Posted on by Kit

RM27 million cop charged – call for end to “headless administration” and multi-millionaire cops

The charging of the Commercial Crime Investigation Department (CCID) director Datuk Ramli Yusuff in the Kuala Lumpur Sessions Court yesterday with two counts of failing to make a full disclosure of his assets and another for involvement in business which entail a maximum penalty of 20 years in prison if convicted has raised the curtain for public view of something very rotten both in the police force as well as the government.

It warrants an urgent call for an end to the “headless administration” presently prevalent in the country in the past four years, as it is most disheartening to the Malaysian public that despite the Royal Police Commission Report and its 125 recommendations to create an efficient, incorruptible, professional world-class police service to keep crime low, eradicate corruption and respect human rights, the rot both in the police and government have got worse rather than improve for the better.

The prosecution of the “RM27 million cop” reminds Malaysians of two serious allegations about corruption in the police force –

  • The allegation by former top cop who was the country’s longest-serving Inspector-General of Police Tun Hanif Omar in August that 40% of senior police officers could be arrested for corruption without further investigations strictly on the basis of their lifestyles;
  • The Royal Police Commission Report in May 2005 which found that “corruption is still widespread among police personnel” (p 9), recounting the case from a complainant of a senior police officer who made an asset declaration amounting to RM34 million but no action had been taken.

    The Ramli prosecution has refocused public attention on the problem of police corruption and millionaire and multi-millionaire plice officers — and the failure to implement the recommendations of Royal Police Commission for zero tolerance for corruption in the police force.

    A question that is being asked by Malaysians is whether Ramli would have been prosecuted by the Anti-Corruption Agency (ACA) if the CCID Director had not been caught in a fratricidal warfare with the Inspector-General of Police.

    This leads to the second grave concern about the police force — with the police at war with itself as well as with the Internal Security Ministry, paralyzing a concentrated and an all-out war to keep crime low, the first of three major recommendations of the Royal Police Commission.

    With the Police at war with itself for months on end, it is no surprise that crime in Malaysia has become as endemic as corruption in the country — failing to achieve the Royal Police Commission objective to safeguard the country’s reputation as a safe country for the sake of its citizens, tourists and foreign investors with the immediate target of “a minimum 20 per cent decrease in crimes” within the first 12 months after the Report.

    This target has not been achieved as the opposite has taken place.

    The Royal Police Commission has referred to the “alarming” and “dramatic increase” in the crime index from 121,176 cases in 1997 to 156,455 cases in 2004, which registered an increase of 29 per cent in eight years.

    Instead of reducing the crime incidence of 156,455 cases in 2004 to a level “no longer alarming”, crime incidence is set to break the 200,000 mark this year — which would be a hefty increase of some 30% of the crime incidence of 2004!

    With the crime index increasing by leaps and bounds, proving that crime and corruption have become even more endemic that during the inquiry of the Royal Police Commission, it is shocking and outrageous that the top police leadership is at war with itself with external agencies like the Attorney-General’s Chambers, the ACA and the Internal Security Ministry taking sides.

    What is even more shocking is that the Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi who is the Minister for Internal Security had allowed such fratricidal warfare to be waged in the Police Force for such a prolonged period, undermining all efforts to create a world-class professional police service to keep crime low, eradicate corruption and respect human rights.

    This was why I was so angry when the Deputy Internal Security Minister, Datuk Fu Ah Kiow, trvialised the whole incident by giving a standard and meaningless reply about the internal police warfare, when he had earlier promised to give an informed, proper and satisfactory explanation to Parliament and the nation.

    Parliament and the country are entitled to know what is happening in the Police force when its mission to keep crime low and root out corruption have been gravely undermined by the internal police warfare, with the Attorney-General’s Chamber, the ACA and the Internal Security Ministry taking sides and making the Royal Police Commission quite a wasted effort in terms of its three objectives — for the police to keep crime low, eradicate corruption and respect human rights.

    For this reason, I urgently call for an end to a “headless administration” and establishment of a new Royal Commission of Inquiry into police corruption and police at war with itself with crime becoming as endemic as corruption in the country in the past two years.

    • 117 Replies to “RM27 million cop charged – call for end to “headless administration” and multi-millionaire cops”

    1. I was wondering after several small fish were caught, who the next big fish is to be served up. I guess Ramli is the big fish they caught for the election but he shouldn’t worry much. He should know the gov. policy on corruption catch, release and forget after election and just go with the flow. Just make you pay the correct people off after the election

    2. Not only “headless” but also “ba**less”.
      This dim witted and colourless PM does not know what to do. He is lost.
      Robbers, rapists, ah longs, mat rempits will having a field day knowing full well that the police is at war with itself and have no time nor ability to go after them.
      The PM said the lawyers march will scare away foreign investors. Me thinks it is his inability to lead the country that will, not only scare foreign investors, but encourage local businessman to take out their funds elsewhere. This PM is a headless chicken.

    3. Ramli’s not the big fish. The charges were related only to his failure to comply with the disclosure requirements, not the accumulation of untold wealth through corrupt means.

      “Catch and release” is an apt term for election-day fishing.

    4. Ramli’s Saga continues to Court for the humiliation & shame. Most papers reported 3 charges. Another is pending in Nov 19 in Sabah. What a greedy man he is? He claimed he was cleaned up to Sept 06 but the IGP has now demanded upgrade of all transactions every 6 months and he was caught in this trap.
      But whatever, hats off to him if he had amassed his wealth and fortunes by economic means – the hard way– through production and trade. But the chances are he gained his fortunes by the easy route; by virtue of his position, by having government grant him the favors and privileges at the expense of their fellow-men.
      The reality of the situation and dilemma he is facing is all his own doing for he is not aware at all of the universal reality rule that
      “You create your reality wherever you are and there is no exception”.
      More details at:
      http://powerpresent.blogspot.com/2007/11/more-pics-malaysia-no-3-cop-ramli.html

    5. The rakyat have been fooled and have tolerated all this stinking and rotting human rubbish for decades.Please tell us the Almighty God when will all the nation’s blood suckers be exterminated?

    7. yb kit

      i sometimes wonder how you prioritise the issues that you choose to post on your site. obviously you choose those that you think are important enough, of national concern etc etc. some individual opinions and comments also get posted especially if the writer is quite prominent…bakri, farish etc etc. now what i cannot fiure out is why you have not posted anything to do with the hindu temple demolition in shaha alam recently that was carried out while prayers were going on within the temple leading to 14 arrests mostly of innocent devotees and injuries. WHY, MAY I ASK, IS IT THAT NOTHING APPEARS HERE AND FURTHER IT IMPLIES THAT YOU HAVE NOT BOTHERED TO EITHER RAISE IT IN PARLIAMENT,OR YOU DONT INTEND TO RAISE IT IN PARLIAMENT?
      WHY? WHEN NEGARA KUKU WAS AN ISSUE OU JUMPED UP AND DOWN WITH THE DAP DEFENDING THAT FELLOW (AS HE SHOULD HAVE…SO WELL DONE). I DONT KNOW IF IT’S A COINCIDENCE THAT HE WAS CHINESE AND HINDU TEMPLES INVOLVE INDIANS (NON CHINESE). ALTHOUGH YOU HAVE RAISED ISSUES RELATED TO INDIANS BEFORE, I DONT SEE WHY YOU REMAIN SILENT ON THIS SERIOUS PATTERN AND TREND THAT IS BEING ADOPTED BY THE GOVT WHICH MAKES ME THINK THAT TH DAP IS A PARTY FOR THE CHINESE …..AS MANY HAVE ACCUSED YOU OF BEING IN THE PAST…I GUESS I AM NOW INCLINED TO AGREE WITH THEM…

    9. agreed with you godfather. ramli is certainly not a BIG fish.
      The Big Fish are still swimming happily in self made castles and palaces.

      we as law abiding raayat who love Malaysia more than the government , must respect that ramli is innocent until proven guilty. dont be like those mps who are rude to the oku and women.

      ramli is just another pawn in the power play of politics to hoodwink the raayat that the government does NOT condone corruption.

      asset declarations of all the ministers, current and past, including those excos be made public for scrutiny, and by god, we probably have no one in “power”.

      but what is frightening to us ordinary Malaysians , is , that if because of this infighting within the men in blue , more blood and murder are out in the street with cases unable to solve.

      poor Nurin, may her soul rest in peace, and (i am sure God will take care of her, ) – with the fbi involvement ,and this lead and that lead,has lead us to no answers as yet.

      a total of nearly rm300 billion was announced for the many corridors,( so far ) and i wonder where we are going to get that amount of money. my roti has gone by 20 cents today, and i just have to cut down on even my daily bread. (digress).

      if the government is truely committed to corruption, let the raayat be shown all assets and monies held by all the ministers , mps , wakil raaayat , and families – and i will praise you mr. premier.

      ramli ‘s press release of one tengku goh is another amazing hollywood/bollywood/chinawood/bolehwood movie.!!

      even johari baharom as reported addressed The Mr.God as @ tengku. must have that in his mykad. as an alias. if the script is that tengku is so very powerful, than malaysia ranked above columbia and macau, as a country run by de facto mafias and gangsta.

      let’s see who else will be charged ( kata orang swei seow ) for this coming election. on a positive notes, most of this napoleons never learn. when election is coming soon. go for a holiday and step down quietly. but as usual , only the zahir is suci ,not the batin.

      i feel sad for my country MALAYSIA, which i love so much.

    10. This is nothing compared to the undisclosed sum earned by our Klang tai koh Zakaria. It is so glaring that this man is living beyond his means and yet nothing is done by ACA. All can a simple MP can afford to build such a mansion when even the ministers’ houses are smaller than his and their income is higher than his. Our Pee M should invite our Zakaria to give a seminar on his success so that Malaysian can learn a thing or two from his trade secrets. In Bolehland once you are on the wrong side, everything can go wrong for you and your family.

    11. to archer:- go and scold samy vellu. MIC. Malaysia Indian Congress. thats a race based political party and part of barisan nasional.

      lim guan eng was arrested and charged and convicted for assisting a young malay girl. lest you forget.

      i am not defending uncle Lim, but the headlines of the day is corruption. and the charge of ramli.

      i sympathise with you on the destruction of the Temple, but i bet you voted for samy vellu. did you defend karpal singh when a rude mp made ill remarks about oku ?

    12. The archer is obviously a cyber warrior for MIC who cannot see anything good in the DAP. I would say the DAP has championed Indians causes more than the MIC.
      the archer, uses his arrow blindly and has not made any effort to read kit’s speeches in and out of parliament over the last 30+ years.

    15. It is blessing in disguise for CCID director being charged in the court. While there is a need to strees about someone must be there to stop the increase crime rate, on the otherhand any corrupted government officer must be prosecuted especially the big fish.

    16. Libra2, we should not bluntly accuse other people of being BN cybertroopers simply because they have some disagreements with us. If we are not careful with our emotions, we may very well end up thinking like our ministers. I’ve been noticing some of the more passionate members here are tilting dangerously towards UMNO’s level of recklessness with their words. Not everyone who disagrees with us are against us.

    18. No amount of prosecution is going to significantly reduce corruption……..one has to look at leadership at all levels to tackle this destructive problem at all costs.

      This is a direct result of decades of bad leadership of the country.

    19. uncle lim, sorry . anyone out there have any idea what happened to MT. cannot access. and when able to , the walt disney part erased. someone can update please. even petra mobile is unanswered. thank you very much yb. pinjam space .

    24. YB, might be this negavite approach could make a impact.

      oct Says:
      “…. Pee M should invite our Zakaria to give a seminar on his success so that Malaysian can learn a thing or two from his trade secrets.”

    26. Yes, Malaysia has diverse peoples who live in unity and harmony – police officers, godfathers, crooks, judges, politicians etc.

      And we also need to offer employment to thousands of unemployables by giving them something to do like writing reports, reports and more reports and then filing them all.

      Yes, we are one big, happy, family. Come and enjoy our National Heritage and Culture organised by the Culture, Arts and Heritage Ministry. It will be held in Jalan Tun Sambanthan, Brickfields, on Nov 11 from 10am to 6pm. (1 day after the 100,000 people gathering at the Dataran to petition the King).

      This year’s theme, “We Are United In One Heritage”, was chosen to instill unity among Malaysians and to strengthen the ties between the people and their leaders.

      Yes, there will be alot of FREE FOOD to attract you. Come and enjoy the music and dancing as well. But don’t wear sexy dresses as it will disrupt the concentration of the pious who will not be at peace and therefore not be able to live in harmony. Turbans are OK.

    27. I was so dissapointed how the government today tackle the current issue..and i get to watch a short clips on Pee M media conference on the “ASTRONAUT”..there was a question raised inside me.. so many things happen to the country lately..and the sleeping PEE M still mention to the media that he is interested to send another astronaut..oh my goodness..he is running before he get to know how to walk..why dont he clear the mess in his office and all the corrupted officers/MP under his authority..?????before he was elected as the Pee M, everyday talked about anti-coruption..and now i believe the number of coruption is increasing..

    28. On the issue of Ramli,

      I believe that the main problem lies in the fact that the Government has a bad hand this election. True, they have the angkasawan issue, media, etc on their side to play, but other than that they don’t have anything more significant; probably due to the fact that the “feel good” feeling that Pak Lah championed has waned away over the years of corruption, indecison, and lack of transparency. The Ramli issue only serves to show that BN intends to “invent” cards on the fly, and to sacrifice a police officer to show that the nation DOES care about anti-corruption efforts; and perhaps a double-up to distract people from the Lingam Tape.

      The Archer,

      Although caution should be taken when articles are picked for one’s blog, I don’t think that you should be so critical, and assume without much thought that his views envelope that of the whole DAP. I believe that another member of the DAP, M.Kulasegaran did bring this up;

      http://kula.blogsome.com/2007/11/01/unrelenting-demolition-of-hindu-temples/

    29. to archer- friendly information.

      please refer to the Star newspaper today’s issue , a motion was raised by dap to discuss the demolition of 100 years Hindu Temple. the motion was shot down by the deputy speaker.

      with due respect Sir Archer. none of the MIC nor PPP nor Gerakan or any bn component parties MP raise this urgent matter.

      again, i share with you your grief ( if you are a Hindu ) and wish you happy deepavali. unfortunately, many in power forgot that they are mortals and act like Lords. but trust history ,that many mighty empires did collapsed when arrogance and corruption crept into them.

      i hope you are happy now.

      as for Dear storm fury,
      libra 2 means well, because there are forces within and without to disrupt the agendas of our causes. how would you feel, if accusation is hurled towards you without first clarifying the facts.

      and we are concerned about the State in which Malaysia is now, that’s why we are passionate. but we dont run amok. when the taliban took over afghansitan, centuries carving of a buddhist statute was blown down. i dont see any buddhist running amok.

      as i stated , the batin must be suci before the zahir. maybe the muslim brethen and sister among us will know what i mean. it means it is pointless to look clean and holy outside (physical) but our heart is unclean. and among the stains in our heart are egoism, hatred, arrogance , and disrespect.

      we who truely love our country- Malaysia.

      to all friends of Hindu Religiion. happy deepavali. history writes that Mahamat Ghandi was and is a great man and “AHIMSA” is him. history will never remember the tyrants and corrupts and hypocrites for their sayings.

    30. StOrmFury said,” Libra2, we should not bluntly accuse other people….”
      I agree we should not be emotional and make unfounded accusations but in this case ‘the archer’ has made totally unfounded accusations against Kit as though he (Kit) has never defended Indian rights.
      And the tone of his posting is plain rude. He was not requesting to do something. He was falsely accusing Kit, thus my repartee.

    31. to sir archer.

      friendly reminder.

      please refer to the star newspaper today that Dap raise an urgent motion to discuss the demolition of the 100 yrs old Hindu temple, but was shot down by the speaker speaker. non of the barisan component party members ie mic took a stand.

      to you archer( if you are a Hindu ). happy deepavali to you and family.

      storm fury.
      libra 2 was merely expressing the truth and equally passionate about the issue. we dont run amok as some others will do.
      we dont create problems with intent to incite hatred.

    33. Why is this not blogged??!! What is happening in Malaysia??? We need to spread awareness and blog this whether we are Malay, Chinese, Indian or Lain-lain.

      TOPIC: BLACKED OUT NEWS: Temple Demolition in Padang Jawa
      ==================================================
      this news was nowhere to be found on the newspapers, view video at:

      http://www.malaysiakini.tv/?vid=1450

      Samy: Stop temple demolitions or risk Indian votes
      Oct 31, 07 5:25pm
      http://www5.malaysiakini.com/news/74206

      MIC chief S Samy Vellu has urged the government to stop the demolition of Hindu temples or it will risk alienating Indian Malaysian voters.

      This appears to be the first time Samy Vellu had spoken out strongly on the issue which has been dogging the Hindu community, particularly in Selangor and Kuala Lumpur, for the past few years.

      Samy Vellu, who is also the works minister, said he had raised the issue several times during meetings with state government leaders but temples were still being demolished.

      The most recent example, was the demolition of a temple in Kampung Rimba Jaya, Shah Alam, yesterday which Samy Vellu said had “hurt the feelings” of residents there.

      “It is common knowledge that the majority of Indian voters, if not all Indians in Malaysia, support Barisan Nasional.

      “Thus, I urge the relevant authorities not to resort to the drastic action of demolishing temples even though they are not built legally,” he said in a statement faxed from the Works Ministry.

      ‘We have no choice’

      Samy Vellu said the Hindu community was forced to build temples on private or state land because the community did not have land to do so.

      “I have on many occasions asked state and local governments to allot land for temples in every residential area, but it has yet to be implemented.

      “Thus, the Hindu community has no choice but to build temples on land that is not theirs,” he added.

      The veteran politician went on to quote the first pillar of the Rukun Negara – Belief in God – adding that no one should be punished for practising their respective religion.

      He also urged the relevant authorities to seek alternative land for temples which have been demolished or were scheduled to be demolished.

      ‘No compromise’

      The MIC president suggested that small temples be combined together on a larger piece of land.

      “I will not compromise or tolerate anyone that does not take this issue seriously. I would also advise the Hindu community to only build temples on land where they are allowed to,” he said.

      Yesterday, Samy Vellu visited Kampung Karuppiah after the demolition had taken place.

      According to vernacular press reports, he was pelted with sticks and stones by angry residents.

      He also reportedly lodged a complaint with Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi who was attending a function nearby.
      ——-

      Shah Alam council blamed for bloody fracas Nov 1, 07 7:34pm
      http://www5.malaysiakini.com/news/74289

      Malaysia Hindu Sangam, the umbrella body for people of that faith, today blamed the Shah Alam City Council for the violence which occurred during the demolition of a temple in Kampung Rimba Jaya on Tuesday.

      MHS president A Vaithilingam said MBSA mayor Za’ba Che Rus had no control over his enforcement officers who were throwing stones into the temple while a special religious ceremony was taking place (left).

      “The confrontational retaliatory action by the MBSA enforcement officers was in our opinion the cause for the violence in the temple,” said Vaithilingam in a faxed statement.

      When contacted for clarifications, Vaithilingam said eye-witness reports claim MBSA enforcement officers were initially pelted with stones from a group of unknown individuals.

      “But it did not come from the temple. How can they (MBSA personnel) attack devotees like that? No enforcement body in the world attacks people with stones,” he said.

      In his written statement, Vaithilingam said those injured at the hands of MBSA enforcement officers included T Ganesa, the Selangor chairperson of MHS.

      However, he stressed that the police were restrained compared to MBSA officers.

      Against procedures

      Vaithilingam also slammed Za’ba for allegedly personally telling temple authorities at 9am on Tuesday that the temple was to be demolished in the next two hours.
      He said the temple was a large structure with many facilities that cannot be relocated in the short period of time.

      “What else can the innocent devotees do when given only two hours? Attempting to destroy deities (in the temple) is very sensitive and is considered an insult to the Hindu community,” he added.

      Vaithilingam also criticised Za’ba for reneging an agreement between MBSA, the Selangor state government, MIC officials and temple officials on Oct 28.

      The deal apparently gave the temple a grace period until Deepavali celebrations. Deepavali will be celebrated by all Hindus on Nov 8.

      Vaithilingam also urged MIC leaders to open dialogue with leaders of the Hindu Rights Action Force (Hindraf) to resolve the matter.

      Five-inch parang wound

      In a separate development, Hindraf legal advisor P Uthayakumar revealed that some of the devotees who suffered injuries during the scuffle were not given immediate medical attention.

      Citing an example, Uthayakumar said that he witnessed one detainee who had a five-inch cut on the head while he was detained at the Section 11 Shah Alam police station.

      He claimed that the wound was inflicted by a MBSA enforcement officer with a parang. He added that the detainee was not given medical attention even after 24-hours of the incident.

      “Only after persistent appeals by Hindraf did the police take this victim to the hospital,” said Uthayakumar, in a letter to Attorney-General Abdul Gani Patail. The letter was made available to Malaysiakini.

      In his letter, Uthayakumar urged Abdul Gani to take immediate action against those responsible for the injuries suffered by devotees during the open fracas.

      Uthayakumar and three other lawyers were arrested while accompanying devotees who were lodging a report on the incident in Kampung Karuppiah, which is located within Kampung Rimba Jaya.

      ——-

      Kg Rimba Jaya fracas: Four lawyers released Bede Hong | Oct 31, 07 2:30pm
      http://www5.malaysiakini.com/news/74192

      The Kampung Rimba Jaya in Padang Jawa, near Shah Alam was a chaotic scene last night when residents tried to prevent the Shah Alam City Hall from demolishing their houses.

      The residents’ attempt to save their homes turned physical and bloody when scores were hurt in the ensuing melee.

      Fifteen residents were also arrested and are now being detained at the Shah Alam Section 11 police station.

      In the end, over 200 houses, a 100-year-old temple and a surau have been levelled to the ground by the authorities. Even the presence of MIC president S Samy Vellu could not save the houses and the temple.

      And later in the day, four lawyers – human rights lawyers P Uthayakumar and P Waythamoorthy as well as DAP lawyers M Manoharan and S Ganabathi Rao – were also arrested by the police when they attempted to enter Section 11 police station to help the release of the residents.

      The police have today obtained a four-day remand order against the residents, said DAP legal bureau chief A Sivanesan. However at 5.30 in the evening, a 16-year-old boy and a 52-year-old woman were released.
      The lawyers were all released on police bail at about 7.45pm.
      When contacted Sivanesan also said that at least two residents suffered serious injuries.

      “A woman, in her fifties and a 16-year-old boy suffered great injury. Their clothes are soaked with their own blood and they are still wearing them,” he said. These are two who were released by the police in the evening.

      Tamil dailies today also carried images of another man with head injury.

      Lawyers manhandled

      Earlier in the day today, the police took statements from the four lawyers.
      The lawyers were arrested for creating a scuffle in front of the Section 11 police station after they were refused entry by the police.

      “Their purpose there was to assist residents lodge reports against the state government and relevant authorities. They were also to inquire on the status of those arrested and detained,” said Hindraf lawyer R Gengadharan when contacted today.

      “The conduct of arresting and detaining by the police is unjustified,” he said.

      Last night, Waythamoorthy lodged a police report against the conduct of the police in arresting him and the other three lawyers.

      In the report lodged at the same police station, Waythamoorthy said that he was manhandled and had a machine-gun pointed at him when he inquired as to why the lawyers were being refused entry.
      “I was pushed down and stepped on my leg, preventing me from getting up,” his report stated.
      “I injured my head, my back and elbow…the same constable threatened to shoot me if I didn’t go out and his machine-gun was pointed at me while I was still on the ground,” he said.

      He added in his report that he and the other lawyers faced racial abuses from the other police personnel at the station, with one policeman allegedly stating that he would “make sure I’m kept in lock up tonight”.

      Baton-charged

      Meanwhile, human rights activist S Kumaravel, 44, said a surau was also demolished by council authorities in the eviction exercise yesterday.

      The surau is located in Rimba Jaya, about one kilometre away from the temple. The Sri Maha Mariaman temple is located in Rimba Jaya. Residents from nearby Kampung Karuppiah carry out their prayers at the temple.

      Kumaravel, who is Jaringan Rakyat Tertindas (Jerit) exco member, said over 200 houses in Rimba Jaya were demolished in the exercise that saw at least 300 police personnel, including the Federal Reserve Unit, participating.

      Rimba Jaya is mostly populated by Malays while Kampung Karuppiah is mostly populated by Indians.

      The MPSA enforcement officers were beating people with batons, said Kumaravel.

      “I saw an enforcement officer pulling out a knife and waving it around threateningly,” said Kumaravel.

      It took almost three hours to demolish the Sri Maha Mariaman temple. The temple’s nursery was the first to be demolished when the exercise began yesterday morning.

      After a pause at noon, the demolition continued at 2pm and continued for another three hours amidst resistance from at least 400 residents. Several hundred council enforcement officers were also present.

      News reports said stones were thrown between both sides.

      Shots fired

      In addition to that, today’s Sin Chew Daily reported that police fired several shots at a lorry, puncturing at least one tyre. Nanyang Siang Pau reported that five shots were fired. The report said several residents had tried to escape the police in the lorry. They were later arrested.

      There were also accounts of a stabbing, but which could not be verified as yet.

      “They should have waited until Deepavali is over before they begin demolishing the temple. At least the residents have somewhere to pray,” said Kumaravel.

      Early this morning, he had lodged a police report at Section 11 police station against the state government for ordering the eviction exercise.

      “The police told us that the order was from the Menteri Besar (Mohd Khir Toyo). There was no court order to demolish the surau or the temple,” he added.

      Tamil dailies also reported that the residents had shown their anger towards Samy Vellu for not doing anything to help them. Samy Vellu is quoted as saying that he would raise the matter with Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi.

      ——-

      Temple demolition motion shot down Yoges Palaniappan | Nov 1, 07 4:37pm
      http://www5.malaysiakini.com/news/74264

      An opposition motion to debate the temple demolition in Kampung Rimba Jaya, Shah Alam yesterday was rejected by the Dewan Rakyat deputy speaker.

      Deputy Speaker Lim Si Cheng rejected M Kulasegaran’s (DAP-Ipoh Barat) motion on the grounds that it “does not warrant immediate action” as the temple was located at a squatter area and that matter has been referred to the court.

      Kulasegaran, in his urgent motion, said that the Indian community in the country is puzzled, shocked and saddened by the demolition of the 100-year old Sri Maha Mariamman temple.

      It was reported that several hundred police personnel and local council authorities clashed with the residents who sought to stop the demolition.

      According to Hindu Rights Action Force (Hindraf), at least 300 police personnel and council workers had cordoned off the temple yesterday morning.

      It said council workers began hurling stones and beating devotees with sticks and batons when they tried to halt the demolition.

      Kulasegaran described the demolition as “an extreme act which is unconstitutional, criminal, despicable and unrelenting.”

      “Temple demolitions have been going on in the country for the past few years and has worsened recently,” said Kulasegaran.

      Without notice

      “The temple was demolished cruelly by 500 policemen, FRU personnel and local authorities without even respecting or considering the feelings of Hindus,” he said, adding that the demolition was exercised without proper notice and procedures.

      “250 houses and a surau, for which an alternative land has been given, were also demolished in the exercise.”

      Kulasegaran explained that the temple devotees were kept from the temple area yesterday by Indian gangsters hired by the contractors who broke temple deities which are scared for Hindus.

      “The clean and beautiful temple, which used to be the place of worship for more than 1,500 devotees, was torn down using tractors and other machineries yesterday,” he said.

      He said that demolition is against the Article 11 of the Federal Constitution which guaranteed freedom of religion in the country.

      Also, he added, to destroy a place of worship is a serious crime under the Penal Code.

      Kulasegaran urged the government to immediately stop the demolition of temples to preserve the culture and identity of Indians in the country.
      Sweeping under the carpet

      In a statement issued later, Kulasegeran said that the rejection was unfair, undemocratic and against all decent norms of fair and adequate debate in a democratic society.

      “Parliament is the place for elected representatives to bring up issues of public importance but urgent motions for debate are routinely rejected in an off-handed brutal manner that makes a mockery of democratic practice,” said Kulasegaran.

      “The speaker has shut out an issue of great importance by not allowing a full and frank debate thus preventing the government from making a stand or policy statement of its attitudes to Hindus in the country,” he added.

      “By denying the motion the government has swept another issue of great public importance under the carpet.”

    35. What we are facing is not just police Corruption. Nor political corruption only. The whole society – cutting across racial and religious lines – is corrupt, including private sector, whether corporate, banking, insurance etc in which it is becoming more a rule rather than exception that everyone wants his cut, and all benefits and patronage of business is distributed on a I scratch your back and yours mine basis. Who in business or holding position of influence and power in corporations can sincerely without hypocrisy deny this? In recent years, it has become even more acute as society becomes more competitive, and prices of goods and services and costs of living keep rising along with expectations of better standard of living and also a sense of insecurity that the country is like a sinking Titanic, so better hoard up some retirement nest.

      If the common rakyat cannot resist temptations and blandishments of bribes, is it realistic to expect that those in power can? I am not postulating corruption is a malaise that we should all acquiesce to but it is extremely difficult to feel a sense of great outrage at those abusing their power to make money when there is a nagging suspicion that many who feel outraged do so out of a lack of opportunity to be in position of power to do likewise rather than an innate abhorrence towards unfair gain at the expense of others! I think we’re all becoming hypocrites. If we’re not then our threshold of tolerance for this kind of sheninegans becomes markedly higher and we say, “Aiyah this is normal lah”.

      Like it or not the culture of corruption is deeply ingrained and has broadened down from those in power to those amongst the general populace.

      But just so that we’re not too harsh in judgment of ourselves, it should be recollected that corruption is also rampant in most other societies supposedly more advanced and first world than us. The core and kernel of corruption is always there. The veneer (pretence buttressed by institutional safeguards) around such core/kernel, hypocritically denying and fighting against it (corruption) is just thicker – but it does not mean it cannot be pierced, as once in while we read in the news it is (eg Enron scandal). Who dares say that there is no corruption in (say) the US, bastion of democracy or good governance? I want to make clear that I am postulating a general position. In every general position there are always exceptional individuals. We cannot however proceed on exceptions to prescribe for the general. :)

    36. Pagal makan padi. What is the root cause of crimes and loose character? Why is there an increase of immoral tendancies? It started long before a man grows up to be a child and then to an adult. It starts from the very core of a person who is living in an environment or a society. Just by going after the criminal act alone will not give a permenent solution to this alarming problem. The government needs place more effort in nurturing the societies that we live in. Look at all the “soft” aspects of life in this country. Look at religion, look at human rights, look at justice etc. Acting on the crime alone is the “fire fighting” part. Let’s look at what started the fire.

    37. Jeffrey, QC, said:

      “But just so that we’re not too harsh in judgment of ourselves, it should be recollected that corruption is also rampant in most other societies supposedly more advanced and first world than us. The core and kernel of corruption is always there. The veneer (pretence buttressed by institutional safeguards) around such core/kernel, hypocritically denying and fighting against it (corruption) is just thicker – but it does not mean it cannot be pierced, as once in while we read in the news it is (eg Enron scandal). Who dares say that there is no corruption in (say) the US, bastion of democracy or good governance? I want to make clear that I am postulating a general position. In every general position there are always exceptional individuals. We cannot however proceed on exceptions to prescribe for the general.”

      I put it to you, Jeffrey, that this is flimsy ground to excuse the state of affairs in Bolehland. In the US, the prosecutors do their jobs, the courts do their jobs. Without fear or favour. The court rulings are made public, in most cases instantaneously. In Bolehland, you can’t trust the prosecution, and you can’t trust the judiciary. How do you live your life in Bolehland knowing that justice can be bought ? I mean the average person doesn’t care because all they ever appear in court would be for a traffic summons, but if you get into a huge dispute over a land matter or over a business matter, how confident are you of getting justice? How confident are you that you can never be framed for something that you did not do ?

      Of course, justice in places like China or India could well be similarly disposed, but then I’d rather take my chances in these places because of the economic upside than to take my chances in Bolehland. This, in a nutshell, is why our FDI is declining.

    38. The Independent Commission against Corruption (ICAC) of Hong Kong even pursue corruption cases for as long as 25 years and even when the corrupt cops are dead and the ill-gotten wealth and properties are in other countries’ jurisdictions. Read the following sites:

      http://www.asianpacificpost.com/portal2/402881910674ebab010674f4b30a1317.do.html

      http://www.asianpacificpost.com/portal2/ff8080810ba5e679010bbad57f1d0176_Sgt__Hon_Shum.do.html

      http://sc.icac.org.hk/gb/www.icac.org.hk/text/eng/cases/godber/index.html

      If the Government and the ACA have the same zeal, then we will reap the same rewards that Hong Kong is enjoying now. Read:

      http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-07/2006-07-25-voa53.cfm?CFID=227668483&CFTOKEN=76259930

      If not, then we may go the same way as Papua New Guinea. Read:

      http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Mafia-corrupt-police-cripple-PNG/2005/02/18/1108709435557.html

      Now do you understand why crime, particularly organised crime, has been on the surge these few years? Somebody better tell the Prime Minister we are looking at the abyss.

    39. ##anakbaram Says:

      Pagar makan padi. What is the root cause of crimes and loose character? Why is there an increase of immoral tendancies?###

      one of the chief cause is We let the same PARTY rule from a bit too long time.

      So, if the corrupt people n are protected by the people holding the power, the root would grow deeper, as passed from one generation to the next..

      We only can clean up the corruption when nobody is power protecting the culprits…. We need a strong alternative government to steer the country to the right path

    40. justiciary Says:

      November 2nd, 2007 at 16: 31.36
      Hi,archer.Please aim properly and if u want to shoot,u can always aim at your countryman the useless SEMI VALUE.Don’t become a stupid ignoramus.

      ==============================================

      justiciary justiciary justiciary
      you think like a backward ignomarus…fancy you caling others that…youre most probably very very stupid at that too although i’m just guessing.
      how stupid and backward it is for you to say that a problem affecting the indians in mlaysia must be solved by mic? really stupid if you ask me. after all, especially since dap is hell bent on a malaysia for all malaysians, hence it follows that the dap should be very very concerned about issues of high sensitivity such as this REGARDLESS of which community is affected….it’s the MALAYSIAN community that matters in the equation.
      mybe ypu will have the time and capacity to recover from your ignorance if you dont spend all your time accusing others.
      go back to school if you need to…although then again you must have just learnt that word from the dictionary in a “one word a day” quest and was dying to use the word….go practice somewhere else!

    41. fillibuster says:

      The Archer,

      Although caution should be taken when articles are picked for one’s blog, I don’t think that you should be so critical, and assume without much thought that his views envelope that of the whole DAP. I believe that another member of the DAP, M.Kulasegaran did bring this up;

      ===============================================

      lets face it that the dap is synonymous with lim kit siang…when you think dap, you think lim kit siang…and this is the blog that one would read for anything dap…kula may have brought it up in parliament but yb kit has not considered it important enough for his blog…the main blog related to the dap….
      ypu are being presumptuos to think that not much thought had gone in prior to my posting…let me tell you that it is through observation of all isuues highlighted in ybkit’s (read dap) blog….
      if you tell me that you would not associate the leader of the opposition’s blog with his core party, then you need to think a lot mre….that coould only mean that the leader of the oppsition is wasting all malaysian’s time by posting articles here…so what do we base our votes for dap on? some divine intuition?

    42. The basis of corruption comes directly from human greed. As such I suppose it first began when humans (cavemen) left their hunting
      and fruit gathering ways to learn to live in agricultural
      communities.Along the way some would have learnt how to bribe their community head for more food or more clothing and when that works others would be quick to pick that up.As society becomes more sophisticated so will be bribing techniques to gain favours or advantage in life.Hence there is no nation that is free from corruption.
      Corruption is highly destructive to any nation morally and economically.It would certainly be in the nation’s interest to stem out corruption to a large extent.In fact one of the important reasons why foreign investors prefer to put their money in a particular country over and above another is because corruption is less by comparison.In fact in the corruption index, Malaysia fared fared far too miserably.
      All nations with good governance must design institutions to stem out if not at least curb this innate basic human nature and that is
      greed.I would certainly agree with Godfather in brushing aside Jeffrey’s attempt at trivialising the extent of corruption prevailing in this nation.The corruption in Malaysia is horrendous but the most shocking thing is that nobody seem to be doing anything about it.Give us an LKY and you will probably see many heads will roll!!

    43. “..when there is a nagging suspicion that many who feel outraged do so out of a lack of opportunity to be in position of power to do likewise ..” Jeffrey QC

      This is why corruption is embedded in our psyche, has become a culture, is a weapon of the rich in their quest for more riches and not to forget power as much as it is an affordable tool for the less rich and the less powerful to remain in the game. The access to the seat of power and the ability to bribe a powerful politician, a senior public official is a privilege envied by those who have no such access. I believe this is what our Jeffrey QC is referring to when he wrote about the “outrage by some at the lack of opportunity” by certain groups.

      This is more a reason as to why corruption has a way of perpetuating itself. It is important that we break the cycle of corruption or be condemned forever fighting against it. It is not easy because it has a become a culture encouraged by our business community whose members compete to bribe the politically connected and the politically powerful. Among many in the business community, the ability to bribe one’s way through has long become a source of ‘pride’ and ‘admiration’.

    44. What’s the big deal? Even if he is convicted, maximum fine is only RM100K. He has tens of millions, so this is but a small sum. He will graciously pay the fine and still be a millionaire.

    45. If there is a truly independent ACA to prove corruption in this country, Malaysia will lose entire cabinet members including Ahmad Badawi.

      Malaysia will be “headless” by the time.

    46. The 27M Cop is more frightening than you think. I hope YB Lim Kit Siang can pursue a few questions with the YB Deputy Minister of Internal Security.

      1. Why did the Deputy Minister issued directive to the Director of CCID bypassing his line of command?

      By doing he is bypassing any control of CCID. No wonder no peace in peace hill.

      2. According to CCID Director’s press statement, directive was to investigate Al Long. Why go investigate illegal gambling? Why not focus on Ah Long? Why has the deputy minister stop going after the Ah Long? How many Ah Long has he banished?

      Big Hooha but no result. Just one “Tengku” fellow for illegal gambling.

      There are so many differences in the statements. It is so confusing to understand who is telling the truth.

    47. YB,
      It is indeed very sad to hear that this stupid monkey people got nothing to do to demolition of the temple.im not into politic or gud in english.i just want to express myself here.ALL I CAN SAY THIS.
      TO ALL INDIAN
      U have to pass this message to all Indian to wake up now dont vote for BN,MIC.They are useless.think of themself they dont work for u. Vote them out this time. Now they do this to the temple a holy places for prayers. WHAT NEXT ? THINK THINK THINK HARD.
      OUR future INDIAN are getting worst.Go tell this to all INDIAN to WAKE UP. HAPPY DEEPAVALI

    48. “The prosecution of the “RM27 million cop” reminds Malaysians of two serious allegations about corruption in the police force …” KIT

      I don’t know if it reminds me of anything except the rule among thieves that when you sucessfully milk the system be prepared to share the proceeds of your ill-gotten gains with those who wield the power.

      It is the ‘system’ that has allowed crooks to get away. Are we now being asked to believe that the same ‘system’ is turning on itself??

    49. Tax evasion is a crime. Tax avoidance is not. When a police officer has a wife who has no source of income of her own, who owns a BMW is that not proof of corruption per se?? When a senior civil servant especially those in law enforcement lives in a multi-million dollar mansion, is that not proof of corruption per se?? It is certainly a cause for an exhaustive investigation by the Inland Revenue Department. If assets and income are declared and taxes are paid, the IRD still needs to know how those assets were acquired.

      In the U.S. the IRS (Inland Revenue Service) has powers of arrest etc much like the FBI. What powers have our IRD got?

    50. In Malaysia’s case how do we stem out or curb corrupt practices? It is so corrupt to the core that every institution in this country is made dysfunctional by it. Where do we begin?? Mind you the analogy of the case of terminal cancer is apt.Can any doctor on this planet earth cure patients diagnosed with terminal cancer?

    51. This is only the tip of the iceberg, maybe much lesser.

      How efficient are the IRD or ACA themselves? Are they themselves taking $? Who knows? What we’re getting is only a small small small small fraction of the actual situation in the country.

      The increase of salary for civil servants does not ‘clean’ them. What a waste of public funds!

    52. Policeman can become millionaires. MP can become multimillionaires. Ministers will become billionaires. So what do you think our Pee M and Dep Pee M worth? ACA only goes after the rank and file of the govt. As far as politicians are concerned, they are the untouchable eventhough it is so glaring in the case of Zakaria, Close 1 eye Jasin, etc. Politicians have a different set of rules. This is Bolehland way of judgement

    55. “This was why I was so angry when the Deputy Internal Security Minister, Datuk Fu Ah Kiow,…”

      Uncle Kit, you should control your blood pressure. Although Fu deserves a tight slap in the face (to wake him up), I suggest you should just give it to him. There’s no point feeling angry with this type of people.

    56. “For this reason, I urgently call for an end to a “headless administration” and establishment of a new Royal Commission of Inquiry into police corruption and police at war with itself with crime becoming as endemic as corruption in the country in the past two years.”

      An end to a “headless administration” spells bad news for the opposition parties. But we all know it won’t end right, Uncle Kit?

    57. “In the US, the prosecutors do their jobs, the courts do their jobs. Without fear or favour” – Godfather.

      That is a naïve view and a factually incorrect statement. You should ask Undergrad2 – who lives and ought to know the system there better – tell you.

      Why do you think US Attorney General Alberto Gonzales (loyal to Bush) was forced to resign recently? He fired 8 federal prosecutors under him. The dismissals were appeared to be politically motivated. The U.S. prosecutors fired said they felt pressured to investigate and prosecute Democrats before elections. Thousands of documents released by the Justice Department show a White House plot, hatched shortly after the 2004 elections, to replace U.S. attorneys. At one point, senior White House officials suggested replacing all 93 prosecutors. In December 2006, 8 were ordered to resign. In 2004, Gonzales also authorized a secret domestic spying program over citizens that was unconstitutional. Pursuant to that, FBI agents, over a 3 year period, demanded telephone and Internet companies to hand over their customers’ personal information without official authorization. In 2002 he rendered legal opinion to Bush Govt that permitted interrogators to inflict mental and physical pain on terrorism suspects.

      The Americans say interrogation by torture is illegal so they do it in another way : they devise a program to outsource it, extraditing terrorism suspects from one foreign state to another for interrogation and prosecution. They say corruption and money politics are illegal but make rules to allow lobbying. Hence domestic corporations can contribute huge sums under the guise of campaign contributions to buy political influence of politicians. The moneys are paid into blind trust account(s). How do you think TDM could get a photo op with Bush if it were not through lobbyist Abramoff receiving US$1.2 million for his services? The Americans know corruption, like prostitution is as old as man’s history. What they cannot eliminate, they redefine certain aspects similar to corruption by legalizing them as legitimate lobby!

      Corrupt judges ? I don’t know where to begin. Take the high profile ones : In 1988 the House of Representatives voted overwhelmingly today to impeach Federal District Judge Alcee L. Hastings for 17 high crimes and misdemeanors. The charges involve conspiracy to accept a bribe, perjury and improper disclosures of confidential information. Find out why Judge John N. Kirkendall of Michigan resigned in 2005. The New York Supreme Court had a case of a judge bribed in a murder case, In re Brennan; The Ohio Supreme Court had a case of a judge bribed in a murder case, Ohio v McGettrick, United States v Federal Appeals Judge Martin T. Manton, (judge who took $186,000 in bribes. For better overview read “The Corrupt Judge: An Inquiry into Bribery and Other High Crimes and Misdemeanors in the Federal Courts by Joseph Borkin.

      Harvard Professor Dershowitz, became famous for arguing successfully Hustler magazine’s and its publisher Larry Flynt’s defence against a libel case brought by Reverend Jerry Falwell. The case was dramatized in Hollywood’s film “Larry Flynt (1996)” starring Woody Harrelson, Edward Norton and Courtney Love. In “Letters to a Young Lawyer” Dershowitz, speaks of the corruption in the American legal and judicial system. He advises all to be “suspicious of all legal and judicial institutions. Trust no one in power, including — especially — judges. Don’t take judicial opinions at face value. Go back and check the transcript & record. Cite-check the cases. You will be amazed how often you will find judges ‘finessing’ the facts and the law for ulterior motives.

      World over, non-rich folk are often jailed – for petty offences some of which are without harmful consequences or victims – which they cannot afford to pay fines or afford legal counsel – where the real offense is that of poverty.

      And world over the rich and politically connected are (comparatively) rarely jailed – even after committing serious offences.

      And world over human greed lurks just below a veneer of ethics, easily pierced especially when possessed of power .

      This is the general position varying in degree from place to place, whether we’re talking of US, UK, Malaysia or Nigeria or Australia.

      But don’t take the words of the Whites for it that they’re so much less corrupt than the rest of us.

    58. Anyone here thinks that our cops are corrupt or brutal – and not cops elsewhere or for that matter in US – is misguided. It is the same :power and greed. If you are not in US, you see the film “Serpico” starring Al Pacino of ‘The Godfather’s fame.

      Do the many who protest here against corruption – or crony deals – have any qualms if by some fortuitous change of events they are landed with some plum contracts dished out by some friendly UMNO ministers whereby one could make a couple of millions working on crony deal? Why I recall here at least someone here who admitted he worked for a crony deal farmed out by a trustee of UMNO which enabled him to have insight regarding how nothing was in black and white so that after a change of power there would be nothing to disclose who took what and how much for purposes of acountability. Before we condemn the next guy, we should first ask whether if we’re afforded the same opportunity we would rise above corruption.

    59. Most – and certainly not all – people here or elsewhere are not saints. They are what is called salt of the earth. They may be interested in politics but their main concern is themselves, their families, their spouses and children and their colective welfare. They rail against corruption because it favours the few politically connected or politrically powerful who could garner all kinds of “unfair” financial privileges over and above and at the expense of the masses and multitudes who put them there in position of trust in the first place by their votes, and outrage ensues when trust is breached with impunity. But it is only in this context. If these very same protesters against corruption were somehow “roped” in by the tentacles of political influence – not neccesarily as politican holding public office but his proxy or enabler, advisor or busines partner – to be placed at a vantage point to join the select few to amass huge wealth personally for themselves, their loved ones in the family and generations to come, the question that must be answered honestly is whether these same protestors will refuse the offer and say, “no, this is corruption, this is conflicts of interest, this is cronyism, I want to have nothing of this, this is bad for Malaysia?” How many would take this ethical position to say no when to do so is to say “no” as well not only to themselves personally the start up and headstart in life for their children and their children’s children – to break that generational cycle of poverty of financial mediocrity? Would “no” be fair to the financial future of spouses and children? When does ethics come in or go as balanced against not only one’s personal interest but one’s family’s interest and even generational interest? I am not advocating or trivialising corruption but just posing the basic – ethical – question whether if we can really do no better than the next guy if presented opportunity, is it not hypocritical to keep condemning the next guy for doing that which he is afforded the opportunity? How righteous can our moral indignation against corruption be when it is moral indignation tainted by jealousy with a halo?

    60. Jeffrey,
      You used the term the “salt of the earth” but the meaning is totally alien to me. Have you heard of the verse “the light of the world and the salt of the earth” in the scripture? The light of the world is to be exemplary to others while the salt of the earth is to prevent evil things from happening, i.e. the salt is supposed to prevent the decay of individual or society. In fact to be the light of the world and the salt of the earth is to be God’s disciples. So I don’t know exactly what are you talking about.

    61. “The Americans say interrogation by torture is illegal so they do it in another way : they devise a program to outsource it, extraditing terrorism suspects from one foreign state to another for interrogation and prosecution.” Jeffrey QC

      Astute observation by Jeffrey!

      The U.S. government not only outsource jobs to China and India. They also outside torture to countries with long track records of torture to do their dirty job. Bush was mostly right when he said during a White House press conference that the U.S. government does not torture. Why should the U.S. government torture when it can make others do its dirty job for them??

    63. Why do you think they keep detainees from Afghanistan and Iraq in Guantanamo Bay?? So they are not subject to U.S. law. In the U.S. it does not matter who you are or which part of the planet you parachuted from. For as long as your two feet are firmly on U.S. soil there is one law – and that is the same one a U.S. citizen faces.

      The U.S. government has passed laws to deny persons suspected of terrorist activity, their constitutional rights of due process. The problem?? The problem is that nowhere is the term ‘terrorist’ and ‘terrorist activity” defined. Through the recently passed REAL ID Act, the U.S. government has introduced the crime of ‘guilt by association’ to deny Americans and non-citizens alike of their rights.

      So before you go heaping praises on the United States, think again!

      I’m not free to lift the phone and talk about anything and everything under the sun. My e-mails are never private. When I purchase or borrow books to read from the bookstore or the public library, all my particulars are being recorded without me realizing it. My phones are routinely tapped by the FBI.

      They are short of troops to fight their dirty war in Iraq, the most unpopular of wars since Vietnam. The recently drafted Dream Act failed to pass the House of Representatives which if passed would send thousands of undocumented aliens to Iraq to help fight the war in return for U.S. citizenship for them and their family. They are not even free to die for their country.

      The U.S. – a bastion of democracy?? I’m not sure any more.

    64. I don’t think the readers here are that naive to think that American democracy is the panacea to all our ills or that America is the ultimate beacon of hope. What we are saying is that we should not be comparing the shenanigans of certain politicians or civil servants in the US with our den of thieves. BN wants the rakyat to think that way – show me a corrupt-free country, and if you can’t, you should not be complaining about Bolehland. They argue – as Jeffrey appears to do – that corruption is everywhere, in every country, and that everything is relative. Of course BN uses this as an excuse for its failings in Bolehland. I say this is pure BS – we should strive to be better than others, cleaner than others, and more transparent than others.

      Jeffrey and Undergrad2: it is the system of checks and balances that differentiate the US from third world countries like Bolehland. Mahathir dismantled our system of checks and balances and that’s why Bolehland will be forever condemned to an eternity of rape and pillage by its leaders.

    65. Godfather, I don’t think Jeffrey came close to condoning corruption because no one country can get rid of corruption completely. I must admit he appeared to be doing so at certain points. But the point he was making was that groups compete to outdo one another and this strengthens the culture of corruption in Malaysia. I regard this as self-evident and is proof of how serious and endemic corruption has become.

      You’re right about the system being more transparent in the U.S.

      As for democracy, and about the U.S. remaining that shining beacon of democracy, that is less true today – this being a direct response to the event of 9/11. Constitutional rights of the average citizen are under attack in the fight against terrorism. Liberals claim that it is mostly an excuse, that the government is using legislation like the U.S. Patriots Act to legitimize executive encroachments into the First, Second Amendments etc of the U.S. Constitution. Talk about supremacy of the Constitution! The doctrine of the separation of powers is facing a serious threat in a country that gives birth to it!

      When Jeffrey talks about corruption and says, “This is the general position varying in degree from place to place, whether we’re talking of US, UK, Malaysia or Nigeria or Australia. But don’t take the words of the Whites for it that they’re so much less corrupt than the rest of us” he is only stating the obvious. He is only echoing our own thoughts on the issue. After all ‘corruption’ is the corollary of ‘power’ – where you find one you find the other. Isn’t corruption an example of an abuse of power?

    66. Godfather, well said.

      We are all talking about the peripheries again and not the fundamentals.

      First, in Malaysia, our PM is also the Finance Minister and Internal Security Minister. Even in a presidential system of government, the president has never amassed so much power like our PM. Of course to be fair to our present PM, he is just a good student of TDM who started all these nonsense. Now, if he hasn’t got the time or the faculty to handle the job of PM, how else can we expect him to also oversee the functions of Finance and Internal Security Ministries and also a new wife? Does any one know what is going on the Finance Ministry lately? Are we sure everything is fine? It is no wonder that things begin to fall apart.

      Second, contrary to the views expressed by many here, fighting corruption and abuse of power is never based on the “goodness” or ethical standard of individuals. I think most of you got it all wrong. Human nature can never be trusted. That is why some wise men (not necessary honest men) had come with the institutions of government that restrained the arbitrary power of individuals. That is why for good governments to exist over the long haul, it is essential to continue strengthening the rule of law, the supremacy of constitution, and the clear separation of power. All individuals, no matter how powerful, must be circumscribed by these restrains.

      The third point I want to make is that it is really oxymoron to assume that those in positions are somehow more honourable and ethical when in actual fact many of them are thieves and prostitutes in three piece suits. If most politicians are known to indulge in “politicking” to move up the rank or to sustain their power, what make us think that these same people once assuming positions of power will do the right and honourable things. So, whether we see a person in blue uniform or a minister, please just remember that his/her honesty and ethical standard is just like anyone of us or could be even worse. The sooner we get this notion into our heads, the less frustrated we will be.

      In this country, Cabinet Ministers declare their assets to the Prime Minister. You see, the Executive Branch of the Government is so protective of each other that they can’t even let the ACA know how much each of the Ministers has in his/her possession. Do you think this is logical? So to whom the Prime Minister declared his assets to. Subsume in this system is of course the Prime Minister is God. He account to no one as far as his assets is concerned.

      So in the nutshell, we must continue fighting to strengthen the institutions of government. There should be no exception. LKS, Guan Eng and all others, should be circumscribed by the same restrains I stated above. Otherwise it is one tyrant replaced by another.

    67. Leave ‘corruption’ alone and dwell on the issue of ‘racism’ for a second. Only these last few days these guys are talking about ‘the noose’ and how it was used against the ‘negroes’ in the early part of the last century – public lynching at which some white parents saw it fit to bring their children to educate them! Whites hanging a black American for looking at a white girl in the eye when passing her on the road???!!

      It is worse than hanging a Chinese man for dating a Malay girl.

    68. Undergrad 2, I think you are getting a little excessive. Many of the things you said are out of context and out of relevant timeframe. It is no point keep harping the past. Precisely, that is why many African Americans are still blaming the slavary for their lack of economic progress.

    69. “Human nature can never be trusted.” Limkamput

      God created Man in His image (actually the Bible in Genesis used the word ‘their’ and not ‘His’) until Eve came along and changed all that! Some 2,000 plus years since the Original Sin, men (and women) cannot be trusted not to eat the Forbidden Fruit which today takes many forms.

      Limkamput cannot trust himself. Man is born good but becomes bad. Wasn’t it Rousseau who said that?

    70. About human nature, there are Koranic verses that refers to the human nature.

      “A deep analysis of the verses reveals that, it is being said that God has granted the consciousness for judging good and bad, not that he has created man as good or bad. Now it is the free will of man that helps him decide which path to follow. It becomes clear from the Qur’an that the awareness about good and evil is a part of human nature. It neither accepts the notion that these are relative values nor it considers intention, pleasure, happiness and profitability its basis. “

    71. Limkamput,

      Yes “the light of the world and the salt of the earth” are in scripture. They are the subjects in the kingdom of God as described in Matthew 13. The 2 analogies refer to two types of people representing who we are (“Salt of the Earth”) and what we could become (“the Light”).

      In my own personal interpretation (right or wrong) of what scripture means, the light are the few who are trail blazers, the exceptional few who are passionate about their principles believed and suffer great trials and tribulations to fight for them so as to “light” the way for the rest of us to follow and to tell us what we could all become. They are, for examples, the Nelson Mendelas, William Wallaces, Abraham Lincolns (where principles are about Freedom) but they’re also the Napoleons and Hitlers (where principles are power). They (1 or 2%) exemplify the extremes that humanity has created. They are the ideologues. They are the Utopians.

      Now “Salt of the Earth” is the combination of both words – salt and earth. Earth is basic and refers to the natural condition of mankind, the world and society. It is a condition of brutish and cut throat survival of the fittest. Nothing else matters. The most selfish, the criminals (thief rapist and fraudsters) fit into this (also minority 5 to 6%) group who think only of themselves, their own survival and others be damned. The world if left only to itself (the earth), it will spoil and will become more and more defiled and putrid. It lacks the moral quality and life that it needs to cement relationships and to protect itself from moral breakdown.

      In between, the majority (90%) are in between the light and the earth. “Salt” as you well know as “preservative qualities. That is why salt fish can be preserved and why sometimes you would gargle salt to try ward off flu virus from attacking your nasal tracts. “Salt” is a necessary element for human survival.

      So salt of the Earth depict the multitudes noted for their worldliness, practical approach if you will; they are not bad as the “earth types”; neither are they saints and passionate and willing to die for their principles like martyrs like the “Light”. They care most for things people normally care food : material comfort, good marriage, spouses and children, good reputation or at least respectability (never mind what the actual character is) good jobs and good homes. Necessarily they are also probably most hypocritical. For some may have the innate human greed and selfishness to take advantage of others, to “steal” others money, others wives other jobs, but would not do so overtly or if chances of getting caught are great attracting bad consequences. At the same time, they are not the Light. They talk about principles as (say) Nelson Mendela did, they may lift a little to help if it is no cost, but they will not go al the way, join (for example) demonstrations where they are definitely going to be shot like the way some monks were in the streets of Yangon. They would give their lives for beliefs because they prioritize the normal things people cherish – their families, spouse, children, jobs and social respectability. They may go to temples of worship but they won’t be suicide bombers; they say adultery is bad but they excuse themselves when they visit prostitutes because that is just satisfying basic biological need and not adultery because it is not emotional premised. Worldliness, practicality, pragmatism, hypocrisy are all elements in character.

      It is the Salt of the Earth that preserves basic civilization, let it continue (hypocrisies notwithstanding), slowly inching the way, vacillating between occasional inspiration but mostly basic concerns and sometimes quiet desperation. For the Light (if they are turn out to be Hitlers, suicide bombers etc ), they’ll ruin civilization. If they are just earth without salt, there will be breakdown of society. Salt of the Earth are the glue that hold society together.

      In context, the Salt of the Earth are the ones who rail most against natural condition of corruption. They are taxed and much of it benefit the few privileged corrupt in power. Had it not been for these taxes unfairly sequestrated for purposes of those few powerful, the money may be saved for the welfare of themselves and the family. At the same time they would not be at the forefront to fight Power or to demonstrate against firing squad of riot police because their wives and children will say, why don’t you stay out of trouble, which they will heed. The acid test is when they themselves are given opportunities to indulge in the every thing – corruption – which they protest. If they could make millions (without adverse consequences) in cronyism with politicians that they disdain, would they desist on grounds of principles that corruption is bad per se? I should thinkj not. They are not in category of the Light. Their basic day to day concerns come first – good education for children, good comfort of home and car for family’s use etc.

      Salt of the Earth are everywhere whether in US or Malaysia – human nature same – but because they have 200 years of government, they could refine check balances better than the monkeys here, and they have turned hypocrisy to a better art form. That’s all.

      Knowing human nature, of course we have to advocate and devise check and balances – more to check our own tendencies – to keep corruption in check because otherwise the organisation of society and government will collapse.

      But even as we protest against corrupt officials, for the above reason, let us keep our perspectives and not get too worked up – stress distorts our judgment, make us think of migration as first option – when it is realised corruption stems from the very Salt of the Earth condition that we ourselves, or at least a great number of us, are equally susceptible to (if given an opportunity), and our repeated vociferous expressions of moral indignation becomes jarring to the ears of others, appearing much like envy with a halo.

    73. “Salt of the Earth are everywhere whether in US or Malaysia – human nature same – but because they have 200 years of government, they could refine check balances better than the monkeys here, and they have turned hypocrisy to a better art form. That’s all.” Jeffrey

      I cannot agree with you more.

    77. If the ACA is going to investigate the police force,politicians,immigration dept,custom dept,JPJ and all other government departments and not forgetting the Zakarias in the local council,the reopening of Pudu Jail will not be big enough to accommodate them.
      At the end of the day,Badawi will say everything is fine.

      How more worse can this disease of corruption gets?

    78. The Royal Police Commission is but a front for gomen to project a Cermelang image for all to see. Why not call it Rela Polis Carimakan!
      In this way, no one needs to really question, Hey aren’t the Polis doing their jobs – ie to CariMakan (whichever way you see it FIT). I would really want to recommend this. Sack all officers (the 40% our beloved former IGP Tun Hanif Omar suspected), bring in Multi-racial recruits and let us see how our Polis DiRaja Malaysia fares from here. The way it is now, no wonder it is tempting to join the Polis if you want to be a Millionaire (note: this has been the way it is since decades majority of PDRM recruits prefer to Ronda-Ronda than join the Polis Field Force in Ulu Kinta and risk their lives) Betul?

    80. The archer, I dont mean to be rude in this posting. However you can expect this will be the only post I will write about this issue.

      Your post is filled with biased viewpoint and written as though the whole political climate is heavily influenced and dependent upon the demolition of the temple and that YB Kit is the only person who can save the situation.

      If DAP is synonymous with YB Kit, does that mean that he is the only one in the party and the party dies if YB Kit no longer in charge of DAP? There’s a reason for parties to be formed so that each member in the party can perform their duties and work with each other efficiently. YB Kit’s viewpoint does not represents the whole of the party. That would then be synonymous with a party run by a tyrant. I do associate the leadership of a party with the core of the party but not upon one person only. Do you even vote for DAP assuming you did base your vote on DAP? I’d say not much thoughts have gone in prior to your postings. And you can base your votes on divine intuition if you wish.

      [quote]since dap is hell bent on a malaysia for all malaysians, hence it follows that the dap should be very very concerned about issues of high sensitivity such as this REGARDLESS of which community is affected[/quote]
      Kula already bring this up in the parliament. Is DAP still not concerned? Must somebody’s head roll or blood be spilled for the issue to be resolved? Please keep in mind some matter takes years to solve and not the way your simple-minded thoughts would think it will take an hour.

      [quote]it’s the MALAYSIAN community that matters in the equation.[/quote]
      Again, you failed to prove your point here. Corruption against the demolition of a temple. The priority would’ve naturally been on corruption because it affects EVERY Malaysian.

      Review your posts again and reflect it upon yourself. Much of what you wrote can best describe you.

    81. everyone can write to blog after blog day after expressing their flustration what those BN idiots have done to the country. I believe this flustration is going to stay in you for long long time if the BN continues to get strong support from rakyat in the coming general election. I hope everyone of us do ourself a favour and also helping the opposition by talking and convincing our friends, relatives, business associates etc. to vote for the opposition. A vote for opposition is a vote for hope in this country for our children and future generations. Those that continue to vote for BN are indeed killing their own children unknowingly in times to come.

    82. delon,
      no need to pre-qualify yourself before posting to justify what you are going to write as it is your right to air your views as you see fit.

      “Corruption against the demolition of a temple. The priority would’ve naturally been on corruption because it affects EVERY Malaysian.”…how pathetic! i suppose when the pig farmers in malacca were threatened…that was supremely important? so much so that it was posted here by the leader of the opposition and discussed thoroughly here as well by all and sundry since that affected the livelihood of a certain community…and spirituality and religion and the despicable act of demolition of places of worship and that are consistently …and i repeat that…. consistently.. being threatened and demolished are not as important (maybe not important at all!?) because spiitual beliefs of certain communities are irrelevant in your scale of importance? and even when they are cosistently being demolished , the leader of the opposition who talks of a malaysia for ALL malaysians doesnt see it as being important enough to highlight and discuss?

      my friend….do not situate the appreciation…appreciate the situation. nobody says that yb kit should solve the problems faced by the indian community..whether alone or otherwise…neither can samy vellu solve them …with or without the mic…when everyone is on a level playing field in wielding power, then we can blame the mic ..or even the dap for that matter, but the fact of the matter is that nobody is blaming yb kit for anything…but it makes a big difference when the pm takes a personal interest and commits himself to dealing with issues that are important to the nation as opposed to delegating it to say nazri…then we have an idea of how much the pm values the people affected by the situation(or otherwise).there are so many frustrated comments here about how the pm is disinterested because he keeps delegating everything to nazri right, and the implication is that he is really not interested right? well…yb kit is also not really interested about the temple demolitions as he was about the pig farmers and the negara kuku clown…and i am inclined to think that it could be that it is because of the communities that are involved…for others he just delegated and really doesnt seem to think that it is important enough for discussion here…lets just hypothesise for a bit and imagine that it was a buddhist temple or a church….he would have been as vocal as for the pig farmers..again i am inclined to think…. only inclined to think that ….and as a voter, when i form my opinion then that dictates my vote…no..not divine intuition (you obviously didnt get the spirit of that statement right)and….in your own words “Review your posts again and reflect it upon yourself. Much of what you wrote can best describe you”
      i am not a hindu, by the way….

    83. The archer, thanks for reminding me that. It may have come from reading your earlier postings, which I personally find distasteful.

      I may not have put it straight but I do believe the current state of affairs varies according to time. And more often than not, issues tend to get prioritised. I do believe that the temple issue is serious, do not get mistaken. Two issues that I notice in this page remains unsolved is corruption and temple demolition. As you might have been aware, this is not the first time it happens. From what I see, the “solution” that they came out with last year is not applied here.

      I can see you’re not satisfied that YB Kit did not mention anything about the temple issue. I will give the benefit of doubt here to him. The corruption in this country has reached a point where if it goes on for a few more years, there might as well be no democracy as judiciary is no longer independent of the executive. I’d really appreciate it if this issue receive the utmost attention before it gets out of hand. Indirectly, it might solve the temple issue as well because we do not see who is the person in charge of all these things as they do not reveal it publicly.

      Regardless if it is true or not, between PM delegating everything to Nazi and YB Kit delegate issues to persons who he think can handle better, I’d go with the latter. I read about what our PM have/have not been doing for a while now and I’m prepared for a change.

      About the kuku clown, I really wished that didn’t happen though. His new music video is just really lame.

      You might be interested to read the following I’ve just picked up.

      http://www.limkitsiang.com/archive/2006/nov06/lks4125.htm

      It doesn’t matter to me if you’re a Hindu or not, my comments would’ve just been the same. Bring this issue over to Kula’s blog as this page is really for corruption. I’d stop being offtopic here.

    84. PM…pls declare ur assets together with ur son in law’s and really show us u guys are clean.its very hard to find a leader in malaysia who doesnt amassed big bucks fr the people’s money and make a fool of its own people.the more i hear abt what our leaders of the present government say in the newspapers the more i see them talking…excuse me…kok.the pledges they made are just the pledges they cudnt wait to fill in their own pockets.if our PM is so honest and so keen in helping the people of this country…pls do something much more constructive than spending so much on a single guy to the space for the sake of making a name of urself.PM…i dun think u can or will ever wake up…or maybe ur just playing bodoh.ur smiling and grinning face wont last u for long and dun even think u will ever go to heaven if u ever cheat people in this country.the lawyers that marched down the streets are those who really representing justice of this country and u cud only think that its only bringing bad image to malaysia.just drop dead PM…its such a big issue and thrs something so wrong with it and all u can come up with is just that fak king remark?we knw u hv been encouraging folks to marry single mothers…but thr are more…much more urgent matters that needed ur attention…so pls stop wasting time making and dreaming of whr all the money should be spent on…not all malaysians fr all walks of life are fools like what u hv been thinking.and u shud knw MR PM…who are those dirty scumbags in ur ministry….u dun hv to feel guilty if u arent one of them.

    86. Jeffrey,
      Sorry, that is not how I understand the scripture. I agree with you with the “light of the world”, but not with “the salt of the earth”. When Christ said we ought to be the light of the world and the salt of the earth, he was asking us to be examplary to others (the light of the world) and at the same time to help prevent the decay in our society, i.e. to prevent evil things to happen, hence to be the salt, which is to preserve or prevent things from becoming bad. I think most Christian writers would go along with what I have just said. If you want to interprete the term “the salt of the earth” in your own specific way, I guess it is better not to use the exact words in the scriputure because it may confuse others.

    87. I think some of you have bashed America enough. It is easy to point out the double standards, the hypocrisies and the misdeeds in America. And by these inferences, we in Bolehland could feel justified of our own shortcomings. I think we have to be a little circumspect on all these. Yes, America is not perfect, but there the Presidents, Attorney General, Senate majority leaders and leaders at other levels do get impeached or forced to resigned or dismissed. There, the scandals do get blown up and the people do get the chance to say through the mass media. For goodness sake, please don’t come back and tell me that the media in American is Jewish controlled etc.

      I think very often we try to be different or want to show our intellectual prowess, but unwittingly we are just showing our myopic views and ignorance. USA was and still is the successful government for the last three hundred years despite whatever shortcomings you may want to heap on them. USA was formed and discovered around the same time as many Latin American countries. Today, after more than 500 years, many Latin American countries remain “an adventurous story” where one incompetent and inapt government is replaced by another. Bash USA all you want my friends, to me it is still a country where many want to make it their home.

      Inculcating good government governance is NOT the function of time. Good governance must start from day one, for this is the difference between USA and the rest in Latin America. So please, don’t get into this delusion again that developing countries must concentrate on economic progress first and let political, institutional and social developments come later. You know the favourite argument – when we are richer, things should become better. This is the favourite argument of most third world governments. How wrong we can be.

    88. “USA was and still is the successful government for the last three hundred years despite whatever shortcomings you may want to heap on them. USA was formed and discovered around the same time ..” limkamput

      300 years?? Declaration of Independence is July 4th, 1776. A first grader would be happy to have you sitting next to her or him and competing along with the other members of the class.

      The United States may have been formed through a union of states in the south and north, but it certainly was not “discovered”. Native Americans have been here for hundreds of years before Columbus set foot and committed genocide.

      “Bash USA all you want my friends, to me it is still a country where many want to make it their home.” Limkamput

      You are right on that one, my friend – but not one hundred percent of the way! There are many Malaysians who come to the U.S. to work illegally long enough to save to buy a house or start their businesses back home. Despite all their complaints about Malaysia, they still return because Malaysia is still a good place to make a living. They do not want to make U.S. their home.

      If you find yourself in New York one day, take the train (the “underground” as the Brits call it in the U.K.) to Flushing, New York’s chinatown. When you see Malaysian restaurants stop by to have your favourite char koay teow or roti canai, and talk to the waiters and waiteresses. Don’t take my word for it.

    89. Undergrad2,
      It is typical of you to be insulting and arrogant. You are known for arguing out of context and holding on to views that suit you. Please don’t for a minute think that I do not know the year America attained independence formally from the British. You are assuming that before independence there was no government in America – you know the Mayflower, the Pilgrim Fathers and the Plymouth Colony 1620? That was what I meant when wrote that from day one America was the place the settlers want to make it their home, unlike those in Latin American where the Europeans went there just to plunder.

      Second, you are assuming again that only you know about the natives in North America who suffered during the era of colonisation. So by extension why don’t you ask the northern states of Kedah, Kelantan and Trengganu to be returned to Thailand for these states were once under Thailand? Better still, why don’t you ask “Singapura” to be part of Johor and all the states in Peninsula to be under Melaka? Also, why don’t you asked the Chinese, Indians and Malays to return to their respective places of origin for Peninsula Malaysia, Sabah and Sarawak were once owned by Orang Asli and other natives? By extension, you should also ask the British, the Australians and the Americans to stop talking about human rights because they were once slave traders and slave masters. I don’t use myopic and ignorance for nothing you know.

      Third, don’t be condescending. You don’t have to tell me it is known as underground in UK. It is called subway in NY, do you know? So please don’t ask me to take a train. If you have an axe to grind, why are you there? Why don’t you come back to Bolehland. For every one Malaysian who wants to return, there is another one and many more from other countries who want to go and stay there. I just read the other day how you condemned Malaysia for not able to provide you job and opportunity. You see, my friend, I read and I remember.

    90. ““USA was and still is the successful government for the last three hundred years despite whatever shortcomings you may want to heap on them. USA was formed and discovered around the same time ..” limkamput

      “Please don’t for a minute think that I do not know the year America attained independence formally from the British. You are assuming that before independence there was no government in America – you know the Mayflower, the Pilgrim Fathers and the Plymouth Colony 1620? ” limkamput

      I still think a first grader would be happy to have you sitting next to her or him and competing along with the other members of the class. Can you blame anyone for thinking so??

      I don’t.

    91. “I think some of you have bashed America enough. ” limkamput

      Nobody here bashes America. Nobody here indulges in anything even close to that.

      Jeffrey was not bashing anybody or any country when he said that basically you cannot blame the corrupt alone for their behaviour, but the blame must also be shared by those who accept corrupt behaviour as a fact of life, who take pride in the fact they are able to offer bribes etc. Godfather interpreted that to mean Jeffrey was condoning corruption and used the U.S. as an example to follow. Jeffrey countered by pointing that the U.S. is not very much different. I pointed out the misunderstanding.

      If that makes me arrogant and condescending to you, so be it. The rest is just banter.

      But pray tell where is the “America bashing” you refered to???

    92. Limkamput,

      There was an earlier assertion which appeared to suggest that the US, by comparison to Bolehland, was free or relatively free from judicial corruption and where “the prosecutors do their jobs, the courts do their jobs. Without fear or favour”.

      I don’t think that pointing out of facts contradicting such an assertion about the US ought, in context, tantamount to America bashing.

      The expression “bashing” refers to a consistent harsh, gratuitous, predjudicial attack on a person – or, in our context, country and is best evinced on the part of the basher when he consistently and uncompromisingly attacks and points out the bad and unsavory aspects of the target bashed without balance, all or most of the time, regardless whether such attack is in proper context or not.

      I don’t think that either Undergrad2 or myself have shown such a behaviour not only in this thread but also other threads of this blog.

      The fuss (about what “America bashing means), in part, arises because amongst the many commenters here, you appear to be the very few if not only one, who has the credit of being quite fastitious about the language one expresses in a blog – by “language”, I mean the spelling, sentence structure and equally important the precision of words used so that readers could understand. (You have advised me some time back that I should read what I wrote at least once before posting because what I wrote was “atrocious” and here this thread you’re also advising me not to use the exact words in the scripture (“salt of the Earth”) in a manner that, according to your interpretation, is not the same meaning as prescribed in the scripture “because it may confuse others”.

      I accept what you criticise or say with as much grace as I could summon because I agree with your basic position that when one uses words – which are a medium of one’s thoughts – the choice of the words should as far as possible be acurate and precise because imprecise words connotes imprecise thoughts or may foster a habit of imprecise thoughts…..

      At the same time when you hold such a standard of precision in relation to language use of others, it would only be natural for others to reciprocate and hold you in equal measure to the same if not higher standard of precise language use.

      That is probably the reason why Undergrad2 pointed out that you should look at the precision of your statement that “USA was formed and discovered around the same time”.

      When one uses the term “USA” in present times, it is natural to refer to all 50 states inclusive of Hawaii, and in the earlier context of when it was formed, a reference to the union of states in the south and north at the time of Declaration of Independence on July 4th, 1776…..

      By what you yourself clarified, even discounting discovery whether in the sense by native Americans or Christopher Columbus, the arrival of the “the Mayflower, the Pilgrim Fathers and the Plymouth Colony” were much earlier in the 1620s?

      Yes, since the 1620 until 1776, the early settlers formed government but surely formation of government by them then was not synonymous with formation of USA for the statement “USA was FORMED and discovered around the SAME time” to be correct/precise.

      The USA (ie United States of America) was formed in 1776 though America (or North America, to be precise) was discovered much earlier, with the subsequent setting up of government.. It is also contentious whether one can describe the government as “successful” stretching back 300 years (re your statement, “USA was and still is the successful government for the last three hundred years despite whatever shortcomings you may want to heap on them”) reviewing their record of how they massacred red Indians and treated and often lynched black slaves!

    93. And to be precise, I correct the statement if it inadvertantly conveyed the impression that they had massacred red indians after 1776 (which I think they didn’t) but they certainly did when they were British colonies way before. Even then it is difficult to say how they had a government that could be described as “successful” stretching back 300 years….. Even arguably now, it is question of how you want to define “successful”. Adherants of the views of American linguist, philosopher, political activist, author, and lecturer, Avram Noam Chomsky would express misgivings.

    94. Undergrad2: Only these last few days these guys are talking about ‘the noose’ and how it was used against the ‘negroes’ in the early part of the last century – public lynching at which some white parents saw it fit to bring their children to educate them! Whites hanging a black American for looking at a white girl in the eye when passing her on the road???!! It is worse than hanging a Chinese man for dating a Malay girl.

      So what does the above mean?

      Undergrads2: But don’t take the words of the Whites for it that they’re so much less corrupt than the rest of us” he is only stating the obvious. He is only echoing our own thoughts on the issue. After all ‘corruption’ is the corollary of ‘power’ – where you find one you find the other. Isn’t corruption an example of an abuse of power?
      Undergrad2: I’m not free to lift the phone and talk about anything and everything under the sun. My e-mails are never private. When I purchase or borrow books to read from the bookstore or the public library, all my particulars are being recorded without me realizing it. My phones are routinely tapped by the FBI.

      And what about these? Really so bad huh, I think you should consider migrating again, may be to China or Russia.

      Godfather: I don’t think the readers here are that naive to think that American democracy is the panacea to all our ills or that America is the ultimate beacon of hope. What we are saying is that we should not be comparing the shenanigans of certain politicians or civil servants in the US with our den of thieves. BN wants the rakyat to think that way – show me a corrupt-free country, and if you can’t, you should not be complaining about Bolehland. They argue – as Jeffrey appears to do – that corruption is everywhere, in every country, and that everything is relative. Of course BN uses this as an excuse for its failings in Bolehland. I say this is pure BS – we should strive to be better than others, cleaner than others, and more transparent than others. Jeffrey and Undergrad2 – it is the system of checks and balances that differentiate the US from third world countries like Bolehland. Mahathir dismantled our system of checks and balances and that’s why Bolehland will be forever condemned to an eternity of rape and pillage by its leaders.

      Precisely, Godfather, I completely agree with you. Undergrad2 and Jeffrey can’t hold three variables in their heads at one time?

      Undergrad2: Why do you think they keep detainees from Afghanistan and Iraq in Guantanamo Bay?? So they are not subject to U.S. law. In the U.S. it does not matter who you are or which part of the planet you parachuted from. For as long as your two feet are firmly on U.S. soil there is one law – and that is the same one a U.S. citizen faces.

      You should slap yourself on the face! You see, if it is other countries these people in Guantanamo would have be tortured and executed long ago, got it moron (this is the response to you comparing me with Grade 1 in case you don’t get)?

      Jeffrey: Anyone here thinks that our cops are corrupt or brutal – and not cops elsewhere or for that matter in US – is misguided. It is the same: power and greed. If you are not in US, you see the film “Serpico” starring Al Pacino of ‘The Godfather’s fame.

      Who is disputing that? But we are talking about systems and institutions as whole? Just answer me, who do you trust more, US, China, Russia or Malaysia?

      Jeffrey: Why do you think US Attorney General Alberto Gonzales (loyal to Bush) was forced to resign recently? He fired 8 federal prosecutors under him. The dismissals were appeared to be politically motivated. The U.S. prosecutors fired said they felt pressured to investigate and prosecute Democrats before elections. Thousands of documents released by the Justice Department show a White House plot, hatched shortly after the 2004 elections, to replace U.S. attorneys.

      Precisely, but may I know where is that AG Gonzales now? Humans are never perfect and that is why we need institutions and checks and balances. Please go back to read my earlier posting, and if you don’t understand, read again.

      Jeffrey: Corrupt judges ? I don’t know where to begin. Take the high profile ones:…..

      Ya, it seems like there are more cases in the US than elsewhere. First, US is a much bigger countries and probably has more judges than other countries. Second, if many of the wrong doers are exposed and punished, it is by no mean US is worse. The system is working, got it?

      And many more, but I don’t think I should spend more time on your stupidity. You two fellows seem to know so much of the misdeeds and abuse of power in America. Has it ever occurred to you how in the first place you know all these? Do you know what is happening in Russia, China and your beloved Malaysia? I would like to know what you know in these countries and what are being done? The only thing that keeps you both going is probably your English proficiency. Forgive my English; it is not my first language and so I probably don’t understand the word “bash”. But I happened to know what you both said are baloney. May be I shouldn’t use three hundred years. How about 228 years?

    95. Jeffrey, you may define “successful” any way you like. Just tell in from your heart, who do trust more, USA, China, Russia or Malaysia? With regard to history, I think I have responded to that. Should we claim back Singapore? If you want to pick and choose when debating with someone, please remember others can do likewise.
      And what is this “American linguist, philosopher, political activist, author, and lecturer, Avram Noam Chomsky”? Look I am trained to see what is on the surface and what is embedded. My earlier observation of some trying to show their intellectual prowess is not that far off after all.

    96. “…///….Precisely, but may I know where is that AG Gonzales now? Humans are never perfect and that is why we need institutions and checks and balances. Please go back to read my earlier posting, and if you don’t understand, read again….//…” – Limkamput

      As you said, “who is disputing that?” so I say the same that no one disputes that the US has established institutions and checks and balances better than here. Their constitution was promulgated in 1776, ours in 1957. Perhaps you should go back to read my earlier postings and if you don’t understand, read again, and chances are that you could since you said you were “trained to see what is on the surface and what is embedded”: –

      1. “Salt of the Earth are everywhere whether in US or Malaysia – human nature same – but because they have 200 years of government, they could refine check balances better than the monkeys here, and they have turned hypocrisy to a better art form” – November 3rd, 2007 at 10: 35.08 ; and

      2. “The core and kernel of corruption is always there. The veneer (pretence buttressed by institutional safeguards) around such core/kernel, hypocritically denying and fighting against it (corruption) is just thicker – but it does not mean it cannot be pierced, as once in while we read in the news it is” – November 2nd, 2007 at 16: 38.17

      I am not pleading to justify corruption : I am merely pleading for an understanding of human nature that underpins corrupt acts, which is pretty much the same anywhere. Remember when I asked the question whether anyone who rages against corruption is certain he would not engage in it if he were presented opportunities to make millions without risks or adverse repercussions, nobody has yet owned up to declare that he is certain that he would resist the temptation!

      As regards your question “may I know where is that AG Gonzales now?”, it no more proves and advances any point than my counter question “may I know where is that Ahmad Fairuz now?”

      Finally in a discussion or disagreement, whence has command of English, which is also not my first language, been a factor? It has always been the thoughts and points, the cogency of which is better communicated with civility than hostility. We’re engaged in a dialogue, not a war here! :)

    98. To UMNOputras, Ahmad Fairuz leaving under circumstances of not getting the extension of 6 months that he wanted as is customary (for predecessors) due to external pressure (public opinion & Rulers’ reluctance, a kind of (“institutional check” within constitution) would tantamount to the same, in their context.

    99. To UMNOputras, Ahmad Fairuz is a hero for he has spent his career taking care of real “business” for UMNO and for BN. He has been a protector of BN’s interests. To UMNOputras, the term “checks and balances” refers to their bank accounts.

    100. “when I asked the question whether anyone who rages against corruption is certain he would not engage in it if he were presented opportunities to make millions without risks or adverse repercussions, nobody has yet owned up to declare that he is certain that he would resist the temptation!” Jeffrey QC

      Why would anyone bother with answering this extremely rhetorical question ? It’s almost like telling UMNO to go on stealing because their behaviour is normal. It’s like telling the thieves that it is OK because everyone in their position would do the same thing.

    101. Sorry everyone, but just a last word in response to what Limkamput remarked, “You should slap yourself on the face! You see, if it is other countries these people in Guantanamo would have be tortured and executed long ago, got it moron (this is the response to you comparing me with Grade 1 in case you don’t get)?”

      Limkamput, you may be interested to know that former Army Sergeant Erik R Saar, 29 has writen a book, the most revealing account so far of interrogations of Muslim detainees at the secretive detention camp in Guantanamo Bay.

      According to the draft manuscript obtained by The Associated Press, presently classified as secret pending a Pentagon review for a planned book, US female interrogators tried to break the muslim detainees by sexual touching, wearing a miniskirt and thong underwear and in one case rubbing her breast behind his back and smearing a Saudi man’s face (blindfolded) with what he was told by the female interrogator as her menstrual blood. It is such a taboo (to Muslims) that he spat at her in disgust even whilst maintaining an erection. The FBI also got a copy and has heard witnesses account. So far no one contradicted these controversial methods have been used (I will not detail other methods. There’s a long list)

      So maybe you’ve made a good point : luckily for the titillated detainees in Guantanamo Bay, the detention camp is operated by Americans with their institutional checks and balance and respect for human rights. Can’t imagine if it were operated by Russia or China or even Malaysia! :)

    102. Godfather, my goodness, finally you appear. I have been fighting with these two recalcitrants on issues that were brought up earlier by you. Please read the earlier postings to get the clearer picture. Essentially i am supportive of your position.

    103. Jeffrey,
      You are at it again. Did you read or not my earlier postings? Ok, just answer the following questions yes or no, and we can all stop right now.
      1. From your heart, despite whatever you have written about America, who do you trust more on checks and balance?
      2. Are the standards on checks and balance lower in America or America administered territories when compared with other countries?
      3. If Guantanomo is administered say by China, Russia or Malaysia, can you get a Sergant to write the stuff you mentioned in your posting?
      4. If you are able to get someone to write, do you think the press will know about it?
      5. If the press knows about it, do you think the press can release the news to the public?
      6. Would other countries investigate pending the publication of the book or would they just make the Sergant or the manuscript disappear?
      7. Finally, please grow up. For this, you don’t have to answer yes or no!

    105. “Why would anyone bother with answering this extremely rhetorical question ? It’s almost like telling UMNO to go on stealing because their behaviour is normal. It’s like telling the thieves that it is OK because everyone in their position would do the same thing” – Godfather.

      Of course why would we honestly answer the rhetorical question in the affirmative and in that process indirectly tell thieves that it is OK for them to steal from us?

      I can even agree with you that not only is it a rhetorical question but possibly not even a fair a question because of one essential difference : the thieves pose as public servants and get emplaced in position of power – through our votes – for the purpose of exercising it in trust for the welfare and common weal of the rest of us as beneficiaries but instead to steal from us!

      That makes politicians (in general) who steal not only hypocrites but also deceivers and liars.

      Having said that, it does not resolve an ethical conundrum posed by the question : if we ourselves cannot do better in terms of not taking advantage of power when afforded equal opportunities available to those whom we criticize and condemn, do we have a right to condemn them?

      Ethically, when we criticize others it assumes we are on higher ground – that we can do better when placed in similar circumstances – but when we honestly can do no better, then our criticism and condemnation immediately lose their moral force.

      Someone complaining theft when he is still not a thief because the opportunities are not available – what do you say to that ? Our moral indignation is exposed for what it essentially is – jealousy with a halo!

      We are hypocrites. Recognise for what we are. We’re only a notch morally higher than politicians that steal because the latter are not only hypocrites but they also double up as deceivers, imposters and liars because they con us that they could rise above our own human failings to take unfair advantage when they know they could and would not. That (deceit & misrepresentation) is the only distinction that can reconcile from the ethical standpoint why we criticize behaviour that we personally can do no better to rise above!

      I guess that is why great thinkers and philosophers of yesteryears have thought about things (politics, society and human nature) and had advocated institutions as a check and balance, knowing fully well the weakness of human nature and the tendency to abuse power.

      This is the ‘veneer’ I was talking about encoating the kernel of human nature to take unfair advantage of others.

      First world countries (say) like the US is better than third world precisely because they institutionalize – and have advantage of longer years to institutionalize – such safeguards (have a thicker veneer so to speak) but even then human nature being what it is, it is naïve to suppose that there is no rampant cases of corruption and abuse of power in these countries notwithstanding, and arguably, the situation would be even worse had these institutions not being in place.

      To extend the analogy, with veneer, at least there is an outward shine – otherwise it is only the dull wood showing – but not forgetting that ever so often when the surface is scratched, you could still see the basic wood within in these first world countries : eg. abuses of detainees in Guantanamo Bay, ubiquitous domestic electronic surveillance, judicial & corporate corruption like Enron).

      Veneer does not change the basic character of the wood for the better but it does preserve it from faster spoiling and deterioration.
      That is agreed which is why we too must strive to do here, what we can, to build up check and balance and institutions (like the IPCMC or the Judicial Commission) to preserve our national wood, so to speak.

    106. “…if we ourselves cannot do better in terms of not taking advantage of power when afforded equal opportunities available to those whom we criticize and condemn, do we have a right to condemn them?

      Ethically, when we criticize others it assumes we are on higher ground – that we can do better when placed in similar circumstances – but when we honestly can do no better, then our criticism and condemnation immediately lose their moral force.

      Someone complaining theft when he is still not a thief because the opportunities are not available – what do you say to that ? Our moral indignation is exposed for what it essentially is – jealousy with a halo!” Jeffrey QC

      Now this is a dangerous argument that essentially fortifies what the thieves have been saying all along – the Opposition can’t do any better, so put up or shut up.

      I disagree that there are no public servants with moral fibre in Bolehland. Look at Tun Dr Ismail. Look at Tan Siew Sin, or even Thong Yaw Hong, the former DG of MOF and now with Public Bank. I think Kit has the moral fibre to resist temptation – he could have been a rich man if he had decided to throw in his lot with the den of thieves.

      The issue of your rhetorical question is simply this: how could a situation where thieves steal without consequences be sustainable? Like a bank with its vault unlocked, there is a limit of how much money there is in the vault. Then the spectre of Zimbabwe appears.

    107. Limkamput:

      I am aware that both Undergrad2 and Jeffrey are trying to de-sentisize the issue of corruption on the grounds that it is normal human behavior, that it occurs in every country. We are of the view that this is irresponsible reasoning.

      Like I said in another posting, in UMNO language “check and balance” refers to their bank accounts overseas.

    108. “May be I shouldn’t use three hundred years. How about 228 years?”
      Congratulations! You made it to the second grade. Undergrad2:

      Precisely, it is meant for a moronic first grader like you.

    110. Godfather: “I am aware that both Undergrad2 and Jeffrey are trying to de-sentisize the issue of corruption on the grounds that it is normal human behavior, that it occurs in every country. We are of the view that this is irresponsible reasoning.”

      Godfather, from your postings over time, I’ve come to regard you as level headed, rational and reasonable and intelligent (unlike another poster we know who is unable to receive what he dishes out to others), not easily given to emotions and never the bigot that transients tend to be when they visit this blog.

      Corruption is a serious issue facing Malaysia and no one needs to overemphasise the fact that it has been tearing at the moral fabric of our society to the point now that it only takes a little more tugging for the fabric to fall apart – and when Humpty Dumpty falls no one would be able to put Humpty Dumpty together again! Not even Humpty Dumpty himself.

      To be fair to Jeffrey, he wasn’t desensitizing corruption at all although I do admit at certain points he seemed to be giving the appearance that it is a fact of life everywhere and nothing much could be done about it – which is not the same as condoning or desensitizing corruption. Cynism about life is a luxury we could afford to indulge in occassionally. Don’t you think? If anything Jeffrey was trying to explain the sociology of corruption.

      I looked upon corruption as a corollary of power. No one can dispute that where you find one, you find the other. How could one speak of abuse of power without there first being power?? Corruption is the outward manifestation of the abuse of power. That, of course, does not mean that I’m making my case for corruption. The universality of corruption cannot be denied. The fact that a country has had a long history of some 200 plus years and with all the “checks and balances” to power, power still corrupts.

      As for Limkamput, I love to toy with his head becauses he’s so predictable.

    112. As he himself said, “we have bigger battles out there”…..but how does one fight an endemic malaise if one does not seek, as you say, to understand the sociology of this beast that lurks in the human heart as a natural corollary of power?

      Quoting Tun Dr Ismail, Tan Siew Sin, or even Thong Yaw Hong or Kit who are an exception than rule does not address that general rule about those in positions of power.

      How does one fight, when there are no comrades in arms to fight a battle because all of them have left or are leaving the country for what they consider are greener pastures in first world white countries because they think that corruption & abuse of power are by and large absent or very much less there (as compared to one’s own country) because of the so called check and balance, Fifth Estate, Separation of Powers Rule of Law etc there – not acknowledging that notwithstanding these institutions, “the beast” also ever so often breaks out and mauls those around in these places?

      Cynicism is therefore necessary if only to remind ourselves that the pastures in others gardens are not always greener.

      And cynicism includes acknowledging also that we too may be susceptible to the very thing and fault that we criticize or condemn of others.

      Cynicism requires that we constantly revaluate our own position relative to others as well from standpoint of ethical considerations because, like it or not, any debate on public issue will boil down ultimately to issues of right or wrong in the ethical sense whether we address others or ourselves.

      Going forward, I have, in the quest for reconciliation, also drawn a distinction why there is a cogent reason that politicians and public officials should be held to higher or more stringent accountability and kept in check even though they are abusing power in manner that their critics might be equally susceptible if similarly placed – and that is the notion of the “trust” reposed in those who hold public office based on what they hold out to those who support and vote them!

      If, as he says, “this is a dangerous argument that essentially fortifies what the thieves have been saying all along – the Opposition can’t do any better, so put up or shut up”, so be it, as far as I am concerned, because the truth is the truth and if it should be stated, then let the unvarnished version of it be so stated for which I offer no apologies since I don’t believe we should slice it one way or another for the sake of our individual agendas, even if they were for the so-called fight against corruption in the country for the public or the nation’s good.

    113. Jeffrey: “Cynicism is therefore necessary if only to remind ourselves that the pastures in others gardens are not always greener.”

      I thought it was greener the other side. However, when I arrived on ‘the other side’ I found that grass is always (and I mean ‘always’) greener the other side!

    116. i really2 think that what pkrisnin said was true,same goes to the head of this country.Chicken…only know how to give speeches.Even worse,I heard that he listen and do what eva his son in-laws word.What kind of person is he.Shame having such a person like him to lead my country,our country..When mahathir throw away his throne in this country and give to this dimwit,What is this dimmwit promise???..Look what happen to that promises..guess for him,a promise for a clean country without bribery is concerning the person,his status and wat sord of eva….

    117. In China, corrupt government officials are executed with a bullet they buy themselves and if Malaysia can practise the same by asking these people to buy their own hang-nooses, I think corruption can be ended in this nation.

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