The Federal Court 2-1 majority decision rejecting Lina Joy’s appeal marks a tectonic shift of Malaysia in moving further and further away from the Merdeka “Social Contract” founding principles of nation-building agreed by the forefathers of the major communities on the attainment of independent nationhood.
It casts a larger shadow over the national horizon with the country entering the second half-century of nationhood, with increasing doubts among Malaysians about the meaning, permanence, sustainability and viability of constitutional guarantees, civil liberties and fundamental rights.
This is because the Lina Joy case has shattered confidence in the constitutional guarantees on freedom of religion, the Constitution as the supreme law of the land and above all, the sacred Merdeka “Social Contract” underlying the Constitution that Malaysia is a secular nation with Islam as the official religion but not an Islamic state.
Malaysians alarmed at the abandonment of the “Social Contract” principles are fully justified in their concerns, especially when one compares as to what would have happened to a Lina Joy case in the first quarter-century of the nation’s history as compared to today when the nation stands on its 50th year of nationhood!
After the disappointing Lina Joy judgment of the Federal Court yesterday, voices were heard from some Islamic groups urging “those hoping for an opposite outcome to reconsider their position and to consider modifying their expectations to suit what is good and more sustainable considering our realities” .
Moderate Malaysians, both Muslim and non-Muslim, must be very concerned by such voices as the same argument with the very same words could be used to justify the complete abandonment of the fundamental secular principle of the “Social Contract” for the establishment of an Islamic State!
On the occasion of Malaysia’s 50th Merdeka anniversary, the question that must be asked and answered by all Malaysians is: Malaysia — Quo Vadis!
I think the Judges (2 of them anyway) were swayed by the rowdy crowd outside…. Need we say anymore? I was brought up to know that religion is a personal communication between god and myself and nobody else. Now it seems my religion is everybody’s business! Susmariosep!!! (In Tagalog, this means Oh! my God!))
I do not know if it is coincidence or not, but the individual judgements of the judges sitting on both the Court of Appeal and the Federal Court seems to follow the religious beliefs of the individual judges.
It would have improved the credibility of the judgement delivered if the Federal Court had had a different racial and religious composition of the judges as compared to the Court of Appeal.
Yes, Malaysia – Quo Vadis!
It is a sad, sad day for Malaysia!
The basic right for any human to choose what he/she would like to believe is not accorded to him/her.
This is a very oppressive trend. The personal belief of a person is being dictated.
All of us should make it known that this is not expedient!
Imtiaz had the right point, that its a dire consequence for RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE, NOT religious freedom. Those who think its about freedom to convert don’t get it at all…
Aiyah, only gentlemen will honour the “Social Contract”, for those who are not, even with black and white also tak boleh pakai.
Mind you!! They will use the KRIS if need to!! this is the hard fact in Malaysia!!!
They can oppress the people for sometime, but they can never oppress the people every time and all the time!!!
All the people should stand up for Lina Joy for her courage and the persecution that she has to go through. Today, it is Lina Joy, tomorrow, it will be you and me!! Read my lips!!
May God bless our country so that this injustice will be stopped once and for all!!
I find it strange that the security at the court was reported in the press to be only 10 men outside and 10 men inside the court.
When they had the Article11 Forum in JB, there were at least 100 men around the place. Maybe the outcome had been accurately predicted?
At times like this we should say a prayer for Lina and all those who need the courage to get closer to a God of their own free will.
http://malaysiawatch2.blogspot.com/2007/05/prayer-for-lina-joy.html
Malaysia seems to spearhead post 9/11 towards a mulsim sumpremo nation. It will not do any good in the world stage of religious affair and/or politico-religio arena. Post 9/11 call for proximity interfaith understanding.
On the same issue, muslim is supreme and is unquestionable in this land. It has now extended such supremacy globally as seen in the cancellation of the recent international interfaith dialogue. As for domestic dialogue is a very no-no. Don’t even think about it!
Where its heading is scary and unpredictable, and what’s predictable is unprintable.
I read somewhere (thestar.com.my)one of the judge was making a comment whether or not one can be a buddhist in the morning, and the same one be a Christian in the evening. The answer is YES. Is not easy being a true buddhist.
You can come in/out 10,000 times to be a buddhist and same time a christain or other faith, the buddhist order were not even make a comment that you should not be one or what. What matter most in the buddhist order is that one can be a true buddhist as per training to arrest the mind! Mind you, you still can call yourself a Christain!
A true buddhist STUDY and PRACTICE is not what every laity thinks clasping hand and kneeling down and make a prayer. A non-buddhist will not understand what’s buddhism. Just only hardly a handful of so-called buddhist themselves understood the true teaching of buddhism. Its that difficult? Yes, its is. Just ask yourself! You need a different mind to understand buddhism. Buddhism is not what everyone seems to understood.
What’s the big deal about it? Nothing, I am taking the privilege to tell you that being a highly learned judge that seems to understand religion, but- exactly, has it being understood in actuality? If not, what do you think of his credibility in uttering such statement as to other religion? Basing on secular law to interpret a religious aspect which has no firm ground on personal requirement, the paramount of it is political supremacy.
If you read beyond the lines from thestar.com.my, quote:from 13th century it was muslim and Malay custom dominating the nation………until the colonial power came over, its strong during those colonial period, and that secular law was interpreted as such……..
Supremacy!
i really amazed by these bunch of people, create their own rules by the name of their god. I really cant wait to see how next GE would be…if this type of stupid government is not going to get a big slap in face!!! pray for the god for your future…!
Where is our religion rights? Don’t have in Malaysia or can’t have it. Does anyone have the rights to denied one freedom in religion in the name of god. Or it’s just the judges own personal preferences. If Lina Joy had chosen another religion other than Islam, let her be. Isn’t this freedom in religion is all about or it’s not?
SIck and tired of all this mess in Malaysia. Collapse ceiling, crack bridges, burst water pipes, finger-pointing, religion freedom, 290 millions spent on building. And still the goverment ‘tak malu’ about it. It’s as though they are very proud about themselves.
The verdict of the court will always be ruled by who sits as judges in the trial rather than by what is in the law. It is always two against one, two are Muslim judges against one non-muslim judge. It is no more coincidental as recorded in the many previous precedents.
So now we all can see that the law of the land is in topsy turvy, High profile cases ruled by grafts, religious cases ruled by the heart rather than by the head.
On the personal level Lina is a fool. If she had really wanted to marry the Mat Salleh cook (cooks make good money in places like Australia) she could have eloped and left without looking back. It was some ten years ago that news of her struggle to break free first got media attention. I see no reason for her to keep the love of her life waiting for decades to take his marriage vows with her. Religion is a personal choice – and so where one chooses to live.
Maybe Lina Joy has left Malaysia by now. Or maybe she waited first to reach the zenith of her career – which is to acquire the ‘rock star’ status both at home and internationally before leaving? Whatever it may be her name has found its way into the law books and she has been given that rock star status, that she so passionately sought, by organizations like Amnesty International. Her name is now ‘cast in stone’ so to speak reminding us of Moses in the Bible when he came down from that mountain after seeing the burning bush (not President Bush) holding the stone tablet in his hands containng the Ten Commandments!
Or were there people from the legal and the not-so-legal fraternity urging her on willing to do work pro bono, giving her false hopes that the civil courts would take jurisdiction of her matter from the syariah courts? Well now, any glimmer of hope remaining has been lost. I could just see in my mind’s eye the glee syariah court judges are showing as they wait for her to appear before them. Why not? They too want their fifteen minutes of fame!
How long would it take for the DAP leadership to realize that this is not about religious freedom or even about the freedom of the few non-Malay converts to re-convert to the religion of their birth? What ‘social contract’? The only contract is the one UMNO has signed with its members and supporters.
The Old Man just like the Fat Lady has been blamed for many things. But that guy who goes by the name of Mahathir (after decades of being in power many Malaysian children bear his name) has to take the blame for the rising tide of narrow Malay nationalism and religious fanaticism which without him has been allowed to have a life of their own. What’s with the sitting Prime Minister sleep walking and all! Malaysia has always been an Islam state in the minds of the Malays and will remain so.
With Kit’s aggressive public stand on the issue of religious freedom, the dye has been cast, and the lines have been drawn in the sand.
Not UMNO nor KeAdilan will let the matter pass. Which matter and what matter? The matter about the constitutional protection given to their religion, about the Malays wanting to continue living peacefully and undisturbed as Malays and Muslims and not have their sometimes-Muslim-at times-secular life styles be taken away. That too is ‘freedom’ of religion! The other is the politicians’ version of the ‘freedom’ of religion. Malays make up the majority of the country’s population and the electorate and it does not take a Malay astronaut among them to realize what a potential that this represents in terms of votes during any general elections.
With the Lina Joy decision, UMNO has drawn their battle lines and DAP finds itself on the opposite side of the line they themselves have drawn in the sands. KeAdilan finds itself dead in the water.
Should the DAP have taken a deep breath and suck it in as we say and walk away? How many votes would it have lost? I say “Suck it inâ€Â.
“This is because the Lina Joy case has shattered confidence in the constitutional guarantees on freedom of religion, the Constitution as the supreme law of the land and above all, the sacred Merdeka “Social Contract†underlying the Constitution that Malaysia is a secular nation with Islam as the official religion but not an Islamic state.†Kit
The Lina Joy Case is not about religious freedom and constitutional guarantees and safeguards. It is about a people who feel threatened in their way of life.
well, i’m threatened by the very thuggery of BN.
Definitely, no vote for BN for the next election.
The people up there are not so much into social contract. They’re more into money pockets. Pocketing as much as they can. When bad times comes, their money is the first to flee malaysia. And they would follow next to their safe-havens built in Australia, Europe and London.
I m truly surprised that not only Malaysians are concerned about this case, since morning, the verdict of Lina Joy has been posted by some concerned people in Yahoo Answers . Wow, Malaysia again famous for the wrong reason. Well, looking at the brighter side, Malaysia just dont care good or bad publicity, as
long as there is one! Msia Boleh!
You know what, BN gov will say that the judiciary is independent and even TI survey has shown that it is not very corrupt i.e. rank no. 9 in the world out of 62 surveyed.
We may be in contemp of court if we continue to question their judgement!!!
Undergrad2,
It is not the matter of elope, is the matter of own principle, integrity and freedom of religion.
Undergrad2 said:
“The Lina Joy Case is not about religious freedom and constitutional guarantees and safeguards. It is about a people who feel threatened in their way of life.”
Care to elaborate on this statement of yours? When did Lina Joy’s choice of religion “threaten” Muslims?
Undergrad2
Why should ppl start running away once they are problem because it is every malaysian’s right whether to stay or chose to migrate. I still think Lina is a true hero that fight till the end.
As far as religion is concerned, one must really respect the people of Turkey.
It is a Muslim country but the majority of the people and even the army are fiercely secular.
They will not have it any other way!
When the PM, whom they suspected to be strongly pro Muslim submitted his candidacy, the whole country revolted and the army gave them very strong backing.
The PM eventually had to cancel his application.
That is the country we should emulate.
State is state. Religion is religion.
Never shall the twain merge!
its ok lina…watever decision they hv made wont make any changes in ur belief of ur conversion to other religion.u hv ur very own reasons to denounce islam.its this government thats too obvious in protecting its own skin in the name of religion.wat more to say whn they are so fearful in this inter faith religion issue.i dun understand wat the ‘sai’ this government is making a fuss abt this religion issue.democracy my foot.the government should knw damn well how fair and transparent the governance is.u cant force someone into believing wat they dun believe in especially whn they hv no faith in it.yes…its just like this government is forcing its hidden agenda against the will of the people in this country.thrs a big difference between an islamic state and a muslim country.the government must be told nvr to make islam as a big issue in this country.islam is nothing…christianity is nothing….buddhist is nothing and so are the other religions of the world…if we hv a stinking group of individuals in the government taking advantage and making a big fuss of it and pushing people around them for the sake of religion.its stupid.it shows dat they dun even knw wat they hv been learning fr their own religion.
Yes, and for those of you guys out there who try to lean on the liberal approach regarding religious freedom for support in the hope of winning others to your view, read on:
‘A major area of disagreement is freedom of religion. The Qur’an vigorously denounces those who renounce Islam, for the “Devil has seduced them†away from the true faith (67:25). Abu Bakr, and jurists since then, condemned secession from Islam (ridda) as doubly heinous: it is not only a violation of the compact of submission, but also a breach of contract with Allah’s representatives on earth. It is an offence both against God and the state, it is both apostasy and treason. Far form having the right to become non-Moslem, the Moslem faces the death penalty as a sanction for such a charge.â€Â
A breach of contract with Allah’s representatives on earth! UMNO and the Supreme Council members??
What underlying ‘social contract’?
I give Lina Joy for her courage and perseverance.. despite of facing a huge wall in front of her….
Not many people dare to express her faith and religion..
look outside the court.. hundred’s people wait out side( media, laywers) just to see the verdict.. what happen next if her appeal was succesfull. wow just imagine…
OPEN LETTER TO LINA JOY
Dear Lina,
A better life awaits you as an asylum seeker.
So if you find thousands of religious fanatics chasing you in the streets tomorrow, please make your way to the U.S. Embassy and ask for asylum. They cannot turn you away.
The United States is a contracting party to the 1951 U.N. Convention regarding refugees.
Whatever you do, do not make your way to Lim Kit Siang’s house.
Yours sincerely,
Always an undergrad to you.
* Malaysia’s Prime Minister Badawi, that God will direct his heart
(Proverbs 21:1) away from the intimidating, threatening voices
of Islamists towards the voices of justice, equality and
religious liberty, filling him with the moral conviction and
courage needed to stand for what is right.
* the Federal Court judges still deliberating over Lina Joy’s
appeal; may God direct their hearts (Proverbs 21:1) towards a
just outcome enabling all Malaysians to enjoy their
constitutionally guaranteed, fundamental human right of
religious freedom.
* God to fill the Malaysian Church with peace and grace amidst
hostility, as well as zeal and courage amidst a mission field;
may God raise up Christian voices and leaders to be both lights
and signposts to a society in transition.
* God to work in all things for the good of those in Malaysia who
love the Lord and have been called according to his purpose
(Romans 8:28), so that by whatever means he ordains, Malaysians will come to see the Lord and embrace him as their only Saviour.
The above prayers last year by members of the World Evangelical Alliance obviously failed to receive God’s attention.
Some initial thoughts and impressions as I drink my cow’s milk:
1. Civil court judges, rightfully or wrongfully, are now very ready and quickly, to cede authority and jurisdiction to the Sharia courts. Is this leading to civil courts becoming more and more inferior and subservient to the Sharia courts in the years to come?
2. Are Muslim civil judges appearing to be fearful of deciding against their religion perhaps out of fear of repercussions from the religious elements?
3. Why do non-Muslims perceive that they will not get any justice from the Sharia court? Will the Sharia court be fair or be biased against non-Muslims in Islamic matters?
4. Will Nyonya Tahir now be seen as a Muslim if the Sharia Court did not approve her apostasy? Living a life as a Buddhist, Christian or Hindu or making a statutory declaration appears to be not enough. The Sharia Court must approve your apostasy. Do you think they will ever approve? Or send you for rehabilitation, reeducation or whatever at their summer camp!
5. The decision confirms that if you are a Malay, you will always be a Muslim. No way out folks. But there are Malays in Indonesia, Thailand and the Philippines who are Hindus, Buddhists and Christians. Only in Bolehland its TAK BOLEH. Are we progressive or backward?
6. Is the decision in the spirit of and comply with Islam Hadhari?
7. Will any attempt to define clearly the ambits and powers of the civil and sharia courts and perhaps to amend the Constitution see the light of day? Once given its difficult to amend or take away.
8. Unscruplous people will now use Islam to get their way or revenge e.g. in child custody cases when civil marriages go wrong.
9. Will the religious authorities now throw their weight around and dare anyone challenge them?
10. Are non-Muslims now doomed to have to go to the Sharia Courts for “justice” even if they do not recognise the court?
11. Why does Bolehland need to legislate religion when other muslim countries do not? Why is there the fear that thousands if not millions will leave Islam if freedom to leave is made easy?
12. Will we ever have Solomon’s justice instead of Suleiman’s justice?
“The Federal Court 2-1 majority decision rejecting Lina Joy’s appeal marks a tectonic shift of Malaysia in moving further and further away from the Merdeka “Social Contract†founding principles of nation-building agreed by the forefathers of the major communities on the attainment of independent nationhood.” Kit
The DAP just doesn’t get it!
The only ‘social contract’ is between the Malays who would have supported the IMP and those who supported UMNO.
Everyday, this government of ours are showing to us their true colours. On one hand, they are deceiving us to believe that they are fair to all malaysians irrespective of race, free from corruption , no discrimination, practising religions freedom. On the other hand what we are seeing are the opposite. Buildings are falling apart due to corruption, sexism due to the remarks by the bocor MPs, discrimination of non-bumis due to NEP, fanaticism and racism by the insensitive UMNO members during the last UMNO assembly and now the abuse of one’s religion’s freedom. This is because most of the the key positions in this country are occupied by the fanatics and the extremists. The scary parts is we are not moving towards developed nations in 2020 but modern TALIBAN’S nation.
Who dares to stand up when the whole world condemning you and your family members and friends disown you?
Lina is someone who dare to stand up and fights not for herself but for many out there who suffer silently due to some religious groups that forcing one to accept own faith and believe. Malaysia indeed need people like Lina who dare to stand up for own faith and believe, not those who criticize blindly without basis and understanding.
The truth shall prevail someday.
Hellooooo!
PM just advised we do not get emotional over the verdict!! But he forgot to advise those cahoots outside the court shouting threatening statements as the verdict was being read….. Who is emotional? Too often, when decisons go ‘their’ way, we should not be emotional. but if decisons go ‘the other’ way, we are reminded of May 13… susmariosep
Sheriff Singh, that was a brilliant post that you did.. Nothing that is said that is not true… Thanks, and I have to start Drinking cow’s milk now….
Jeffrey QC,
Please post the dissenting judgment for the Lina Joy case. The dissenting judgment may one day be the majority judgment.
As per Dr Chandra Muzaffar, Islam does not bar anyone from leaving the religion. The phenomenon we are seeing in Malaysia is not a problem created by Islam, but a political problem created by UMNO. As Mahathir himself said, Muslims can leave the religion but they will have to forsake their Bumiputra status and rights. That is fine as long as the individual has the right and freedom to choose what he believes in. The next time Badawi gives a speech on religious freedom in Malaysia and all the hype on Islam Hadari, he should be pelted with rotten eggs and tomatoes! He’s the biggest hypocrite and liar in Malaysia! Islam Hadari is repressive, cruel, corrupt and retrogressive. Those Islamic detention centers in Malaysia, where the government incarcerates and torture Muslims who want to convert out of Islam, must be stopped. Let the whole world know that Malaysia does not practise religious freedom and basic human rights. Let the whole world know of the UMNO’s cruelty and crimes againt humanity. May Allah punish those who twist and turn his Holy Word for their own personal and political gains.
Does this means that one have no individual rights if one belongs to a certain religion or has certain skin colour? In this modern world, why would an intellectually capable and a better person let others dictate his/her life?
Does this proves that certain group of individuals cannot be trusted at all? Even constitution seems to worth no more than the price of the paper it is printed on. What more to say?
Quo Vadis?
Belakang dan bawah pergi
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_GEN_MALAYSIA_CHRISTIAN_CONVERT_ASOL-?SITE=ASIAONE&SECTION=SOUTHEAST&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2007-05-31-08-53-45
May 31, 8:53 AM EDT
Malaysian woman hints she may emigrate after losing fight to become legal Christian
By EILEEN NG
Associated Press Writer
KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia (AP) — A woman who lost a court battle to change her religion from Islam to Christianity suggested she might leave Malaysia rather than stay without the right to practice the religion of her choice, her lawyer said Thursday.
The Federal Court, Malaysia’s highest civil court, on Wednesday rejected Lina Joy’s appeal to have the word “Islam” stricken from her national identity card.
The verdict was seen as a blow to religious freedom in the ethnically diverse country made up of Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus and Sikhs.
However, Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi defended the verdict, saying, “The court has decided. That’s all.” He also said the verdict does not reflect a widening of religious divide in the society, even though “the discussions have become more widespread than before.”
In a statement released through her lawyer, Joy said, “I am disappointed that the Federal Court is not able to vindicate a simple but important fundamental right that exists in all persons: namely, the right to believe in the religion of one’s choice.”
“The Federal Court has not only denied me that right, but (denied it) to all Malaysians who value fundamental freedoms,” she said.
In its verdict, the Federal Court said Joy, who was born to Muslim parents and began attending church in 1990, should seek permission to renounce Islam from Islamic Shariah courts.
Malaysia follows a dual justice system. The Shariah courts administer the personal affairs of Muslims – most of them the country’s majority ethnic Malays – while civil courts govern the minorities, mostly ethnic Chinese and Indians.
Joy, however, has refused to seek the Shariah court’s permission, saying she is a Christian and should not be bound by Islamic laws. If she continues to practice Christianity, she faces being charged with apostasy, which is punishable by a jail sentence and fine. She also has the option to leave the country.
Asked if she will take that option, Joy, 43, said in her statement: “It would be extremely difficult to exercise freedom of conscience in the present environment.” Benjamin Dawson, her lawyer, said the media are free to draw their conclusion from the statement.
But Prime Minster Abdullah told reporters that the verdict does not mean Islam is above the constitution.
“There is no such thing as above the constitution. There are set of laws that we have to follow. It is our constitution, that’s all. This court functions on the basis of the law,” he said.
Asked if the court verdict was politically motivated as some have suggested, he said, “They must have a hole in the head to say that. We never pressure the court to make political decisions.”
Joy, who was baptized in 1998, was successful in getting the National Registration Department to change her name to Lina Joy on her identity card. But the department refused to drop Muslim from the religion column of the card. A series of rejected appeals from 2000 onward brought her case to the Federal Court.
Joy’s case was seen as a test of religious freedom in Malaysia, and a benchmark for many other similar cases involving conflict between Islam and other religions.
The Council of Churches of Malaysia said Thursday in a statement that it viewed with “great regret and concern” the judgment against Joy.
“We believe that the constitutional provision in Article 11 which guarantees freedom of religion in our country has been severely violated,” the council’s president Thomas Philips Shastri said.
But the constitution is silent on which legal system has the final word in disputes such as Joy’s. In practice, the civil courts have accepted the unwritten superiority of the Shariah courts even though the constitution describes Malaysia as a secular state.
Rights group Suaram noted that three Muslims were jailed for three years in 2000 for renouncing Islam.
“As per Dr Chandra Muzaffar, Islam does not bar anyone from leaving the religion. The phenomenon we are seeing in Malaysia is not a problem created by Islam, but a political problem created by UMNO.†Negarawan
What have you got to say to the Qur’anic verse:
“A major area of disagreement is freedom of religion. The Qur’an vigorously denounces those who renounce Islam, for the “Devil has seduced them†away from the true faith (67:25). Abu Bakr, and jurists since then, condemned secession from Islam (ridda) as doubly heinous: it is not only a violation of the compact of submission, but also a breach of contract with Allah’s representatives on earth. It is an offence both against God and the state, it is both apostasy and treason. Far form having the right to become non-Moslem, the Moslem faces the death penalty as a sanction for such a charge.â€Â
..and DiaperHead’s comments posted earlier??
“PM advised we do not get emotional over the verdict but forgot to advise those cahoots outside the court shouting threatening statements…”
sasmaryosep, this is sophistry that can only be made by a (deleted) fellow.
i want to hear what MIC & MCA have got to say, they being the equal power sharing partners in BN.
“As Mahathir himself said, Muslims can leave the religion but they will have to forsake their Bumiputra status and rights. That is fine as long as the individual has the right and freedom to choose what he believes in.” Negarawan
Mahathir has politicized Islam in order to launch his political career in in the 80s. The country is now harvesting the seeds sowed earlier i.e the seeds of discord and religious intolerance.
MCA and MIC issuing their own statements on the Lina Joy case?? They will not dare touch the issue. If they do, the DAP will make mince meat out of their leaders.
i think Malaysia is the only country that defines a particular race (ie Malay) under its Constitution.
if i am not wroing, one of the criterias is, a Malay must be a Muslim.
So if that person is borned a Malay, his ancestors being Malays, one day he changes religion, what race has he turned to ?
Isnt the question of race concerning the biologically (if i am correct to use this word) arena ?
THinking about elections, I don’t really think voting for DAP is my best choice, but I’ll vote for them anyway. Why? Because I hear DAP is thinking about sleeping in bed with PAS again. Don’t DAP get it? It is not worth it.
If DAP continues with this, it just shows that there’s not much to fight for except for scraps. I’d be more happy to vote for DAP if they don’t sleep with parties that are idelogically opposed to the very things that secular DAP stand for.
BN, while without a real ideology except for racial power-sharing, is at least cohesive and consistent in their warped ways. That is the simple explanation for the last lanslide victory.
And really – what is the crying slogan for the opposition these days – “Deny 2/3rds” … I think you need to get some good publicists.
I want to vote for a party without a doubt. DAP, make us vote without a doubt, and I really don’t want to vote just to ‘deny 2/3rd’s.
No … not length, must be filter…
People! People! Stop whining, you’re not giving solutions. As much as ol Dr M was despised for his policies, he is right on one account recently, “A country deserves what the people vote for”.
We can argue that the judgment and the judges were not judging judiciously. The muslim judges saw the religious side, and the non-muslim one saw the complete opposite view. Some even say that Lina was a fool to bring this all the way up, and there’s even hope.
The good thing is that this has reached the highest court and is now ‘clarified’. If we feel so strongly about it, we can and must do something about it. Lina IMHO, was right to bring this up and fight all the way to the end despite what undergrad2 says. If only she brought this up way back earlier in the 60’s or even 70’s this might have turned out differently.
We now have clarified that: [continued next post…]
[…]
1. We got a sc rewed up constitution that contradicts itself.
2. That the definition of ‘fairness’ will always be in a warped sense.
3. Non-m uslims got a big problem if they continue to vote for subsistence and not ideals.
[found offending word I think … now the rest of the post…]
This has nothing to do with the civil courts being subservient to the Shariah. This is how the constitution was written and we know for sure that the consititution is fundamentally flawed for those who understand the concept of ‘fair’ and ‘just’ as in the blindfolded lady holding the tipping scale.
We have to work around these facts, and there’s one fact that we probably can work with – fact and judgment #2.
Article (8) says that all are equal before the law. We must argue that we need to be equalised since Muslims have far more restrictions that non-muslims when it comes to conversion of religion. Otherwise, Article (8) will be null and void because we have sub-laws that is making non-Muslims less restricted than muslims. Therefore all are not equal before the law.
Lawmakers must now push for it to be just as sufficiently difficult for people from other religions to exit their religion as Muslims have to face. To follow Article (8), the NRD must treat non-Muslims converting whether to Islam or other religions to produce some certificate of apostasy from the applicants former religious authority and/or from 2 family members of significance.
This would prevent cases of family members not knowing their own family member having converted to another religion – be it Islam or any other, and cause the controversies of last few cases of families being split up, dead bodies being snatched to be buried elsewhere etc.
The infrastructure for this don’t exist of course. But if you are serious about restoring some ‘fairness’, this is what you need to build and fight for. As I can recall, the other non-Muslim religions might not have explicit process and procedures to deal with apostacy. But hey, this is religion we are talking about. You can twist and turn the interpretation to come up with something!
Since our NRD does not recognise atheism, then we probably don’t have to deal with atheist cases … for now. For example, who do you require consent from for an atheist embracing a religion. Oh .. yeah – this doesn’t exist since our constituion says everyone (must?) believe in God.
This solution does imply losing your freedom to choose a religion freely, but we are only trying to be fair and on par with our Muslim friends and neighbours. Like it or not, this restriction will reduce the growing divide between those subjected to the Shariah and those who don’t.
IMHO, it shouldn’t also make Muslims feel threatened as it will not affect them, except those who want to be like the Borg.
But we are Malaysia, and this is a unique and perculiar country with a strange constitution. It is also the only country with 9 sultans rotating for the post of the king! So why not?
And for God’s sake, vote properly in the next election. I know you don’t like to hear this, but listen to Tun Mahathir!
Aiya, stupid filter for the word ‘scr ewed’ now s crew ed up the sequence of my posts! The post comment about how DAP should remarket itself should’ve appeared after the Lina comment! :-(
Hello Mango & Durian.
“Because I hear DAP is thinking about sleeping in bed with PAS again.â€Â
Yes. They call it “sleeping with the enemy’ – the remake of an old movie.
Why not? Infidelity is no big deal today. Just make sure you enter into an ante nuptial agreement. And don’t forget to use protection. I don’t mean the protection provided by the federal Constitution of 1957 but the rubber one.
[deleted]
TO undergrad2:
You usually leave well-thought-of comments, but in this instance, I have to disagree.
You maintain that there was no social contract, and that all is farce. Nevertheless, one cannot treat the constitution so lightly…it is the founding document that encompasses the type of country and society that our forefathers envisaged our country to be.
The failure of that vision is not due to the failings of the constitution (despite its imperfections) but due to the people who were entrusted to safeguard the integrity of the principles and ideals its expounded – in this case, our lawmakers, and to a larger extend, us, who voted them in.
We should never learn to become immune to injustice or play the game as it suits us – there are some things worth fighting for and I wholeheartedly back Lina Joy’s decision – she tried to preserve the fundamental principles enshrined in our constitution.
The ” just suck it up” mentality is one which has caused Malaysian’s downfall – it’s something I’ve been passionately fighting against in all my writings – the apathy and inertia of Malaysians in general, and in particular, the Chinese who accept the status quo and choose not to rock the boat as long they are successful. It is precisely this behaviour that has caused the extremists in our country to have gained such a foothold on the politics of our nation.
Hence, I respectfully disagree with your arguments.
Sorry people, SATAN ROCKS!!!!!
I LOVE SATAN….
SATAN… GIVE ME THE POWER….
SATAN IS THE KING.. THE LORD AND THE BEST OF THE BEST..
BESTEST IN THE WORLD…
YEAH… SATAN TOTALLY ROCKS…
YOU’LL LOVE SATAN TOO
May SATAN have mercy on you when you’re in HELL.
Our Muslim brothers and sisters’ faith in Islam must be extremely thin!
If UMO allow Muslims to change faith, guess all the 13 Millions of Muslims in Malaysia will immediately jump ship!
If above are not true, why UMO needs such a cruel way to control the Malays’ faith?
By the way, Indonesians are allowed to choose one’s religion when he or she turns 21 years old.
Can SATANIST be written on IC?
I wanna convert.
Islam is no longer just a religion but also a powerful political force in the world. The many troubled nations in the world are Islamic nations; Iraq, Afghanistan, Middle East, Indonesia and closer to home; Southern Thailand.
If Islam is the last message to mankind from Allah, then the previous messages should not be too far away from the truth as well. In fact, it should be as truthful as Islam itself.
Malaysia does not reject Christians. But the people with power reject the desires of Muslims to leave Islam. The Quran and all the other Islamic books
cease to have any authority the moment the person stops believing in its’ teachings. The problem comes from the Muslims themselves who are too rigid and refuse to think critically and logically beyond. Talk about a scientific, researching mind ! Islam does mention about people leaving Islam which means that since P. Mohd’s time, there were incidences of Muslims leaving Islam.
In developed countries, people will not ask you for your age, your sex and your religion. Those are discriminatory data.
It is men’s work that will not allow the erasure of the label Islam from the identity card. If things are so great, then it should have happen in split seconds and yet there is a drag of 6 years. Talk about great, what is so great in a yawn ?
A lot of people convert to Islam for the main reason of marriage. Some for financial reasons. Some for security reasons. Some like our Everest climbers for privileges, benefits and fame reasons. All the wrong reasons. Where is the correct reason that you convert because Islam is truth for you like Cat Stevens who become Yusuf Islam ? And when you discover that you get nothing from Islam, you wish to leave and that’s when you find that you cannot. Don’t you know anything about Islam before you convert ? Don’t you know you cannot leave this religion legally ? Don’t you know you are bound by men’s laws and politics ? Don’t you know you will be severely dealt with if you leave Islam ? Do you know how severe this punishment can be ?
Before I end, remember to get hold of a Quran in the English version and study it. Turn it into another book of law and help people who wish to embrace the truth.
It’s so sad that an innocent women has to leave her beloved country when the only “offense” she had done is to peacefully practise the religion of her choice & marry the man she loves.
About the hundreds [deleted] waiting outside the court for the verdict; do they think their actions are going to make their religion look good?
looks like people who are born a muslim in malaysia will have no freedom to choose other religious faith. this is worst than in indonesia.
Thank God, i am not born a muslim.
malaysia bodoh!
“By the way, Indonesians are allowed to choose one’s religion when he or she turns 21 years old.” Mendela
Yes. Not only can they follow a religion of their choice, Muslims marry Christians and each retains his or her religion. Their children then belong to a faith called Krislam! No joke!
Anyway, many malays in Malaysia have demonstrated how intolerant they are, and they have displayed their racist nature so blatantly. I don’t think Islam is all that because the muslims in Indonesia, Singapore, China are not like that. Certainly not in US or Europe. [deleted]
If our Court can classify a Christian as a Muslim, any thing is possible. We are not called Bolehland for nothing!
I’m now ashamed of being a Malaysian.
(IANAL) The judiciary has just fundamentally breached the constitution. Shouldn’t judges be held accountable if they clearly neglect the constitution? Aren’t they supposed to defend and enforce the law? Isn’t the constitution the highest law in the country?
Just think :
– her family has disowned her for converting to Christianity
– she lost her job, is jobless, unable to get employment
– she is now in hiding, fearing for her safety
– she’s a Christian but the religious fellows will probably come give her a muslim burial when the time comes
– and more
Everything is stacked against her. How much more must she suffer? Does she not have a place under the Malaysian sun? Is she not welcomed in her land of her birth? Can she petition the King for royal intervention?
Perhaps someone should set up a fund for her.
The silent, sleepy one must wake up and realise all is not well in Bodohland. It is getting extremely serious. Has he the courage and willingness to do something?
And what has the Tun who likes Nehru suits got to say about his handiwork of the late 80s?
What is the stand of Keadilan and PAS? Why are they silent?
Lina Joy, we pray for you.
Quo vadis? Hopefully not over the precipice.
With due respect to sharia law and without touching on religion..i would ponder on this and only this …is Lina a civilian? Yes Did she go to a Civil law court? Yes did she complain about a civil institution i.e NRD ? yes..
Then what the hell are these honourable judges talking about ?
The danger is not just one person. It concerns the world if those regimes concur with this Bolehland that such supremacy can ruled then the 3rd phase of the jihad rings true. I could have exaggerated…but only god knows!
“Can she petition the King for royal intervention?” Sheriff Singh
The Agong?? How stupid can you get? Better keep to drinking cow’s milk and ginger.
with leakings here and there, and now Lina Joy, i think GE is further pushed backed.
meanwhile, SMART tunnel will not collect TOL (i think) until GE held. so enjoy the tol free weeks / months
THe Islamic state does not differ from the communist state. Citizens in both must conform to its rigid rules usually at the cost of personal freedom as in Saudi Arabia…..we fought the communists only to sacrifice the country silently to another political social structure….islamisation…..what do you do…..
W.O or Wilson,
I believe you’re referring to this statement
“What ‘social contract’? The only contract is the one UMNO has signed with its members and supporters.â€Â
I made that posting in a lighter vein. Had you not taken it out of context you would have understood that what I meant to say was that the ‘social contract’ underlying our Federal Constitution of 1957 is being ignored or misunderstood or misrepresented and given its own interpretation to suit the aims and aspirations of UMNO.
UMNO seems to have their own version of the ‘social contract’ underlying the document referred to as the Federal Malaysian Constitution of 1957. My argument is that through the numerous amendments to the document which we refer to as the Federal Malaysian Constitution of 1957, the essence of the underlying ‘social contract’ is all but lost. It is no longer recognizable.
Can you tell me how many amendments have been passed since 1957? How many amendments have been made to the U.S. Constitution which is about 200 years old.
When I wrote “What ‘social contract’ ?†it is not to take lightly the ‘social contract’ underlying our Constitution of 1957. The intention is to draw readers’ attention to UMNO’s interpretation of it – or to some, the non-adherence to the underlying ‘social contract’.
Interpretation of certain constitutional provisions has been given narrow or wide meaning depending on one’s political affiliations. The thinking can get so convoluted that one doubts if it can withstand serious scrutiny. One such provision is Article 11 relating to freedom of religion.
“The †just suck it up†mentality is one which has caused Malaysian’s downfall – it’s something I’ve been passionately fighting against in all my writings..” W.O. Wilson
Again this is what happens when what is said is taken out of context.
When I say “DAP should just suck it in and walk away” I meant to draw attention of readers to the divisive nature of the issue of religious freedom is and has always been.
DAp needs Malay votes to win the GE. So it has to be sensitive to their feelings about their religion and not be seen to be too aggresive in fighting for the rights of the non-Malay Muslim converts who wish to return to the original faiths.
It is true it is about ideals and principles. But it is also about winning and winning the general elections.
“To suck it in” means to accept it as a foregone conclusion i.e. Malays will have to remain Muslims. Nothing can be done to change it. Nothing should. I am not referring to the rights of the non-Malays and the non-Muslims to practice their own religions.
On the other hand, how many cases of non-Malay converts wanting to return to their original faiths and have not been able to. There have been cases when this has been used to secure religious asylum in countries like New Zealand and Australia.
Finally the FC has decided. It didn’t have to wait that long to give its decision, though! The law is that people in the position of Lina Joy must get a certification of their conversion – the conversion is already a fact – from the Syariah Court.
The question is what guarantee is given by the government that people can make such an application for certification without loss of life and liberty to themselves? Lina Joy must make such an application. Her lawyers (perhaps Syariah court lawyers, now) will advise her of the possibility of affidavit evidence, given that it is not possible for her to be present personally, on security grounds.
Lina Joy must follow- up on the valiant attempts that she has made up to now by submitting to the jurisdiction of the Syariah Court with the proviso that she acts so under express guarantees as to her safety.
http://rantingsbymm.blogspot.com/2007/05/do-we-believe-in-quran.html
It starts off by stating “In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
[2:256]
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand- hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things.
So why is the Syariah court COMPELLING people who wants to opt out to continue in a faith they do not believe in anymore??
I hope this issue of religious rights in Malaysia, and the issue of incarceration and imprisonment of people wanting to convert of Islam, will gain international exposure and highlight. International pressure must be stepped up against the government of Malaysia to adhere to basic human rights and values, even if it means imposing sanctions!
It has! In 1999, the U.S. Department of State Profile on Malaysia (the Department issues one such report for every country every year) makes reference to “the penalty of death” for apostates, a policy followed by PAS.
Malaysia is a sovereign state and cannot be forced though it can be persuaded.
Quo vadis, a Latin phrase meaning “Where are you going?”
We’re going West – towards Middle East.
Islam came here centuries before 1957 Federal Constitution, its influence, gentle, non- obstrusive nor assertive, blending with local and other cultures and practices. Wayang Kulit, a part of our cultural heritage, as a visit to Museum Negara will testify, is traditionally based on the Hindu epics of the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. Where is it now? Then young Malay girls, with sarong wrapped around the breasts carried pails or earthenware pot to leaky communal pipes to take water. Now many wear head scarf and swim in public pools fully clothed. Then traditional greetings used to be “selamat pagi,†now the Arabic “assalam aleikumâ€Â.
Then, in the 1988 case of Che Omar Che Soh v Public Prosecutor the five-member Federal Court led by then Lord President Tun Salleh Abas Federal Court ruled that Malaysia is a secular nation, and not an Islamic country. Today in 2007 the same Federal Court led by Tun Ahmad Fairuz by majority ruled that Lina Joy could not leave Islam without Syariah Court’s certification, leaving out from purview Article 11(1) of the Federal Constitution that “Every person has the right to profess and practise his religion in which “every person†include a Malay by birth like Azlina Jailani aka Lina Joy.
The Prime Minister said that it was not a political decision : government did not exert pressure on the judges. Maybe. The three hundred or more gathered outside the Place of Justice, chanting prayers, might have. More than that, the pressure comes from everywhere – it is ubiquitous – the civil forces, the uniformed services, the religious establishment, the muslim group lobbies. The voices, calling for more and more Islamisation, have changed from subtle and soft, like a whisper, to stentorious with Islamic groups celebrating Lina Joy’s decision advising everyone that “those hoping for an opposite outcome to reconsider their position and to consider modifying their expectations to suit what is good and more sustainable considering our realitiesâ€Â……
The realities are that Political Islam has got a strong foothold here after quarter of a century of aggressive Islamisation programmes embarked upon by the Mahathir Administration to out-islamise PAS in competition for Malay-Muslim votes.
[Political Islam is a brand of the faith worldwide that is influenced by the Wahhabi and Salafi variant of the creed, a comparatively more rigid practice with many strictures insisting on the return to fundamental purity of original sacred texts and viewing the faith as all embracing on every aspect of one’s life and conduct. Wahhibism is a variant exported from and subsidized by the government of Saudi Arabia, distinct in its nature when religion is used by the state for political ends as what Ayatollah Khomeini achieved in the Iranian Revolution and used as a model by the Taliban mujaddin in Afghanistan. Unlike other traditions that accommodate dissenting views, the Wahhabis claim to possess an undebatable vision of “true or fundamantal Islam.†Such a vision of Islam holds the faith as an absolute truth, that all other religions are false and that there can be no meeting ground between a Muslim and a non-Muslim. Dialogue, debate or reasoning is not permissible under such a medieval version of Islam. Hence the conflicts in various flahpoints in the Middle East in which Political Islam and its adherants are engaged in a mortal conflict with the Modernity and Westernised values propagated by the Anglo Saxon Duo of US/UK representing the Judea-Christian traditions].
Fueling the new Islamic identity is the steady process of transformation as ideas, practices and finances flow from the Arab world. The transformation brings about conflicts – not only within Islam as to its correct interpretation and desirable way of life, but also often among Muslims and others in otherwise tolerant and harmonious plural societies like Malaysia and Indonesia, where Islam originally arrived, mostly peacefully, through trade centuries before our 1957 Constitution.
Fast forward 50 years thence after a proliferation of countless religious boarding schools (madrassas) buttressed by the return of many Islamic teachers and clerics from schools, colleges and universities in the Middle East, many of whom join the religious establishment, civil service, universities, indeed just about every sector, what realities do we now have?
To be sure, many of our political elites are modernised and Western Educated, some more given to the hedonistic than the ascetic streak. Yet they have to maintain strict control and power over the religion that is so much a religio-cultural identity of the main constitutency over which PAS competes. Any perceived slackening to uphold the tenets of the faith is perceived a minus for UMNO and a plus for PAS.
The PM speaks of Islam Hadari. It is to counter extremist interpretations. It is a good thing but how does it square against those around in overwhelming numbers whose agenda is Political Islam?
When speaking of our 1957 Constitution, the issue has always been whether we could keep the integrity of that Constitution intact 50 years later when realities have changed especially amongst the majority malay Muslims.
The controversies regarding the conversion cases of Moorthy Rayappan, Subashini, Marimuthu and Revathi and Benedict Gopal, Perak Mufti Harussani’s SMS episode , the restrictions on Article 11 forums, the postponement of international Muslim-Christian dialogue – the Building Bridges seminar – organized by the London office of the Archbishop of Canterbury, the reluctance to amend the lacunae in Article 121(1A) of the Federal Constitution and the Lina Joy decision have to be viewed from the context of these new realities signified by mobs outside pressing for their agenda.
Like it or not, we still however have a substantial Non malay muslim pupulation for whom the Constitution structured around 1957 realities is the important Social Contract!
But that proportion is fast dwindling as the young and educated choose to take flight by emigration than fight, whilst those who remain have very small families so as to concentrate available resources for maximisation of educational opportunties – also in preparation of flight!
And no matter how just and right is the Cause for civil liberties and the intregrity of the Constitution its proponents, by their education, training and disposition, are not prepared at all to demonstrate or become a “mob†so to speak to demand their agenda : so what kind of pressure can they exert compared to those presurring for the opposite agenda and prepared to do anything to uphold it? The 300 or more gathered outside the Palace of Justice awaiting the Lina Joy’s decision are testimony of this.
That in a nut shell is the sad story, the plight and dilemma of non malays in this country.
Who would want to further invest in Malaysia if this country is run by idiots, extremists and fanatics?
A single silly ruling on Lina alone would undo a RM 100 Millions worth of world wide advertisement to promote Malaysia as Truly Asia!
Truly my foot!
Interesting our “inverted” feudal norms : if you are rich and “suck up”, you maximise your chance of procuring the conferment of honorific titles supposedly engendering respect like Datuks and Tan Sri ship. If you stand your ground, refuse to suck up or refuse to submit to tyranny of majority on grounds of conscience, you get the title of being “stupid”! :)
All this explained why Muslims population grows so fast in Malaysia:
1. Immediate citizenship (Bumi status too) for illegals if they are Muslims
2. Inter-marriage between a Muslim and one with other faith, spouse and kids are all forcefully become Muslims.
3. Non-believers but turns into a Muslim to make life easier to do business, gain advantages, etc.
4. Non-Muslims turning into a Muslim in order to be able to get 4 wifes
5. To divorce easier
6. Mistake by Mycard officers when typing the religion column.
Guess in another 50 years, all Malaysians are Muslims!
I think Malaysiakini reported that Lina Joy would now likely emigrate with the one whom she intended to marry – after the exhausion of all legal avenues on the matter of her constitutional right to religion. As to why Lina Joy didn’t do it earlier, the following are her statements reported in 2 newspapers (NST & The Star):
New Straits Times
“I am disappointed that the Federal Court is not able to vindicate a simple but important fundamental right that exists in all persons, namely, the right to believe in religion of one’s choice, and equally important, the right to marry a person of one’s choice and to raise a family in the Malaysian context.
The Federal Court has not only denied me that rights but to all Malaysians who value fundamental freedoms.
I am hoping that my case would have made a difference to the development of constitutional issues in the plight of many others.
Asked if she would leave Malaysia for good, she said: It would be extremely difficult to exercise freedom of conscience in the present environment”.
Star
“Only God knows what is in my heart and I hope everyone will respect my conviction.”
I submit that nothing in her statements reflect that she has been a “fool”.
Another big reason why Muslims population grows so fast is Muslims normally do not practice family planning and birth controls.
This lead to Muslims are always relatively poorer than the Chinese.
This makes NEP a never ending policy.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/05/31/asia/AS-GEN-Malaysia-Christian-Convert.php
Joy said, “I am disappointed that the Federal Court is not able to vindicate a simple but important fundamental right that exists in all persons: namely, the right to believe in the religion of one’s choice. The Federal Court has not only denied me that right, but (denied it) to all Malaysians who value fundamental freedoms”….
Joy, however, has refused to seek the Shariah court’s permission, saying she is a Christian and should not be bound by Islamic laws. If she continues to practice Christianity, she faces being charged with apostasy, which is punishable by a jail sentence and fine. She also has the option to leave the country…
“We believe that the constitutional provision in Article 11 which guarantees freedom of religion in our country has been severely violated,” the council’s president Thomas Philips Shastri said. But the constitution is silent on which legal system has the final word in disputes such as Joy’s. In practice, the civil courts have accepted the unwritten superiority of the Shariah courts even though the constitution describes Malaysia as a secular state.
if the NRD made a mistake and typed ” Muslim” in my Mykad, and refused to change even after i wrote letters of protest to NRD, do i need to apply to the Shariah Court (even though I am not a Muslim), as the judge said in Lina Joy’s case, “this is concerning religious matters” ?
to be honest …
I think the only way to leave Islam if you are a Msian is to leave Msian citizenship behind as well …
Doing it any other way would get you:
a) Detention in some religious camp for brainwashing programme & psychological torture into staying back in the religion.
b) Delays and delays and more hassle at the Syariah courts
c) Threats and harassments from ‘religious’ groups
*shake head* …
Our local Muslims believe that the Syariah Court is the one and only COURT for them to settle their issues. If that is the case, then why are there many Muslims still seeking legal redress from the civil courts?
Hello, kawan, you can’t have the best of both worlds. It is either the Syariah Court for you or the Civil courts, or are you saying that you have no faith in the syariah courts that you need to seek remedies from the civil court. If that is the case, then why all the shouts about the virtues of the Syariah court? Razak Baginda who is involved in the Mongolian model murder case is having his case heard in the civil court. Why not the Syariah court, after all he is a Muslim? Therefore something tells me that the Syariah court is flawed, and I wish to stand corrected on this issue. Thanks.
The PM speaks of Islam Hadari. It is to counter extremist interpretations. It is a good thing but how does it square against those around in overwhelming numbers whose agenda is Political Islam? Jeffrey
By now we know Islam Hadhari is nothing sort of countering extremist elements among Muslim Malaysia, instead PM Abdullah’s statement further reinforced that the nature of Islam Hadhari was in line with the court decision on Lina Joy. The ruling has not breached the social contract directly but only contradicts it, the contradictions however are signalling that the numbers whose agenda is political Islam is in fact overwhelming, this confirmed our one way ticket to the middle east. Some Muslims has argued that Lina Joy should stick to proper channel, follow the guidelines and seek permission to denounce Islam at the Syariah Court quietly, get a certificate and strike off the word “Muslim” from her Mykad at the NRD. If the avenue for any Muslims to denounce Islam truly exists in the Syariah Court, that is where we should find the answer of where we all will really be going. My opinion is that DAP can only make a secular stand on the matter, but it is definitely not a subject to be politicize to gain votes, because the chances of losing more votes from the muslims will be far greater than gaining votes from the muslims.
What Jeffrey said about dwindling non-Muslim/Malay population is very true. However, it is something that I cannot undertand with them. I know for sure every non-Malay grumble about how they are discriminated against.
Yet, they still vote for UMNO lackies – MCA and MIC – “for the sake of stability”. Every year, their rights are eroded. Every year, they are not only 2nd class – but sliding to 3rd class residents.
They are just contented with getting 3 meals and signing away every right. But that’s how institutionalisation is. After all, the ancestors of the Indians and Chinese chose to run from their respective countries. To do that, you really must have a mentality to submit to the host country.
In short, I don’t really think the majority of Chinese and Indians do feel as citizens in the true sense. I mean, how do you feel like a citizen when you get better treatment as an immigrant in Canada or Slovenia than you do in your own country.
So at the end of the day, why do they keep whining? They voted for this.
Looking at the decision rejecting Lina Joy’s appeal, for the government of the day – could “harakiri” have already been performed?
The government is not taking us and moving forward in this 21st century instead, we are getting more and more talibanised by the day. The People’s basic fundamental rights have been greatly eroded.
SATANIST should be recognized as a religion.
Can anyone accompany me to put that in my IC?
The decision leading to Lina Joy’s appeal was not unexpected.
Three Judges – two muslims and one of the christian faith, what would one expect the two muslim judges to do even if they would have decided otherwise, bearing in mind the reaction from islamic extremists, and repercussion they’d have to endure?
I can’t help feeling that our government have unwittingly got themselves caught into a dangerous corner that is almost impossible to undo without causing an emotional reaction from the islamic diehards who think that they are guardians of muslim souls.
Over the years when islamic extremism rear its ugly head, the government decided to play along to appease those who could swing their votes to PAS. We are seeing the foolishness of that decision today. I am not surprised at the verdict. If the constitution is indeed upheld, Lina would have gotten her wish to be declared a Christian. It is not true that she change religion out of whim and fancy. Even if the learned judge is correct, who is he to be the judge of that decision? Religion is after the choice of an individual and the state cannot compel a citizen to be of a particular faith when he or she no longer believe. Just as when a couple has irreconciliable differences and seek a divorce in court, would the court refuse that application? It is the interpretation of the law that I believe the learned judges have erred.
It is true that the muslims are appeased by the decision, but the unhappiness will continue. There must be many muslims who want out of their faith and be christians, or buddhists or hindus. Can their rights be denied just because they did not have a choice of being born muslims? It seems like a death sentence to them and worst, their children and grandchildren are similarly trapped.
It the years to come, as our people become more open and demand their rights to make own choices and decisions, the recent judgement will return to haunt the judges who ruled that Lina Joy cannot leave her original faith and want that declaration properly stated in her MyKad. All she want is a life without state interference. Constitutionally she has broken no law.
To suggest that she find recourse from the Syariah Court is to ask her to surrender herself to be detained and fined or counseled. For once, I wish that people who want to play god realize that Lina has long ago left Islam. If she has had her doubts, her case would not have been heard. It seems that she indeed has found the truth in Christianity. That is something our muslims religious leaders fear, the truth of a religion that could be more right than Islam.
Where are our rights to worship a religion of our own choice? Non muslim (i.e. christians, buddhist, hindus, taoist etc….) can convert whenever and wherever they want as they give the full respect to one own believes and choice. WHY can’t Islam be the same. They just want to be different and make others hate them. Religion is just a very very personal believe and nobody in this world should force individual to a religion just because they are born to a family of a religion NOT of their own choice.
IF THEY CAN CHOOSE THEIR OWN LIFE PARTNER WHY ON EARTH THEY CANNOT CHOOSE THEIR OWN RELIGION AND DROP THE RELIGION THEY HAVE BORN INTO.
WHY the 2 judges who decline Lina’s application being a learned man cannot reasons out that religion is a VERY VERY PERSONAL MATTER and judgement should be granted as according to her believes and NOT do the Country’s political beleives.
ISLAMIC LEADERS WANTS QUALITY AND TRUE FOLLOWERS OR JUST QUANTITY FOLLOWERS (THE MORE THE MERRIER). It looks like the answer is : Islimic leaders want QUANTITY ONLY.
OMG, another Lina Joy(less) case coming up?
http://the-malaysian.blogspot.com/2007/06/malaysian-muslim-woman-pleads-for.html
“…//….If they can choose their own life partner why on earth they cannot choose their own religion and drop the religion they have born into??…..//….†– Irene.
There is no inconsistency there.
In the latter case, if one were allowed to choose to opt out, the Religion loses one less adherent. In the former case, when one chooses one’s own life partner, the Religion gains one additional adherent.
In politics, quality implies people will question and may not support the leaders. Quantity, without quality of the questioning kind, means more votes, more strength for such leaders.
I guess all other faith followers can take the Lina Joy court’s decision with an open-mind. Would the malaysian muslims take it with an open mind if the decision is otherwise?
something is totally wrong here. Well I guess they don’t have the chance to study all other religions. They all live like ” Katak Di bawah tempurong”
“peace be unto you”
Irene,
You must be very young or very native and immature!
“If they can choose their own life partners why on earth can they not choose their own religion and drop the religion” Irene
Because, dear Irene, there is a document called the Federal Constitution of Malaysia 1957 – if you are a Malay and a Muslim.
Judges do not make their own laws. They only interpret the laws passed by Parliament. If their reasoning is convoluted or appears to be convoluted there is such a thing called ‘appeal’ and the country’s Courts of Appeal. If the matter has come before the highest court of the land, the Federal Court, who concurs with the lower courts then you have exhausted your appeal.
In the past civil matters were allowed to go before the Privy Council in the U.K. Malaysia is a sovereign state and it is humiliating to have foreign courts decide our law and not our courts.
I think Lina Joy should be flogged and stoned to death.
he was burnt to death by the Catholic Church in Italy becos he supported what Copernicus said that the sun was the centre of the universe and not the earth.
The Catholic Church couldnt accept it.
That was around 1600.
Look at Europe today &
look at the Muslim countries today.
he was Giordano Bruno
Undergrad2 said:
” “To suck it in†means to accept it as a foregone conclusion i.e. Malays will have to remain Muslims. Nothing can be done to change it. Nothing should. I am not referring to the rights of the non-Malays and the non-Muslims to practice their own religions. ”
Malaysia is the only country in the world where the constituition itself (no less) says that a particular race has to belong to a particular religion. No other country follows this ruling. Not even Saudi Arabia (birthplace of Islam), or Indonesia (largest Muslim population).
True. But until Article 160(2) is revoked it will provide the legal basis, keeping Malays leaving the religion of their birth.
A Malay is by definition a Muslim. So if he ceases to be a Muslim he loses his ethnicity. That’s crap! Politicians are good at messing with everyone’s head when their own heads are not facing the right way!
“Asked if she would leave Malaysia for good, she said: It would be extremely difficult to exercise freedom of conscience in the present environmentâ€Â.
What does that mean? Does it mean she’s going after another cook?
Lina Joy just want a simple “yes”, but what appear to her is so difficult and confused. Our constitution grant everyone of us to choose our own religion, and what she want is just to become a good christian. Who else can she go for help, Australian?? Wake up Malaysians!
The pride of the Malay would will destroy themselves eventually and the country too.
I am beginning to feel AAB is like G.Bush..
I have nothing more to add here and many have spoken but not heard.
Can we have something from Mr.Lim whats on his mind for the future of DAP? Will DAP takes an active frontrow to form a government or as barkingdogs/watch dogs like they have claimed and will always be?
Will DAP change their role?
or forever a barking watch dog..
It is obvious that this is all done in the name of political expediency, to counter PAS raging urge of Islamisation. Islam is a beautiful religion but our Muslim politicians had made it is ugly for this will definitely create a crater to divide the races. All the superfluous efforts mooted by UMNO for unity and harmony will come to naught if they continue to make use of religion for their political agenda. It will be a sin and against humanity to force a religion down on somebody’s throat but some politicians choose to believe that political interests over rides everything.
At the same time any judge who considers his race and religion first and as a judge last is not worth two cents.
I look like malay luckily Im not muslim, otherwise my whole life will be regretable. I rather die than joining the religion. I use to tell them convert back to other religion before you want to become malaysian.