuse he gives to others.
You call that the right of others to dissent. We call that our right to put him back where he belongs – in the rubbish bin.
“…he right to free speech should rightly include others’ right to comment on the views expressed here. If some of views are rubbish and filled with ignorance, they should rightly be labelled so.”
Somebody needs to teach this Kg. Attap brat some civility since he clearly does not understand the meaning of the word.
Sorry posted this in the wrong thread. Should have posted it here.
When one is constipated, one knows what medication or traditional remedies to take to help evacuate the blockage. But one must know where to go to do it. Presumably it is to the toilet bowl. Hence my comment to the kid is to deliver his “sh1t†to the right place.
There is no need to comment if he has nothing to say or to contribute. Thats what he should learn. Thats also why I refer to him as being constipated! He probably sees himself coming to your level as he seems to adore you. Or are you the same person using different nicks?
Who you talking about?
One definition, and I am sure there are many:-
[E]thnic cleansing is a well-defined policy of a particular group of persons to systematically eliminate another group from a given territory on the basis of religious, ethnic or national origin. Such a policy involves violence and is very often connected with military operations. It is to be achieved by all possible means, from discrimination to extermination, and entails violations of human rights and international humanitarian law.”[3]
Does that sound even the vaguest bit familiar? See it happening anywhere nearby?
What about calls for “balik India or balik china”? And what about the Moorthy and Revathi and many other such cases? And temple destruction in “commando” style? Kampung Medan? Would they qualify?
I wonder whether there is enough discrimination occuring in boleh-land for one to call it discrimination. You try being an Indian Lady with excellent qualifications looking for a job. Perhaps only then you can begin to fathom the extent of discrimination. We are treated as a sub-sub class!
Meritocracy? Got meh in la-la land? Look at the private companies, almost all run by non-malays. But when it comes to GLC’s all run by one race? In private sector you climb up mainly through performance. How did these guys climb up the ladder in the GLC’s? Tried and tested ah? May explain the mediocre and loss making performance of the GLC’s.
Meritocracy in education and university intake? Who you trying to kid? It is all discrimination.
Got any violence or not when they forcibly destroy temples? I wonder why the many squatter areas and Indon squatter areas are not destroyed in similar fashion? Perhaps cos got pay protection money to police and Immigration!
When it comes to election time, all these squatter areas got electricity and piped later supply. You tell me which squatter area does not have astro/electricity/piped water today?
But Indians displaced from estates dont get their rights protected. Marginalisation? When a company decides to sell its estates for commercial development, they are obligated to provide for their workers. But who has done this for the indian workers who were living on estates and played a vital role in developing this nation? Sub-sub class mah…..no need to do anything.
Minimum wage for plantation………..less than 400 ringgit. How many of you go through that in a couple of days? And these people who have brought development and wealth to you have to feed a family of 4 or more for a month. I hope you sleep well.
And to say that one is better off in Malaysia than in India is real katak di bawah tempurung mentality that can only come from la-la land’s supposed “leaders” and their followers, many of whom contribute to this site too!
..//.Great minds think alike..// – diversionary of issue at hand. :)
Poor Earnest is lost, isn’t he?
indulging in elegant silence.
A term coined by non-other than Musa Hitam. He (Musa) must be regretting it now.
Even if is is authentic, as in my case?
Welcome back EARNEST – since when have you been a cross-dresser??
There are lots of double standards here now. Some high-priest of civility is practising selective prosecution. Others can not disparage the messengers, his accomplices can, and with impunity. I have been an observer, reading and not writing. But I think things are getting out of hands now, and I need to give them a piece of my mind. It is my social and moral responsibility to do so.
I do not know who EARNEST is, but I support him. I am a fair minded individual with a strong Catholic background.
Which is why “they” will not prosecute anyone under the Sedition Act unless it is an isolated and clear-cut incident. They can charge us with unlawful assembly, but the courts will probably impose a small fine if you plead guilty. If you plead not guilty, the court will let you go on a small bail amount, and you can spend years waiting for your chance to be heard in open court.
They may detain us under the ISA, but this would merely inflame the silent majority, and would inevitably bring international fame to Bolehland, something which they will try to avoid, particularly as several bilateral treaties are still unsigned.
Yea, things are getting out of hands, suddenly unheard of new visitors in this blog emerging out of nothingness, one after another, self proclaiming to be reading and not writing in this blog unless when fair minded duty requires to support another relatively newcomer that is not known to him, and quoting religious credentials to support all claims, yea, things are getting stranger and stranger in this blog, I would say.
Tai Lo Chin,
I am a keen observer. Jeffrey, Tai Lo Chin, Colonel and probably Undergrad2 are one and the same person. Truth is stranger than fiction.
Tai Lo Chin is suspicious because he practises multiple-masquerades. Please do not question my faith. It is a sensitive issue.
Tai Lo Chin means BIG CON-MAN or SWINDLER in Chinese.
Hello, everybody, your attention please. Do not get con by such a person who has already revealed his real intention inadvertantly. His presence will defile this respectable space.
Jeffrey, Tai Lo Chin, Colonel and probably Undergrad2 are one and the same person and going by your logic Limkamput, Earnest, Daphne and probably Lakshy are also one and same person, so it is only two persons are quarrelling in this blog. LOL
Is it fairminded to say things like this of my name?
GS,
Undergrad2
Undergrad2: Please read the letter below before making further statements.
PRESS RELEASE :Inquiry needed into why innocent devotees affected by police action at Batu Caves Murugan Temple on Sunday, 25th November 2007
The Malaysia Hindu Sangam calls for an urgent and independent inquiry into the events at Batu Caves in the early hours of Sunday, 25th November 2007. Many people have complained to the Sangam that they were caught up in police action against the HINDRAF Rally when all they were doing was attending a religious ceremony in the Batu Caves temple.
Saturday night, 24th November 2007 was a special celebration for many Tamil Hindus. It was the night of Karthikai Deepam, a festival of lights of special significance to Tamils. Many celebrate it as a commemoration to Lord Arumugam, also known as Murugan or Karthikeyan, whose 6 faces were united by his mother Goddess Shakthi on the Karthikai Deepam day. Hence, devotees flock to the temples devoted to Lord Muruga that night and one such temple is of course the world famous Batu Caves temple in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.
Many devotees, having celebrated the festival, were spending the night in the Temple grounds before leaving for home the next day. Imagine their shock when in the wee hours of the morning, they were greeted by tear gas and water cannon and by a massive police presence alleging they were involved in an illegal assembly.
An urgent and independent inquiry must immediately be done to investigate how innocent devotees gathered within a place of worship were subjected to tear gas and chemical laced water cannon. The Hindu Sangam also calls on the Public Prosecutor to withdraw all charges against the devotees at the temple. Gathering at a temple for a religious ceremony cannot be deemed an illegal assembly under any circumstances.
Yours in service,
Datuk A Vaithilingam PJN, SSA, AMN, ASA, PJK
President
Malaysia Hindu Sangam
Hi Lakshy, thats y i said 35%, the remainder 65% is of course the great people with the great religion who are chosen to lead us all to hell.
my thots on ethnic cleansing claim by Hindraf. there have been many spurious conversions of late, usually those who are less educated or in a deplorable condition or even in an incapacitated condition who seem to suffer this fate. for a poor family, say single mother with a number of children, if a welfare group comes acalling and says “hey u n ur kids convert, jus change ur name in ur IC we will give u RM300 monthly” u think she wont do it.. what more with free goodies for raya n haji not to mention further help thru all kinds of agencies and gov linked charities. whose money? our taxes my fren. many in this country may consider conversion jus to help themselves out of a tight situation. others do it for “love”. LOL he/she loves u or he/she loves the fact that u r becoming muslim? first n foremost, each religious body is not doing enough for these people n the hindus r foremost (which could also be due to a large number of them being too poor to help themselves). I beg rich hindus to set-up a body to channel wealth and help to their poorer kin. i beg them to do it systematically and to preach about this great religion which is all about tolerance and humility. make each temple a focal point for the spread of good teaching and aid to the poor of any race or religion because for hindus “every river leads to the same sea, every path to the same mountain”. Use your vote, those u don’t appreciate – kick out!
University students need to unite and speak out for freedom to vote and to join or set-up societies or political parties. you guys have the brains.. i meant those who actually did well.. not some of those basket-cases that may not even have passed “O”level exams. come out of your shells. the gov is afraid of you which is why they have shut u down. do not be afraid. Dec 9 be there. this is not a hindu issue, or indian issue or a minority issue. this is about injustice. this is about an individual’s rights and this is about our self-respect.
The Malay culture is beautiful in its hospitality and gentleness. but power, religion and arrogance have led this good people to destruction. Malaysia will have a very violent future if these policies continue because even the chinese are finding themselves struggling. licenses and contracts are being given to those who have no merit. any business that a malay cannot do is “haram” or becoming so.
“An urgent and independent inquiry must immediately be done to investigate how innocent devotees gathered within a place of worship were subjected to tear gas and chemical laced water cannon. The Hindu Sangam also calls on the Public Prosecutor to withdraw all charges against the devotees at the temple. Gathering at a temple for a religious ceremony cannot be deemed an illegal assembly under any circumstances.”
An independent inquiry would help identify the causes. It would help rebut claims that the HINDRAF demonstrations, for example, were politically driven. It would help identify the anarchists be they plainclothes policemen or gangster elements out to exploit the situation for themselves. It would help confirm that innocent devotees were caught in the fray. Or if it was just an issue of law and order badly handled.
But charging devotees (if one is to assume the characterization here as being accurate) is ridiculous.
Hi Uncle
What Hindraf did is correct. First place why Permit was not issued for peaceful gathering.
Youth M Hashmuddin told the youth to burn as much of Isreal Flag when Isreal and lebanon war
Khairy When Rice was here he and the youth burn US Flag as youth they should not teach violance to the Youth.
Where was this BN crooks
No Permit, No tear Gas, No Chemical Gas,No canon, No baton
Why Indians GATHERING all Gas was used and the Police treated brutal attack on Indians. Tell the ediots,and God is Great the world media was covering and VIDEO AND PHOTOGRAPH told the truth and spoke.
Dato Sri Samy should inform the crooks to shut their mouth and feedback to them let PM AND DPM to handle.if he got guts.
I was dispointed with some of the Indians was not supporting whereby the Lawyers gave the life in and out jail for the Indians and not forgeting the other hero’s was jail also fighting for 2.5 million Indians. Some of the Indians are ungrateful because they only speak under the skirt
Time to wake up. PM should call for the meeting with the Lawyers. For them Indians is cheap,God is watching and they will pay heavy penalty for this.
The next move by the Indians to show their disgust should be to quit MIC. Join Keadilan or DAP. Joining Keadilan in large numbers will make it a Malaysian party. Joining DAP will mean that DAP is no longer a mainly Chinese party.
Lets show the way and move away from racebased politics. Lets show that we can do it.
I guarantee you that this will bring MIC down on its knees where it belongs!
Lakshy is right! MIC no longer serve any purpose in bringing security and prosperity to the Malaysian Indian community, so why don’t all members “jump the fence” and join Keadilan or DAP to fight for their rights. I think they have seen enough what MIC can do for them!!
Hindraf was a small insignificant body next to nothing. But to the oppressed and the deprived they have no better shelter than this. For 50 years, while their livelihood been eroded, their self proclaimed Guardians have been side stepping them, all too busy working for personal gains.
That’s why Hindraf rise to the occasion. Providing an alternative channel for the people to air their grievances. Hindraf may have dragged on the colossal baggage of Religion and past British colonialism into the picture. But if not, how else are you able to drum up the support from the grassroot, and how else to attract such international attention. Good strategy and good planning.
AAB and gang, be real and sincere about it. You are expressing your Anger now. Calling Indian ungrateful! Some idiot even calling for stripping off citizenships from the people. Furthermore, threats of ISA has been thrown around. While denying the wrongs Hindraf has accused you. You are actually committing yet more Human Rights violation. Please stop bullying the people who try to voice out their grievances. More importantly must know why it started in the first place.
Salute to you Hindraf.
And regrettable to say, there is no its equivalent of CHINRAF. For Chinaman are too Kia See.
fish_talk,
One Chinese activist lost his citizenship championing the cause of Chinese education, perhaps too passionately to the Powers-that-be; the Chinese had even engaged a Queen Counsel with their own money to fight their cause perhaps before you were born, that is why you do not know about it. Ask your parents about it.
The Chinese has great sense of tolerance. But, do not forget, the Chinese word for tolerance, “ren” has the word knife on top of it. Do not underestimate and push the Chinaman too far. I do not mean you, but whoever.
Why the talk about the terms and word ‘Hindu’ when things are shifting towards another direction. UMNO is slowly fanning the issue into a racial agenda. The claims by HINDRAF are being thrown into the drain with rising fire of racism. Another attempt by the UMNO people to scare the nons. Its high time that the Malays understand that HINDRAF has no any ill intention against the Malay people. The Malays must understand (includingthose UMNO supporters) that they are still far lagging in their economic, education and social status compared to many who rub shoulders with the UMNO Majlis Tertinggi. HINDRAF had submitted numerous letters and memorandums to the government and its officials in various departments, and nobody responded to any of the claims by HINDRAF. The Malays are angry that HINDRAF did not consult the Yang Di Pertuan Agung on this matter, but they must understand too, that copies of letters have been sent to many prominent and relevant government official to intervene. None of them did anything to counter check HINDRAF’s claim, because UMNO has never respected any race, other than Malay(and that too not all Malays).
Check this site, please : http://sharanyamanivannan.blogspot.com/2007/10/temple-demolitions-in-malaysia-hindrafs.html
Whatever tolerance being preached is just an eyewash by UMNO led coalition. MIC, GERAKAN and MCA are nothing but shadows that exist only when UMNO on the switches. Apart of that they are mere puppets, dead puppets!!!. I dont support every motion by HINDRAF, but I feel there are things that government should begin to study, especially the Kampung Medan incident and police brutality in the lockups.
I have nothing…
I have nothing against mortars and bricks
that made the temples, mosques and churches;
I have nothing against man of all races and relgions
that out of their beliefs each came out unique;
I have nothing against politicians
that made up stories of fancy fantasies and myths;
I have nothing against Malays, Chinese, Indians or whatever
that made up this beautiful country called Malaysia;
but
I am all out against every hypocrite of all races
that tore the heart of unified mankind in Malaysia
and sliced their thoughts unto fire called racism
just to plunder the wealth and power
though of temporal nature in this eternal play.
author : cyclopseven
for your eyes only :
http://sharanyamanivannan.blogspot.com/2007/12/farish-noor-tale-of-two-templed.html
First it was May 13 where the Malays clash with the Chinese, then the Sentosa incident where Malays clash with the Indians. Now tell me who is the trouble maker! Who is driving who up the wall?