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Parliamentary Roundtable – reaffirm Malaysia a secular state with Islam as the official religion and not an Islamic State

A Parliamentary Roundtable to reaffirm the Merdeka social contract and Malaysia Agreement that Malaysia is a secular state with Islam as the official religion and not an Islamic State will be held in Parliament on Friday, August 10, 2007 at 10 am.

All political parties, professional and civic organizations, NGOs and NGIs are invited to the parliamentary roundtable to give special meaning and significance to the 50th Merdeka anniversary celebrations.

For over four decades in the history of nation, there had been no doubt or question whatsoever, whether in Parliament, Cabinet, government or outside about the secular basis of Malaysia as spelt out by the Merdeka social contract reached by the forefathers of the major communities on the attainment of independence in 1957 and the Malaysia Agreement which brought Sabah and Sarawak into the federation in 1963.

That fundamental nation-building cornerstone of Malaysia conceived as a secular state with Islam as the official religion, is not only to be found in the constitutional documents and the highest judicial pronouncements of the land, it also represented the life-work and commitment of the first three Prime Ministers, Tunku Abdul Rahman, Tun Razak and Tun Hussein.

However, in the past few years, the secular basis of Malaysian nation-building has come under repeated challenge.

On the occasion of the 50th Merdeka anniversary, the time has come for all Malaysians to reclaim their national legacy and heritage by reaffirming the Merdeka social contract and Malaysia Agreement that Malaysia is a secular state with Islam as the official religion and not an Islamic State.

Or have the fundamental basis of Malaysian nation-building suffered such a serious erosion that we cannot find sufficient Malaysians, whether NGOs or NGIs, to reaffirm the Merdeka social contract and Malaysia Agreement that Malaysia is a secular state with Islam as the official religion and not an Islamic State.

Organisations, NGOs and NGIs, interested in attending the Parliamentary Roundtable, plse contact and register with Lau Weng San, 016-3231563.

65 Replies to “Parliamentary Roundtable – reaffirm Malaysia a secular state with Islam as the official religion and not an Islamic State”

  1. I wonder when our government has been so opened to accept a Parliamentary Roundtable that reaffirms Malaysia is a secular state with Islam as the official religion and not an Islamic State?

    Dear YB Lim, is this just something you plan to raise in the roundtable?

    I reckon all invitees are majorly BN cronies, their gov contracts owners etc…all contradict with the voices to protest against BN… Do we really have a chance to hear genuine people voice in this roundtable???

  2. Religious intolerance had gone worst for the past few decades.

    To lead a modern, promising, progressive and multi religious country to this unhealthy situation, BN leaders had grossly neglected and betrayed the country and her people – Muslims and Non Muslims alike.

  3. It is sad that after 50 years of Merdeka, we still have to come to this to affirm the secular (“the state of being separate from religion”) nature of Malaysia.

    It has to be reiterated that secular does not mean anti-religion which is a stand taken by some groups. They need to be enlightened.

    I hope all the component parties of the BN will attend. This will give them the vehicle to make their stand. There should be no grey area on this.

    Malaysia is a secular state with Islam as its official religion – Yes or No ?

  5. They won’t allow the discussions to take place. Any excuse to derail the meeting – permits, whatever. Even if the roundtable is between the Opposition parties, they won’t allow you to proceed.

  6. This is indeed the last chance for all balanced thinking organisations and people of Malaysia (the silent majority) to save this nation from regression… for the way forward in the ideals and achievements of our founding Father the Tunku and the first four Prime Ministers- and since, gradually went down-hill into the divided, confused, and truely messed up nation it has become.
    Let us pray for common sense to rule the day and for start of a turning point in Malaysia’s future- 8/10/07 will be also be watched by the world.

  7. Malaysia is heading to nowhere by declaring itself an Islamic State by UMNO which is literally in control of the current government.

    It is indeed sad that the political party persisted in doing so every so often.

  8. Merdeka is just round the corner and here we are, still debating the fundamentals of our Constitution. Why waste money and time celebrating when we are still unsure about the basis of our existence. I say scrap all Merdeka celebrations until we all come to a common understanding whether we are or are not a Secular nation and all parties to make a pledge to uphold the Consitution irrespective of political differences.

  9. You may have your round or square table discussion – the final say and definition will be by Umnoputras, regardless of what our Constitution says: secular maybe BUT really islamic.

    The sad, naked truth of Malaysia is that after 44 years of creation (since 1963, not 1957 – even this simple fact we cannot get it correct and resolved, and remain confused between Malaya and Malaysia), there is nothing much we can focus as a nation to unitedly push forward our economy and destiny. We are still fragmented and quaralling daily over petty ethnic issues. We remain tribal in our thinking and are concerned over ethnic issues. Of course, our government is our worst enemy and remain entrenched in myopic, anti-national activities. There is no truly national guiding principles that go beyong the narrow confine of race. Our government officials can only come out with grandiose slogans and ideals, which are doomed to fail at the outset because their principles are totally against and opposite to the goals that they wish to achieve. For example, just listen to what Hisham said in the last week and you know his words are utter rubbish, a disgrace to his father.

    So, come 31 Aug, people just have to cry for Malaysia, truly disappointing.

  12. Corruption is a sin under Islamic principles, and Agong has the power to punish the culprits. TDM was ‘spared’ perhaps because he had done more good than bad. Unfortunately, his successor is unable to emulate him. The situation now is not very healthy, and the Agong has reason to act, and to prevent a possible break-down of the system. AAB has lost control. He failed to address many important issues effectively, unlike the efficiency of TDM, resulting in a lot of criticisms. His absence plus his silence is a signal that something is not right. The action of MM Taib has triggered a series of chain-reaction, with explosive feelings of anger among the people. We have two major events ahead of us, (1) 50th Celebration in August, and (2) General Election. Elected leaders and politicians should be matured enough to respect the people and the Agong. They should do some damage-control quickly, or risk being rejected, or thrown out by force.

  14. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/IG28Ae01.html
    UMNO has long relied on communal rhetoric to sustain its five-decade grip on power. But the comments also come at a time when the nominally secular country is undergoing what some view as a pronounced Islamization; when several court decisions have denied individuals the right to be recognized by the religion of their choosing; when race relations are on the skids; and when official provocation is on the rise – all as the country finds itself in the throes of a mid-life crisis.

  15. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/IG28Ae01.html
    UMNO has long relied on communal rhetoric to sustain its five-decade grip on power. But the comments also come at a time when the nominally secular country is undergoing what some view as a pronounced Islamization; when several court decisions have denied individuals the right to be recognized by the religion of their choosing; when race relations are on the skids; and when official provocation is on the rise – all as the country finds itself in the throes of a mid-life crisis.

  16. KMT had a firm grip over Taiwan for more than 50 years and the Chiang dynasty almost believed that they can lord over Taiwan forever. Who could imagine that KMT was voted out as the ruling party of Taiwan?

    Can Malaysians of all ethnic groups, especially Malays, dare to dream the impossible dream – to vote out BN or to reduce their 2/3 majority in our parliament? Are there mental and moral revolutions among true Malaysians who do not wish to see our land keep sliding down the slippery slope of doom?

    Will our YDP Agong exercise his special privilege to save our nation?

  19. What do you expect when malaysia is governed by a sick and idiotic UMNO controlled government and a sleeping PM? Just look at all the outstanding issues raised by RPK and YB? Not a single one has been resolved. Apart from RPK, no bumi has the b.lls to take the bull by the horns and face the issues head-on in a fair and impartial manner for the sake and unity of all malaysians. Most if not all BN politicians are only interested using their postion to enrich themselves through corruption. Just look at Mohd Mohd, PM, IGP, Interior Minister, RM 37m cop, RM 27m cop etc.

  20. Continuing on art-upon-mu’s comments about the KMT in Taiwan, the LDP in Japan has also lost its power of the past and so has the Congress Party in India.

    Definitely these instances show the power of the electorate to determine thier government, which unfortunately has yet to be galvanised within the Malaysian public. Perhaps GE 2007/8 (?) could see a swing but it takes effort from all parties to spread the word.

  21. Libra2, you are better than most, being a second class citizen. You are in the privileged class then.

    a)umnoputras
    b)cronies
    c)malays
    d) true bumiputras (muslim)
    e) true bumiputras (non-muslim)
    d)indons with citizenship
    e) converts (indian-muslims)
    f) true bumiputras
    g) chinese/indians/others

    I fall in the last category…..dont know what class it is!. I dont know about you.

    So for me its not a big day. No flag…..why waste money when it goes to foreigners anyway? Will rest because its a holiday. Thats all.

    Cheers!

  22. art and trashed, For that to happen, the Malays have got to start to read and be aware of whats happening. If their reading is limited to the mainstream media and to trashy novels we wont see any change occurring…..not now and not in the future.

    The parliamentary seats are delineated to give more power to the rural areas. And this is how BN will retain power. Nothing much anyone can do to deny BN.

  23. Round table discussion now to rectify mistakes made or to clarify ‘mistake’ in the form of statement made to assert Malaysia’s stand.

    The question arise who is the citizens of Malaysia? Malays? Muslims? Malays make up about 50% of the citizens so what happen to the other half that comprise of other races? Second class citizens? Their grouses not heard? Discontentment goes unheeded? Would the Malays or Muslims live happily forever free from guilt from their injust treatment?

    A common phrase given to especially Chinese and Indians is to go back to the country of their origin. So the question arise – are the other races citizens of this land who pay their taxes, have sworn allegiance and are patriotic to this nation? How are they treated? Is it with all fairness or is there discrimination at all levels from school examination, entrance to higher learning and in the cooperate ladder.

    Now with the stand that the leaders make, is it only going to be in the favour of Malays and Muslims or do the leaders in this land consider the others? Not all Malays or Muslims who love peace and equality agree with this stand that Malaysia is a Islamic State. So even among the Malays there is this discontentment.

    How do the leaders plan to improve the economy of this land? By creating chaos and discontentment? Where is the wisdom that was found in our founding leader Tunku Abdul Rahman?

    Hope the leaders read, think and change. Because the destiny of this nation lies in the hands of the leaders but also in the unseen hand of God. Every decison made affects everybody.

    I mentioned the unseen hand of God because I believe the leaders are given that priviledge to lead by God and if they are unfit, God is well able to put them down. No one is indispensible!!

  24. To change the perception of people, we need facts and examples, and then disseminate them to everyone.

    To change the political scenario of Malaysia, Malays and non-Malays must be enlightened to make informed changes. Right now, most Malays and non-Malays are still contented to live in fear and greed – fear to change to an unknown political and governance landscape, and greed for some race-based wealth or some left over crumbs under the current political scenario.

    An effective messenger of change is Anak Raja Bugis RPK, who is causing our government people (who are really our servants) to shit/piss in their pants. They know that the messages in Malaysia Today are having effects on some of their readers and causing them to doubt the propaganda and biased and doctored information issued by the government.

    According to a report: Muhammmad2 menyifatkan Malaysia Today sangat berbahaya, sekiranya tidak dipantau dan diambil tindakan, kerana ia dibaca oleh ramai golongan muda.

    “Kalau inilah budaya yang disebar, saya rasa suatu hari nanti akan wujud pemikiran anarki di negara ini, di mana orang ramai tidak lagi percaya pada kerajaan, pada Tuhan dan hanya mementingkan kebebasan hak individu. Maka pada ketika itu, amat sukar bagi kerajaan hendak mengawalnya kerana pemikiran rakyat yang telah dirosakkan,” katanya.

    So, Muhammmad2 and his colleagues in UMNO are worried that “orang ramai tidak lagi percaya pada kerajaan” – a calamity to UMNO and BN.

    RPK must be encouraged to expose the incompetence, lies, sin, corruption, race-centered self-enrichment actions and policies of UMNO – which cumulatively lead to the sliding of Malaysia as a competitive nation. RPK should compile facts and give examples, for instance, of corruption and abuse of power of UMNO politicians and their lapdogs. Write in BM and then circulate them in the Internet, as well as publish them in hard copies and circulate them widely among urban and rural Malays and non-Malays.

    Through factual information, hopefully, there will be revolution (mental, moral, and political) for the masters of the land (i.e., we the voters) to get rid of our undesired and overstaying servants (the MPs and ministers). We must define the destiny of ourselves and our nation by electing servants that work for us, rather than having servants that work for themselves and enrich their own pockets.

  25. If UMNO says Malaysia is an Islamic state, it is an Islamic state; there is nothing much you can do about it except make a lot of noise. If UMNO is toppled, PAS take over and will also say Islamic state, so no difference.
    We, the minorities will just have to resign to our fate as Dhimmis. After all our tax money is used to build mosques, islamic schools, Syariah courts, pay the upkeep of all these places and the jabatan agama islam, That is the same is Jizyah. We want to build temples and churches, we need the tacit approval of the Islamic authorities.

  27. I really do ont understand the need for labels. Why prompted Najib to come out with that Islamic State label? Does it matter?

    And if Malaysia is an Islamic State, does it mean that the administrators of this country are all God-fearing, fair, just and untainted? The problem of corruption in this country is still widespread, entrenched and unabating.

    So why apply labels to embellish the exterior when the interior isn’t quite as good? By doing so, are we acknowledging a culture of superficialty, of judging by the cover only, of playing to the gallery?

    Such labels are wholly unecessary. Politicians should instead be focussing their energies on more productive endeavours rather than uttering statements that create more tension and do good. Let’s have more action rathe rthan talk please.

  29. Many Malays and muslims do not want an Islamic state too after seeing what is happening in Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Middle East.

    So, let us join forces and vote out the BN and deny UMNO the opportunity to wreak further havoc on the country by hijacking the Islamic issue to further their nefarious and evil ends.

    Vote DAP/PKR for a sea change and a secular state.

  30. On the other hand, Malays view it as a ploy to do away with the NEP altogether, that any electoral coalition between the PKR will not transform into a viable government.

    How do you convince them to vote for anything but Barisan? After all, Malays have been beneficiaries of a policy though unfair to the other races, have worked for their parents, for them and their children – however awkward the workings of the policy has been, how it has been used to enrich the politically connected, it is still a policy that has their best interest at heart??

    For the rest of us, with PKR are we not replacing one group of robbers and thieves for another group of would-be robbers and thieves?

  32. After all PKR is an offshoot of UMNO comprising of dissenters from within its fold, denied the spoils of office through association with their leader Anwar Ibrahim who has been knocked off his pedestal by a jealous and powerful boss. It has struggled to justify its separate existence by seemingly wanting to develop its own ideology but has it??

  34. Why prompted Najib to come out with that Islamic State label?
    He’s aiming for the title “Saifullah” — Sword of Allah from the ulamas because the Queen of England would not knight him as she did Salman Rushdie

  35. There is possibly some wisdom in what Undergrad2 said in his postings July 27th, 2007 at 22: 20.32, “Enough of the Islamic state and the state of Islam, Mr. Kit!” and smeagroo’s posting of July 27th, 2007 at 22: 51.14, “Yeah i agree!”.

    Lets evaluate the situation:

    Najib described us as an Islamic State. So what? One could say he is a DPM, a future PM and therefore what he stated or misstated is important. But it is still his opinion. Isn’t he entitled to his opinion?

    Well the father of our independence, Tunku Abdul Rahman also had an opinion. He said that we were a secular state and this was supported by another former Prime Minister Tun Hussein Onn who said, “the nation can still be functional as a secular state with Islam as the official religion.

    Opinion is opinion but what about the law? The constitutional position was stated by Lord President Salleh Abbas in his judgment in the 1988 case of Che Omar Che Soh. He said that “we have to set aside our personal feelings because the law in this country is still what it is today, secular law, where morality not accepted by the law is not enjoying the status of law. Perhaps that argument should be addressed at other forums or at seminars and, perhaps, to politicians and Parliament. Until the law and the system is changed, we have no choice but to proceed as we are doing today.”

    Well that law as laid down has still not been changed. Until 2007, no judicial authority, not even the highest (Federal Court) had contradicted explicitly the 1988 statement of constitutional position by Salleh Abbas. So it is still law.

    Now having examined opinions and law, lets look next at existing realities of the state of nation.

    We are definitely not secular. There are many grounds to say this but it suffices to state one obvious ground – no secular state would with absolute partiality single out an official religion like ours and support it so extensively from public funds over the rest.

    But having said that, the realities do not support the contention either that we’re an Islamic State in the ordinary grammatical sense by which the term is used when one takes into account the following contradictions:

    · We’re not an Islamic state in the sense of a theocratic state because the constitutionally prescribed formula for the leader of government – the Prime Minister – is not that he must be an ulamak, erudite in Islam, but a leader of the political party that won the election;

    · How could an an Islamic state have licensed casino like the Genting, lotteries like Magnum, Toto, 3+1D and Bigsweeps? Or public entertainment places serving liquour and markets selling pork?
    · How could an Islamic State have criminal laws based on our Penal Code for muslims and non muslims alike and not Syariah/Hudud?

    There are other contradictions but these would for time being suffice.

    We are, in terms of existing realities, neither here nor there of either secular or Islamic theocratic models.

    When we are “rojak” in the sense above because of the realities of multi-racial, multi-religious and multi-cultural composition of society, perhaps it is best to leave things as they are.

    Najib might have made the Islamic State statement for any motive. One could speculate like what Undergrad2 did that “it is all about the elections. It is all about labeling and bottling old wine in a new bottle” or that he did so to bolster his political capital amongst malay/muslim constituency at a time he felt it threatened by swirling rumours relating to a current case.

    Or it may actually be due to some reason practical than opportunistic – he made the remark when opening an international conference on “The Role of Islamic States in a Globalized World” from the 17th to 18th July 2007 organised by Institute of Islamic Understanding Malaysia (IKIM). How could Malaysia host such a conference and yet tell conference participants that we are a secular nation and not an Islamic state?

    So Najib had his opinion. So what? 2 former PMs had a diametrically opposed one. The law laid down by 1988 Federal Court decision remains as yet uncontradicted.

    Whilst individuals or civil societies could express disagreement with Najib’s statement the issue here is whether this possibly divisive issue should be publicly escalated to the level of a Parliamentary Roundtable to reaffirm the Merdeka social contract and Malaysia Agreement.

    Is it wise and does it serve the nation’s best interest to force explicit position on this issue at parliamentary level? Would it not make it worse for all if the 92% BN dominated Parliament governed by party discipline (of which Najib is chief Whip) takes the position that we’re an Islamic State?

    There is a need here to distinguish between 1. movements inspired by religion (Ayatollah Khomeini’s revolution or PAS’s political cause) from 2. movements using religion to legitimise political agendas based on non-religious interests (to make money out of contracts).

    No leaders in power in the case of 2. are going to say the truth that we’re “rojak” but they will instead use every power at his disposal to further buttress their credentials as Islamic leaders by declaring this an Islamic state ten times over if necessary!

    How could anyone making claims to be an Islamic leader dare we’re a secular nation implying that he is a leader of a secular regime or upholder of a secular constitution? Then how could he then still claim to be an Islamic leader?

    We have all lived long enough to know that Life in general and political life in particular is abounding with hypocrisies. But we must also know when to push and, after making the point, when to stop and let go, lest our persistent action produces boomerang effect, adverse to and more detrimental to our interests that we had sought to protect when we started to push (in first instance).

    One latest example of this “boomerang effect” is what happened recently to an old guard UMNO chieftain, wishing a political come back who went to Dang Wangi police station to fix an irritant in the person of RPK by using the old tried ways of intimidation and police action for disparaging Islam and the King and not knowing the new ways of the Cyber World came away exposed as to his own shenanigans and damaged as to his political prospects instead…..

  38. All this rhetoric about Malaysia being an Islamic state is a diversion, a smokescreen if you will.

    You don’t think they are going dress you up in green and white with turbans and all, women in black stockings riding astride motorbikes and have your women join separate queues in separate check-out counters and close all pubs and your favorite watering holes?? Certainly you are not about to be stoned to death for incest and adultery. Surely Bukit Bintang will continue to be one of the best red light districts second only to Phatpong.

    It is just UMNO beating the drums of narrow Malay nationalism. They have done that so often that we no longer hear their drums beating – just the noise of the drums beating, not the message. Will it work? Sure.

  40. People objecting Najiib’s statement know it may well be a ‘smoke screen’ and ‘diversion’ but the legitimate concerns of non muslims are that such a statement articulated by a high government official – who under ordinary circumstances may succeed as prime minister in due course – will be capitalised and used as rallying point by religious extremist and radical Islamic fundamentalist groups to push and succeed in their agenda of converting this nation to an Islamic theocracy.

    Perhaps not for foreseeable future, but if the country continues down the slippery slope of greater and greater islamisation then who can say that one day they are not “going to dress you up in green and white with turbans and all, women in black stockings riding astride motorbikes and have your women join separate queues in separate check-out counters and close all pubs and your favorite watering holes or you are not about to be stoned to death for incest and adultery??” (per Undergrad2)

    Separate queues and check out counters are already existing in Kelantan under PAS and PAS’s Hadi already tried to implement Hudud in Terengganu though noting is heard of it after UMNO werestled Terrenganu back at all costs (in part because of the oil and gas riches off its coast).

    Whenever religious zealots harass any courting couple in the parks for immorality or any muslim entertainer for unislamic conduct; whenever they close any mamak eatery for not being properly accredited as halal or ban imported turkeys being served in hotels during Christmas or stop the erection of any hindu or Buddhist temples or churches, they going to rebut criticisms of their actions, not only by civil society and NGOs but even by the government itself, by saying that even the top leadership has already endorsed Malaysia as an Islamic State.

    As I said before and will say again the agenda of these people is not to seek a conversion of this country to a Islamic theocracy by radical change in constitution or law or government policy but by piece meal, ‘inch by inch’ concessions to their demands and expectations until in aggregate in due course Malaysia becomes a theocracy by fiat accompli.

    Some of you have also commented how could a true Islamic State have so much corruption. That’s true.

    It is ironical that the biggest stumbling block to the agenda of converting this country to an Islamic theocracy is precisely the very corruption that every one decries about.

    For so long as the ruling elite uses religion to legitimise political agendas of maintaining power structured on non-religious hedonistic and capitalistic interests of making money it will obvious that the country can never be truly a Islamic theocracy, no matter what the label or tag, for you just have to ask how is a so called ‘Islamic’ politician going to make big sums of money using their proxy non muslim shareholders and directors in lucrative gambling institutions like Genting, lotteries like Magnum, Toto, 3+1D and Bigsweeps or even major banking institutions lending money on ‘haram’ interest if we become really Islamic? All these and many carriages of the gravy train will have to be stopped!

    It is perhaps the greatest dilemma on the part of those who wish the country to improve and progress to have to confront two unacceptable choices – either a pure Islamic theocracy or a pretender using religion as a mask for its capitalistic adventures.

    In other words the choice boils down to which is more important – the Almighty and religion in pure form and one’s welfare in the Hereafter OR the Money God, its concomitant of the spoils of quick riches via corruption for the Herepresent?

    If there is another better and feasible option present in the context of present realities, I have yet to see it.

  41. In the premises of the above discussion, of course the educated will reject UMNO unless their education and opportunties in life are enhanced by its NEP policies. But for the not so educated masses who constitute the bulk of the voters, who may not even have access to the alternative media offered by the Internet, who will they choose between two viable PAS or UMNO? PKR that holds the strongest promise can’t even hold its own without defactions of office bearers like Ezam and having to hang onto PAS to piggy ride to power!

    Amongst non muslim elites (I mean the business and corporate class) they will throw their support and nmoney behind UMNO and BN, never mind the corruption because the corruption – though bad for the country in the long run and inimical to the interest of the younger educated who will be inheriting the country – is however one avenue with which they could partake with their political cronies in UMNO as well as other BN component parties through the contracts and projects dished out. At least there is benefit and sharing of the spoils of largesse and patronage amongst all races and religion within the ruling class and their friends in business. If the country is a theocracy under PAS, they will be treated as Dhimmis and they perceive their position as worse off…So in the absence of alternatives between the hammer of UMNO and the anvil of PAS the former is still the lesser of the two evils.

  42. “As I said before and will say again the agenda of these people is not to seek a conversion of this country to a Islamic theocracy by radical change in constitution or law or government policy but by piece meal, ‘inch by inch’ concessions to their demands and expectations until in aggregate in due course Malaysia becomes a theocracy by fiat accompli.”

    Jeffrey, very well written but where do you see DAP fit in?

  43. “Whenever religious zealots harass any courting couple in the parks for immorality or any muslim entertainer for unislamic conduct; whenever they close any mamak eatery for not being properly accredited as halal or ban imported turkeys being served in hotels during Christmas or stop the erection of any hindu or Buddhist temples or churches….” Jeffrey

    Jeffrey is right. Yes, it is already happening!

    But I see this as government officials in the country’s state religious departments and in bodies like JAKIM, JAMAD and JAMUTHU trying to justify their fat government salaries. Like you they don’t want to lose your jobs. Would you not do the same if you’re in their shoes?? Further, men are like dogs and are fiercely territorial. Islam is their reason (no, not the dogs’) for existence and for living. Should we blame them if occasionally they go out and remind the rest of us that they too have a right to existence? After all the government has spent vast sums of taxpayers’ money educating them overseas. Is it not time for them to re-pay society for the privileged of an overseas education in faraway Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Yemen – and who knows Pakistan and Afghanistan or Borat country?

  45. As for holding hands in public parks, they are not preventing you from indulging in such hand holding. After all, holding hands is one of the world’s oldest pastime (not profession as that belongs to a whole group of different people). What they are really saying is that such public displays of affection is best done within the privacy of one’s own private property. Public parks are meant for those interested in stories about the birds and the bees rather than wanting themselves to be birds and bees.

    But then have they not missed entirely another group of people with slightly different sexual orientation?? Arab men hold hands, don’t they?

  46. Undergrad2 said:

    ” I say we show them empathy even if that means we have to forgo some of our fundamental liberties, for these are not without qualifications.”

    I strongly disagree. Fundamental liberties are what they are – fundamental – and cannot be with qualifications. These little Napoleons are not out to prove that they can perform their role – these are the very people who probably will do nothing if the government tells them that they will get paid without having to work for it. These are the people who abuse their positions so that they can make extra income from the ensuing ruckus. These are the very same people who have been taught by their UMNO masters that it is OK to steal.

  48. “Fundamental liberties are what they are – fundamental – and cannot be with qualifications. ” Godfather

    Article 5 Federal Constitution of Malaysia of 1967

    (1) No person shall be deprived of his life or personal liberty save in accordance in accordance with the law.

    Note: ” save in accordance with the law” are words not without meaning. Is that not a qualification?

  51. Revathi Masoosai, an ethnic Indian born to Indian Muslim family but was raised as a Hindu and married to a Hindu husband in 2004, was detained for 6 months by the Islamic Religious Department in southern Malacca in an Islamic rehabilitation center after applying in an Islamic Syariah Court in Malacca to have her Muslim name and religion changed. During ‘rehabilitation’ she said that officials subjected her to extensive counseling, tried to make her pray as a Muslim, wear a head scarf and eat beef, a practice sacrilege to Hindus. She said that the Islamic authorities also seized her daughter from her husband and handed the child to Revathi’s Muslim mother.

    Was her fundamental constitutional right under articles 5 (personal liberty) and 8 (freedom of religion) of Federal Constitution violated or would one consider it not violated for being “in accordance with the law” – and if so whose law?

  52. Jeffrey QC,

    You took the wrong flight! That flight took you to Bangkok when what you really want to do is to take the other flight that should take you to Qatar. You cannot accuse MAS for flying you to the wrong destination! You boarded the wrong flight!

    Revathi is a Muslim and by being a Muslim, like all Muslims irrespective of their ethnicities, she puts herself (or her mother did and what do they say about the sins of the parent coming to visit their children?) under the jurisdiction of syariah law. Islamic law scholars and judges in Malaysia have not found a way to release people like Revathi from the grasp of syariah law. Until they do she will have to remain legally a Muslim – thanks to Art. 121(1A).

    Islam is only less than 2,000 years old. We need to give them time to work it out.

    We have to be patient.

  53. It is extraordinary why if a person were put on a wrong flight to Bangkok instead of Qatar that he intended, he should blame himself or bad luck and not MAS and its management/crew!

    It’s not only problem of wrong flight in isolation. If you follow recent reports including this link http://malaysia-today.net/blog2006/index.php?itemid=6857 in RPK’s Malaysia Today, it is the common experience of many Malaysians as well as international commuters alike – for over 3 weeks now – of daily delays in take off , some as long as eight hours, not to mention mixed up of seats under its flight booking system that left passengers stranded. (Last week my Indonesian guests were at KLIA at 7.30 am for a scheduled 9 am flight but could take off for Jakarta only at 3 pm! And they sms me Mana Ada System?)

    [Even the Minister of Transport, Dato’ Seri Chan Kong Choy and three other MCA Minister/Deputy Ministers failed to show up on time at Sabah MCA Convention last Sunday. Then the Minister of Information, Dato’ Zainuddin Maidin was delayed at Kuala Terengganu. According to latest rumours, even the BN Senators’ Club called for the sacking of Idris].

    Some say it was sabotage. The recently concluded clandestine reward scheme (including ESOS) for very selected employees based on the much tauted Performance Management System (PMS) evaluation system generated rampant unhappiness of 20,000 MAS workforce suspected of the sabotage.

    Earlier when Idis took over, there was unhappiness with the Voluntary Separation Scheme. They said a lot of lazy and unproductive staff were rewarded by handsome pay offs whilst the productive sector were not availed to the benefits of VSS so that they are retained to slog it out.

    Now those suffering would make no distinction who’s at fault – whether the 20,000 MAS workforce suspected of sabotage or its group MD Datuk Idris Jala. All the same MAS has been blamed – even if it was formed only in 1971 – and they are beginning to take other airlines. How to be patient?

  56. Undergrad2:

    To use your analogy, if we boarded the flight to Bangkok when we really wanted to go to Qatar, then it cannot be our fault, and MAS must rectify its error and put us on another flight from Bangkok to Qatar. Leaving us stranded in Bangkok is a complete breach of our fundamental right – even though Bangkok may be a preferable destination to Qatar for most people.

  57. There is no true statesman in BN who would stand up to Najib’s nonsensical declaration that Malaysia is an Islamic state and not a secular state.

    What UMNO and BN is trying to do is just to change the label and still remain secular, hoping to please everybody – the Islamists and the secularists. BN’s silly attempt is akin to calling a lemon a papaya. The problem is a new crop of BN leaders can easily forget (and Tun Mahathir will promptly attest to the short memories of all UMNO followers!) and will forget why a lemon was called a papaya. Then when extremism and intolerance breeds in the backyards of parochialism, the nation will slip very fast into an Afghan-PAkistan milieu.

    It takes statesmen to say, ‘Heck, we can’t put a leg each on a boat that’s ideologically drifting further and further apart’. A lemon by any other name will be just as acidic. And there is no stateman in UMNO, MCA, MIC, PPP, GERAKAN etc… And all BN’ers seem to have lost their mind at the same time their pants are splitting from the drift!

  58. Should read as “It takes statesmen to say, ‘Heck, we can’t put a leg each on two different boats in two different streams that are ideologically drifting and pushing further and further apart’.

  60. Further to art-upon-mu’s and trashed’s comments on the seemingly infallible parties like KMT of Taiwan,LDP of Japan and Congress Party of India, those countries are not mired in race and religion issues.Here these issues top the list in their election agenda.Besides the political parties are not formed along racial lines like here.Thus under this unfortunately unique situation in Malaysia I honestly think even to deny BN a two thirds majority is an impossible task given the current political climate prevailing here.The opposition parties don’t see the need to form a united opposition front against the mighty machinery of the BN.Also the general populace are not angry enough to show their anger thro the ballot box.They are quite happy getting the crumps thrown off the UMNO table.We are likely to get another 50 years of UMNO era.

  61. Hey, I don’t mind about being stranded in Bangkok. If ever I find myself stranded in Bangkok I’d visit my favourite “No hands restaurant” and if Phatpong is still the place it once was for foreign visitors, I’d would like a piece of that action too.

  62. Ooops sorry, one senior minister just found his “bola” ie Bernad Dompok, Minister in the PM Dept. At last he picked up courage to speak his mind. In his speech at the launching of ‘The Merdeka Statement’ in KL today, Dompok said, ” For all intents and purposes, I think Malaysia was not meant to be an Islamic state” .

    Good for you Dompok! At least you can sleep well tonight., I am sure of that. Malaysiakini.com has a full report on his speech.

    Anymore “Jantans” around? Speak out and be counted. If you don’t, just remember that when they come for you, there will be no one left to speak out.

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