Information Minister, Datuk Seri Zainuddin Maidin would do greater good as Information Minister to inform himself to understand the deep well-springs of disappointment and frustration among Malaysians with the Federal Court 2-1 decision on the Lina Joy case instead of just demonizing the foreign media as is his wont.
Yesterday, Zainuddin accused the western media for taking advantage of the court decision in the Lina Joy case to run down Malaysia as an Islamic country that practises injustice.
He cited the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) for using the “screaming headline”, “Malaysia Rejects Christian Appeal”, and The Times for saying that the court decision is “a slap in the face for religious freedom in Malaysia”.
The BBC, the Times and the Western media should be perfectly capable of defending themselves against the attacks by Zainuddin that they “will use any opportunity for ‘Islamic bashing’ without regard for any country as long as it practises Islamic law”.
The pertinent question is whether Zainuddin understands the widespread and deep-seated anxieties and fears by thoughtful Malaysians whose only concern is to preserve and uphold the Merdeka “Social Contract” entered into by the forefathers of the major communities build a nation founded on the constitutional principles of freedom of religion, the Constitution as the supreme law of the land and Malaysia as a secular nation with Islam as the official religion but not an Islamic state; but who see these principles being relentlessly eroded particularly in the past decade.
Zainuddin, the Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department, Datuk Seri Nazri Aziz and even the Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi have come out publicly in support of the Federal Court’s 2-1 decision in rejecting the Lina Joy appeal.
Abdullah said no pressure had been exerted on the judges by the government in the Lino Joy judgment.
I accept Abdullah’s assurance, but then even the former Prime Minister, Tun Dr. Mahathir Mohamad would have been able to make such statements with a straight face because pressures on judges would not have been exercised in a direct fashion even in Mahathir’s 22 years as Prime Minister.
But this does not mean that there is in Malaysia an environment where a truly independent judiciary and a just rule of law could flourish or Malaysia would not have lost in the past two decades its high international reputation for judicial independence, integrity and impartiality recognized universally in the first three decades of nationhood.
With Abdullah, Nazri and Zainuddin making their public stand in support of the Federal Court decision in the Lina Joy case, what is the position of the non-Umno Ministers, whether MCA, Gerakan, MIC, SUPP, PBS or other Sabah and Sarawak component parties of the Barisan Nasional?
Or do we have a position where Cabinet Ministers are only permitted to make public their position on the Federal Court decision in the Lina Joy case if it is one of support, but not one of opposition?
It is a matter of concern that as Information Minister who keeps track of world-wide media coverage, Zainuddin is not in the least concerned that the Lina Joy case is one the biggest P.R. disasters for Malaysia in recent times — particularly with our attempt to promote “Visit Malaysia Year 2007” and generally present a good image of the country in the era of borderless world of globalization.
A check with news.google.com shows that the Federal Court decision on Lino Joy had generated some 400 reports in various media all over the world in the past 48 hours — portraying Malaysia as a country where fundamental liberties and civil rights are not accorded their proper protection.
If Malaysia is to be an active player in the world of globalization, the government must be gravely concerned by this development which must be regarded as a double minus both nationally and internationally.
What is religious freedom if citizens are not allowed to follow the faith of their choosing?
http://in.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2007-06-02T102005Z_01_NOOTR_RTRJONC_0_India-301120-1.xml&archived=False
A Malaysian Muslim man switched at birth in a hospital mix-up has filed a lawsuit seeking to become a Buddhist and have his name changed, newspapers reported on Saturday. The suit, filed in a civil court, comes within days of Malaysia’s best-known Christian convert, Lina Joy, losing a battle in the country’s highest court to have the word “Islam” removed from her identity card.
That ruling threatened to further polarise Malaysian society between non-Muslims who feel that their constitutional right to religious freedom is being eroded, and Muslims who believe that civil courts have no right to meddle in Islamic affairs. The judge said the civil court had no jurisdiction in the case and it should be dealt with by the country’s Islamic courts.
But sales executive Zulhaidi Omar, 29, is seeking a declaration from the National Registration Department that he is a Buddhist and his name should have been Eddie Teyo, the New Straits Times reported….
http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9262452
“EVERY person has the right to profess and practise his religion.†Article 11 of Malaysia’s constitution could hardly be more definitive. Yet Lina Joy, who has fought for nine years for the right to convert from Islam to Christianity, was told by the country’s Supreme Court on May 30th that the guarantee is worthless to her….
http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=9431&size=A
two legislations exist in the country: Islamic and constitutional, which are often conflicting. In the case of Lina Joy this is evident: the Constitution guarantees freedom of religion; Islamic law punishes conversion to another religion.
maybe we need to extend “Visit Malaysia Year 2007 to Year 2008”
The Lina Joy case is a landmark which proves a reality known to all right thinking person; That is Malaysia is a country ruled by a bunch of bigots who are corrupt & crooked. The practice nepostism and treat others without any sense of respect or consideration.
Lina Joy, I salute you for standing up to this. You are a true Malaysian who want to change the country from its filthy institutions to the ideals of the founders.
If Malaysia is really to be taken as an “example for all Muslim countries”, as they keep on saying, I really fear for what is going to become of the world. Malaysia should be shown as another very bad example of a country. Not only a Muslim one. What a shame!
How can we force a person either to go to
Hell …. or to
Heaven ??
Even God could not do that……But…..
Malaysia Boleh!!!
“If Malaysia is to be an active player in the world of globalization, the government must be gravely concerned by this development”
Wrong, sorry. In my own humble opinion and observation, this is not any longer a concern of the current government. To me, it rather looks like looking inward, syok sendiri.
As far as my observation goes, the current state of ideas looks at bangsa malaysia as a common ‘feel-proud’ of what Malaysia has achieved. No more interest at all what the rest of the world might think. Something like ‘we are the masters of our country, we are the majority, we are great, we are achievers’.
Yes bad PR and also a sad day for Malaysia. The court verdict against Lina Joy has destroyed her bid to have her religious choice be seen as a matter of personal conscience rather than a state imposed obligation. Whilst the angry young men rejoice and shout “Allah-o-Akbarâ€Â, the Muslim religion again trumps the constitution and provides yet another early indication that the cracks are widening in this so-called rights based democracy.
Talkin of the country’s PR campaign, this verdict and other sad cases such as that of Subashini Rajasperhaps, may mean that the country’s tourist promotion board needs to rework its “Truly Asia†campaign. Perhaps now they need to market as ‘Malaysia truly Arabia’. Actually the government sometime back removed its English street names so it should be no problem for them to re-brand KL as the centre of “ASIARABIA†and perhaps they could call it ‘Riyadh Lumpur’. Oh yes and of course Putrajaya could become Meccaminor.
Now get the tune in the head and its… Malaysia…. truly Arabia… yessssirrrr sounds great.
Ric
http://caliibre.blogspot.com/
The amendments to the Constitution have not improved religious matters and in fact some will think have worsened it as the civil court judges dare not make a stand as far as religious issues are concerned.
It is up to the MPs to make the proper amendments so that ALL Malaysians enjoy a basic right to religious freedom.
http://malaysiawatch2.blogspot.com/2007/06/religious-freedom-back-to-constitution.html
“…what is the position of the non-Umno Ministers, whether MCA, Gerakan, MIC,…”?
Hon. Mr. Lim, MCA, Gerakan and MIC can’t say anything because they were dead long time ago.
“Zainuddin accused the western media for taking advantage of the court decision in the Lina Joy case to run down Malaysia as an Islamic country that practises injustice.”
What can the Minister of (Mis)Information do? He must toe the party line and say what the boss (PM) wants.
“It is a matter of concern that as Information Minister who keeps track of world-wide media coverage, Zainuddin is not in the least concerned that the Lina Joy case is one the biggest P.R. disasters for Malaysia in recent times – particularly with our attempt to promote “Visit Malaysia Year 2007†and generally present a good image of the country in the era of borderless world of globalization.” Kit
Sorry buddy! Malaysia is not in the business of pleasing anybody. It is a sovereign state and why should it submit to the demands of countries who do not agree with her.
The Lina Joy case is not a PR matter.
It is a matter of whether Malaysia should maintain its double tracked system of justice (civil and syariah), or embarrass itself in the eyes of the international community for having a constitution and yet not the will to abide by it.
“The Lina Joy case is a landmark which proves a reality known to all right thinking person; That is Malaysia is a country ruled by a bunch of bigots..”
Even the bigots have their freedom – the freedom to be a bigot. That’s democracy.
ABB commented that in the news that all should accept the Lina Joy court’s decision with an open-mind.
Now, I wonder if the court’s decision was in favoured of Lina Joy, would the muslim in Malaysia take the decision with an open-mind?
Wake up ABB.
“He (Minister of Information) said the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) had used the screaming headline “Malaysia Rejects Christian Appeal” in its news portal while The Times had said that the court decision is a slap in the face for religious freedom in Malaysia.
“This is clear proof that the western media will use any opportunity for ‘Islamic bashing’ …”
Well, Malaysia welcome to the club. This is democracy. Get used to it. Opinion at home can be suppressed through its laws. Internationally it is a different matter.
So aren’t you overreacting a little here? Do what you think is right and get on with it. Who cares what the foreign media is saying. And for those who think that the Lina Joy case may have an impact on the tourist flow to Malaysia, you gotta be one naive SOB.
“Lina Joy, I salute you for standing up to this. You are a true Malaysian who want to change the country from its filthy institutions to the ideals of the founders.”
Lina Joy did not stand up to anything or anybody but herself. She is an old spinster who desperately wants to marry a cook. There are so many cooks but she must settle on this one. After so many years the other cooks have long left and are now cooking for somebody else.
Why don’t you guys leave her alone!
I wonder how would the decision be made if it were made by Prophet Muhammad? I think the outcome will be a different one.
“Now, I wonder if the court’s decision was in favoured of Lina Joy, would the muslim in Malaysia take the decision with an open-mind?
Wake up ABB.” Wong
I suggest you wake up and smell the coffee! They will first need to change the composition of the Federal Court panel first or have the Court sit en banc.
It is a cardinal sin for one Muslim to facilitate the conversion of a fellow Muslim to another faith.
Izrael.
Don’t be taken in by all the talk of religious tolerance. Here is one verse in the Qur’an which says otherwise:
“A major area of disagreement is freedom of religion. The Qur’an vigorously denounces those who renounce Islam, for “the Devil has seduced them’ away from the true faith (67:25). Abu Bakr, and jurists since then condemned secession from Islam (ridda) as doubly heinous: it is not only a violation of the compact of submission, but also a breach of contract wiht Allah’s representatives on earth. It is an offense both against God and the state, it is both apostasy and treason. Far from having the right to become the right to become a non-Moslem, the Moslem faces the death penalty as a sanction for such a charge.”
It is hilarious to read all the crap people are saying. The reality is there is the civil law and there is the syariah law and there is the double tracked system of civil and syariah legal system.
The Malays want to remain Muslims. Who are you guys to tell them what they should believe and not believe? Of course, as in all cases there would be a few stragglers who do not fit the norm and want to marry cooks of their choice and live elsewhere. What’s wrong with helping them exercise their freedom of speech – and allow them leave??
Is this Lina Joy being detained by the moral police who had earlier raided her home in the early hours of the morning and dragged her struggling and kicking to a detention centre at some undisclosed location??
Zainuddin always talk through his nose.
“What is the position of the non-Umno Ministers, whether MCA, Gerakan, MIC, SUPP, PBS or other Sabah and Sarawak component parties of the Barisan Nasional?”
They are all cronies and “yes-man”, just those self enriching individuals in the parties who care for nothing other than their personal power in order to accummulate personal wealth as quick as they can.
They do not command respect from the community they claim to represent.
No, count Dracula, the moral police haven’t drag Lina to detention yet. You can be sure that if they get her, they will detain her for 100 days in “rehabilitation” and then extend another 80 days and then….sorry I don’t know what else would happen.
HJ Angus Says:
June 2nd, 2007 at 6:55 pm
The amendments to the Constitution have not improved religious matters and in fact some will think have worsened it as the civil court judges dare not make a stand as far as religious issues are concerned.
It is up to the MPs to make the proper amendments so that ALL Malaysians enjoy a basic right to religious freedom.
Right on, Angus, but may I qualify about the civil court judges not daring to make a stand on religious issue? The civil court judges are Muslim judges as the non-Muslim judges have so far stood up to what they believe are right constitutionally. It is disappointing that judiciary decisions are colored by the racial and religious backgrounds of the judges. In a sense we have not matured to distinguish our preferences from what are provided for by our laws. Perhaps it is out of fear of repercussions that they cannot control.
Regarding dependence on our MPs to make the amendments to the constitutions, forget it since the majority are Malays who see any attempt to do that as a betrayal of their faith. My question is whether the Koran requires Muslims to deny their fellow Muslims the freedom of choice to leave if they find it not to their liking or if they decided other faith gives them better assurance of the after life. I believe we need to hear clearly from an Islamic scholar to set this matter right in order that non-Muslims who wish to embrace Islam know the dire consequence. Likewise Muslims who feel strongly that their religious rights are being eroded should not remain quiet.
Dracula, who is this ‘Devil’ that seduce her? you mean non-muslim are ‘devils’. I advice you to visit this site http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/video/stoning video 100kbps.wmv
You’re all missing the point. The argument still lies in our fundamental rights as accorded in the Federal Constitution. The constitution is not just a piece of paper but a contractual agreement that seeks to safeguard our rights. And religious freedom was enshrined in it way before the formation of Syariah Courts.
The decision by the High Court literally ripped to shreds our rights accorded in the constitution. In most countries, having a written constitution means that the Judiciary is supreme and not parliament. The law is enacted in parliament but the interpretation is carried out in courts by judges who then seek to interpret the laws. This makes judges supreme and judicial independence is one of the most important aspects of the country. Unlike the UK where they do not have a written constitution and it is parliament who is supreme and not the judiciary. Even then, their rights are still held in high regard.
That’s why our judicial integrity is seen to be so bad in recent times and it’s because the judiciary is not seen to be as independent as possible. Cases like these only reaffirms what many people think. Remember the sacking of the 5 Supreme Court judges in the early 90’s? That was and still is fresh in many peoples minds.
This decision is a landmark decision and it will be used as a benchmark in all future cases. This means we cannot use the constitution or Article 11 anymore to argue any cases that are similar in nature. This had nothing to do with religion. It was and still is about what we are entitled to in our constitution. The very same document our forefathers used to gain independence from the British. And we wanted independence from the British because we didn’t want any masters. Now, the difference is just that we have different masters.
“Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department Datuk Seri Nazri Aziz, who is the de facto law minister, urged everyone to respect the decision and not to speculate that Ms Lina would not stand a chance in the Syariah Court.
‘What is the point of keeping a person a Muslim if they no longer believed in the faith and made that publicly known?’ he asked.”
So watcha gonna do about it Nazri? Amend the Constitution to make everything clear and smooth? Ensure non-Muslims have their place in the sun as a Raja Muda suggests, and not be required to kowtow to a Court which they do not recognise?
Will Nazri ensure that those who no longer profess Islam and make their stand clear, be permitted to leave the religion with out any hassles?
Why make non-muslims go to Syariah court to seek redress? Would muslims submit to Christain, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Sikh laws, customs and practices? Huh?
Why do muslims fear dialogues and refuse to participate in the Inter Faith Commission?
Recent court cases involving actions taken by non-Muslims against the government and religious authorities have all given Bolehland a very, very bad name and image. High-handedness by the religious authorities, the police and Rela have all been bad news for us. Even other muslim countries are embarassed by what we are doing to the Islamic religion, I am told.
It is now time for ‘sleeping beauty’ to wake up and realise international opinion is against us and is doing us harm. Or perhaps we got him all wrong. He’s Rip van Winkle.
“…//…The Malays want to remain Muslims. Who are you guys to tell them what they should believe and not believe?…//….†Count Dracula
None of the guys here are trying to tell Muslims – or, for that matter, non Muslims as well – what they should believe and not believe.
The people here merely support their right to choose their beliefs, whatever they may be, as guaranteed by Article 11 of the Federal Constitution enshrining Freedom of Religion as a personal choice.
The people here are against the State dictating to an individual , whether Muslim or Non Muslim, such a choice.
The State should be neutral and not use its apparatus to support any particular religion. That is the basis of a secular state and a secular constitution. And that is the principle which the decision of Lina Joy appears to put on stake here.
The Options are apparent here : we either fight to maintain the secular character of the Constitution which many people hold was the original intent of the forefathers of the ‘Social Contract OR let the country become an Islamic State as many amongst the faithfuls would aspire.
One cannot blame the many people here who defend the secular principle of the Constitution and the State (as against an Islamic state) which is why they would support Lina Joy whether she was born a Muslim or non muslim – because the fate of one hints to the collective fate of all!!!
….//….With Abdullah, Nazri and Zainuddin making their public stand in support of the Federal Court decision in the Lina Joy case, what is the position of the non-Umno Ministers, whether MCA, Gerakan, MIC, SUPP, PBS or other Sabah and Sarawak component parties of the Barisan Nasional?…//…†YB Kit.
They are ‘loudly’ silent. Silence is however not suggestive of consent. It is suggestive of reluctance or cowardice (depending on whether one is supporter or detractor) to state a public stand.
Lina Joy’s decision draws the axis cutting across and between muslim majority based and non muslim majority based parties.
Whether it is bad PR for the country or otherwise, PAS is with UMNO on this one. PAS spiritual advisor Nik Aziz Nik Mat likened those who have renounced Islam to army deserters because religion, like other institutions, is bound by rules. “It’s like joining the army. You can choose to join. But if you wear a uniform, start training only to desert later, you’ll be caught by the military police,†he told a press conference in Kota Baru last night – Malaysiakini reported.
The stand of most Malay muslims on the implications of Lina Joy’s decision may be speculated but not empirically known, there being no polls taken to canvass opinions. If there were any dissent by more moderate muslims on it, they certainly have not voiced it out.
If the Constitution is amended until it is mutilated beyond recognition then it is not worth the paper it is written on! It is only good as toilet paper for Papa Lah to use. He does not need to go to Japan to look for a Japanese made toilet paper.
Yep. There are lots of Masters in the art gallery. But nowadays they make very good Masters.
The Lina Joy case is prime example that both the constitution and the law have failed. It again proves that the majority (meaning Malays/Muslims) have no respect nor accord any dignity to the minorities/non-muslims. The only 3 solutions I see to are:
1. Leave Malaysia
2. Cut off the songkok on the small head, fix it on the large head and call yourself muslim
3. War
I like #3 personally because the malays are cowards to only know how to threaten, ex. Hisap-mmudin with his kris….
“You’re all missing the point.”
And what point might that be??
“The decision by the High Court literally ripped to shreds our rights accorded in the constitution. In most countries, having a written constitution means that the Judiciary is supreme and not parliament.”
That’s crap!
Either Parliament is supreme or the Constitution. Never heard of the Judiciary being supreme. LOL.
Count Dracula says:
“The Malays want to remain Muslims.”
Correction. They are forced to.
Try removing the “Malay must be Muslim” clause from the constituition & then we’ll see if they still want to remain Muslim. But then again, we all know what will the outcome be, don’t we?
How could the Judiciary be supreme when members of the Judiciary could be sacked??
Hey Raj,
You bought that stuff??
The Malays wanna be Muslims i.e. when their women are not busy looking for cooks to marry.
Why not being Muslims means having four wives to slave for you day and night. You can put all four under one roof too! Try having foursome anywhere else!
..and when you’re tired, FIFO takes over. Drop the oldest and marry another SYT. When can I become a Muslim?
The Coliseum that is part of the itinerary of every tourist visiting Rome today was in ancient time an imperial circus. Romans gathered there to be entertained by their Emperor, the Defender of the Roman Faith. They enjoyed the gore of Christians being thrown into the Coliseum to fight gladiators or face the imperial menagerie of wild beasts. Christians could be spared with royal clemency – if they converted to the Roman Gods, Jupiter and Mars by performing the ritual of burning the incense. Many refused to do so. They believed in martyrdom. It was a way to settle all scores of past sins, be redeemed and delivered to Heaven.
Against such a setting, England’s greatest playwright, second only to Shakespeare, George Bernard Shaw wrote his famous play, “Androcles and the Lion†in 1912. A meek tailor Androcles, a Christian, fleeing persecution in Rome, befriends a lion after pulling a painful thorn from its paw. Captured by Caesar’s men, Androcles is sent to the Coliseum to face the lions along with other Christians captured including Ferrovius, a fierce fighter, Lavinia, a beautiful aristocrat with whom the Captain of Roman Centurion Legion falls in love and is smitten, Spintho, who always seeks martyrdom. The Christians refuse to burn the incense. All want to be martyrs and die for their faith. They only know how strong is their faith and what it means for them as the hour of trial approaches.
Spintho, who always wants to be a martyr but is weak, chickens out at the eleventh hour, runs accidentally into an area where lions are kept and dies ignominiously by being eaten by them. Ferrovius, also wanting to be a martyr faces the gladiators to be killed by them but in the last minute, the warrior part of him gets the better, he fights back and kills all many of the gladiators. The Emperor is so pleased that he offers Ferrovius a position of honour and luxury as the Emperor’s gladiators and he accepts it. Ferrovius has found his true calling, and martyrdom can wait.
The Captain pleads with Lavinia to burn the incense and be spared. He says it is a sin to gratify the lust of the mob gathered there to see the limbs of a woman being torn by lions. What is the big deal of burning the incense? What is she dying for? He says, after all no respectable and educated Roman or even the Emperor believes in the fables stories and miracles of the Roman Gods, Jupiter, Diana and Mars anymore than Christians. He wants her to live and marry him. (Lavinia is also attracted to the Captain. She describes him as handsome and distinguished.)
But she will not burn the incense. She asks the captain, why would he want to marry a woman who is a coward and have children taking after her in cowardice? In Lavinia, the play’s central theme is revealed – one must have something worth dying for–an end outside oneself–to make that life worth living.
The situation resolves itself in an unexpected way. A big hungry lion enters the arena, snarling aggressively. The Lion suddenly recognizes Androceles as one who pulls a painful thorn from its paw. It becomes happy purring kitten full of happiness and joy and embraces Androceles in a waltz. The Emperor is amazed and declares that if Christians have such powers, he too would convert to Christianity. He pardons the Christians.
Androcles and the Lion uses slapstick humour, verbal wit and physical humour in outlining Shaw’s themes.
Shaw explains some of these themes in the preface to the play. He says that his Christians – how each reacts and holds his/her faith and what it means for each at the supreme hour of trial – are true for all faithfuls of all times.
His says that the persecution of the Christians by the Romans and the Emperor as the defender of their faith (Jupiter, Diana and Mars) is also a persecution that is recurring at all times. But what is the object of persecution? Is it because of different interpretation and beliefs of a different faith inclusive of the rites, the many stories and parables of miracles and what a faith could do or over the Almighty Himself?
Shaw says that persecution is always in defense of vested interest (of power and/or wealth and privileges). His persecuted and persecutor are the persecuted and persecutor of all times.
In reference to Jesus, Shaw says that the vested interests of Jewish clergy were threatened by Jesus and his teachings of being King of Jews and used his driving of money-changers out of the temple as an excuse to persecute him.
Roman Governor Pilate was actually willing to give Jesus a way out. Pilate went out to the Jews again, and told them, “I find no crime in him. But you have a custom that I should release one man for you at the Passover; will you have me release for you the King of the Jews or Barab’bas? (Barabbas was a robber) The mob gathered there cried out again, “Not this man, but Barab’bas – free Barab’bas!” (John 18:33-40)
The choice of Barabbas thus appears as a popular choice of the militant advocate of physical force as against the unresisting advocate of mercy. The moral of the story those who are militant always get their way, even often the wrong way whilst the advocate of peace, dialogue, calm and rationality get sidelined.
End of the story in the Play Androcles and the Lion. My apologies to all for the long post & story telling.
why this problem is happening to the Indian communities? do they take religion so lightly and then can be a frog all the time? then they have to pay for the price. i can hardly believe that we don’t have an understanding of the consequences once you masuk islam.
I believe those lawmakers are cracking their big heads regarding possible amendment to get back the freedom of religion and others that are rightfully ours. Let’s all salute Lina Joy !! Unfortunately, now becomes No Joy !!
hi jeffrey,
great post abt Shakespeare’s play and the paraphrase from the Bible …
Unfortunately, I doubt many Msians have even heard of Shakespeare’s plays (except for maybe Romeo & Juliet, even then, most would only have watched the bastardized movie version by Leonardo Dicaprio) much less George Bernard Shaw.
Through inferior education, Msians in generally have been incapacitated in their thinking thus allowing the rot in the government to reach such a state. Msians have been reduced to dumb zombies, if a ‘Lina Joy’ incident happens in US or UK or any mature societies, you can be sure that there be huge debates and calls for change. Sadly, not so in Malaysia. Even the Thais and Indos are better than us in this aspect; they dare to stand up for freedom and democracy (Examples: the recent protest in Thailand to pressure the ruling military gov to hold elections).
well,
Count Dracula Says:
(June 2nd, 2007 at 8:50 pm)
Izrael.
Don’t be taken in by all the talk of religious tolerance. Here is one verse in the Qur’an which says otherwise:
“A major area of disagreement is freedom of religion. The Qur’an vigorously denounces those who renounce Islam, for “the Devil has seduced them’ away from the true faith (67:25). Abu Bakr, and jurists since then condemned secession from Islam (ridda) as doubly heinous: it is not only a violation of the compact of submission, but also a breach of contract wiht Allah’s representatives on earth. It is an offense both against God and the state, it is both apostasy and treason. Far from having the right to become the right to become a non-Moslem, the Moslem faces the death penalty as a sanction for such a charge.â€Â
Well,
When A triad member Try to leave the triad organisation, its leader would to have him killed…
When a Sect member try to leave the organisation, Its leader would order him to be killed too(because he commit the unforgiveable sin against the Sect’s god)….
So there is the similarity….
But other religions leave it to God for the judgment…
“Is this Lina Joy being detained by the moral police who had earlier raided her home in the early hours of the morning and dragged her struggling and kicking to a detention centre at some undisclosed location??”
Er…no actually. That’s Subashini and Raimah.
moving forward…the government should introduce a smoother process for people who voluntarily want to convert out of islam…ensure faster processing of certificates of apostacy…shorter islamic rehabilitation period to 15 mins with no extensions…amend the shariah laws to no incarceration but a minimal fine for these apostates…maybe sentence them to community service…whatever it takes to get it over and done with…Malaysia Boleh!
We will ALL be judged by God one day; for those involved in the decision directly or indirectly, prepare yourself for the final judgment. It does not end here :-)
Lina Joy converted to Christianity and started to use her brain that God gave. She is still free and will remain free from the “moral police”.
It is clear that Malaysia is in deep [deleted] after Lina Joy case. We need a Savior to save our country now! Can someone tell me who is our hero? DAP, MCA,.. or keadilan?? (let’s ask what Anwar’s think..)
It very sad. Where is religious freedom which is guaranteed in the Constitution. What point is there to deny an invidual the official recognition of religion if he/she does not profess his/hers religion anymore?
The law can deny recoginition of one’s religion, but can it deny one’s faith in his/her chosen religion?
This is just like marrying a person without love. The law can do whatever to a person, but it can never ever change a person’s believe and faith.
Lina Joy, you are not alone! We stand firmly behind you.
Please, there is no religion on earth, but only teaching left by saints. It teaches us not to blindly follow what is being taught in ‘religion’. In fact, you must understand, evaluate, try to practise, live it and think whether it’s right or wrong. Especially nowadays where most of the scriptures are edited to suit to the power and influence of the editor at that time.
It saddening to see people all around the world are fighting over religion. It’s even more saddening this happens to our peaceful country and read people’s comment talking about religion. They are nothing like a parrot repeating and memorising each paragrah of scriptures they read.
Where 7 colours of rainbow should shine beautifully in the sky, giving people a sense of delightfulness upon seeing it, it’s a pity people are arguing and fighting over which colour they are. Truthfully, those 7 colours origin from 1 source where we are all the same.
So, please grow up. Should you want to talk about religion, please understand the subject matter. Dont mix things up.
Don’t forget the 72 virgins. I wonder why only 72.
Could Lina Joy be the 73rd virgin?
“My question is whether the Koran requires Muslims to deny their fellow Muslims the freedom of choice to leave…” petyew
Of course not! The concept of freedom to leave or apostasy does not arise. How could it? It is like telling someone if you don’t like it you can jump from the 74th floor of the building. Suicide is a sin against God himself.
Furthermore, we don’t even know if God is a He or a She. We should be careful or else the DAP might call us ‘sexists’ for doing the ‘bocor’ dance.
I am a Malaysian Chinese and I believe in Christ. I love Malaysia and I am proud to be a Malaysian. It is not easy to have peace everyday in a country that has multi racial community. I see China, where all are Chinese, yet I don’t sense the same freedom I enjoy in Malaysia. I see Indonesia, where everyone looks a like, but yet, diverse religion……..Again, I don’t sense the same level of peace and calm that I enjoy in Malaysia.
So let me begin to share my perspective as a Malaysian about Lina Joy. Lina Joy is a Christian. She is not denied from receiving Christ as her personal Savior by the courts of Malaysia. So, lets stop focusing on differences and aggravating the differences to pain. We live in a multi racial country. Such discussion, in the tone of dividing people and sowing mistrust with each other will only hurt everyone.
The bible does not say that we will loose our salvation if we are lable as a non believer by man. Man is not greater than God. No where in the bible that says, we will loose our passport to heaven if we are buried in a wrong burial ground. All these arguments are waste of time for Christians. We matured Christians look at the spiritual realm of life. We worship our lord in Spirit and in Truth. Spiritually, Lina Joy is abundant of joy in Christ. The Truth, she has her full blessing and joy to worship Christ as her personal savior.
Jesus never advocates confrontational ways to fight for titles or labels. He is against all forms of confrontation with non believers. He is only confrontational towards our own kind ( Pharisees )……… never towards a non believer. If we live by the sword, we die by the sword……….says Jesus.
Lets focus on building bridges and stop running down our fellow Malaysians. I am proud to live in Malaysia and we should do what it takes to make it work in Malaysia.
Malaysia is for all Malaysian.
(Some facts that need to be highlighted in regards to Article 11……….everyone can profess and practice their freedom freely, but the Constitution also added that this is not entirely so for the ones professing Islam. I believe we can only change the constitution in the parliament, not in done by the courts in Malaysia
Below is the First and Fourth Clause in Article 11 of Malaysian Constitution
Article 11
1. Every person has the right to profess and practice his religion and, subject to Clause (4), to propagate it.
4. State law and in respect of the Federal Territories of Kuala Lumpur and Labuan, federal law may control or restrict the propagation of any religious doctrine or belief among persons professing the religion of Islam.)
Forrest Gump has an IQ of 74. Don’t be below him.
No one is propagating anything to Lina Joy. She is the one who for wharever reason professes to being a Christian. It concerns Article 11(1) – “Every person has the right to profess and practice his religion”.
The qualification “subject to Clause (4), to propagate it” is not relevant here because there is no propagation….
I would like to clarify one fact in msoh’s rather lengthy message. It is true that the supreme court cannot change the constitution, only parliament can do that with 2/3 majority voting for the amendment.
However, it is the court’s duty to interpret and uphold the constitution. This includes rendering defunct any articles of the law or government policy that has been deemed unconstitutional by the court. If bill has passed, even with overwhelming majority, and, even if it becomes a popular article of the law embraced by the majority of the populace, the court must render that article defunct if that law was unconstitutional.
One may expect such an action from a rational government. Sadly ours is not. In fact ours is facist government, with power consolidated to one single party, UMNO.
///It concerns Article 11(1) – “Every person has the right to profess and practice his religionâ€Â.///
The wording in the constitution should read ” Except for muslims, every person has the right to profess and practice his religion” to accord with reality in Malaysia.
BoDo Singh,
Don’t ask stupid questions and make stupid remarks and contribute effectively like most of everyone else here.
Enhance our knowledge and refrain from saying things you obviously don’t know much about and in effect, make yourself sound like your name.
Lina Joy underlined that Malaysia is an Islamic state ruled by syariah law. Is doesnt matter there is one written constitution. Its a precedent now that this unwritten constitution rule overides every other laws pertaining to Islamic issues in all court of law. In practice you are living in a secular state, but, in court of law its a syariah sectarian rule…….there is no double system ! Syariah is supreme.
Only political muscles can change this rule provided the “mob” accept such political consensus. I think it will take another 200 years to realise that when nations evolve to a higher consciouness state. Can a PM works like a government servant like those in Scandinavian?
It is obvious that this is all done in the name of political expediency, to counter PAS raging urge of Islamisation. Islam is a beautiful religion but our Muslim politicians had made it ugly and this will definitely create a crater to divide the races. All the superfluous efforts mooted by UMNO for unity and harmony will come to naught if they continue to make use of religion for their political agenda. It will be a sin and against humanity to force a religion down on somebody’s throat but some politicians choose to believe that political interests over rides everything.
At the same time any judge who considers his race and religion first and as a judge last is not worth two cents.
Marmitecrab,
BoDo Singh may be bodoh for choosing that handle. But let’s address ourselves to the issues raised.
The ‘concept’ of the supremacy of the Judiciary is innovative to those who are only acquainted with the traditional concepts of the Supremacy of Parliament and the Supremacy of the Constitution.
Please explain to us lesser mortals as to how you come to believe in the concept of the Judiciary when as BoDo says members of the Judiciary could be replaced by the Executive.
There are three branches of government (legislative, executive and judiciary) and none of these could hope to be supreme because of the Constitution. The issue of which is more supreme by necessity involves only Parliament (the country’s highest law making, legislative body) and the Constitution. Parliament makes the laws but it cannot pass laws which are against the Constitution unless the Constitution is first amended.
Your thoughts?
Dear Kit, – this may sound preposterous to most, but I believe a solution to our legal system and other anomalies in Malaysia cannot be found at these forums, but at a higher register. We are shouting ourselves hoarse because, when it comes down the pike, a true adherent found on the bench or in Parliament, presupposing they are, just cannot be expected or depended on to defend a ‘secular constitution’ notwithstanding their oath to do so when they assumed office.
Consider this Kit. A theological cloak is thrown over ‘Sufi’ Malaysia by the ‘Wahabbi’ when our first Prime Minister was appointed OIC Secretary General in 1969. At that juncture, Malaysia was deemed ‘mildly Islamic’.
Then with the 121 amendment in 1988 and the ‘We are an Islamic country’ declaration 14 years later, Malaysia assumed the OIC chairmanship which saw the awakening of JAIS and its attendants.
Now, Islamists within and without, are decreeing that the cloak will totally envelope the country by 2020, maybe sooner.
” ‘mildly Islamic’ is as plausible as a woman being ‘mildly pregnant’ ” – Amil Imani
Kit, what I’m saying is that to achieve a solution from a higher register, Malaysia has to remove this cloak off completely and to do so it has to, preposterous as it may sound, first dislodge itself from the Organisation of Islamic Conference, while announcing in no uncertain terms that it is ‘SECULAR’ in that it is, metaphorically speaking, un-islamic, un-christian, un-hindu, un-buddhist, un-sikh, whatever; and while at it, it should withdraw itself as signatory to the Cairo Declaration signed in 1990. Articles 24 and 25 is the catch-22 which runs Cairo against the UNDHR signed a few years earlier.
What I’m saying is that the OIC and Cairo are two of several yokes which compel Malaysia to wear a religious linguistic in the public domain.
What I’m saying is that removing these yokes would produce a greater top-down effect, in that bench and parliament will find it easier keeping their religious linguistic private where it belongs and consequently, easier defending and defining the constitution.
Wishful thinking Kit? Would you consider moving a bill to dislodge?.
In addition to the move suggested by Tom is there any way an appeal can be made to a higher body that would look into the situation of non Muslim discrimination in Malaysia. There must be a way to undo the situation in Malaysia through international pressure much like how apartheid was finally dismantled in South Africa.
I remember telling a Malay friend long ago that we have all races represented in our Church except the Malay race. I was wrong, because even then, there were Malay converts, living abroad,
practising Christianity. Lina Joy is the last, known, case! However, I do wish Malays did not have flee the country ,or go underground, to practise Christianity! Maybe there will be a time when Malays too, will be free to chose their religion and live in Malaysia without persecution.
As a Christian myself, I praise God for the one dissenting voice of one of the 3 judges. This will not be the end of LJ’s case and the Almighty One will speak with a louder voice one day,,,,