Malaysian Ministers must get rid of the “frog in coconut shell” mentality and learn the first basic rule of global society — we must accept and withstand international scrutiny of national policies in the same way Malaysian leaders castigate injustices of other countries like the Palestinian and Iraq issues.
Only yesterday, the Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi spoke up for the Palestinians and criticized oppressive Israeli policies — and rightly so. Similarly, with the frequent Malaysian government criticisms of United States policy in Iraq.
However, Malaysian leaders cannot demand double-standards in international society where they exercise the right to criticize unfair policies of foreign governments like the hot-button Palestinian and Iraq issues and yet claim the privilege of being spared from international scrutiny by foreign governments and leaders on Malaysian events and developments.
This is why the outburst of the Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department, Datuk Seri Nazri Aziz on Wednesday telling off the Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M. Karunanidhi to “butt out” and not to interfere in Malaysian internal affairs for the Tamil Nadu leader’s comments on Sunday’s Hindraf demonstration is so ridiculous and out-of-place, as if the Malaysian government is insisting on the unilateral special rights of not being subject to any international scrutiny for its national policies while enjoying the liberty to speak out against international injustices like those affecting the Palestinians and Iraqis.
Nazri’s outburst at Karunanidhi’s call to the Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to take immediate and appropriate action to end the “sufferings and bad treatment” of Tamils in Malaysia was given extensive coverage in the Indian media — just like the subsequent Karunanidhi’s reaction to Nazri’s outburst.
For instance, the Calcutta Telegraph in its report headlined “Malaysian courtesy: Lay off – Karunanidhi’s plea on Tamil rights sparks war of words” said:
Karunanidhi today said it was his “duty” to “defend” Tamils and he was prepared to accept any “punishment” for doing so.
Told about the comments of Aziz, the chief minister said: “If there is any punishment for doing the duty, I am prepared to accept it.”
Karunanidhi pointed out that he did not criticise the Malaysian government. “I don’t want to reply to his (Aziz’s) remarks. I don’t want to get into a tit for tat. It is my duty to defend Tamils.”
The Calcutta Telegraph also reported on the Indian Parliament scene on the Sunday Hindraf demonstration in Kuala Lumpur –
Today, MPs from Tamil Nadu disrupted both Houses of Parliament, demanding that New Delhi pressure Kuala Lumpur to protect ethnic Indians there.
Some MPs raised slogans against Malaysia and demanded the Indian foreign minister make a statement on the issue, forcing proceedings in the Lok Sabha to be suspended briefly.
“We have expressed our concern over the condition of Indian-origin Tamils in Malaysia,” said CPI leader D. Raja, who hails from Tamil Nadu.
“They are subjected to repression and discrimination. They are fighting for equality with other sections of Malaysian people.”
The Economic Times of India today also reported the “uproar” in the Indian Parliament caused by Nazri’s response to Karunanidhi.
It said Nazri’s remarks “created a ruckus in Parliament, with parliamentarians demanding that the government, which has remained silent on the matter, take up the issue with Kuala Lumpur.”
It reported:
Lok Sabha members from Tamil Nadu, cutting across party lines, on Thursday came out in full force to denounce the reported discrimination of ethnic Indians. Their noisy protest, which also got support from some other sections of the House, prompted the Speaker to adjourn the proceedings for half an hour.
Led by Congress member SK Kharaventhan, the agitated MPs spoke about purported ethnic discrimination against Indians, mostly people of Tamil origin, in Malaysia, and demanded that New Delhi address this issue immediately. As the members urged the central government to take steps to “protect” the ethnic Indians in Malaysia, Speaker Somnath Chatterjee, cautious of the diplomatic sensitivity involved in the matter, asked them not to say anything that would affect relations with the friendly country.
As their protest gained momentum, some members from the BJP benches were heard referring to the alleged demolition of temples in Malaysia. On his part, the Speaker ordered some reference to the reported police attack on the Indians. “We are a very responsible democracy. We don’t discuss… any other country in such a manner,” he said. ..
In the Rajya Sabha, too, Tamil Nadu MPs registered their protest, prompting deputy chairman K Rahman Khan to come out with an assurance that the government would definitely take note of it.
The BJP asked the government to raise the issue before the UN and the Commonwealth while the CPI expressed concern over “discrimination and repression’ of people of Indian origin.”
The Malaysian Government and Cabinet must be mindful of these international repercussions which must be fully taken into account in any decisions taken by the government and police in a proper handling of the Hindraf demonstration to ensure that they can withstand international scrutiny from all viewpoints whether nation-building policies or international best practices on democracy and human rights.
Nazri the Loud Mouth is just exercising his Bumiputera rights as Prince of the Earth and not just as Putera Malaysia.
Yea, Small fry like Tamil Nadu CM can butt out but for ppl like BUsh and USA they kowtow.
I would love to see Nazri the Loud Mouth minus the brain do they same on Bushy guy.
YB Lim, please stop calling others names during parliament meetings. Be the bigger person and just smile back at them.
Just like boleh defending for the Islamic communities (such as Pakistan should in the Commonwealth), India has its rights to defend the relatives in Malaysia. I think China should learn from India, as India made its voice so timely.
actually YB Nazri should be disciplined by PM for being the spokeperson of the government when he is in no position to do so in the first place.
if the indian government should pursue this matter, YB Nazri will be in deep trouble for starting the fire… not really wise if the other country has a nuclear weapon.
Malaysian government officials might want to watch their step. India is one of the fastest growing giants not only in Asia but also the whole word. Malaysia’s trade ties with India is critical and jeopardising the relationship is the last thing the Malaysian government wants to do.
And of course, we don’t need any reminded that India is a nuclear power, one of very few and boasts the second largest army in the world, second only to China. Technically speaking, a full fledged row with Malaysia would last half a day, with the military capabilities of India including their huge array of fighter planes, navy vessels, submarines et al.
But of course, Malaysian politicians like Nazri doesnt think twice before opening his reckless mouth.
Poor Samy Vellu. I thot he just managed to get some projects or MOU with the Tamil NAdu and Indian government. Is Nazri fixing Samy by his outburst.
BTW,who are the 2 million Indians with Nazri. I guess Zunar can comeup with a nice cartoon.
Nazri is really the “katak di bawah tempurong” himself. He thinks he is the all-mighty in Malaysia because whatever nonsense he has been spouting has gone uncorrected by our slumbering Bodohwi. Rightly so that he is in no position at all to speak for the Malaysian Govt. He can’t even get his facts right on this own portfolio.
Should anything happen to the Chinese, e.g. such as another recurrence of the May 13 incident which has been so liberally brandished as a threat in the UMNO assemblies by show of the keris, I don’t think that the Chinese Govt will keep quiet. It was in the international news some time ago that when the minority Chinese were persecuted in a particular part of Africa, the Chinese Govt took steps to remove these people from the country. They also went to the rescue of the Indonesian Chinese when there was an ethnic-cleansing. Of course, we do hope that such incidences will not occur in generally peaceful Malaysia, but I strongly think that the Chinese will not be left unprotected and persecuted in drastic situations, especially now with global connectivity where nothing can be hidden. Don’t forget, like the Indians, the Chinese too still have many relatives abroad. The overseas Chinese had helped the mainland Chinese in their darkest period.
So I would suggest that the Malaysian powers-that-be sit up and realise that they are not living in a shell, that they can do what they like to the minorities. Of course, there will be those deluded “Prince of the Earth” beings (a status usurped from the Orang Asli) who will tell us to “balik Cina” or “balik India” as we have often been told, but they forget – we have our legitimate rights to be here on this land as we played a part in the country’s independence and our forefathers had helped toil the soil to make Malaysia what it is today. Nobody can deny our contribution, except those who are living in slumberland. We are still the minority who have contributed the largest sum to income tax.
Though I am an Malaysian Indian ,I do not know what India is all about. I have never even visited that country nor read their politics.
However I believe all countries must play not only my their own rules but also of international rules. Sometime back Minister Foo Ah Kiow stated children born out of wedlock will be labelled as anak luar nikah which means a’ bastard child’. Indeed the UN charter has special provision for a childs protection. Barisan never learns to respect the international norms.
29/11: UMNO sendiri lahir dari perhimpunan haram
Category: Articles Posted by: raja petra
GUEST COLUMNISTS
Dr Lo’lo’ bt Hj Mohd Ghazali
AJK PAS Pusat
Perhimpunan-perhimpunan menentang Malayan Union adalah menjadi penyebab kepada lahirnya Umno. Sejarah telah merakamkan bahawa setelah orang Melayu keluar beramai-ramai dan berdemonstrasi menentang Malayan Union, mereka telah berkumpul dan menubuhkan Umno. Sekiranya orang Melayu pada masa itu menunggu permit polis dari Kerajaan British nescaya Malayan Union tidak dapat dihalang dan Umno tidak akan wujud. Malaya akan tetap di bawah British.
Jadi demo dan himpunan rakyat untuk menyatakan ketidakpuasan hati adalah budaya kita sejak dulu, budaya Umno, budaya PAS, budaya NGO dan sebahagiaan mereka yang berprinsip dan bangun mewakili rakyat majoriti.
Mengapa Umno dengan tiada segan dan silu kerap kali mengungkapkan perkataan Perhimpunan Haram bagi melabel tindakan rakyat Malaysia berhimpun dan menyatakan sikap mereka? Adakah Umno “mengata dulang paku serpih� Sedangkan sudah berapa kali Umno, MCA dll NGO berdemo atas isu antarabangsa serta tempatan. Malah dalam filem Hati Malaya yang saya tonton video klip promosinya, dipaparkan sejarah rakyat yang celik dan berani bangun menentang kezaliman penjajah. Yang tidak mahu berdemo selain kerana keuzuran adalah mereka dari golongan pengampu, penakut dan dayus.
Malah di Kelantan himpunan anjuran Umno didalangi Annuar Musa dalam percubaan Umno untuk menabal sultan lain selain dari Sultan Kelantan yang ada sekarang. Mengapa Umno boleh melakukannya sedang orang lain tidak? Himpunan rakyat mencerminkn masyarakat madani. Kini dua hero rakyat lahir dari kegelapan Umno/BN. Hero dari Parlimen Cameron Highland YB S.K.Devamany dan YB dari Penang. Mereka sekurang-kurangnya meminta pimpinan Umno/BN melihat dan mengkaji mesej yang dihantar oleh para pen‘demo’ dan rakyat yang berhimpun, bukat mengugut.
Peristiwa 1946 dibahasa di DUN Kelantan
Hujah tentang demo dan himpunan menentang British di atas ini juga digunapakai oleh YB Nasaruddin Daud dalam Perbahasan Titah Sultan dalam Sidang Dewan Undangan Negeri Kelatan baru-baru ini. Ia telah menyebabkan wakil-wakil rakyat Umno seperti terkejut (sebab menafikan sejarah). Itulah sikap hipokrit dan tidak cerdiknya mereka. Berbagai-bagai alasan tidak cerdik telah cuba digunakan oleh wakil-wakil rakyat Umno bagi membenarkan sikap “double standard†mereka. Tidak hairanlah juga antara mereka ada seorang YB yang masih tidak cukup umur dan cukup akal. Masih duduk dalam khayalan zaman kanak-kanak, di mana kaki dan tangan jadi senjata bila kalah berhujah.
Hujah yang mengatakan Perhimpunan 1946 bukan perhimpunan haram kerana waktu itu tiada undang-undang adalah dangkal dan buta sejarah. Mana ada negara yang tiada undang-undang meskipun dijajah. Jika British menjajah, undang-undang yang digunapakai adalah undang-undang British, tapi datuk nenek kita dulu bangun berdemo dan berhimpun ramai-ramai untuk nyatakan perasaan. Kerana apa? Kerana penjajah atau pemerintah yang ada tidak mendengar dan menafikan keluhan dan ketidakpuasan hati rakyat.
Hujah yang menyatakan Demonstrasi sekarang ini tidak dibenarkan kerana ianya membawa kepada keganasan juga tidak berpijak dibumi nyata. Kalau sejarah 13 Mei yang dijadikan sandaran, ramai orang sudah tahu fakta sejarah bahawa yang menyebabkan peristiwa 13 Mei adalah kerana provokasi melampau dari penyokong-penyokong Umno dan faktor ketidakadilan sosial dan ekonomi pada masa tersebut. Selepas itu ’Bloody Sunday’ yang terkenal, mereka yang cedera parah adalah para demonstran kerana campur tangan dan provokasi polis. Peristiwa Batu Burok pula, bukan program demo tetapi ceramah di laman rumah individu yang tidak perlu permit. Banyak sudah ceramah diadakan di situ tanpa sebarang insiden. Jelas kepada kita, bahawa demo dan perhimpunan menjadi ganas hanya apabila berlaku campur tangan serta tindakan biadab pihak polis terhadap ahli perkumpulan. Apabila tiada campur tangan pihak polis, semua perhimpunan tersebut menjadi aman.
Hujah seterusnya, Perhimpunan tersebut menjadi haram kerana tiada permit (yakni bertentangan dengan undang-undang negara). Ia tiada permit kerana Umno/BN tidak mahu memberi permit tanpa alasan yang kukuh. Hanya kerana perhimpunan-perhimpunan ini merugikan Umno dari segi politik sahaja dan ia juga mendedahkan kebobrokan, kepincangan dan kemungkaran Umno dan BN kepada rakyat.
Harus diingat bahawa permit diberikan oleh Polis manakala Polis diletakkan di bawah Kementerian Dalam Negeri yang dikawal oleh Umno/BN. Sekiranya pihak polis menolak permit mana-mana pihak bererti ianya adalah penolakan dari Umno/BN.
Polis Adalah Alat Barisan Nasional Untuk Terus Berkuasa
Pihak Polis di Malaysia tidak lebih dari biro di dalam Umno bertanggungjawab mengekalkan kuasa Barisan Nasional di Malaysia. Mereka hanya mengikut arahan Umno dan bertindak dengan begitu rakus menggagalkan sesiapa sahaja yang dikhuatiri merugikan Barisan Nasional. Ini dibuktikan dalam soal siasat terhadap tahanan-tahanan ISA. Yang ditanyakan soalan-soalan politik dan pimpinan politik parti-parti selain BN, soalan-soalan tentang keselamatan negara langsung tidak popular.
Pihak Polis lebih sanggup menjalankan sekatan-sekatan jalan raya di dalam usaha menggagalkan perhimpunan rakyat dari berusaha mencegah jenayah. Tidak pernah lagi kita dengar polis menyuraikan himpunan Mat Rempit.
Dikala rakyat Malaysia hidup dalam ketakutan angkara penjenayah serta perogol. Sampai sekarang pembunuh kejam Nurin belum ditangkap, bgitu juga pembunuh Prissy, 9 tahun. Mengapa tidak dikerah seluruh kekuatan polis untuk menangani jenayah yang makin menjadi-jadi? Polis sanggup menumpukan tenaga dan usaha mereka ke arah menjayakan agenda politik Barisan Nasional, tapi tidak bersungguh untuk menjaga keselamatan rakyat.
Jelas kepada kita bahawa Polis Diraja Malaysia sudah hilang komitment mereka kepada rakyat Malaysia.
Kasihan rakyat Malaysia seolah-olah tiada tempat lagi untuk berteduh dan berlindung. Kerajaan BN hanya mahu melindungi kepentingan dan kekayaan kroni dan Umnoputra dan rakyat terpaksa bersusah payah dan menderita. Apabila rakyat bersuara tidak puas hati, Polis digunakan untuk bertindak kasar dan zalim kepada rakyat. Media juga sama, sanggup melacurkan habis etika kewartawanan mereka.
40% pegawai atasan boleh didakwa keranaa hidup mewah melebihi pendapatan, perlantikan hakim yang diatur melalui panggilan talifon, pesalah rasuah yang masih bergelar YB dalam DUN dan Parlimen, Jenayah yang sudah masuk dalam rumah dan kejiranan kita, harga barang dan sara hidup yang berlipat kali ganda naik, bangunan yang bocor dan runtuh. Rumah, masjid, surau, kuil rakyat yang diroboh oleh pihak penguasa atas nama pembangunan.
Saya tidak tahu bagaimanakah nasib anak-cucu serta keturunan saya selepas ini jika Umno/BN terus menipu, memerintah dan menghancurkan Malaysia. Sekarang rakyat mesti cepat bertindak dan lakukan apa yang betul bukan ikut nafsu yang hanya pentingkan keselesaan diri dan keluarga masing-masing sahaja.
“Of course, there will be those …. who will tell us to “balik Cina†or “balik India†as we have often been told, but they forget – we have our legitimate rights to be here on this land as we played a part in the country’s independence and our forefathers had helped toil the soil to make Malaysia what it is today.”
For the HINDRAF leaders to unashamedly solicit foreign intervention especially from India (as opposed to the United Nations a world body formed precisely for such a situation) in what is a domestic problem in a country they say they call home is not smart. It lays open for fresh accusations that their loyalties have been suspect and for good reasons! The Indians have only themselves to blame if the cry for “Balik Cina” is now replaced by a cry for “Balik India”.
Well its not getting any easier day by day to call Nazri With Names. I may be generalising this, as Nazri as an individual or he is holding a post as representattive. ‘ Brainless and Ruthless’.His remark to ‘ butt out ,. Has he miss out something. More shocking is how he is made to sit in a Dept which obviously needs a person of utmost wisdom and ‘ Intelligence ‘. Ooppp have i used the right word there. Yes i have!!!
How cunning and naive a person could be as an individual. Nazri’s remark as ‘ Crook ‘. As a Malaysian Citizen and Indian , who may have or may have not participated in Hindraf Rally,a person in the governing body like nazri branding follow Malaysian as ‘ crook ‘, is not any different than branding every malaysian a crook. It is acceptable for a layman to open his mouth an say utterly stupid things like this, but not a Minister who have been elected by people’s vote and power. The people who went to the street are the very same people who voted for the government isnt. Absolutely unforgivable and shocking.
Now he says that he stand by the 2 million indian. What good is that for ? Is is that he is refusing to know why and what this Hindraf Rally was ? What make him think that the rest of 2 million would like to spend another 50 years , exploited , downgrading to a 3 class society citizen ? Please I am being one of the 2 million Indian , don’t want Nazri to stand with the 2 million. Wake up Nazri, stop dreaming. It a good try to go into the good books.
not clever though, to the extent even my toes laughting over this …
It is not something which is impartial. whether it 1 Indian , 30,000 Indian or 2 Millions indian, the struggle and plea is the same. its a shamble.,, Nazri
BN gahmen is made up by a bunch of hypocrites, they always got they say and shut other people mouths one. Hey Nazri, tell people to butt out ah?
verbal-lash Says:
“Nazri is really the “katak di bawah tempurong†himself. He thinks he is the all-mighty in Malaysia..”
It so happens that having stayed in the vicinity of Padang Rengas for some years, I don’t happen to be impressed with the parochial attitude of some people in that place either. Is my “prejudice” getting vindicated?
All the while the Indians in Malaysia being look down by others Races;now we should respect the Hindraf ( Indian) because they may change the senario of Malaysia; if the demo is much earlier; our minister Kris will not show the Kris. Mind ro the Krisminister ; every begger has his own day.
india might have nuclear weapons to threaten malaysia.But wht i believe is the population is just enough to flood our country with their urine
Now, just wait for the Indian Press and Indian politicians to fire back nicely to Bad-awi’s releasing his hatchet man MoJo Baharom to demand compensation from the Hindraf rally! The former wants to retain his “Mr Nice” image nevertheless, like as if he could!
The Indian community in Malaysia is also victimized by MIC, the party which is suppose to protect its interests. The grredy and corrupted “leadership” has plundered the money of poor Indians in many scams such as Maika shares.
It is laughable that Samy Vellu thinks that the “hotline” he announced today can solve the community problems. He might as well use the reset button in his computer.
It is also laughable to see how Chan Kong Choy can say the worst is over for the PKFZ by just changing the corporate logo. MIC and MCA are not only mandurs and coolies to UMNO, but also court jesters.
It’s Apartheid, Says Poet who Fled Malaysia
22-yr-old Sharanya talks about the plight of Indians
HONG KONG: As a celebrated bilingual poet, Sharanya Manivannan, 22, knows the searing power of words. Yet, as an ethnic Indian-Sri Lankan who lived in Malaysia for 17 years  and fled to India last month to escape systematic racial harassment  she finds even the most powerful words hopelessly inadequate to describe the plight of Indians there.
“What is happening [to Indians] in Malaysia,†Sharanya told DNA from her Chennai home, “is nothing less than formal apartheid.â€Â
Strong words, particularly when you consider that Sharanya doesn’t exactly come from the “bottom of the pyramidâ€Â. Her grandfather was a former Sri Lankan High Commissioner to Malaysia.
Read the full story in DNA India here:
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1135947
….Nazri & Khairy.
They are destroying people’s lives.
pls save your ownselves by shutting ur mouth..
no one will say ur dumb if u do so!
Hotline can solve community problems.
what a joke!
no wonder people call you ‘Semi-Value!’
Excerpt from Straits Times Singapore
Home > Lathttp://www.straitstimes.com/Latest%2BNews/Asia/STIStory_182073.htmlest News > Asia
Nov 30, 2007
M’sian crackdown a ‘source of concern’: Indian PM
NEW DELHI – INDIA voiced its concerns on Friday about a crackdown by baton-wielding Malaysian police on ethnic Indians in the capital Kuala Lumpur.
Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said New Delhi was disturbed by reports about the use of force against the protesters in the multicultural Islamic country.
‘This is a matter which does concern us,’ Mr Singh told a joint news conference with European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso in New Delhi.
‘Whenever Indian citizens abroad or people of Indian origin living abroad run into difficulties, that obviously is a source of concern to us,’ he added.
The prime minister’s comments came as a cabinet minister said New Delhi was taking up the issue with Kuala Lampur.
““What is happening [to Indians] in Malaysia,†Sharanya told DNA from her Chennai home, “is nothing less than formal apartheid.â€Â
If that is the case then how’s that a national coalition which presently rules the country has the support of an ethnic Indian Tamil-dominated party, the MIC?
“Whenever Indian citizens abroad or people of Indian origin living abroad run into difficulties, that obviously is a source of concern to us,’ he added.”
But the demonstrators are not Indian citizens or Indian nationals!
Let’s see Bodohland cringe in the attempt to retreat back into the regular coccoon of, “non-interference” and “sovereignty and integrity”
waffling.
If Bodohland had used Fidah the Lidah instead of Nazri, there might have been a little wriggling room left but having used a Neanderthal, the die is cast.
Watch out for more fun.
To side track, not long ago an UMO leader said since the ballot boxes use for next GE would be of transparent type, the election thus would be transparent!
This is the most stupid logic I have ever heard!
Only stupid idiots like Nazri will accept such logic!
China and India will be the economic powerhouses of the future, and will even eclipse the US and Japan. Instead of leveraging on the strengths of our ethnic links to China and India, these BN thieves go all out to try to erase whatever advantages we have against our economic competitors.
No wonder we have moved our first world target from 2020 to 2057. Frankly, my view is that if we don’t make it in the next 10 years, we will never make it at all. The time for change is NOW.
Formal or legalized apartheid in Malaysia need to be addressed the same way in South Africa. We need a Nelson Mandela….
YB
May i quote a Mak Salleh…………….who happens to have his mouth wired securely to his brain……..unlike Nazri, our Minister In The Prime Minister’s Department With No Portfolio + Brain.
“Of course my views are just that: my views. But I have spent most of my adult life analysing and writing about Asia.
I am direct and critical; I do not veil my criticisms because I don’t want to waste my time or yours with readers trying to
guess what I really mean.
Open debate is absolutely critical for all modern, dynamic countries. The free flow of
ideas and information helps to make countries rich. Political leaders cannot do everything on their own be they in
the UK, Australia or Malaysia. They need help. Otherwise they make mistakes.
And when they do, whose fault is
that? Those who prefer to stay quiet?
And should I as a non-Malaysian be commenting on Malaysia? Of course.
Malaysian political leaders and commentators routinely comment about other countries. That’s how the world is now,
an inter-dependent, global world. And the world is much better for it.”
Michael Backman
November 2006
They are not getting it ,, do they ? Can a hotline solve the 50 years of problems of 2 million indians. There are issues,, issues, issues you damm MIC, which indians has raise some donkeys years, but it has gone into the deaf man ears or samy himselves been slaved, literally kicked,slapped, and misuse by the Barisan to get their priorities straight,, MIC was a scapegoat.,, isnt, yes no. Or Indians been fooled.!!!! BUT that doesnt give any single excuse for MIC to ridicule the INDIAN any further, by having hotline. How on earth this Samy could possible come to understanding that a hotline can solve a 50 years of deep problems faced by Indian. Is is as easy as calling a hotline and having a chat.. and the next minute indian will have enough intake in uni, will have sufficient allocation in job , housing , education,loans etc.
Any One Indian walking on street will know wht it is going with Indian and but there is one person who doenst know and he need a hotline now,,, so he will find out just now,, Now how unimaginably stupid a man can be. Do anyone buy this IDEA.
THE HOTLINE IS AN ABSOLUTE MOCKERY AND INSULT TO ALL INDIAN in Malaysia. I WOULD SAY, SAMY AND MIC WILL GO FOR COMPLETE OVERALL OF THE BRAINS AND GET THEIR ACTs RIGHT AND DO NOT DEGRADE INDIAN NO MORE PLEASE. Please hurt no more. Just Leave!!!!!
No chance of anyone leaving the gravy train. Until we forcibly get them off through the ballot box.
Shoot Nazri down, the Big Mouth, otherwise he will not
butt off!!
Get Malaysia Tiger Organization to assassinate him
and the KerisMuddin…!! Gun them down now to solve
All the HINDRAF’s issues faced by The Indians!!
I am writing this while I am on a business overseas. I have never believed in investing in UMNO Malaysia.
It reminds me that organisations, newspapers, radio & TV stations and everthing else survives on business. Not so long age international companies and even governments have been forced to alter their policies and behaviour by the withdrawal of and rejection of business opportunities. Newspapers have subcumbed to the withdrawal of advertisers.
It will be wonderful to see the UMNO government reaction to the denial of business opportunites to government and UMNO linked firms and companies as well as their crony companies by India and China. I for one will be happy to turn foreigners away from investing in UMNO Makaysia. Then the bumis can be the Prince of an economically barren country. They can then have 1005 of zero. Doubtless it will also cause hardship to the non bumis but shorterm pain is better than eternal hell.
Enjoy your eternal Hell.
As Hishamuddin said, UMNO does not need the votes of the Chinese and Indians. This is why the Chinese and Indians in Malaysia are treated like trash!
The site referred to by ENDANGERED HORNBILL should read:
http://www.straitstimes.com/Latest%2BNews/Asia/STIStory_182073.html
The article is reproduced courtesy of THE STRAITS TIMES below :
THE STRAITS TIMES LATEST NEWS
Nov 30, 2007
===============================================================
Photo of Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh with the following caption: Whenever Indian citizens abroad or people of Indian origin living abroad run into difficulties, that obviously is a source of concern to us,’ he added. — PHOTO: AFP
===============================================================
M’sian crackdown a ‘source of concern’: Indian PM
NEW DELHI – INDIA voiced its concerns on Friday about a crackdown by baton-wielding Malaysian police on ethnic Indians in the capital Kuala Lumpur.
Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said New Delhi was disturbed by reports about the use of force against the protesters in the multicultural Islamic country.
‘This is a matter which does concern us,’ Mr Singh told a joint news conference with European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso in New Delhi.
‘Whenever Indian citizens abroad or people of Indian origin living abroad run into difficulties, that obviously is a source of concern to us,’ he added.
The prime minister’s comments came as a cabinet minister said New Delhi was taking up the issue with Kuala Lampur.
‘The matter is being taken up through diplomatic channels,’ junior parliamentary affairs minister Suresh Pachouri told India’s parliament, where MPs have accused Malaysia of mistreating ethnic Indians.
At least 8,000 protesters including women and young people massed on Sunday near Kuala Lumpur’s iconic Petronas Towers – meeting stiff resistance from police, who beat them with batons and used tear gas and water cannon.
The rally was officially in support of a multi-trillion dollar lawsuit accusing former colonial ruler Britain of being at the root of Indians’ economic problems by bringing their ancestors here as indentured labourers in the 1800s.
But it was more squarely aimed at the ruling United Malays National Organisation (Umno), which stands for Malay interests and has ruled the nation since independence a half-century ago. — AFP
Malaysian government’s criticism of oppressive Israeli policies in relation to Palestinians – or of United States policy in Iraq – is different from Karunanidhi’s criticism of Malaysian government’s treatment of its own Indian nationals in that in the case of Malaysian government’s criticism, it is directed at one country’s – whether Israel’s or US’s – policies and treatment of another country which makes it therefore an international issue whereas Karunanidhi’s criticism relates to Malaysian government’s treatment of not another country but its own nationals of Indian descent, hence a domestic issue.
A better example to show double standards would be if or where Nazri criticized Singapore’s treatment of its minority Malay citizens – or maybe the issue of not allowing Muslim students to wear tudung in class.
But even last example of tudung, it is not best example because of the factor of religion (as distinct from “race”) involved where unity of muslim brotherhood based on belief transcends national borders or international norm of non interference in domestic affairs of another country.
It is however agreed that increasingly this international norm of not interfering in domestic affairs of another country is being qualified where human rights violation or humanitarian considerations relating (say) to ethnic cleansing is implicated.
But surely marginalisation of any community does not – based on prevailing norms – tantamount to ethnic cleansing unless one believes in what Hindraf’s leaders said in their memorandum to Gordon Brown.
In a wider context, even the Malays in Malaysia are marginalized by UMNO as only the rich and powerful Malays benefit from the so-called NEP. The poor Malays remain poor and backward in many parts of Malaysia.
What happened to the murder case of Darren Kang at Hartamas?Understand Nazri’s son was involved.
shaolin,
Cool it. Incitement of masses to commit murder is an arrestable offence under the ISA. Be vigilant about special action squad. You could be blasted to smithereens. Fight our cause legitimately until the bitter end. When the end is bitter despite legitimate struggles, everything goes.
“But surely marginalisation of any community does not – based on prevailing norms – tantamount to ethnic cleansing…” Jeffrey
Not to EARNEST who thinks ethnic cleansing is about cleansing the Indians off evil spirits.
India ain’t too amused:
q/
“Minister of State for Parliamentary Affairs Suresh Pachouri told the Rajya Sabha during Zero Hour that the matter was being taken up through diplomatic channels.
He was responding to the members who objected to a senior Malaysian minister asking Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M. Karunanidhi to ‘lay off’ from the internal affairs of that country.
R. Shanmugasundaram of the DMK asked the government to take up the issue of the Malaysian minister’s ‘offensive remarks’.” u/q
http://www.indiaenews.com/india/20071130/83668.htm
International trade very important to Msia. Remember, Fact is Msia need China n India n US, more than they need us ! Don’t let uncle Sam start a trade sanction, then v will be in shit !
Hindraf was talking about a mini ethnic cleansing basing on the Kampong Medan tragedy.
They were afraid that if their sordid situation was kept under lid, their agitations for their place under the sun could result in a full scale ethnic cleansing.
Jakarta Post Nov 30/07 :-
THIS ART IS MINE: Under the gaze of police officers, artists perform Reog Ponorogo, an East Java street mask dance, outside the Malaysian Embassy in Jakarta on Thursday. The performance was a part of a mass protest against Malaysia’s claim that it owns the fiery street dance. The claim has further strained relations between the two neighboring countries. JP/Berto Wedhatama
Malu la… Malaysia claim like this, why dont just say the dance belong to the Greater Malay Archipelago, why Ameno wants to claim this victory too?!
Jeffrey Says:
December 1st, 2007 at 00: 28.03
Malaysian government’s criticism of oppressive Israeli policies in relation to Palestinians – or of United States policy in Iraq – is different from Karunanidhi’s criticism of Malaysian government’s treatment of its own Indian nationals in that in the case of Malaysian government’s criticism, it is directed at one country’s – whether Israel’s or US’s – policies and treatment of another country which makes it therefore an international issue whereas Karunanidhi’s criticism relates to Malaysian government’s treatment of not another country but its own nationals of Indian descent, hence a domestic issue.
===============================================
How about Bosnia muslims mass killing by Serbs militants? Under your rigid definition, it shall be also classified as a domestic issue. Who was making loudest noise? Mahathir was the one.
UMNO only interesred to protest when the victims are muslims. For example, Malaysia had accepted muslims from Cambodia as her rakyat unconditionally.
But even last example of tudung, it is not best example because of the factor of religion (as distinct from “raceâ€Â) involved where unity of muslim brotherhood based on belief transcends national borders or international norm of non interference in domestic affairs of another country.
================
For your record, Tamil Namu CM is sharing same religion with Hindraf’s Malaysian Indians.
Don’t twist your tongue like Nazri, let take hindraf protest as a human rights violation issue under the UN human rights charter which transcend national borders.
Bodohland is a most hypocritical nation, or rather, it has the most hypocritical governance under Mahathir, even before him. After him nothing has changed. This is no longer much of any secret today.
North Vietnamese boat people in sinking boats can be dragged out to sea.
Very good Karma, eh?
GS,
India considers such peoples as Non Resident Indians. He didn’t refer to them as Indian Citizens only. Read again!
Nazri is not a fool. Ask YB Kit, he can tell you. Nazri will be acting under instructions of AAB and possibly Harry Jamban. Maybe Najib too. Otherwise he wouldn’t make such statements.
With regards to Police claiming compensation, I think its time for the Indians to sue the Police for brutality!
a) Use of chemicals unprovoked
b) Direct water spray, which can cause serious hurt. Is this the approved standard operating procedure for spraying chemicals.
c) Tear gas at peaceful crowd at Batu Caves
d) Cort order was at British High Comm, so why w ere people abused at Batu Caves, a Hindu site on the nite of a festival?
e) Police kicking victims who are already trussed up like a chicken!
f) First police informing that the crowd at 8:45am that they would be allowed to march at 9am and then firing tear gas at them at 9 am.
No. We fight the police the same way.
Throw gas cannisters back at them. They use batons on us we use sticks on them. We throw Molotov cocktails! Fight fire with fire!
B R E A K I N G N E W s!!
Attempted assassination of Hilary Clinton by a suicide bomber!
I can confirm that.
Details not clear.
But heresay information has it that there is indeed a suicide bomber at Hilary Clinton’s Office, Rochester New York with bomb strapped to his or her chest. Obama’s office nearby is being evacuated.
BREAKING NEWS! Latest.
A woman with a child ran out of her office confirming the above. Police sharpshooters now negotiating with hostage taker in Clinton’s HQ – believed to be a suicide bomber.
wits0 Says:
December 1st, 2007 at 01: 47.58
Bodohland is a most hypocritical nation, or rather, it has the most hypocritical governance under Mahathir, even before him. After him nothing has changed. This is no longer much of any secret today.
North Vietnamese boat people in sinking boats can be dragged out to sea.
Very good Karma, eh?
========
Wish to correct some flawed facts.
1. Malaysian government withdrew push to international order after intense pressure from UN.
2. Chinese from South Vietname fled to South China Sea while Chinese from North Voetname fled to China mainland.
1. Malaysian government withdrew push to international “water” order after intense pressure from UN.
An armed man claiming to have a bomb walked into a Hillary Clinton campaign office in Rochester, New Hampshire, and could be holding as many as four staffers hostage, a federal official told FOX News.
The assailant said he wanted to speak with Senator Clinton, the official said.
Police have responded to a hostage situation at the office. Clinton is not in New Hampshire.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,314302,00.html
No matter, malaysiatoday.com, neither the foreign nor domestic policies of Bolehland makes the decent grade amid the established hypocrisy.
Jemputan untuk semua
False alarm!!
No suicide bomber but just someone with flares and lots of debts and a divorce.
What do Singaporean Indians say about the treatment of Indians in bolehland? In Singapore, they can be the ministers and President. In boleh, they are different. Why?
I believe there were many reports, appeals to the government to investigate Kg Medan incident but why wouldn’t the government address the complaint. Including the facts stated in a law suit.
All this while I believed it was just a fight so why the gobernment want to come clean.
Actually, nothing being revealed in UMNO led governement. AP, actually equiry ownership. true racial presentation of Banking sector. Corruption investigation and their outcome, urgent motion tabled in parliament. Insulting behaviour of on MB showing finger, fighting, tutup mata, terowong, bocor..etc..etc all nothing happened.
When a member of of family tells that displaying kris is intimidating we were told that’s culture but when others point out that systemmatically being islamisation of the nation we were told not to question. that means we are no willing to listen. Isn’t that unfair?
As a Singaporean indian. They gave me trouble at the Causeway recently. They made it inconvenient for me. Hows the local Indians life. Worse?
The point of contention is the legislated advantage the Malays have over the other races. NEP is just one major aspect. Any other country has this kind of seperate privileges?
The greatest thing lacking in Indians, is not so much Government fair play but self help. There is absolutely none.
In Singapore the government encourages and helps self help. We are compulsorily made to pay a “tithe” each month (depending on our salaries) to a self help organisation. For Indians it is called SINDA. SIngapore Indian Development Association. And for a time it hasnt being doing badly.
Help! Help! Self Help! Only way to go anywhere any part of the world. THe Chinese have it this very effectively through their clan organisations
Badawi says that “he is aware of complaints and will deal with them”. That simply means that he HAS NOT dealt with them yet. The question is WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR? Dear Badawi, the people have been very patient. Your time is over now and enough damage has been done by your predecessor and yourself. It is time for a change.
“He is aware of …”. Now he is aware?? If it takes four years and a demo to make him ‘aware’, what is it going to do to make real changes? What does he want to do, stick around for 20 years and then have his SIL take another 20 years to make it happen? And While he and his SIL enjoy themselves sailing around Pulau Duyong?
His mediocre skills is astounding time and again…
malaysiatoday.com, wits0,
If I remember correctly, TDM even threatened to shoot these desperate boat-people, triggering off international outcry and revulsion at that time.
malaysiatoday.com,
Please explain how I “twist†my “tongue like Nazri†to point out the obvious differences that Israeli policies in relation to Palestinians – or of United States policy in Iraq – are international issues involving countries addressed in the United Nations as distinct from marginalisation of Indians, which under international norms and law, would be widely considered a domestic issue?
Is it not tongue twisting on your part to equate in scale and circumstances the marginalisation of Indians here with targeted killing for extinction of 40,000 Bosnia muslims mass killing by Serbs militants (ethnic cleansing)? The Srebrenica Massacre/ Genocide, in July 1995 ocurred during the Bosnian War, an international armed conflict involving several sides.
Hindraf’s protest concerns racial and religious discrimination is a human rights violation issue – and Human rights is under the UN human rights charter – but does this alone take the matter out of the definition of ‘domestic affairs’ under international norms and law?
I have already said that notwithstanding international norm not to interfere in another sovereign’s state domestic affairs, increasingly the practice is to deviate only in exceptional cases of human rights violation of the scale and proportion triggering humanitarian crisis relating (say) to ethnic cleansing eg in Darfur of Sudan or Ogaden refugees in Ethiopia or civil war in Somalia.
Racial or religious discrimination is technically a human rights violation under UN Charter but that does not in scale and proportion tantamount to humanitarian crisis justifying, by international norms, international intervention in exception to the rule against domestic interference.
Are you saying that there is ethnic cleasing here as what Hindraf memo to Gordon Brown say? If so why complain to India or UK ? – the UN is the proper forum, isn’t it?
Why don’t the rest of us Non Bumi also tag along and complain about the implementation of NEP as human rights violation to the UN and other countries?
You are correct Earnest, never mind what the vague one says. In fact at that time there were other rumours of serious crimes committed against the Vietnamese refugees by the navy…all these were before the Net and nicely squashed by the lid on the media’s monopoly.
NEP is a form of apartheid on all non-malays. But since it only effects economic privileges it has not been apparent to the world. Thus the BN gov. has been escaping the world condemnation.
So far the Indians are the only group brave enough to openly demo on this but other non-malay races are still very afraid to demo on this issue. The fact should be highlighted here NEP should be for all poor people of any races or religion.
MIC and MCA are nothing than lap dogs to UMNO to keep the non-malays under control. But MIC has failed as its leaders have been too greedy. MAIKA Telecom Share Scandal is one of the reason the Indians are mad. When asked to return our investment at the MAIKA meeting kena pukul and the FRU comes in to finish it. Read about the leader of the MIC that the gov. protects and keeps in power. Why wouldn’t the Indian people be mad http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samy_Vellu.
The gov. always make noise when other fair skinned Muslim people are abused, I say good but be consistent to all race and religon in the world and take care of your own people (non-malays) first. Giving university place to foreign fair skin Muslims but denying it to local non-malay Malaysians is BS.
Jeffrey,malaysiatoday.com,
Imho, Jeffrey is advocating Abortion. malaysiatoday.com is advocating the use of Condom.
Is there justification in the “interference” in some other countries’ domestic affairs before full scale bloodbath takes place, like settling an issue at the nip of the bud?
What do you all think?
Greetings to YB Lim Kit Siang,
This is my first post here. I have followed this blog since the beginning of this blog and finally I have decided to support DAP.
With all due respect, I disagree with YB Lim regarding “oppressive Israeli policies” towards the Palestinians. However, I agree wholeheartedly with YB Lim that our government is a hypocrite. Our leaders like to criticize other countries (especially Israel and USA) but sadly they could not take criticism from others.
I have been surfing the Internet since 1995. World Wide Web opens my eyes to what is actually happening out there. It makes me realize that I have been fed with government propaganda (including our anti-Israel policy) since I was young. I used to believe almost everything reported by local newspapers and TV despite my awareness that local media are biased towards BN when it comes to politics. Not anymore. I no longer trust our media especially TV3 and RTM.
I used to subscribe to NST and The Star, and occasionally read Malay Mail, Berita Harian and Utusan Malaysia). I have stopped my subsciption to NST more than ten years ago and have stopped buying The Star for the past seven years.
I used to support BN because I was fed with BN’s propaganda since young. For the past 10 years, I have supported neither BN nor the opposition. I refused to support DAP in the past because of its co-operation with PAS. But now after reading your blog religiously on daily basis since earlier this year, I’ve decided to support DAP and the opposition parties.
Even though I do not trust PAS, I think I will give them a chance considering the fact that the current BN government is controlled by racist UMNO. With UMNO-led government, non-Malays have to deal with racist policies that are biased towards Malays. With PAS-led government, non-Muslims will have to deal with policies that are biased towards Muslims. I myself was a victim of racial discrimination in this country, so sometimes it makes me wonder whether living under religious discrimination under PAS is any better.
Even though I do not trust Anwar Ibrahim (because he used to be in the racist UMNO government), I decided to give him a chance because his new party is no longer based on race but justice.
I do not wish to change the subject of this blog so please refrain from commenting on my comments regarding my disagreement with YB Lim regarding “oppressive Israeli policies.” I am aware that the purpose of the topic of this blog is to make Malaysians aware of the hypocrisy of our leaders. However, I disagree with YB Lim that our PM was “rightly so” to speak up “for the Palestinians and criticized oppressive Israeli policies.” Of all peoples, I expect the DAP and the oppositions to be aware of our biased local media. So, please do not believe everything that you read about “oppressive” Israel in the local media. If our local media are biased when reporting about local politics, then don’t expect them to be unbiased when reporting about the Jews or Israel. This is what the Internet has taught me and that is why I no longer trust our local media nor do I trust our BN government.
Furthermore, it is not right to compare Bersih and Hindraf demonstrators with what is happening in Israel. The Israeli government has every rights to suppress suicide bombers. Bersih and Hindraf demonstrators were not suicide bombers! What right the BN government has in oppressing peaceful Malaysian citizens? What right has our PM to speak for the Palestinians when he himself is oppressing and discriminating non-Malay and non-Muslim citizens?
This coming election, I will be supporting DAP and I will do whatever I can to support DAP. Long live Mr. Lim Kit Siang!
Ai yah! Nazri, u wan to start a words war with them or what, u forget ka? they are good lawyers lah,
u wan our palm oil people suffer ? India is Msia biggest palm oil customer, u know?
The more war of words with them, the more the world will know about Msia, NEP, kris waving with saying to soak it in other blood, Z istana, PKFZ, Kg Medan, temple demolish, bocor here bocor there, building collapse, (hey, what U msai engineers n contractors n architects doing lah, didnt these tarnish msia engineers n architects n contractors images), more than 22 years to wait for applcn to build a church etc,
sure ka? u wan to let the whole world know?
EARNEST I am not advocating Abortion (as in sense of awaiting until full fledged genocide) as opposed to malaysiatoday.com’s advocating the use of Condom (nipping what what happened in Kg Medan in the bud).
No one here – and definitely not me – has said that what happened in Kg Medan should not be investigated or stopped. Strong feelings about that should not be a licence to unwarrantedly extrapolate things that I didn’t say or mean.
All I said was to clarify, what based on customary international norm and usage, is the line drawn, in terms of scale and proportion, between mere human rights violation on one hand and humanitarian crisis on the other where the latter overrides, as an exception, the norm of not interfering in a sovereign state’s domestic affairs, justifying international / UN intervention.
Do you have facts and evidence to suggest what happened in KG Medan is leading to full scale bloodbath waiting to take place?
Secondly I am also not aruing or debating what “ought” to be the international position on issues like these. I am merely clarifying what “is” the present stance and norm generally and currently prevailing within and taken by the international community of where the line is drawn on non interference of another country’s domestic affairs and what circumstances are deemed the line having been crossed, justifying international or other countries’ intervention, as justifiable exception to the first mentioned norm.
Nazri still lives in his coconut shell. He still thinks his KETUNANAN MELAYU mentality can applies to the world at large besides Malaysia in this globalized world. He thinks that he still can continue bullying the non-malays without being scrutinized by the international communities. WAKE UP NAZRI!!! Malaysia is only a small dot in the world map and malays forms only a small percentage in the world communities. Dont be too arrogant.!!!
ohhhh, that moron spoke again? that racist imbercile who calls himself the lor minister and is also known as the taxi minister and is also known as the most affectionate local village idiot?
that bodoh, bodoh, bodoh fella still alive?
sigh, are you still there God?
menokki Says:
December 1st, 2007 at 08: 29.51
As a Singaporean indian. They gave me trouble at the Causeway recently. They made it inconvenient for me. Hows the local Indians life. Worse?
The point of contention is the legislated advantage the Malays have over the other races. NEP is just one major aspect. Any other country has this kind of seperate privileges?
=======================
I am quite sure there is another country with a similair NEP policy, that is Sri Lanka.
Jeffrey,
I said you have twisting your tongue in the Tudung case by saying Islam is transcending national borders. I am not sure this is a norm or not under the international law.
Look at the Jakarta 1998 513 riot for example, China government classified it as a domestic affair and said no intervention from her part.
Under your rigid international rule, how many people shall be killed before UN can intervene and stop ethic cleasing in a country?
Rwanda massacre could be stopped at early stage, but UN late action had cost 800,000 innocent lives in the hand of Hutu extremists.
As far as I know, Kampong Medan incident is not a planned ethnic cleasing by UMNO or Malay politicians unlike Jakarta 513 riot and KL 513 riot. The conflict was sparked after a countless of criminal activities like small thiefs, house break-ins, robbings, etc. in the area by Indian umemployed youth.
Malay and also Chinese community in Kampong Medan were very frustrated with underground activities of Indian gangsters for too long. A small friction between an Indian and a Malay family sparked armed fighting in the street.
Public inquiry is a right channel to clear the incident from turning into racial issue.
Tamil Nadu CM is doing his duty by reminding Malaysia do not mistreat Malaysian Indians under the framework of UN human rights charter. Whether he is same race or religion with local Indians is an irrelevant issue.
China governmet was heavily criticizeby her people for not doing enough to highlight Jakarta riots in UN.
This world is imperfect, only your own race or same religion brothers have more interests on your fate. That is why Malaysian government is more interested on Palestinian fate than Tibetan.
Under your rigid international rule, how many people shall be killed before UN can intervene and stop ethic cleansing in a country? — malaysiatoday.com
Jeffrey, it is just inference not extrapolation. malaysiatoday.com has the above question basing on his inference that you are quantifying the degree of a tragedy before “interference” is justified. To me, it is justified before anybody died. The video showing police brutality against peaceful demonstrations was enough for India’s politicians including their PM to voice their concern. The US State Department had also voiced their concern, but Nazri did not ask them to butt out. To you, it is not justified too?
Islam is transcending national borders in its solidarity under Muslim brotherhood. It is a belief or tenet of faith of many muslims. It is not an international law or norm. I have never suggested that it was.
What I was implying is that if you asked Malaysian leaders why they are championing Palestinians and Iraq on the world stage on grounds that Malaysia would also be interfering with domestic affairs of other nation when it does not want others, like for example India, to interfere with our domestic affairs on grounds of the principle of non intervention, they are likely to have additional argument to rationalize, reconcile and justify their actions (and avert a charge of double standards) on grounds that their religious tenets of belief transcend international norm and law on non interference. It is on another plane.
International law and norm is trying to balance two conflicting imperatives – one is the respect of a sovereign’s nation right to direct its own affairs without interference of others and the other is trying to shape world order with modicum of minimum standards on human rights (here Malaysia has refrained so far from ratifying some crucial treaties/conventions under the UN Declaration of Human Rights) and rallying international intervention to prevent/stop ethnic cleansing/genocide on humanitarian grounds, notwithstanding and as an exception to the other policy of non intervention.
“How many people shall be killed before UN can intervene and stop ethic cleansing in a country?†is a good question based on principle of prevention/mitigation better than complete cure of which I have no answer where the line (balancing the two imperatives) should be drawn. Neither do I think this has been figured out by the relevant stakeholders at UN level or by international law.
I have not addressed and have made no comments about the issue of whether Tamil Nadu CM is doing his duty right or wrong to comment on our problems.
As I explained in an earlier posting, I am just describing what is the current prevailing custom, usage and thinking per international norms and practices rather than what ought to be the case. Look at how internationally they look at refugee status in granting asylum. Your being racially and religiously discriminated in your own country is not a qualifying criteria. It has to be more than that.
I draw the obvious differences in Israeli-Palestinian conflict/American intervention in Iraq to Kit’s attention out of good intention that if one is arguing with Nazri on why he is “double standards†in barking atTamil Nadu CM, one should be armed and not give Nazri the obvious advantage to be able to rebut by pointing out the obvious differences in the Israeli-Palestinian & Iraq conflict from that of our Hindraf situation in that Israeli-Palestinian & Iraq conflict involves, within that conflict, a foreign power like US intervening in another country’s domestic affairs in contravention of international norm so that even the United Nation is involved in arbitrate a solution whereas on the our own issue of Malaysian government’s treatment or mistreatment of certain races, it is still a domestic issue (based on present international norms) involving no other foreign power/country contravening the principle of non intervention or for that matter the UN taking a lead to settle things.
“To you, it is not justified too?†– Earnest
Personally not only Tamil Nadu CM could comment and condemn injustice in our country, so too can Altantuya Shaaribuu’s father or anyone else and vice versa we of their countries.
Because we are the World – a Global citizenry of common aspiration and intertwined destinies and comon problems of bigotry of race, religion, creed and wealth/power.
This idea of non interference in domestic affairs started as an international norm when de-colonisation happened aftert end of World War II ended where new states lobbied for some slack from UN and big powers not to have their domestic affairs (read their failures in human rights) interfered with to allow time for domestic democracy to take root and prosperity to grow and underpin it.
But don’t use my thinking – I’m nobody – as platform to argue in public with our leaders.
When one is taking on lawyer Nazri and try to establish his double standards in telling Tamil Nadu CM off for interfering, one has to follow present day international norms and law and use better examples than Malaysia’s criticisms of Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and Iraq War because otherwise these guys can defend themselves and rebut effectively on 3 grounds –
1. International law and norms exclude interference in our national affairs other than exceptional cases of humanitarian intervention in genocide/ethnic cleansing (as in Bosnia-Serb & other cited cases) which per Hindraf’s grievances even Kg Medan incidences don’t, in scale and proportion, apply;
2. Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and Iraq War are clear cases of interenational issue as opposed to domestic issue as a third foreign power like US is intervening in the affiars and besides the UN ios arbitrating non of such conditions being in our Indian marginalisation case;
3. above and beyond international norm and law, Muslim leaders for religious reasons can claim solidarity with the muslim plight in Palestine and Iraq based on religious precepts transcendental of international law.
For this reason I suggested that it would be a better example to contradict him if and when there are situation where Malaysian leaders interfered with Singapore’s domestic affairs as in its treatment of its Malay citizens.
Then it would be comparing orange and orange and not orange and apple for which our Minister of Law could easily distinguish and rebut cogently.
That’s the summary of what I was trying to say, if you need the clarification.
Cheers. :)
Jeffrey,
3. above and beyond international norm and law, Muslim leaders for religious reasons can claim solidarity with the Muslim plight in Palestine and Iraq based on religious precepts transcendental of international law. — Jeffrey
Can the word “Muslim” be substituted with “Hindu”, “Palestine and Iraq” with “Malaysia” in the above context? Can Hindu leaders for religious reasons also do the same?
“….//…Can the word “Muslim†be substituted with “Hinduâ€Â, “Palestine and Iraq†with “Malaysia†in the above context? Can Hindu leaders for religious reasons also do the same?…//…” – EARNEST.
You have to ask the experts on Islam and Hinduism for that. I am neither.
From the little I know, the concept of nation state, sovereignty, nationalism and so on was philosophically developed in 18th century Europe which was torn by factionalism drawn from racial and religious lines.
The concept of nation state was pretty much absent in early Islam during the establishment of the first Islamic State in the world (Madinah) and throughout the political history of the Caliphate era. Thus from the very beginning of Islam, there can only be one ruler and one Ummah under the ruler.
Ummah is the community of believers. It is a consciousness of belonging to a community whose membership was open equally and without any qualification or restriction, except that of the faith, to all believers. In this sense Islam is universal transcending national borders. A Muslim born and bred in the Unites States may claim citizen of US as a nation but transcendental to that would be his world wide affliation to the Ummah. It became a means of establishing a religious and cultural identity that was independent of and beyond individual Muslim states in existence today.
This construction of religious and cultural identity under concept of “Muslim brotherhood†is unique to Islam and not found in the same pattern in Hindu or any other religious teachings, I think.
This guy got no brain,he is too arrogant.
He should be send to Tanjung Rambutan.
Thanks, Jeffrey, for your very thoughtful comments on this matter. I think you’ve done a very good job in anticipating what Nazri would say in defence of his stance. But I agree with Earnest that there seems to be no double standards here. Whereas Muslim solidarity transcends national boundaries and a Muslim can argue that it also transcends international laws and norms, Earnest has rightly pointed out that Indians in India can cite exactly the same argument in terms of Hindu solidarity or one that is similar in principle (i.e. in terms of ethnic solidarity). If the Muslim can argue that religious solidarity transcends international laws and norms, why can’t someone argue that ethnic solidarity transcends international laws and norms? Of course, both can be equally unjustified. But that is beside the point. So I think Kit is right that Nazri is indeed guilty of double standards when he defends the palestinians while asking the Indians in India to butt out when they try to defend their fellow Indians and Hindus in Malaysia. In fact, the Indians in India are more justified in defending Indian Malaysians (given both ethnic and religious solidarity) than the Muslim Malaysians in defending their fellow Muslims in Palestine and Iraq (given only religious solidarity)
Happy to see your return to write in and contribute to the Blog, Wang Yen. I have responded to EARNEST question No.3 something about one of the cornerstones of Islamic beliefs based on Muslim Ummah transcending national borders and nation states and how from the very beginning of Islam, the belief is that there can only be one ruler and one Ummah under the ruler, quite different from the “Western” concept of separate nation states with their own respective sovereignty developed from 18th century factional strife and wars in Europe based on racial and religious lines; how basically this concept of universal muslim brotherhood is unique feature to Islam and not on all 4 squares with (say) Hinduism and other religions. But the posting has not appeared, seems to be presently lost in cyberspace at the time of writing.
Jeffrey is right that the situation of Palestinians in Isreal’s ‘occupied’ land is indeed different from that of Indians in Malaysia, given that there is no issue of land ownership/invasion in the latter.
But I think Kit’s point still stands despite the disanalogy. If the Malaysian government can voice our protest against the ill treatment of some ‘indigenous’ people (whether the so-called Palestianians are really indigenous is a highly disputable issue) by the ‘occupying’ power, why can’t the Indian government speak up against the ill treatment of ethnic minority in Malaysia? This seems to me a very good point. Of course, there are disanalogies in these two cases. Nazri can of course say that the Israeli regime is an illegal occupying power (I personally don’t agree, but that’s beside the point) whilst the Malaysian government is not. But this seems to be saying that it is ok for a government to ill treat its ethnic minority just so long as it is not an illegal occupying power. Of course, one may say that Nazri’s point is that the Indian government has no legal right whatsoever given current international laws to interfere or even just to voice their protest, even if it is morally right for them to speak out. He is of course right on this technical point. But it would be very foolish of him to defend his outburst against the Indian MP in this way. If he does so he will make himself look like a wife-beater in a country that has no laws (or very weak laws that is biased against women) against domestic violence who says defiantly to his neighbour, ‘Shut up! Mind your own business!’
Besides the interesting part is that the Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M. Karunanidhi was criticizing the Malaysian government not strictly on the basis of religious solidarity worldwide against persecution of Hindus but more on race – solidarity that Tamils (albeit also Hindu) have been persecuted. At least that’s what his detractors in Indian Parliament argued against M. Karunanidhi, that he was making political posturing as champion of Tamils worldwide.
You people just don’t know how blessed we are by having Nazri as our minister.
Every time he opens his mouth and offends somebody he will cost the BN a few votes and makes the Rakyat more angry with the Government.
He is the best campaigner for the oppositions by far! For all the hard work done by the oppositions to turn a voter to the opposition, all he has to do is just open his mouth and he’ll turn a few voters away from BN! And he is doing it for free to the oppositions!
Look at it this way, guys.
I happened to have written a paper on the relationship between church and state in various Christian traditions a few years ago. The doctrine of separation of church and state represents the view of only some Christian traditions. Medieval Catholicism certainly repudiated that. There is currently a movement in the US that advocates a Christian theocracy modelled on Mosaic laws (e.g. death sentence for adultery). In any case, Islam is not unique in its notion of Ummah. There is at least two Christian counterparts in the form of medieval christendom and modern theonomist theocracy (though the latter hasn’t been historically realised).
However, the more important point is this. If Muslims have their internal reason (i.e their Islamic doctrinal reason) to transcend international laws and boundaries, why can’t other communities (whether ethnic or religious) cite their own internal reasons (be they doctrinal or ethnic) to transcend international laws and boundaries?
I think ethic solidarity is a good reason for him to speak up against the Malaysian government, for the above reason.
Well, the answer to that question will be answer to explain why there’s so much of conflict in this world present and past, and foreseeably in the future: one religious grouping thinks that their doctrinal basis is only true and justified whilst others’ are not.
Sorry for the typo.
…There ARE at least two Christian counterparts…
Thanks, Jeffery, for the discussion! I’ve enjoyed reading your posts. There are often very good reflections, even when I disagree with you at times.
Actually except for the very few like you who have researched and known about the two Christian counterparts in the form of medieval christendom and modern theonomist theocracy, this is hardly common knowledge to most people, and particularly many muslims may think that theocracy and the feature of world wide Ummah are unique to the Islamic faith since the beginning providing the perceived objective basis for others to understand if not respect why they alone are justified to treat it as transcendental of even international norm and laws on no domestic interference in complete defence against allegations of double standards.
But an ethnic community can say the same about ethnic solidarity. When asked why Ummah transcends international laws and norms, Muslims say, ‘this is what we believe according to our religious views’. Likewise, the community could say, ‘according to our traditional views, our ethnic solidarity transcends international laws and norms’. Both are in parallel situations: both cite standards/authorities internal to their own communities. If internal standards are an acceptable excuse for ‘transcendence’, why are they only acceptable for the Muslims but not other communities?
Note that I have not granted the premise that internal standards are an acceptable reason/excuse for transcendence. My point is simply that, IF Nazri thinks that Muslim internal standards are acceptable, why denies the acceptability when Indians use their internal standards?
Personally, I’m more inclined to think that, unless you can argue for your religious views on common/neutral grounds acceptable to those who initially reject your religious views, such internal standards are not acceptable.
If a chief minister in Melaka wrote a letter to our PM urging him to raise concern with Thai government on mistreatment of muslim malays in Southern Thailand, this event itself is a domestic affair between Melaka CM and Malaysia PM.
Good question – no easy answer to this thing about internal standards, why claim to ethnic solidarity not to be treated as same stature as religious solidarity.
Not to sure but maybe it has something to do with the principle of self-determination being acepted as one of the basic principles of international law/norm overriding with solidarity. The argument appears to be self determination is granted to all peoples including minorities who choose to continue being citizens as minority in their respective countries taking the good along with the bad.
Besides this , the other point is the diaspora issue – Chinese and Indians are distributed all over the world and from the practical angle if China or India were to intervene whenever their same ethnic minorities complain of marginalisation in their own countries, what would happen to international order and diplomatic relations world wide?
To the counter argument why these same arguments don’t apply to religious solidarity, I suppose many would take spiritual matters to transcend and operate on a level or realm probably above all these man made practical considerations or principles on self determination applying or delimiting extent of ethnic solidarity. I don’t really know the answer but venturing a guess.
malaysiatoday.com, a good example you gave for which the only justification to avert the allegation of double standards would be along religious standards. Or they may argue that it is to near to our Northern border so for genuine political reasons they like to see the unrest in Thai Southern Border settled, with the disgruntled appeased. The argument get harder to sustain when it concerns Southern separatist movement in the Phillipines.(It’s not near our borders).
defenders of ethnic solidarity can use exactly the same reasoning: ethic solidarity transcends man-made practical considerations or principles on self-determination.
sorry. ..’ethic…’ should have been ‘ETHNIC’
Read what Bangkok Post columnist said of the Hindraf and racial discord in Malaysia.
http://2hard2lie.blogspot.com
Non interference of domestic affairs of sovereign nations is based on the principle of self determination widely accepted in international law & norm.
If I were not mistaken, principle of self determination has its philosophical underpinnings in English philosopher, John Stuart Mill’s thoughts.
Mill thought that a political community must struggle for freedom-whether successful or not ; that the internal freedom of a political community could only be achieved by its internal members ; that if the political system was oppressive, it was the responsibility of members of that political polity to change it whether by ballot or revolution.
In the premises, if one chooses to remain a citizen in a country in which he is marginalized, he has to take the good and bad and is estopped from otherwise soliciting outside assistance based on ethnic solidarity.
In today’s Globalised environment of free mobility, he could after all migrate and get out of his oppressed condition. The key is self determination, for being responsible for one’s situation – the necessary condition for and consequence in exercise of his freedom and free will.
China, that overseas an expansive diaspora, seems to take this position on non interference, repudiating arguments based on ethnic solidarity as an exception if what malaysiatoday.com earlier said in his posting: December 1st, 2007 at 17: 30.06 may be relied upon as true – “Look at the Jakarta 1998 513 riot for example, China government classified it as a domestic affair and said no intervention from her partâ€Â.
The limited recognized exception in interntional norm/law to non interference / principle of non intervention is (besides national self defence) compelling humanitarian imperatives to stop genocide and ethnic cleansing.
That is the widely international norm expressed as it is – not what I think it should otherwise be.
Good to hear from you Lee! We thought we lost you – just as we thought we had lost Jeffrey.
You may be interested to know that your old adversary Tun Lim Kam Put the Cambridge wannabe is still at it – this time bashing Godamn Singh and Colonel on another read.
If he so much as tries to be obnoxious again and reverts to name calling, we will come to your aid. One thing you must never do is stay away from this blog because of Tun Lim Kam Put from Kg. Attap – which was a major red light district in KL but has since been overtaken by Jln. Alor which he now frequents.
We need your contribution on a regular basis on the very important issues being discussed here. Once in a while expect Tun Lim Kam Put to butt in on the discussions because “everybody else is stupid” according to him. Of course commentators here know better. Like Godamn Singh says, he could be an escapee from the psychiatric ward of some hospital and had run out of his medications.
I can see your point about self determination. But this argument cuts both ways. If Nazri uses it to contend that the Indian government shouldn’t speak up because Indian Malaysians have a choice to leave, exactly the same reasoning can be used to argue that the Malaysian government should keep quiet on the Palestinian issue since they have a choice to leave.
So I think Kit is right that there are enough parallels between the hindraf issue and the Palestinian issue (despite the disanalogies) that warrant the cry of double standards.
So what is the purpose of the government setting up “Kementerian Perpaduan Negara” if they themselves do not believe in racial harmony and equality among races????
ktteokt,
It is set up just to show to the WORLD that such UNITY
BOARD does exist in Malaysia; whether it is of USE is
inmaterial..!!
Important thing is: If UN carries out the audition, Ministry
of HUMAN RIGHTs will NOT fail the AUDIT survey..!!
To freenfairmalaysia,
you quoted :
“And of course, we don’t need any reminded that India is a nuclear power, one of very few and boasts the second largest army in the world, second only to China. Technically speaking, a full fledged row with Malaysia would last half a day, with the military capabilities of India including their huge array of fighter planes, navy vessels, submarines et al.
My respond:
Indian military spending not even in top 10 and not second only to China.
1st: United states
2nd: European union
3rd: United Kingdom
4th: France
5th: China
6th: Japan
7th Germany
8th: Russia
9th: Italy
10th: Saudi Arabia
11th: India*
It’s not by looking the population of one community and compared with the rest of the world but only the military capability itself.
Perhaps indian is the biggest bragger in the world.
Regards.